Duchess of Cambridge Hospital Prank nurse commits suicide

Rasheed

green123 wrote: »

do you understand what happened ?

the nurse who committed suicide just answered the phone and then passed the call to another nurse.

it was another nurse who gave out information. this other nurse has not committed suicide.

the palace and the hospital have both said that neither nurses were facing any consequences.

it seems like one of the nurses drastically overreacted to a trivial situation, the other nurse seems to be coping fine - what the radio station done doesnt seem to be bothering her so much

How do you know? Nobody knows what pressure was put on them nurses. The first nurse that put the call through obviously made it clear to the second nurse who she thought was on the phone. Perhaps she felt more to blame than the other nurse. We just don't know.

green123

sashafierce wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

exactly, there must have been. so the radio station cant be blamed for that can they ?

there was 2 nurses who spoke on the phone. from your post above it seems like you thought that the nurse who committed suicide gave out personal information - she didnt. it was the other nurse who gave out the info.

thomasj

the hospital has protested to the owners of the radio station
taken from http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20650721

"King Edward VII's Hospital cares for sick people, and it was extremely foolish of your presenters even to consider trying to lie their way through to one of our patients, let alone actually make the call," Lord Glenarthur wrote.

"Then to discover that, not only had this happened, but that the call had been pre-recorded and the decision to transmit approved by your station's management, was truly appalling."

Lord Glenarthur added: "The immediate consequence of these premeditated and ill-considered actions was the humiliation of two dedicated and caring nurses who were simply doing their job tending to their patients.

"The longer term consequence has been reported around the world and is, frankly, tragic beyond words.

"I appreciate that you cannot undo the damage which has been done but I would urge you to take steps to ensure that such an incident could never be repeated."

Da Shins Kelly

I don't understand why people are getting so defensive about the radio station. Even without the suicide, what they did was completely reprehensible, and it wasn't the first time they did something like this. They should be taken off the air regardless.

averageperson

I think we have to distinguish between old-fashioned radio prank calls and the audio or video clips that go viral nowadays on the net. It must have been very stressful for the nurse to have made this mistake and find herself at the centre of so much attention. Tragically, she has taken her own life and if this prank was the key factor in doing so, one can only lament that she didn't take time to allow the dust to settle. That, however, is easier said than done - who knows what pressure was exerted on her at work for her lapse of judgement? Or how much media attention was she enduring? And what the consequences of this would have been for her career?
Of course, I know - it was all just a joke. I myself found it mildly amusing when I saw it. Shouldn't they have asked her permission before broadcasting it though? Or have we no right to privacy?

green123

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

I don't understand why people are getting so defensive about the radio station. Even without the suicide, what they did was completely reprehensible, and it wasn't the first time they did something like this. They should be taken off the air regardless.

because it is not the radio stations fault.

it is not the radio stations fault that the nurse reacted in such an extreme way to such a trivial situation.

Da Shins Kelly

green123 wrote: »

because it is not the radio stations fault.

it is not the radio stations fault that the nurse reacted in such an extreme way to such a trivial situation.

Of course they weren't to know that that's how she would react, and it's an extreme reaction, but there's nothing trivial about prank calling a hospital and wasting people's time as well as using deception to try and find out confidential information about a patient. In fact, I'd say that's a crime.

Curly Judge

averageperson wrote: »

I think we have to distinguish between old-fashioned radio prank calls and the audio or video clips that go viral nowadays on the net. It must have been very stressful for the nurse to have made this mistake and find herself at the centre of so much attention. Tragically, she has taken her own life and if this prank was the key factor in doing so, one can only lament that she didn't take time to allow the dust to settle. That, however, is easier said than done - who knows what pressure was exerted on her at work for her lapse of judgement? Or how much media attention was she enduring? And what the consequences of this would have been for her career?
Of course, I know - it was all just a joke. I myself found it mildly amusing when I saw it. Shouldn't they have asked her permission before broadcasting it though? Or have we no right to privacy?

It would appear not.
Privacy and dignity mean nothing when the press wolf-pack allow themselves to be whipped into a feeding frenzy.
All norms of civilization and fair play are set at naught when these people sniff out a story with the potential to increase the moolah in their coffers.
Their behavior is the only phenomenon which has ever caused me to have any doubts about the capitalist system.
A Laissez-faire free for all, and don't worry too much about the casualties.
If challenged they whip out the tired old mantra of People's right to know and Freedom of the Press.

Mardy Bum

green123 wrote: »

because it is not the radio stations fault.

it is not the radio stations fault that the nurse reacted in such an extreme way to such a trivial situation.

The fact that the radio station has a history for monumental fuck ups they should have examined their penchant for unethical practices and make a considerate judgement about their acts. They seemed to have missed this point.

lola85

RIP but don't think they can be held accountable. Bad joke and hopefully lesson learned

lola85

RIP but don't think they can be held accountable. Bad joke and hopefully lesson learned

steve9859

green123 wrote: »

because it is not the radio stations fault.

it is not the radio stations fault that the nurse reacted in such an extreme way to such a trivial situation.

it is their fault. Under Australian law (as in most countries) the broadcaster has to get permission of the person to put the recording of the prank on air (see story on sydney morning herald website). As this was international, the law did not apply, and they decided to not bother their arse doing the right thing and calling her up to ask her permission. Instead they ended up flooding social media with it.

They did not apply their own domestic good practice and do the right thing, and therefore deserve to be sanctioned

green123

steve9859 wrote: »

it is their fault. Under Australian law (as in most countries) the broadcaster has to get permission of the person to put the recording of the prank on air (see story on sydney morning herald website). As this was international, the law did not apply, and they decided to not bother their arse doing the right thing and calling her up to ask her permission. Instead they ended up flooding social media with it.

They did not apply their own domestic good practice and do the right thing, and therefore deserve to be sanctioned

where are you reading that ?

i dont think it is the law in most countries. prank calls happen here in ireland and are broadcast without permission. even tv pranks get broadcast without permission.

in the first story i see on the sydney morning herald the boss of the radio station and their lawyers dont think they have broken any law.

"We're very confident that we haven’t done anything illegal," he said. The prank call was pre-recorded and vetted by lawyers before being broadcast.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/national/universal-uproar-2day-fm-in-eye-of-storm-20121208-2b2cm.html#ixzz2EVEKIwVN

Judgement Day

dd972 wrote: »

If we lived in a more sane and rational world where the UK monarchy were not corporate media uber-celebs, then the prank might not even have taken place and the nurse may not have been driven to suicide.

The Aussie radio station referred to it as ''the prank the world is talking about'', really ? There's people in China or Mexico who've never heard of Wills & Kate and there's people in the UK who couldn't give a rats arse about them either.

What a bizarre take on the whole sorry saga - it was all Wills & Kate's fault. No further comment needed. :rolleyes:

Raiser

Carlos_Ray wrote: »

Maybe people should take a look at the management in the hospital and their reaction to it, and the nurse's involvement, if they want to find the real cause of the suicide.

This was foremost in my mind too, I can just imagine some small-time middle management cretin(s) lining her up as a scapegoat and flexing their bureaucratic muscles in the absence of any intellectual might....

steve9859

green123 wrote: »

where are you reading that ?

i dont think it is the law in most countries. prank calls happen here in ireland and are broadcast without permission. even tv pranks get broadcast without permission.

in the first story i see on the sydney morning herald the boss of the radio station and their lawyers dont think they have broken any law.

"We're very confident that we haven’t done anything illegal," he said. The prank call was pre-recorded and vetted by lawyers before being broadcast.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/national/universal-uproar-2day-fm-in-eye-of-storm-20121208-2b2cm.html#ixzz2EVEKIwVN

Can't post a link because on my pad, and it's an app. The discussion re. Legal position and accepted practice is in the 'live updates'' section posted around 1pm.

...the call breaks the Australian Communications and Media Authority (ACMA) Commercial Radio Code of Practice ( September 2011) which states:

“A licensee must not broadcast the words of an identifiable person unless:

a)   That person has been informed in advance or a reasonable person would be aware that the words may be broadcast

b)   In the case of words which have been recorded without the knowledge of that person, that person has subsequently, but prior to the broadcast, expressed consent to the broadcast of their words.”

They go on to say how they can ignore those rules as is an international call. So their lawyers are correct. Its not law, but it is a code of practice (and regulators generally don't like it when organizations break their industry's code of practice). It seems to me to be out of order for them to disregard what they normally do just because they're talking to someone across the world. It's the social media aspect of it that has come back to bite them in the arse....distance doesn't matter any more.

It stands to reason that you can't just record someone identifiable and then broadcast it without permission, especially when you're taking the piss!

sashafierce

This post has been deleted.

dd972

Judgement Day wrote: »

What a bizarre take on the whole sorry saga - it was all Wills & Kate's fault. No further comment needed. :rolleyes:

How was I making it Will and Kate's fault, the point I was making is that if the world was a bit more circumspect about institutions such as monarchies and didn't deify them we could be spared media frenzies whether it's Pap's chasing Princess Diana in Paris or a couple of saps making these types of prank calls.

The British monarchy should be no more newsworthy than the Belgian one.

Curly Judge

dd972 wrote: »

How was I making it Will and Kate's fault, the point I was making is that if the world was a bit more circumspect about institutions such as monarchies and didn't deify them we could be spared media frenzies whether it's Pap's chasing Princess Diana in Paris or a couple of saps making these types of prank calls.

The British monarchy should be no more newsworthy than the Belgian one.

I'll give them a ring in the morning and tell them to desist from being popular.
:rolleyes:

Vicar in a tutu

Sad but I dont think the DJ's should be held responsible, I'm sure the last thing they expected was for her to kill herself, They probably make loads of prank calls every week and im sure it's never resulted in suicide. The way the media are behaving towards them I wouldnt be surprised if there was another suicide.

Ken.

Just back from the shop and i see the front page of the star (i think) is carrying a story about the female d.j. involved is now on suicide watch in Sydney.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Usually with a prank call you ring back to get the victim's clearance to air. I spent time with Tipp Fm in TY clearing soundboard prank calls, I never had a person refuse permission to air.

annettea

oh my its no ones fault.. Your one was obviously going through a hard time anyway, if its anyones fault its her own. No one gave her an ultimatum. And i wouldnt say it was even over the call as all she did was put them through to another nurse. That nurse should have copped on like, fake dogs in the background, a big hussle and bussle that reminded me of puppets, unbelievably bad accents and she was talking to them!! The one that died only had a couple secs conversation.
Im sorry but that prank was hilarious and ye all would think so too if ur one didnt go off and kill herself.
Nothing got to do with the djs they were doing there job , lots of radio station in ireland do pranks. And what media wouldnt have tried something like this, hello they put naked pics of kate and harry all over the papers u dont see the photographers go kill themselves!
The poor woman was probably going through a hard time anyway and was thinking of doing this for some time. No one should be held accountable for this. And this is my pinion.

amtc

I don't personally like prank calls - my opinion.

However they can be funny, when operated according to regulations/codes of practice etc.

I'd more than that say when operated within the bounds of common decency. Yes, there were so many holes in this one with fake accents etc. But ultimately they were looking to speak to the Duchess of Cambridge. What were they going to say if they got through? If someone did that to anyone's sister, wife, mother when she is a pregnant girl sick in hospital it is disgraceful.

Yes, there is fault on the call being put through (I understand that the clip was edited to remove confidential information over and above the sleeping comment) and there is a line that the presenters crossed - but where were the station management? This was in bad taste, and unfortunately a life was taken. We have no way of knowing the stress on this woman, maybe on top of other stresses. All we know is that she went to work that night trying to do her best.

wow sierra

I don't like prank calls or practical jokes - I just don't think they are very funny, and can be hurtful. But in the scheme of things - before the outcry and the suicide - I thought this one was pretty mild.

The nurse must have been under huge pressure before the incident and already on the edge or put under huge pressure after the incident by the media or her employers. It makes no sense that such a minor happening would cause a suicide.

People have their babies die, are victims of terrible wars and torture, have marriage break ups, financial worries, sick children or parents etc etc etc. As **** experiences in life go - I wish mine were as minor as what this nurse suffered in the radio prank.....

Has to be a lot more to this.

Curly Judge

annettea wrote: »

oh my its no ones fault.. Your one was obviously going through a hard time anyway, if its anyones fault its her own. No one gave her an ultimatum. And i wouldnt say it was even over the call as all she did was put them through to another nurse. That nurse should have copped on like, fake dogs in the background, a big hussle and bussle that reminded me of puppets, unbelievably bad accents and she was talking to them!! The one that died only had a couple secs conversation.
Im sorry but that prank was hilarious and ye all would think so too if ur one didnt go off and kill herself.
Nothing got to do with the djs they were doing there job , lots of radio station in ireland do pranks. And what media wouldnt have tried something like this, hello they put naked pics of kate and harry all over the papers u dont see the photographers go kill themselves!
The poor woman was probably going through a hard time anyway and was thinking of doing this for some time. No one should be held accountable for this. And this is my pinion.

Your taste and judgment are on a par with your grammar and spelling.
I hope to God you are never put in charge of anything that requires any degree of sensitivity or discernment.

TheCatsMeow

ken wrote: »

Just back from the shop and i see the front page of the star (i think) is carrying a story about the female d.j. involved is now on suicide watch in Sydney.

Not suprised, I had typed that possibility in my first post but deleted it. Are the people who seem to be out for the two DJs blood going to be happy if one of them end up committing suicide from the guilt and hate?

What they did was wrong but anyone with a conscience and empathy would be disturbed knowing someone they had performed a prank on committed suicide shortly thereafter.

blacklilly

ken wrote: »

Just back from the shop and i see the front page of the star (i think) is carrying a story about the female d.j. involved is now on suicide watch in Sydney.

Why is this news? "Journalism" (I'm not sure if you can refer that word to the crap contained in the star) in general is becoming near extinct. This information in not in the public's interest it's only objective is to be sensationalistic.
I feel for this women, if she is on suicide watch that is absolutely no ones business and stories of her current struggle splashed all over these papers is certainly not going to help her situation.

laugh

The number of people on this thread that:

a) Think a prank of this nature is acceptable on any level.

b) Are questioning the mental state of this woman, prior to any of this occurring and without any evidence to support their position.

c) Bringing up their biases towards the Royal Family.

is deeply worrying.

Extract your head from your arse.

joydivision

That poor dj is on suicide watch . Its cause that nurse killed herself . That nurse took the joke too far .

MagicSean

wow sierra wrote: »

I don't like prank calls or practical jokes - I just don't think they are very funny, and can be hurtful. But in the scheme of things - before the outcry and the suicide - I thought this one was pretty mild.

If you're mother/daughter/wife was ill in hospital and you found out that someone rang pretending to be you and had been given detail of your wifes condition how would you feel. Now imagine they broadcast that all over the internet and the airwaves.

wow sierra wrote: »

The nurse must have been under huge pressure before the incident and already on the edge or put under huge pressure after the incident by the media or her employers. It makes no sense that such a minor happening would cause a suicide.

That's a fairly big assumption to make and an underestimation of the effects one incident can have on someone.

wow sierra wrote: »

People have their babies die, are victims of terrible wars and torture, have marriage break ups, financial worries, sick children or parents etc etc etc. As **** experiences in life go - I wish mine were as minor as what this nurse suffered in the radio prank.....

Has to be a lot more to this.

There's a rule in law called the egg shell skull rule. It means you take someone as you get them. You are not entitled to assume a person is not more fragile than the average person.

Curly Judge

TheCatsMeow wrote: »

Not suprised, I had typed that possibility in my first post but deleted it. Are the people who seem to be out for the two DJs blood going to be happy if one of them end up committing suicide from the guilt and hate?

What they did was wrong but anyone with a conscience and empathy would be disturbed knowing someone they had performed a prank on committed suicide shortly thereafter.

In the unfortunate and - to my mind - extremely unlikely event of the female DJ committing suicide will we be allowed to post, "Aw shure she must have been a bit wobbly to begin with"?
Much as I despise her, her male DJ companion and her managers, I hope she pulls through and is given the opportunity to make amends for her stupidity.

miss no stars

If this series of events can teach anything, it's that humans are fallible and that we always look for scapegoats. 2 nurses made a mistake, could happen to ANYONE, they get torn strips off by the media, public and probably by hospital management (never mind anything the royals themselves may have had to say). One of them crumbles under the pressure and commits suicide. Maybe she already had problems, maybe she didn't, but the point is that there was enough public pressure on her to lead to her suicide. Now everyone is furious at, and blaming, the two Australian DJs.

I'm not a religious person by any stretch, but I think that the saying "but for the grace of god, there go I" is appropriate here and people and the media should bear that in mind and leave the people involved alone.

Zonda999

Just been looking through the best selling british newspaper for their balanced reaction to this tragedy, and found this:

The Sun wrote:

The pranksters — described as both being close to breakdowns after their hoax horrifically backfired — could even face EXTRADITION on a charge of manslaughter.

Somehow I doubt how factually accurate that is..

green123

miss no stars wrote: »

If this series of events can teach anything, it's that humans are fallible and that we always look for scapegoats. 2 nurses made a mistake, could happen to ANYONE, they get torn strips off by the media, public and probably by hospital management (never mind anything the royals themselves may have had to say). One of them crumbles under the pressure and commits suicide. Maybe she already had problems, maybe she didn't, but the point is that there was enough public pressure on her to lead to her suicide. Now everyone is furious at, and blaming, the two Australian DJs.

I'm not a religious person by any stretch, but I think that the saying "but for the grace of god, there go I" is appropriate here and people and the media should bear that in mind and leave the people involved alone.

no, not everyone.

anyone who is rational and logical is saying that it is not the djs fault.

there have been thousands of prank calls made over the years and people dont normally react in such an extreme way.

the djs could not have expected that things would end up like this.

the djs are not responsible for the nurses reaction



.

Curly Judge

green123 wrote: »

no, not everyone.

anyone who is rational and logical is saying that it is not the djs fault.

there have been thousands of prank calls made over the years and people dont normally react in such an extreme way.

the djs could not have expected that things would end up like this.

the djs are not responsible for the nurses reaction



.

It's not as though these people were writing the great Australian novel or formulating some piece of political theory that would benefit mankind.
Their work to date hardly makes them contenders for some future Nobel prize.
Their grubby little programme keeps itself afloat by pandering to the most base of human instincts: People who find fun in the discomfiture and embarrassment of innocent others.
If they, and their ilk, were banned from the airways tomorrow I and a lot more like me would be more than happy.
Their absence would not detract one iota from decent human experience.
In fact the very opposite would be more likely.

Red21

I think there i's a subtle aspect of this story that some people still don't understand.
If you look at everybody thats in the public eye, from Katie Price to Vincent Brown to BaracK Obama they all want to be there and they've probably always wanted to be there, as it's in their make-up and there is nothing wrong with that. I'd make and exception for some sports stars mainly because of the way they came into sports, Paul Scholes is one such sport star.

Then there are folks who are not in public eye but if they happen to be thrown into it wouldn't be a problem, it would be water of ducks back for them so they don't ever bother trying to avoid it and thats fine too.

Then you'll have many many people who don't want to be in the media spotlight and will avoid it at all times. They may not get much of a hearing for obvious reasons but I can assure you they are living happy normal lives you'll just never see them spinning the wheel on winning streak. It may not be the ideal way to be, but it's just the way they are. You could look at it abit like public speaking, it's water off a ducks back to some while it's the cause of major anxiety for others.

For anyone watching the Late Late show Last Friday night one of the guests was a Model/Celebrity Vivienne Connolly during her interview her partner who was in the audience came up in the conversation the camera shot to the guy and he did what can only be described as a camera shy routine, to anyone watching this who genuinely hates the spotlight they would see this as a complete fake, an act to protray himself as a certain type of person,if he truly was that bothered by being the center of attention it's hard to believe he would end up with a partner who courts the media and if he did, he certainly wouldn't sit in the Late Late audience when she's being interviewed. This kinda thing gives people this idea that some people are camera shy but it's cute and funny.

Also it must be considered that if a person is thrown into the national or international spotlight you can only imagine how much unwanted attention they are getting in their own local town or community a lot of people would really struggle with this, it may be water of a ducks to you, but to many it's a nightmare.

squod

Are they going to film the birth I wonder?

Mental Mickey

joydivision wrote: »

That poor dj is on suicide watch . Its cause that nurse killed herself . That nurse took the joke too far .

WTF now?

miss no stars

green123 wrote: »

no, not everyone.

Yeah, em thanks for that clarification :rolleyes:. Think it was quite clear that I didn't mean literally everyone, just the sizeable number of people who go around mindlessly laying blame and shouting the loudest. It amazes me how people take one word literally when it quite obviously wasn't meant literally. In future I shall endeavour to ensure that every comment I may make is phrased literally; exactly, and without any colloquialisms; abbreviations; contractions, or any other facet of everyday communication lest you think that I accuse you.


Actually, go on, keep believing that I did mean that literally every single person in the world is blaming the DJ.

annettea

Curly Judge wrote: »

Your taste and judgment are on a par with your grammar and spelling.
I hope to God you are never put in charge of anything that requires any degree of sensitivity or discernment.

I'm sorry that my spelling and grammar is not up to your standard.
I'm sorry that my opinion is not the same as yours.
I'm actually quite good with sensitive subjects just for not something as stupid as this.
Now thanks for the insult, my advice to you is go get a life and stop insulting people to make yourself feel better.
Have a great day

DellyBelly

Id say the nurse was unstable before that call and this just pushed her over the edge....

Not the fault of the DJs whatsoever

sandin

The general concensus is that the prank call caused this nurse to take her life - but if that were true surely whe would have commited suicide 3 days earlier.

In truth the suicide was probaly caused by the gutter press reaction to the error rather than the prank call itself. She possibly was also lambasted in her workplace ove it (they shold check that), but most off all the gutter press went to town on it and then they suddenly hve a change of heart afetr she dies.

Gutter press journalism = scum of the world

Judgement Day

squod wrote: »

Are they going to film the birth I wonder?

Why would they, they aren't 'trailer trash' like many of today's so called celebs. Anyway, what has that got to do with this topic?

MagicSean

DellyBelly wrote: »

Id say the nurse was unstable before that call and this just pushed her over the edge....

Not the fault of the DJs whatsoever

So if someone is standing on the edge of a cliff and you push them over it's their own fault for standing so close to the edge?

Mental Mickey

DellyBelly wrote: »

Id say the nurse was unstable before that call and this just pushed her over the edge....

Not the fault of the DJs whatsoever

Doesn't matter! What they did was stupid and irresponsible. They just managed to get away with it.

Curly Judge

annettea wrote: »

I'm sorry that my spelling and grammar is not up to your standard.

Well, it seems to have improved in this post, so that's a nice start.

annettea wrote: »

I'm sorry that my opinion is not the same as yours.

I have no problem with you having an opinion that is different from mine. It's just that in this case you are completely wrong.....in my opinion!

annettea wrote: »

I'm actually quite good with sensitive subjects just for not something as stupid as this.

You opened your post by referring to the dead nurse as "Your one".
Sensitive? I don't think so!
Why didn't you go the whole hog and refer to her as "Yer Wan"?

annettea wrote: »

Now thanks for the insult, my advice to you is go get a life and stop insulting people to make yourself feel better.

When you have your much publicized happy event I wish you nothing but the best and hope that no asshole rings up the hospital on air looking for nitty gritty details and splashes them all over the media.

annettea wrote: »

Have a great day

Thanks, I will!
And best of luck with the birth and your health:)

andrewdeerpark

This whole event is just out of hand the DJ's on suicide watch what about the station manager next? Where will this stop the call was pretty harmless.

As for the edge of the cliff analogy what it the hospital management were shouting in her ear to jump? I do not believe she did not get a dressing down for a harmless transfer while under pressure multitasking.

Curly Judge

Curly Judge wrote: »

Your taste and judgment are on a par with your grammar and spelling.
I hope to God you are never put in charge of anything that requires any degree of sensitivity or discernment.

+1

For goodness sake, referring to someone who has just died as 'yer one'. How much more tacky, rude and disrespectful does it get?

I wonder how some of these hardfaced, callous posters would feel if they lost a family member and someone posted on an internet forum referring to them as 'yer one' and saying their suicide was 'their own fault'. We're talking about someone's mother/sister/wife here.

Curly Judge

sandin wrote: »

The general concensus is that the prank call caused this nurse to take her life - but if that were true surely whe would have commited suicide 3 days earlier.

In truth the suicide was probaly caused by the gutter press reaction to the error rather than the prank call itself. She possibly was also lambasted in her workplace ove it (they shold check that), but most off all the gutter press went to town on it and then they suddenly hve a change of heart afetr she dies.

Gutter press journalism = scum of the world

I would tend to agree with you except I'm not sure if you see a difference between the gutter press and the gutter radio stations.
To me they are all the one dogs litter. [ If that isn't being too unkind to dogs?]