HEC: Munster vs Saracens, Thomond Park, Sat 8th November 18.00

Fireball07

Saracens

Downey made more metres than anyone? Interesting stat, I remember him taking it into contact a few times but only broke the line once as far as I remember. And one of the highest tacklers too, didn't really notice him in that regard either.

thomond2006

17 penalties...yikes

Fireball07

Saracens

And they lost only one more lineout than us?

And is conceding a penalty/free-kick at the scrum counting as losing it? Some of those seem a little off.

chupacabra

Coughlan, DOC2, Downey and Dougie were the pick of the bunch for me tonight. Even though im blind as a bat and most of the contentious calls were when play was on the far side from me I felt the ref was far too whistle happy tonight for both sides. Missed a few blatant off-sides too. Lucky as feck that Farrell had a poor night with the boot but I would have taken the result before the game. Lets see Leinster get an Irish white-wash now tomorrow.

Ardillaun

Standards are high here. I must confess I was impressed by Munster's performance. Saracens are a serious outfit. The recently (justly) famous Brad Barritt was rendered anonymous by excellent defence. As for the wings, once again, Zebo's tackling and kicking merited praise and Dougie gave a vintage defensive display - I just wish he could have scored a try from that one-handed pick-up.

Regarding Rog's kicking into touch from penalties, their trajectory seemed way too low. A lot of stars seemed to suffer over the last few days in the same department e.g. Jackson, Farrell, Wilkinson. Should we blame the weather or Lady Luck?

chupacabra

Ardillaun wrote: »

Standards are high here. I must confess I was impressed by Munster's performance. Saracens are a serious outfit. The recently (justly) famous Brad Barritt was rendered anonymous by excellent defence. As for the wings, once again, Zebo's tackling and kicking merited praise and Dougie gave a vintage defensive display - I just wish he could have scored a try from that one-handed pick-up.

Regarding Rog's kicking into touch from penalties, their trajectory seemed way too low. A lot of stars seemed to suffer over the last few days in the same department e.g. Jackson, Farrell, Wilkinson. Should we blame the weather or Lady Luck?

Even in the warm up he was kicking from hand extremely low and short of his target. Tries the spiral all the time as opposed to Jackson who has a more traditional kicking style.

durkadurka

Masterclass from ROG according to the indo today!
'Perfect 10'

digzy

durkadurka wrote: »

Masterclass from ROG according to the indo today!
'Perfect 10'

Felt that was a bit generous to him. That drop that went out on the full was a horror. we were lucky farrell had a poor night. i've a bad feeling we're gonna be minced next time. thought smit had a huge influence when he came on.

Any theories about our scrum? Botha seemed to get pinged a fair bit-and thats at home!

Judgement Day

The Old Dog(s) for the Hard Road....two headlines from Scrum.com last night.

phog

Having watched the yellow cards incident again on TV I can't for the life of me see how DOC got carded or the penalty reversed. Very poor from Bardos.

budhabob

Saracens

Fireball07 wrote: »

Downey made more metres than anyone? Interesting stat, I remember him taking it into contact a few times but only broke the line once as far as I remember. And one of the highest tacklers too, didn't really notice him in that regard either.

His defense was really impressive yesterday. In the second half on our 22 line he made a number of consecutive solid tackles. Really impressed me.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Saracens

durkadurka wrote: »

Masterclass from ROG according to the indo today!
'Perfect 10'

Really, imo he played an average game which combined with good kicking seems to get him all the credit

He was one of Munster's worse performers last night

Hippo

Good win for Munster whatever about the losing bp, they made Saracens look very ordinary, thought the pack put in a terrific shift, esp Couglan. Ref got in the way all night, though to counteract the accusations of bias he gave Munster 3 points when penalising a Sarries forward for going off his feet - the guy had been pulled of his feet by (I think) DOC2!

As long as ROG plays at 10 that backline has no chance of functioning. Sure, he kicked his goals, but everything else he did was desperately poor. Time for Penney to grasp that nettle.

DDC1990

Anton Pitout

Hippo wrote: »

Good win for Munster whatever about the losing bp, they made Saracens look very ordinary, thought the pack put in a terrific shift, esp Couglan. Ref got in the way all night, though to counteract the accusations of bias he gave Munster 3 points when penalising a Sarries forward for going off his feet - the guy had been pulled of his feet by (I think) DOC2!

As long as ROG plays at 10 that backline has no chance of functioning. Sure, he kicked his goals, but everything else he did was desperately poor. Time for Penney to grasp that nettle.

Not sure which pen you are talking about, but more then likely the pen was given for hands in the ruck.

If the player is on his feet, then pulled off his feet, and kept playing the ball while off his feet, thats a penalty.

As soon as you are cleared off your feet, you have stop playing the ball.

Any idea what score it was?

Fishooks13

Back from my hiatus, couldn't hack the forum over the international window. Presume it's ok that I set up another account considering I'm not doing so to avoid any sort of a ban?

Anyway I was at the game last night. Overall it was a dreadful affair, two teams lacky any creativity in attack, and two teams that won't be anywhere near the Aviva in May.

From a Munster POV I thought we lacked any sort of ability to really be clinical with ball in hand. I can't for the life of me figure out why after three months under Penney we still try about 3 or 4 crazy offloads that aren't even close to being on per game. But in saying all that Saracens were far worse with the ball, and if we have more patience and lower our penalty count next week I really think we'll win.

I thought Coughlan, Earls, DOC, DOC.2, Murray and Kilcoyne were all very good. But our entire team seems to hinge around a guy at ten who's simply not able to threathen an opposition line with ball in hand anymore. At this stage I'd fire JJ in at 10. Some will scream madness, but why not? We're not going to win the HC. In fact we'll be lucky to get out of our group so why not look to the future.

On the ref. I thought he was bad for both sides in the first half. The sinbinning was ridiculous, nothing in it from whaat I saw, just give them a chatting to and get on with it. In the second half I thought we got the brunt of the bad decisions. The POM "knock on" was a very, very bad call, one you wouldn't see the likes of Owens or Poite make. Then there was from what I can see, some very dubious calls at scrumtime. In saying all that I thought Zebo should have gone to the bin for taking Ashton out.


Also, what a laugh that Farrell was nominated IRB player of the year

totallegend

I'm baffled by the Indo's praise for ROG, thought he killed any moves before they started, particularly since Murray looked lively.

Welcome back fishhooks. I have, of course, reported you as a rereg.

CatFromHue

Fishooks13 aye??

What happened to Fishooks 1-12?

Fishooks13

CatFromHue wrote: »

Fishooks13 aye??

What happened to Fishooks 1-12?

I probably should have skipped 13 given it's supposed to be unlucky!

Anyway good to be back.

Another note on the match, I had the awful misfortune of being situated next to the guy that kept screaming during Farrell's kicks. Absolute goon.

Hippo

DDC1990 wrote: »

Not sure which pen you are talking about, but more then likely the pen was given for hands in the ruck.

It was for being off his feet, coming over the top. Can't remember when it was, mercifully didn't record the game!

GerM

totallegend wrote: »

I'm baffled by the Indo's praise for ROG, thought he killed any moves before they started, particularly since Murray looked lively.

Welcome back fishhooks. I have, of course, reported you as a rereg.

In fairness, he's not really getting any praise in the article I saw. The sub editor lobbed in a catchy headline "O'Gara gives masterclass" which is standard but the actual content really doesn't do anything aside from report it exactly as it was.

budhabob

Saracens

Hippo wrote: »

It was for being off his feet, coming over the top. Can't remember when it was, mercifully didn't record the game!

he did have hands on the ball, but was being pulled off his feet also.

Fireball07

Saracens

Welcome back Fishooks! Good to have you back!

Banbridgeman2

Fishooks13 wrote: »

Back from my hiatus, couldn't hack the forum over the international window. Presume it's ok that I set up another account considering I'm not doing so to avoid any sort of a ban?

Anyway I was at the game last night. Overall it was a dreadful affair, two teams lacky any creativity in attack, and two teams that won't be anywhere near the Aviva in May.

From a Munster POV I thought we lacked any sort of ability to really be clinical with ball in hand. I can't for the life of me figure out why after three months under Penney we still try about 3 or 4 crazy offloads that aren't even close to being on per game. But in saying all that Saracens were far worse with the ball, and if we have more patience and lower our penalty count next week I really think we'll win.

I thought Coughlan, Earls, DOC, DOC.2, Murray and Kilcoyne were all very good. But our entire team seems to hinge around a guy at ten who's simply not able to threathen an opposition line with ball in hand anymore. At this stage I'd fire JJ in at 10. Some will scream madness, but why not? We're not going to win the HC. In fact we'll be lucky to get out of our group so why not look to the future.

On the ref. I thought he was bad for both sides in the first half. The sinbinning was ridiculous, nothing in it from whaat I saw, just give them a chatting to and get on with it. In the second half I thought we got the brunt of the bad decisions. The POM "knock on" was a very, very bad call, one you wouldn't see the likes of Owens or Poite make. Then there was from what I can see, some very dubious calls at scrumtime. In saying all that I thought Zebo should have gone to the bin for taking Ashton out.


Also, what a laugh that Farrell was nominated IRB player of the year

Why did you publicly delete your account instead of simply stopping posting then you big drama queen welcome to the re-reg club!

Fishooks13

Banbridgeman2 wrote: »

Why did you publicly delete your account instead of simply stopping posting then you big drama queen welcome to the re-reg club!

Ah I had a fair bit of college work on at the time so it was in my own best interest!

omerin

ROG brain seems to be switched off, his restarts were poor last night and it cost us, he also did something similar with Ire against Arg and that cost a try. He had opportunities to get some length on his 22m drop outs and he didn't aswell as missing touch from a pen. Sad to say but time for change

Judgement Day

I know it's not fashionable to favour ROG these days but most commentators I've heard/read since the game seem to think that he did fine.

Fishooks13

Judgement Day wrote: »

I know it's not fashionable to favour ROG these days but most commentators I've heard/read since the game seem to think that he did fine.

He wasn't awful, and tbh, I'm not sure Keatley would have nailed all those kicks. But the thing is, he offers virtually nothing in attack anymore and he's totally unsuited to the game Munster are trying to play right now. He literally just shovels ball out to Downey and Earls acting as a middle man between Murray and the rest of the backline, giving the opposition defence a second or two extra to get ready.

Maybe we wouldn't have won last night with Keatley on the pitch but there comes a time when you have to ask yourself, who cares? We're not going to win the HC this year, so why not try and build for next year by playing guys like Keatley and JJ who are in better form, more complete modern tens, and who suit our gameplan much more than O Gara

Fireball07

Saracens

Judgement Day wrote: »

I know it's not fashionable to favour ROG these days but most commentators I've heard/read since the game seem to think that he did fine.

Yeah but that doesn't mean much.

ROG wasn't terrible, his kicking from the tee was excellent, it must be said. And we played a good, tight game. Our pack were excellent. He did fine if you're talking about the "old-style Munster game". And that kick and chase was very good.


But people who watch Munster regularly know that we have some really talented backs... and ROG just stands too deep to get them moving as we'd like. And defensively...well, he's never been strong defensively, but people used to cover for him and we'd get by. But he's more exposed than ever these days for whatever reason.

Add in the fact that his restarts were quite poor, particularly the one at the end. And he missed touch with a penalty and wasn't getting the distance you'd like. Keatley is just a better player atm tbh.

flutered

my two cents, penny has to play rog, as kidney requires him to have game time, methinks i saw this on rte 6.01news.

Fireball07

Saracens

flutered wrote: »

my two cents, penny has to play rog, as kidney requires him to have game time, methinks i saw this on rte 6.01news.

Don't think that's true.

Kidney didn't force Ulster to play Gilroy ahead of Trimble. And I think Penney would have said something in relation to that.

Sindri

Judgement Day wrote: »

I know it's not fashionable to favour ROG these days but most commentators I've heard/read since the game seem to think that he did fine.

I thought ROG really put in a massive effort. There was numerous times I saw him making tackles and also around the rucks. Now he may have been fairly useless in the rucks but he did go in for the contact on a good few tackles.

The only thing is, as has been mentioned innumerable times before his standing 10 metres behind the gain line kills any sort of attacking platform for the backs and leaves Munster like a car without wheels and the only way to go forward is either push it with the forwards or kick it.

Earl's though was electric last night, it's really useful to have someone like him who can break in midfield and create something. Playing that more expansive game with Keatley and Downey inside him he could really begin to run riot, especially if he has more support when he breaks. He was isolated a few times. Against more structured defences he, and Munster, may struggle with out that support.

Every other Munster player played well as well and it was a good performance that Munster can really improve on. Thought Murray's passing was for the most part very good as well.

accidentprone1

This might seem like a stupid question, but what's making ROG consistently stand so deep? Surely with his experience he knows the negative affect it has on the rest of backline's attack. Is it lack of confidence in his ability with ball in hand?

vkid

Thought Munster were worth their win. There was some good stuff and some awful stuff but for a team rebuilding I was happy enough...it was never going to happen over night. People need to have a little patience. Thought Howlett was great thought, and thought Earls did well too tbh among others..

Best part of being back in thomond though was an actual atmosphere. No gobsh!te on the PA, or cheesy music over the speakers like the Ireland games...an actual atmosphere generated by the crowd and whats happening on the pitch. Would love to be off to the return leg next week but finances won't let it happen

Lelantos

Saracens

I see in today's Indo that Rog was injured & a doubt right up to the kickoff. Was probably playing at 80% capacity?
It begs the question, does Penney have any faith in Keats for the really big games?

Sindri

accidentprone1 wrote: »

This might seem like a stupid question, but what's making ROG consistently stand so deep? Surely with his experience he knows the negative affect it has on the rest of backline's attack. Is it lack of confidence in his ability with ball in hand?

He has no intention to run. It gives him time to pick his spot and kick, see where the opposition back 3 are. It also keeps him away from the more physical aspect of the game. And he doesn't intend on chasing any of his kicks either.

It's not lack of confidence in his ability to pass the ball because he's quite good at that. The fact that he know's it's negative or not doesn't matter either as he can't play any other way and would find it difficult to try and do so.

Otacon

Any injuries from Saturday? I didn't see anyone hobble off but after Stander's mysterious injury, I feel like I have to ask!

Will be heading to Watford this Sunday so hoping for another 'Away Northampton'!

phog

accidentprone1 wrote: »

This might seem like a stupid question, but what's making ROG consistently stand so deep? Surely with his experience he knows the negative affect it has on the rest of backline's attack. Is it lack of confidence in his ability with ball in hand?

So deep, that's a myth, the ref had to blow up a scrum at one stage to tell him he was to close despite he being in line with the AR.

Lelantos wrote: »

I see in today's Indo that Rog was injured & a doubt right up to the kickoff. Was probably playing at 80% capacity?
It begs the question, does Penney have any faith in Keats for the really big games?

ROG came out early and ran around the field which I thought was strange as it's not part of his routine add to that JJ was held back from the A game so there must have been a doubt but I really dont think Penney has a lack of confidence in Keatley.

Rumour is that Keatley will start next week

bamboozle

really enjoyed the match, as expected the late kick-off really had the crowd on form, the team didnt let the crowd down with a huge performance from start to finish - i found it extremly frustrating that the referee constantly was blowing up play especially when Munster's 8 were terrorising the sarries pack yet the ref kept looking for excuses to penalise munster.

At every breakdown in every game if you look hard enough you'd probably find some reason to blow for a penalty, i just wish the referees had enough cop-on to firstly let the game flow and secondly give advantage to the team in the ascendency.

Saying it not as a Munster man but with another referee out there they would have had a far more comfortable winning margin.

DOCII and DOC were excellent as was Coughlan.

GerM

phog wrote: »

So deep, that's a myth, the ref had to blow up a scrum at one stage to tell him he was to close despite he being in line with the AR.

There's a lot of bluff spoken about standing deep (Sexton actually stood very deep for a lot of the Argentina game). However, ROG was standing deep against Saracens. If he isn't going up to the minimum distance at a scrum, there's something wrong given he has a guaranteed 20m to work with. There was one period where Munster managed to put together approximately 7 or 8 phases in the second half around then Saracens 10m line. However, they lost ground over the course of it due to where ROG was taking the ball. The entire line was arranged about 10m behind the ruck.

totallegend

The issue is not where the outhalf stands (deep/flat), it's what he does with the ball when he gets it. Sometimes if the OH is further back, it gives him the option to change direction and attack down either wing, whereas if he's very flat he's can either take it into contact or try an offload to a support runner.

The issue is that ROG provides none of these options; he stands deep and he kicks the ball and that's it.

buck65

Whilst the ref was horrendous to us he also penalised Saracens twice dubiously for a lineout infringement and Kelly Brown for not releasing when he was clearly on his feet.
We have ourselves to blame for letting the point slip though, not too bothered as I always believed after the debacle in Paris that we are playing for second place in the group.

phog

totallegend wrote: »

The issue is that ROG provides none of these options; he stands deep and he kicks the ball and that's it.

Really not intertested in getting into an argument but that's simply horsehite.

Podge_irl

totallegend wrote: »

The issue is that ROG provides none of these options; he stands deep and he kicks the ball and that's it.

He actually passes most ball he receives these days. He just does it so far behind the gainline and without committing any defenders that its useless.

Tox56

ROG's kicking from hand looked a bit off against Sarries, didn't look to be striking them very well and wasn't getting much distance.

Fishooks13

I don't think ROG recieving the ball deep is the problem, he's actually been standing a lot flatter recently. The problem was the fact that the Sarries defense knew he has no breaking threat and filed across accordingly. I don't think the fact that we had very little in the way of decoy runners off his inside shoulder helped either

totallegend

phog wrote: »

Really not intertested in getting into an argument but that's simply horsehite.

OK, he might pass it a bit but if it's just simply shovelling it out to the next guy, that's not much benefit to anyone. The fact remains that he presents no threat of any kind with the ball in hand and there's no way that's 'horsehite'

phog

totallegend wrote: »

The issue is that ROG provides none of these options; he stands deep and he kicks the ball and that's it.

Podge_irl wrote: »

He actually passes most ball he receives these days. He just does it so far behind the gainline and without committing any defenders that its useless.

Fishooks13 wrote: »

I don't think ROG recieving the ball deep is the problem, he's actually been standing a lot flatter recently. The problem was the fact that the Sarries defense knew he has no breaking threat and filed across accordingly. I don't think the fact that we had very little in the way of decoy runners off his inside shoulder helped either

The truth lies somewhere in between all these facts.

Tox56 wrote: »

ROG's kicking from hand looked a bit off against Sarries, didn't look to be striking them very well and wasn't getting much distance.

How many kicks didn't really make the distance? I counted about 2 but then again watching Sexton on Sunday I see he was short with one too. Also one of the one's that I counted as being short for ROG was from the middle of the field and I thought Sexton opted for the posts for a similar kick in an international and posters here argued he was never going to get much lenght going for touch so the kick for posts was worth the punt.

Cpt_Blackbeard

totallegend wrote: »

OK, he might pass it a bit but if it's just simply shovelling it out to the next guy, that's not much benefit to anyone. The fact remains that he presents no threat of any kind with the ball in hand and there's no way that's 'horsehite'

That wasn't your original point though. Most opinions of ROG, and Munster in general, are extremely out-dated. Considering that he was apparently injured on Saturday, I'll forgive him not being great. From what I remember of the last few seasons for Ireland is that Sexton kicks more ball away than ROG.

phog

totallegend wrote: »

OK, he might pass it a bit but if it's just simply shovelling it out to the next guy, that's not much benefit to anyone. The fact remains that he presents no threat of any kind with the ball in hand and there's no way that's 'horsehite'

No threat? Of course it's "horse****e"

Lelantos

Saracens

phog wrote: »

The truth lies somewhere in between all these facts.



How many kicks didn't really make the distance? I counted about 2 but then again watching Sexton on Sunday I see he was short with one too. Also one of the one's that I counted as being short for ROG was from the middle of the field and I thought Sexton opted for the posts for a similar kick in an international and posters here argued he was never going to get much lenght going for touch so the kick for posts was worth the punt.

Is it worth bearing in mind he was injured & perhaps his kicking from hand was affected, trajectory was quite low on a lot of them & his back would have contributed to this?