property tax and private estate management

Nanazolie

Hi

Is there any discount / appeal for people living in privately owned and managed estates who already pay for road maintenance / street lighting, litter management, etc?
I pay 1650 € a year, that includes our block insurance, cleaning and maintenance, but also "amenities", which is really what the county council does in other estates. Every time I ring DCC for an issue, be it litter, water, street lights, etc... they tell me to contact our management company, because "they have nothing to do with our estate".

Was that point even raised at the budget?

Thanks

Godge

No

Peanut2011

That is exactly the principle reason why I have not paid the HHC. When that is addressed they can talk to me.

Pete_Cavan

Nanazolie wrote: »

Hi

Is there any discount / appeal for people living in privately owned and managed estates who already pay for road maintenance / street lighting, litter management, etc?
I pay 1650 € a year, that includes our block insurance, cleaning and maintenance, but also "amenities", which is really what the county council does in other estates. Every time I ring DCC for an issue, be it litter, water, street lights, etc... they tell me to contact our management company, because "they have nothing to do with our estate".

Was that point even raised at the budget?

Thanks

Perhaps if you agree to never set foot outside your estate you might have a case, otherwise, every time you leave the estate you will be availing of council services for which you should contribute towards.

Manach

Perhaps the council can submitted an itemised bill for said services?

Nanazolie

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Perhaps if you agree to never set foot outside your estate you might have a case, otherwise, every time you leave the estate you will be availing of council services for which you should contribute towards.

I am not looking for an exemption. In fact, I think it's ok to pay a service charge and I'll be paying it, the same as I pay my private management fees. However, I find it a bit rich to be told that the county council doesn't want to have anything to do with our roads or landscaping or cleaning when I'll be paying the exact same rate as the people living on public estates.

I don't understand why there is not a dual rate like in some countries, where the first rate is calculated from your property value, and the other from the services available in your area. A person who lives in the country will obvisouly not have access to a public pool or a public library. Introduce a calculation that takes into account that the more people pay, the less big the fee, and it should be quite right and fair

Fat_Fingers

Nanazolie wrote: »

I don't understand why there is not a dual rate like in some countries, where the first rate is calculated from your property value, and the other from the services available in your area. A person who lives in the country will obvisouly not have access to a public pool or a public library. Introduce a calculation that takes into account that the more people pay, the less big the fee, and it should be quite right and fair

I think , someone please correct me if I’m wrong, people living in the countryside are already subsidised by taxpayers living in the towns/cities as cost of providing water/electricity/broadband/phone/bin collection and etc. ..is much higher than in higher populate areas and it would be impossible for them to pay true cost of these services.

mikemac1

If you are in the countryside then what services?

You pay into a water group scheme. Or if you are lucky enough to own land with potential for a well you pay for that to be sunk, you pay for the piping, the trench, the pump and the annual service.

You have your own septic tank and now you have to pay to get it inspected. Or at least Mattie McGrath was talking about a charge

You pay ESB Networks to connect you to the grid. Doesn't matter if the line is right beside you on the road, you pay. Costs at least 2,000 euro, if they have to cross fields to get to you if costs more.

Your broadband and phone is the Eircom line. The phone line is there already, you pay to get connected and then choose your service.
You may have a point about subsidization that all these lines have to be maintained but that's the same anywhere, if there are storms it will hit towns too

As for bin collection.
That was done privately in rural areas long before Joe Higgins and his stunt of going to jail over bin charges.
Cities were the last areas to charge, not the first

Been a long time since the council did anything with the road. If there is snow and ice the farmers do it as the milk lorry has to get down the road.

And Fat_Fingers, people in these areas pay for your street lights :pac:

View

Nanazolie wrote: »

Hi

Is there any discount / appeal for people living in privately owned and managed estates who already pay for road maintenance / street lighting, litter management, etc?
I pay 1650 € a year, that includes our block insurance, cleaning and maintenance, but also "amenities", which is really what the county council does in other estates. Every time I ring DCC for an issue, be it litter, water, street lights, etc... they tell me to contact our management company, because "they have nothing to do with our estate".

Was that point even raised at the budget?

Thanks

It should be pointed out that county/city councils had a deliberate policy of the creation of management companies over the last decade or so precisely because should a problem arise on a development, it is not their problem, rather the residents' problem. Usually, the existence of such a company was an official condition of the planning permission, hence it wasn't a case that new residents (or developers) had an option on the creation of such companies.

As a result, you have situations where older, sometimes very well-off, neighborhoods have the council provide them with street lighting, litter sweeping/collection (from street bins) etc. while newer, sometimes poor (i.e. any in negative equity) neighborhoods have to pay for these services out too their own pocket in management fees. And both the new and old neighborhoods are being taxed at the same rate for the local council to provide services to them even if they only provide a reduced, rather than full, level of services in the case of the new neighbourhoods.

Fat_Fingers

mikemac1 wrote: »

And Fat_Fingers, people in these areas pay for your street lights :pac:

lol .. AND i'm paying your YOUR red diesel
joking..

Uncle Ben

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Perhaps if you agree to never set foot outside your estate you might have a case, otherwise, every time you leave the estate you will be availing of council services for which you should contribute towards.

And what about Council tenants??

Victor

Nanazolie wrote: »

A person who lives in the country will obvisouly not have access to a public pool or a public library.

Are rural residents banned from pools and libraries?

Lantus

Nanazolie wrote: »

Hi

Is there any discount / appeal for people living in privately owned and managed estates who already pay for road maintenance / street lighting, litter management, etc?
I pay 1650 € a year, that includes our block insurance, cleaning and maintenance, but also "amenities", which is really what the county council does in other estates. Every time I ring DCC for an issue, be it litter, water, street lights, etc... they tell me to contact our management company, because "they have nothing to do with our estate".

Was that point even raised at the budget?

Thanks

I'm also in a private estate and people here raise similar queries.

The problem is that a 'link' has been made by the government from the household charge to a 'local service near you' delivered by your local coco.

The truth is that every tax cent goes into a big central pot and is then dished out based on budgets.

The rules haven't changed but the idea that if you dont pay your HHC then the street light outside your door will be turned off motivates people with fear to pay. It also gets them into endlessly pointless arguments about how they will only pay it if a hole in the road is fixed near them.

The lease documents for you apartment would of specifically mentioned it is to be privatley managed when you purchased. coco's rarely do any work these days on any front in local areas. The idea that they will maintain the lifts and building facade in a private estate is quite funny. Would you be happy to hand over a large chunk of the house sale price from them being in such good condition to the coco? Probably not.

I would suggest you engage with your management company. Understand the budgets and try to identify where savings can be made or improvements made. If you use an agent would another do a better job at a cheaper price?

In summary the HCC and Property tax are just taxes to raise the tax base. They go into one pot and the goverment could just of easily of said that prisons or pensions or health would suffer if people didn't pay. They picked something more likley to engender fear.

RandomName2

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Perhaps if you agree to never set foot outside your estate you might have a case, otherwise, every time you leave the estate you will be availing of council services for which you should contribute towards.

Never knew that international loans were considered to be council services.

Because, you know, if you were actually talking about council services being covered by the property tax, then road tax, parking charges and fines, litter fines, bin charges, etc etc would not exist, and it would be free to do something like... call out the fire brigade. We also wouldn't be looking down the barrel of water rates as well.

So yes OP, your services will be provided by you paying your management company, and will be in no way affected by paying the property tax.

However, you and your fellow residents may reconsider paying for such management. If your estate becomes run-down and neglected, and less commercially viable, your property tax will decrease.

Nanazolie

Victor wrote: »

Are rural residents banned from pools and libraries?

Of course not, and I'm sure you know exactly what I meant. They could just be too far from one.

Nanazolie

Lantus wrote: »

I'm also in a private estate and people here raise similar queries.

The problem is that a 'link' has been made by the government from the household charge to a 'local service near you' delivered by your local coco.

The truth is that every tax cent goes into a big central pot and is then dished out based on budgets.

The rules haven't changed but the idea that if you dont pay your HHC then the street light outside your door will be turned off motivates people with fear to pay. It also gets them into endlessly pointless arguments about how they will only pay it if a hole in the road is fixed near them.

The lease documents for you apartment would of specifically mentioned it is to be privatley managed when you purchased. coco's rarely do any work these days on any front in local areas. The idea that they will maintain the lifts and building facade in a private estate is quite funny. Would you be happy to hand over a large chunk of the house sale price from them being in such good condition to the coco? Probably not.

I would suggest you engage with your management company. Understand the budgets and try to identify where savings can be made or improvements made. If you use an agent would another do a better job at a cheaper price?

In summary the HCC and Property tax are just taxes to raise the tax base. They go into one pot and the goverment could just of easily of said that prisons or pensions or health would suffer if people didn't pay. They picked something more likley to engender fear.

This is never what I suggested. I'm talking about amenities, which are roads, street lights, landscaping, litter management. Funny enough, we were told that because we have an access to a DART station, we weren't considered a "private estate" as such. Yet the county council very conveniently uses this every time we call them.

bbam

Nanazolie wrote: »

Of course not, and I'm sure you know exactly what I meant. They could just be too far from one.

Too far?
That's a stupid excuse. If you live rurally you're going to be going into town in the car anyway. It's not like you use the car for work and shopping but can only walk to the library.
We live four miles from town and use the library loads, the girls are in weekly getting maybe six books each a time. It's a great facility and I have no problem supporting it with my taxes.
People who don't use the library probably just couldn't be arsed!

bbam

The problem with taxes like "property" and "motor" taxes is that people think its only for the services to my house or to keep the roads.
Taxes are a way of funding the state, because you pay a manager fee doesn't mean you don't pay your way. Same way I supply my own water and sewerage but will pay the tax anyway.

I sometimes think it would e simpler just to bump up the PAYE rates and create a 3rd band for earners above €100k, just like we had in the past and it worked fine. This way people wouldn't have any confusion and there would be no stupid exemptions for people in unfinished estates, people in unfinished estates still benifet from libraries and street lighting in towns, they should be paying, maybe a 25% discount for them.

Nanazolie

bbam wrote: »

Too far?
That's a stupid excuse. If you live rurally you're going to be going into town in the car anyway. It's not like you use the car for work and shopping but can only walk to the library.
We live four miles from town and use the library loads, the girls are in weekly getting maybe six books each a time. It's a great facility and I have no problem supporting it with my taxes.
People who don't use the library probably just couldn't be arsed!

I use the library on a weekly basis, but I live close enough to walk there. I have friends whose nearest "town" has a SuperValu but no public library. They drive there to shop, the closest library would be a good 30mn by car. They only drive to town every so often. The same goes for public swimming pools. I'm lucky that we have one (not public) nearby, but surely that is not the case for most people living in remote areas?
The point is, if you live in the country, you have direct acces to less public services. I for one would be 'happy' (ok, maybe not happy, but I do understand that services have to be paid for) to pay more for street lights, footpaths maintenance, etc, because obviously we have them and they require more maintenance in urban areas.

Nanazolie

bbam wrote: »

The problem with taxes like "property" and "motor" taxes is that people think its only for the services to my house or to keep the roads.
Taxes are a way of funding the state, because you pay a manager fee doesn't mean you don't pay your way. Same way I supply my own water and sewerage but will pay the tax anyway.

I sometimes think it would e simpler just to bump up the PAYE rates and create a 3rd band for earners above €100k, just like we had in the past and it worked fine. This way people wouldn't have any confusion and there would be no stupid exemptions for people in unfinished estates, people in unfinished estates still benifet from libraries and street lighting in towns, they should be paying, maybe a 25% discount for them.

This is exactly what my initial request was: not an exemption, but a discount.

frankosw

Isnt water and elctricity pumped into private estates using public facilities?

Are they not served by public roads and protected by gardai,served by hospitals and on or near national bus routes?

Its a bit much to expect not to pay for the upkeep of the country because you already pay a management fee.

In fact it is my belief that management fees are one of the greatest rip-offs we have seen in relation to the housing bubble.


I know of people paying "caretakers" 32 grand a year to cut back bushes and cut the lawn on a tiny apartment complex..or the "upkeep" of the building,the front of which has already gone rotten from the action of rainwater.

They were also promised private security guards and round-the-clock emergency tradesman facilities etc...yeah right.

Go to one of the forums like castleforbes and see the trouble they've been having.

Lambsbread

I actually queried this point before with my local Fine Gael representative (Eoghan Murphy) and he agreed with it on principal and said it would be raised in the Dáil, but I never heard back.

I support the idea of paying for local services but there were two objections I have to it:

• The occupier not the owner should pay the charge
• People that pay management fees should pay a lower property charge

In the end the property tax is just another way to raise revenue for the government and not really a fund for local services. I do not think the government really cares how fair it is or who pays it as long as the money comes in.

Gumbo

Mjmca wrote: »

You should be able to receive a tax rebate on a portion of your management fee - service charge. Contact them and ask them how much was paid for waste management and what proportion of your service charge went towards waste management / collection.

That tax rebate is closed now IIRC.
Also, only works for apartments, as houses will have the standard black/green/brown bins and pay accordinally for them.

Lantus

Nanazolie wrote: »

This is never what I suggested. I'm talking about amenities, which are roads, street lights, landscaping, litter management. Funny enough, we were told that because we have an access to a DART station, we weren't considered a "private estate" as such. Yet the county council very conveniently uses this every time we call them.

It really depends on your specific circumstances and the conditions of planning. In general the roads, street lights and sewers will be maintained by the local coco once the estate taken in charge, even if it is a private estate.

HOWEVER! This may not be the case if it is a fully gated development. Often once past the gate all of these services are the remit of the management company and not the local coco.

Landscaping is almost never provided by the coco and neither are bins. Proximity to a DART station is usually irrelevant. What you really need is the contract lease document you signed when you bought the property. It will outline the services you pay for and how. The company's articles of association available on the CRO site may also shed some light but these are just often quite generic.

The conditions of planning available from your local office may also contain relevant information. The reading of all three to best understand what services are part of your service fee and what are part of the local authority are needed.

If the developer still owns the 'common areas' including the building then welcome to another grey area where the provision of services may be in his remit or yours (the OMC) depending on the lease documents and planning conditions.

WillieFlynn

mikemac1 wrote: »

If you are in the countryside then what services?

You pay into a water group scheme. Or if you are lucky enough to own land with potential for a well you pay for that to be sunk, you pay for the piping, the trench, the pump and the annual service.

Lots of people in the countryside get piped water, just like urban areas.

mikemac1 wrote: »

You have your own septic tank and now you have to pay to get it inspected. Or at least Mattie McGrath was talking about a charge

But people in urban areas paid through building development levies, for sewage infastructure, etc.

mikemac1 wrote: »

You pay ESB Networks to connect you to the grid. Doesn't matter if the line is right beside you on the road, you pay. Costs at least 2,000 euro, if they have to cross fields to get to you if costs more.

Your broadband and phone is the Eircom line. The phone line is there already, you pay to get connected and then choose your service.
You may have a point about subsidization that all these lines have to be maintained but that's the same anywhere, if there are storms it will hit towns too

The situation is the exact same in urban areas.

mikemac1 wrote: »

As for bin collection.
That was done privately in rural areas long before Joe Higgins and his stunt of going to jail over bin charges.
Cities were the last areas to charge, not the first

Depends on where you are in the country.

mikemac1 wrote: »

Been a long time since the council did anything with the road. If there is snow and ice the farmers do it as the milk lorry has to get down the road.

This is one of the few areas where urban dwellers are better off.

Using government figures for this year, I calculated that Leitrim county council are getting nearly five times more money per head of population than Fingal county council, from the governments local authority fund.

Based on this local tax should be higher in Leitrim rather than Dublin.....

WillieFlynn

With the property tax we are being told it is for local services. Therefore it follows that all money collected in a local authority area should stay there and not be shared with other authorities.

The tax is either local or not !!!