Protest against "anti austerity protesters".

DarkDusk

AdamD wrote: »

20 billion isn't nothing..for 20 billion to be made up in revenue our revenue would need to grow by 66%, that is not nothing.

I've been doing a few calculations and they do not add up to this 66% required revenue growth. What figure are you using for the current revenue?

Where has the OP gone? Is he hiding?

Anyone

Seaneh wrote: »

No, I said they don't give a **** about OUR budget deficit, that isn't the reason they aren't lending to us at a rate we can afford.

But wait....they are lending to us.....we have successfully borrowed this year from the markets twice at very affordable rates. While they wouldnt give us those rates a few years ago.....why have things changed?

Seaneh

Anyone wrote: »

But wait....they are lending to us.....we have successfully borrowed this year from the markets twice at very affordable rates. While they wouldnt give us those rates a few years ago.....why have things changed?

Are you actually trying to claim that if we hadn't incurred the bank debt that the markets still wouldn't have lent to us?

Because that goes against everything every financial institution, economist and their dog has told us.

DarkDusk

Just to let you know that the US has a $1 trillion deficit. Imagine if they were in our situation and had no currency to print!

It would take only a quarter of what the US prints every month to cover our annual deficit.

Seaneh

DarkDusk wrote: »

Just to let you know that the US has a $1 trillion deficit. Imagine if they were in our situation and had no currency to print!

It would take only a quarter of what the US prints every month to cover our annual deficit.

1.3 trillion actually, and 14trillion of debt.

Anyone

Seaneh wrote: »

Are you actually trying to claim that if we hadn't incurred the bank debt that the markets still wouldn't have lent to us?

Because that goes against everything every financial institution, economist and their dog has told us.

Stop trying to change the subject....you said markets dont give a shít about deficits, I disagreed. The bank debt is still there, yet markets are lending to us, and our debt is trading well. Why is this happening? Is it by any chance due to the fact that we are getting a grip on our deficit?

Tiddlypeeps

Seaneh wrote: »

There are other options, which would be a lot better for the nation in the long run.

Seaneh wrote: »

Doesn't change the fact that the markets would have been more than happy to loan it to us as a rate we could afford. And given us a lot more time to fix the problem.


Instead we are pawning everything we have to pay back a loan shark.

What are our other options? Where do we get the money?

Whatever about mistakes that have been made in the past (and there have been many). What are our choices now. How do we fix this?

I don't like austerity, nobody does, but I don't see any other option. We cannot afford to keep going if don't find a way to pull more money in or to reduce our spend.

We aren't likely to change Europe's mind on how to handle this and convince them to print more money than they think they need too. Even if they did it would just devalue our currency to a point where it would severely effect our imports/exports to countries outside the Euro.

DarkDusk

Seaneh wrote: »

1.3 trillion actually, and 14trillion of debt.

16 trillion!

So, let's compare Euro countries and the US. What's missing here is central bank intervention by the ECB. Intervention, imo, will have to happen when the situation gets worse, which it will.

Sorry for changing the topic, but I don't think that enough people are worrying about WW3...

scopper

In Iceland they simply jailed the bankers, let the bad banks fail, and let things go back to normal. No hospitals shutting down all over the place.

Do you honestly think austerity is there to keep things going? Get real. It's just a good old fashioned government-business pact to transfer the pain to the middle-classes.

I don't mind counter-protests, but this one is just silly.

DarkDusk

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

Even if they did it would just devalue our currency to a point where it would severely effect our imports/exports to countries outside the Euro.

The world is in a currency war, and the Euro is not participating! Dollars, Yen, Yuan are all being devalued by their central banks - it's a race to the bottom.

Re Scooper: Yes, Iceland did the right thing - look at them now! If Greece defaults on their debt, which they will eventually have to do, Spain, Portugal and us will follow them.

Interesting interview: http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/icelandic-economy-minister-explains-reaction-to-finance-crisis-a-869351.html

Tiddlypeeps

DarkDusk wrote: »

The world is in a currency war, and the Euro is not participating! Dollars, Yen, Yuan are all being devalued by their central banks - it's a race to the bottom.

I don't see Sterling listed there. Britain are our main trading partners. The strength of the Sterling against the Euro is already having a negative effect on our economy, higher food prices, lower return on exports etc. That would get significantly worse if the EU decided to go mad printing lots of money.

Anyway when I mentioned the effect on overseas trade it was just an after thought, we don't have control over our currency. We don't have the power to demand more money be printed.

The only other option I can think of is to return to the Punt, but I couldn't even being to fathom what kind of effect that would have on our economy. Someone more educated in economics than I might be able to shed some light.

oppenheimer1

scopper wrote: »

In Iceland they simply jailed the bankers, let the bad banks fail, and let things go back to normal. No hospitals shutting down all over the place.

Do you honestly think austerity is there to keep things going? Get real. It's just a good old fashioned government-business pact to transfer the pain to the middle-classes.

I don't mind counter-protests, but this one is just silly.

Do you actually think the Iceland situation has been resolved?

The owe billions to the UK and Netherlands and they both want their money back - Its not over yet for Iceland, not by a long shot.

DarkDusk

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

I don't see Sterling listed there. Britain are our main trading partners. The strength of the Sterling against the Euro is already having a negative effect on our economy, higher food prices, lower return on exports etc. That would get significantly worse if the EU decided to go mad printing lots of money.

I don't suggest going "mad" printing, but do it in a controlled way by buying up individual countries' bonds. It's not a matter of if but when they start doing this as matters get worse for the Eurozone and world in general. Printing will prolong the time before any disaster happens again in the financial system.

There is no recovery, and there will never be one with the attitude world governments have towards the crisis atm. Fiat currencies have never lasted long, usually 50 years or so at the most. The US Dollar is around that age now, so it's time is up. When the dollar collapses, the world economy will collapse.

DarkDusk

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Do you actually think the Iceland situation has been resolved?

The owe billions to the UK and Netherlands and they both want their money back - Its not over yet for Iceland, not by a long shot.

China wants over a trillion back from the US, too. Do you think they'll ever get it? haha

SafeSurfer

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

Who is up for starting an anti anti austerity protesters protest. These muppets are trying to destroy our country. I for one like that our hospitals and schools are still open, I appreciate that we still have guards doing their job. If these protesters get their way we are fukced. They p1ss and moan about austerity when there is no other option, it has to be done for the good of our nation long term.

So you are going to have a counter demonstration against the carers outside the Dail, with their relatives in wheelchairs, with dementia, parkinsons etc?

What will your placards say?

"One adult nappy per person per day is plenty".

or

"I work 5 days a week, where is my respite grant?"

UCDVet

Might as well protest against the weather.

Dyr

I'd say some people fantasise about being spit roasted by eamon and enda while angela films it for profit.

Probably not enough people to organise a march though

laoch na mona

people have a right to stand up to unfare cuts they could save money other ways first

KyussBishop

Anyone wrote: »

Heres some simple economics that people seem to ignore on here:

Income-Expenditure=Surplus/Deficit.

What are we still in a gold standard, where the money supply is locked at a specific rate?

Your economic knowledge is simply outdated; the EU is completely capable of using money creation to fund spending, in non-inflationary ways.

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

What are our other options? Where do we get the money?

Whatever about mistakes that have been made in the past (and there have been many). What are our choices now. How do we fix this?

I don't like austerity, nobody does, but I don't see any other option. We cannot afford to keep going if don't find a way to pull more money in or to reduce our spend.

We aren't likely to change Europe's mind on how to handle this and convince them to print more money than they think they need too. Even if they did it would just devalue our currency to a point where it would severely effect our imports/exports to countries outside the Euro.

Money creation does not inherently devalue a currency; that would happen in a gold standard, but not with a fiat currency.

Money creation does not automatically create inflation, and does not automatically devalue currency; it is what you do with the money that determines if and how much inflation/devaluation happens, and there are perfectly non-inflationary ways to use created money, especially in economic downturns.

If the EU does not do this eventually, we are going to be destroyed economically.

Piliger

Yada yada yada ... it's always about someone else paying. Not us poor victims ... pick some other poor victims because we can make more noise..... yeah.

Sadly in every society there is an element that feeds on complaining and envy. They are never happy. They live on whining and moaning and bitching about something. And if there is nothing to bitch about ... then they make something up.

They haven't a clue how an economy or even a corner shop works. They don't understand money and they certainly haven't a clue about even the most basic workings of banks. They don't really understand much at all except their own misery.

We need to marginalise these people who love nothing better than post BS all over the web.

Thankfully the vast majority of people in Ireland are working. We have a fantastic country, the best in the world. We have the politicians that the people vote for and if people don't like them then they are free to stand for election instead of just lashing out like spoiled little knackers.

Ghost Buster

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

Who is up for starting an anti anti austerity protesters protest. These muppets are trying to destroy our country. I for one like that our hospitals and schools are still open, I appreciate that we still have guards doing their job. If these protesters get their way we are fukced. They p1ss and moan about austerity when there is no other option, it has to be done for the good of our nation long term.

There are already people protesting against these people. they are called politicians and bankers. They are well paid and funded and Im sure will prevail alongside you...

Dyr

Piliger wrote: »

They haven't a clue how an economy or even a corner shop works. They don't understand money and they certainly haven't a clue about even the most basic workings of banks.

Neither did the bankers and neither did you

Ghost Buster

SafeSurfer wrote: »

So you are going to have a counter demonstration against the carers outside the Dail, with their relatives in wheelchairs, with dementia, parkinsons etc?

What will your placards say?

"One adult nappy per person per day is plenty".

or

"I work 5 days a week, where is my respite grant?"

Piliger wrote: »

Yada yada yada ... it's always about someone else paying. Not us poor victims ... pick some other poor victims because we can make more noise..... yeah.

Sadly in every society there is an element that feeds on complaining and envy. They are never happy. They live on whining and moaning and bitching about something. And if there is nothing to bitch about ... then they make something up.

They haven't a clue how an economy or even a corner shop works. They don't understand money and they certainly haven't a clue about even the most basic workings of banks. They don't really understand much at all except their own misery.

We need to marginalise these people who love nothing better than post BS all over the web.

Thankfully the vast majority of people in Ireland are working. We have a fantastic country, the best in the world. We have the politicians that the people vote for and if people don't like them then they are free to stand for election instead of just lashing out like spoiled little knackers.

Spoiled little knackers like the carers outside the Dail? OK:D

SafeSurfer

Piliger wrote: »

Yada yada yada ... it's always about someone else paying. Not us poor victims ... pick some other poor victims because we can make more noise..... yeah.

We need to marginalise these people who love nothing better than post BS all over the web.

Thankfully the vast majority of people in Ireland are working. We have a fantastic country, the best in the world. We have the politicians that the people vote for and if people don't like them then they are free to stand for election instead of just lashing out like spoiled little knackers.

This is pure BS. The people like carers who are protesting are already marginalised.

The marginalised don't have a strong voice. The sectors that remain protected are the sectors who can afford lobbyists and who make corporate donations to influence political decision making. Do you honestly think that the government could not introduce legislation to tackle the pensions of bailed out banks? Do you think that the government could not change the law on upward only rent reviews, like they promised. Do you think the government should not have introduced a financial transaction tax that would have raised up to €750 million on the very sector that the taxpayer bailed out?

Its a cliche but the Golden Rule is true. He who has the gold makes the rules.

dvpower

Seaneh wrote: »

I said 20billion is nothing.

The cuts should be fairly painless so.

tayto lover

dvpower wrote: »

The cuts should be fairly painless so.

Tell that to the Carers who are saving the Govt millions. Tell them they have no pain. Tell them to get back to working for a pittance while that same Govt claim for their expenses which they don't incur.

Mark my words, the Carers will win out in this.

Mahogany

What kind of society are we living in when numerous young men and women are being refused grants and people doing NOTHING are getting paid 100 quid a week to sit on their hole, buying games and clothes with it (survival money?)

hatrickpatrick

Let me ask a single question. Just one.
Are there honestly people who think it's in any way just, fair or right that carers and pensioners are being cut while Sean FitzPatrick still has enough taxpayer funded cash to fly over to England for BOD's party, or while Bertie Ahern is still getting paid "expenses" (seriously, WTFH?!?!?!?!?) from the taxpayer?

It was never about not cutting certain areas, it's about who pays first, and who pays more.
There's nothing remotely unreasonable about demanding that the people whose direct irresponsibility and in many cases downright criminality caused the crisis should lost the shirt off their back before one pensioner has to skip a meal because of cuts. Nothing whatsoever.

Protesting against the complete lack of justice in our society is something that everybody should be on board with. If you're opposed to it, what you're effectively saying is "I think Bertie should keep getting his expenses and Seanie shouldn't be pursued for the fraud he committed". That's what you're saying.

Do you really believe in the latter two statements?