The future Junior cert will not be a state exam!

richiek67

Hi Folks,

I wanted to share this information with people that may not be aware of the fact that the government are in the throws of doing away with the junior cert as we know it, that is, it will not be a state exam by the time your 9 year old son gets to do it.
My wife is a secondary teacher and we have 2 kids that will potentially be doing an exam made by the school and not the state in a few years time. I wanted to get this information out in the public eye as its quite disturbing.
The unions seem to be doing nothing about this and anyone concerned about their kids education should take this very seriously. I am totally appalled about this, as is my wife.
We all need to complain about this and voice out outright concern, the fact that it'll be up to the individual teachers to set an exam is outrages in my opinion. We know the standard of some teachers and its not good. There are some excellent teachers, let me just say that.
If anyone out there knows anyone in the media can they please voice their concerns and try to get this information known. Its quite disturbing.
If anyone has any comments on this please comment on this.

Rich

seavill

This has been all over the news, internet and papers for the last 3 months.

The unions are in discussions with the minister about this. All their recent literature printed has articles on it for the last number of months, check their websites you will see links they are encouraging teachers to join the discussions.

A recent publication by the ASTI contained nothing but information on this and how the ministers suggestions are at odds with that the NCCA had proposed.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that no one knows about this but it has been all over the news for the past couple of months

happywithlife

i don't know seavill - my nephew is in 4th class at the mo' and his mother wouldn't have a clue about this .. my friends who all have much younger kids aren't at all concerned about it - the minute they hear 'junior cert' they tune it out as its not relevant to their everyday lives - yet when i've spoken about it they are shocked and very much against the new proposals. i have one friend who works with young teens and a lot of them would be early school leavers and she in particular would say that to have a state certificate to a youngster like that is very valuable to them as it may be the only formal certification they may ever get
i do think more people in the public domain just aren't as aware as they should be - i personally think there's a lot of parents of primary school children who will only realise this when their little darlings start post primary. a bit like the pupil:teacher ratio hikes in the previous budget - parents at post primary thought 'ah sure it only means Mary will have an extra one or two in her maths class - shure that will be fine' .... very few realised that come the following sept it meant in many schools, the loss of a optional subject in 5th year or tighter restrictions to 'bands' for 2nd years etc
people just don't make the connection until it directly affects them and by then it'll be too late

seavill

happywithwife

My point was it has been all over the news, internet and papers in the past few months, just because people choose not to listen or read it becuase they think it does not effect them does not change the fact that it is something that has been well publicised.

The op also states that the unions are doing nothing about it. I have read several pages on it in the last 4 or 5 ASTI publications over the past couple of months it is also all over their website. His point is incorrect here.

I was not agreeing or disagreeing with him in relation to his views on the issue but his view that it needs to get into the media is unfounded. I'm almost at the stage of being sick of hearing about it over the past couple of months. It was front page news of several of the news papers the day it was announced.

Again people ignoring the fact is a completely different issue. Maybe it is something that the IPPN or INTO need to send a newsletter to the parents in their schools about. Although in reality it has nothing to do with them I just don't know of who else would be in a position to get the info to primary parents. Clearly the media, it seems is not the way to go.

happywithlife

oh of course i realise that there is so much the media can do - short of writing a letter addressed to every child in the country what more can be done?
but i do think people just don't realise what the proposed changes mean .. and won't do till its too late (obviously i don't agree with the full proposals) i think people have so much going on in their lives they can only process what is relevant to their life today and tomorrow and not something that for many parents is in the far distant future (i'm thinking of my own social cirlce here where all our kids are under 7) and for that reason more needs to be done but hopefully even discussions in forums like this will raise awareness of the issue
i agree the unions are doing something though so i accept your points in relation to the op being wrong on that

richiek67

I agree with you happyhousewife, however, I'm not so sure its been that vocal on the news. The trouble with stating that 'its been all over the news' , sure and perhaps it has, but whats important is the way they address it, and of course the government are going to put a nice silver lining on the whole thing and think its the best thing since sliced bread, don't you know. Its not. People are also too busy and tend to look at these types of issues when its all too late. They have no one to blame then but themselves. I'll bet from now on the government will keep it low key till its too late for everyone. So in that sense despite the information, like the pro yes vote that the government messed up on regarding children's rights, they were not impartial to that!! Wont get into that though.
Anyway, I didn't write this to get into the issue of whether the information was necessarily in the public domain, clearly seavill seems to think it is, probably obscured in such a way that we gloss over it. Clearly seavill is not concerned with the plight of our future lack of state recognized exam.
I have kids and I'm extremely concerned for the education system, its going down the drain. I think Ireland ranks quite low down compared to 10 years ago. Quite disturbing...Education brings jobs and success, we should be putting money into it....

spurious

Personally I have no problem with school set exams or school based assessment AS LONG AS there is external monitoring by the SEC. This already happens in some subjects and the sky has not fallen in.

The proposals however do not, so far, include any external monitoring and that really is a race to the bottom.

I think the 'new' Junior Cert (1992) was never properly implemented and welcome this new review as an opportunity to get things right for a change. However, the whole thing will stand or fall on the integrity of the assessment and without external monitoring, in Ireland, it's dead in the water. It's a pity that there is a possibility that the penny-pinching attitude in the Departments of Finance and Education that kyboshed the original new Junior Cert. will do the same to this.

seavill

I would appreciate if you did not put words in my mouth and did not decide and publicly dictate what I am or am not concerned with. Stick to your own opinion and don't express mine for me.

"I didn't write this to get into the issue of whether the information was necessarily in the public domain,"

You mention in your opening post that it is not in the public domain and has not been well published.
The day of the announcement I bout 3 papers the Indo, the Time and the Mirror to read the different takes on the whole issue from the different types of reporters.

The argument you make now is a completely different one. I agree with you both that people don't fully take notice of things until it effects them. That is a different point.

In relation to your point about the government putting their side to it. Of course they will do this. That is their job to win over the people on their ideas and plans, whether they be right or wrong. If the other side of the argument has not been put forward that is the fault of someone else. The government are hardly going to argue in the papers against their own plans

TEMPLAR KNIGHT

Hopefully this might cut costs a bit. The first thing the teachers told us on our first day of transition year was "lads as ye all know by now the junior cert meant nothing" at the time I was outraged that they had put so much emphasis on it for the years before it. Looking back now I'm inclined to agree with them hopefully this is the first of many steps introducing a new state exam regime where continuous assessment is worked in with a final exam, which is badly needed.

richiek67

Well, the Government are never honest in this respect, same old spin. Its people futures you're talking about...

Anyway, its bloody appalling that its done or proposed to be done on a school by school basis...ridiculous

Sorry Seavill for putting words in your mouth , however, if you are engaging in this thread, don't sit on the fence and act as if its a debate on the government being 'great lads' and what else would they do....
That's not even the issue here so stop trying to argue with me. I cant stand the 'one' person in these forums who come on and seem to have , basically, a bee in their bonnet on just the subject alone.
I wasn't trying to be personal and apologies for any nerves struck. You obviously work somewhere other than the public sector and don't particularly like teachers.

seavill

Look I'm not sure exactly what you are trying to get out of this to be honest. I'm starting to think you are actually trolling and looking for a reaction by half slagging off teachers but being nice about it so it doesn't come across so obvious.

Again you are putting words in my mouth I didnt say the government are great lads or anything of the sort. I just pointed out as you did that the government will give their side of it when it suits them, but at the same time what else do you expect them to do.

"I cant stand the 'one' person in these forums who come on and seem to have , basically, a bee in their bonnet on just the subject alone.
I wasn't trying to be personal and apologies for any nerves struck. You obviously work somewhere other than the public sector and don't particularly like teachers."

So you are sorry for being personal but in the sentence before you insult me again as being "the one person" and being someone that doesn't like teachers. I am a teacher Grow up

For your information I am a secondary school teacher who participates in the forum regularly and have done for some time. So again refrain from the personal insults, refrain from reading into things that are not there and refrain from passing judgement on me or what I might or might not be.

Maybe it is becuase I contradicted you in my first post if that is what has got you going I don't know.
You stated the unions are doing nothing - incorrect - fact
You stated it was not well publicised - As I stated it was on the front pages of news papers, websites and discussed many times on the likes of Matt Cooper, Newstalk and Radio 1. So you are incorrect again. Just because, as you point out correctly, people are not taking enough notice because they think its not something that is effecting them does not mean it hasn't been well discussed.

My personal opinion is that I agree with what Spurious said earlier. My subjects already have project components to them and have always done so. One of my subjects I correct my own students' work and this has always been the case, with external moderation. Some of the proposals are not as new as people seem to think. Schools have been creating their own curriculum with Transition Year since its introduction. But they do need more consideration than the minister is giving them.
In relation to the schools setting the exam I'm not sure how I feel about this until more details come in the future not enough information has been released as of yet as I believe they do not have the information to give.

richiek67

Look Seavill, can we start again??

I didn't mean this to be a ridiculous argument.

I didn't even bother to read your replay in full. I got that your a teacher. Do you have kids that are going to wind up doing this non state exam? Perhaps not.

Trolling, I don't even know what that term means. I'm simply annoyed at something that's going to happen to our kids education and I'm very concerned.

You initial reply didn't induce or give any indication that you agree about this fact.

Lets agree that a none state exam is not a good situation.

seavill

[QUOTE=richiek67;821629

I didn't even bother to read your replay in full. I got that your a teacher. Do you have kids that are going to wind up doing this non state exam? Perhaps not.



Lets agree that a none state exam is not a good situation.[/QUOTE]

I do have a young child that this will effect don't make presumptions.

On your last point I actually said the complete opposite so again don't put words in my mouth please. Read my posts properly.

shruikan2553

What exactly is the problem with this? It would probably save money and stress for people. Colleges manage their own exams and have external people to look at the papers to judge them, a system like that would be fine.

spurious

shruikan2553 wrote: »

What exactly is the problem with this? It would probably save money and stress for people. Colleges manage their own exams and have external people to look at the papers to judge them, a system like that would be fine.

School: All our students got As.
Parent or other interested party: All of them?
School: Oh yes, we are great.
Parent or other interested party: Can I see some of the work?
School: Er, no.

You don't see a problem with that?

The key is the external monitoring. At the moment in some JC subjects it is already the case that teachers assess their own class and are monitored by external people from the SEC. This new system has teachers setting their own exams and assessing practical work with no external monitoring. That is the problem.

richiek67

EXACTLY SPURIOUS......thank you...


Very dangerous situation. Like I said , you have no real guideline, to say that an 'A' in school X is not the same as an 'A' in school Y.
Not to mention impartial results being given to students.

Anyway, hope people realise the bad result this will have

shruikan2553

Im sure if a school has all As for junior cert and 300 is the highest points earned by any student in the leaving cert then parents will think that maybe it isnt as good as the junior cert results make it.

I dont think they should call it a junior cert if its done by the school. Just have third year exams like they have second/first/fourth year exams and scrap the junior cert completely or they could have an external person from another school look at the paper and tell them if it needs to be easier/harder.

An A in NUIM might not be the same as an A in LYIT but that doesnt stop the college system falling apart and degrees are far more important than the junior cert.

Bazinga_N

I find it quite childish that people are complaining about a system that hasn't properly been explained yet. I mean the department hasn't actually explained how it will work fully yet. So far, there's parts of it I like and others I'm not so happy with. I've to agree with spurious on the point that some non-written assessments would be great, but if they were to be assessed by teachers (such as Science today for example), then it would have to have some external monitoring from the department, to ensure everything is done correctly and schools aren't cutting corners. The main issue I see with this is that not all teachers will be able to honestly say they won't be subjective towards certain students work. I'm not saying some will cheat on purpose but subconsciously.

I've had a scan through the framework for the new Junior Cert, and I was surprised by a couple of things. In terms of subjects, they've removed Greek, Classical Studies and Latin and merged them into one new subject called Classics, which I think is a great idea! I have noticed in a small sub-note that they've decided to remove ESS until some further consultation, which I'm not happy about, because I've always thought it sounded like a great subject! Also, I was always happy with the idea of the new short courses until I just saw them. CSPE, SPHE and PE? These subjects are a critical part of a school, and now they're making them a short course? This seems a bit stupid to me!

I don't know I guess it's a bit, hit and miss for me! I do however feel if the Junior Cert changes, the Leaving Cert needs to change too. Wasn't the Junior Cert meant to be a foundation for the much more important Leaving Cert? Doesn't two completely different exams kind of defeat this original purpose?

Also, to point out to whoever said it wasn't well publicised. That's shear nonsense. When it came out, it was everywhere, and I'm fairly certain there was a large thread here on the matter.

spurious

A little bird tells me that History and Geography may become a lot more like ESS (or what they were supposed to be in the old new JC) in terms of project work that will be assessed and externally monitored and so the need for ESS may not be there.

It would leave the ESS general curricular area to become two possible short courses - Environmental Studies, which would likely be taken by kids who are aiming for Geog/Bio/Home Ec. in the LC and Social Studies which might be taken by Geog/History/'Politics and Society (if it ever comes in)' students.

I find the short course area quite interesting. As long as the students can see a follow on at LC (or a general usefulness in life) for the subject areas, they should thrive.

I like the proposed changes. Much of the JC curriculum is exactly as I was taught in the Inter. Cert. in the last millennium. My only beef with the plans at the moment would be the (apparently) unmonitored assessment arrangements.

richiek67

I think also a big thing as someone mentioned there was the effect that this will have on the leaving cert standard.

Is this radical change of the JC not going to have a huge impact on the standard of the Leaving cert too?? The junior cert is supposed to be a foundation for the leaving cert and yet, I believe, when one of the ministers was asked about this they said it had not entered discussions yet.
My biggest fear as that they will F*** the whole thing up. I don't like the way the standard in schools is falling and falling. Only yesterday I heard in the news that the standard for some subjects in Ireland was one of the lowest in the EU. Seems to me that the whole social aspect , in terms of 2 parents working, has quite a big effect in children's education in terms of someone having the energy to help out with homework. This , in my mind, seems to be winning out, seen by the general drop in standard in exams. The government then seem to then think that this justifies watering down the complexities of the exam content. Perhaps I'm wrong. Does anyone else see this ?

seavill

Irish students scored significantly above the international average in both subjects; they were placed 17th in maths, and 22nd in science.
In maths, Ireland had greater numbers of higher performing pupils and fewer lower performing pupils than average. More than twice the percentage of students in Ireland reached the Advanced International Benchmark (the highest category of performance) in mathematics than was the international norm- 9% in Ireland compared to 4% internationally. Fewer Irish pupils failed to reach the Low International Benchmark than pupils in other countries – 6% in Ireland compared to 10% internationally.
In science, 7% of Irish students reached the Advanced International Benchmark compared to an international average of 5%. At 8%, the percentage of Irish students who did not reach the Low International Benchmark was the same as the international average.
Despite these positive outcomes, students in a number of countries scored significantly better than students in Ireland in both the mathematics and science tests.

http://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Press-Releases/2012-Press-Releases/PR2-%202012-%2012-%2011.html

richiek67

Britain have done a U turn on what we now seem to think is a good idea for the future junior cert. So the research on this type of self assessment has been proven over there to be no good.