Arsenal vs WBA

Soups123

How is the performance today?

Fuzzy_Dunlop

Soups123 wrote: »

How is the performance today?

Much much improved.. Actually enjoyable for the first time in a while.

Mickeroo

Oh god Podolski.

dvemail

Bullet there from Poldi.

robby^5

Refereeing decisions won us the match today. We wasted a lot of great chances but overall a much better performance than last week. Onwards and upwards.

Mickeroo

Well, thank feck for that.

keano_afc

Immense from Wilshere, fantastic performance.

jester77

AdamD wrote: »

Wilshere head and shoulders above the rest

Except here

Paully D

greendom

Might have just clipped Cazorla's shin with his big toe nail

KingdomYid

Paully D wrote: »

awful cheating there.

peabutler

KingdomYid wrote: »

awful cheating there.

Yeah, heard he moved in beside Gareth during the week there.

greendom

he got a lot of credit when he stayed on his feet and set up the goal for Giroud against Spurs, so it's only fair that he takes some flack today.

KingdomYid

peabutler wrote: »

Yeah, heard he moved in beside Gareth during the week there.

Haha, was just waiting for someone to mention Bale. Yes so because Bale has dived it makes it ok for Carzola to, great logic.

peabutler

I don't think any Arsenal fan here or on the superthread excused the dive, shame the same can't be said of Spurs fans every second week.

KingdomYid

peabutler wrote: »

I don't think any Arsenal fan here or on the superthread excused the dive, shame the same can't be said of Spurs fans every second week.

ok you win, your fans are more honest

greendom

KingdomYid wrote: »

Haha, was just waiting for someone to mention Bale. Yes so because Bale has dived it makes it ok for Carzola to, great logic.

he's not in Bale's league when it comes to diving. Cazorla cheated today - Bale is a cheat.

Underground

KingdomYid wrote: »

Haha, was just waiting for someone to mention Bale. Yes so because Bale has dived it makes it ok for Carzola to, great logic.

Don't think anybody mentioned that.

Think it has more to do with people in glass houses throwing stones and all that lark.

KingdomYid

greendom wrote: »

he's not in Bale's league when it comes to diving. Cazorla cheated today - Bale is a cheat.

F*ckin bull****, a cheat is a cheat and both are cheats. It is not a contest between them for feck sake.

greendom

KingdomYid wrote: »

F*ckin bull****, a cheat is a cheat and both are cheats. It is not a contest between them for feck sake.

Naaah - 1 swallow doesn't make a summer.

KingdomYid

greendom wrote: »

Naaah - 1 swallow doesn't make a summer.

Whatever, can't be bothered arguing about it.

KingdomYid

Underground wrote: »

Don't think anybody mentioned that.

Think it has more to do with people in glass houses throwing stones and all that lark.

Well in fairness I never mentioned Bale either or was not throwing stones, I simply made a comment about the video in the thread. I have never once defended Bale when he has been guilty of going over easy.

.jacksparrow.

KingdomYid wrote: »

Whatever, can't be bothered arguing about it.

Nothing really to argue about,bale has been diving for years,we will watch cazorla and see if he does it again,but for the time been bale is a proven cheat,the judgement is out on cazorla.

Corholio

Has Bale had an awfully blatant a dive as that? The ones in the last few weeks certainly weren't, don't know about further back then that. Cheating is cheating though, Cazorla should hang his head just like any other.

Andre80Johnson

KingdomYid wrote: »

awful cheating there.

He's only trying to protect himself from an injury, if it should happen.

greendom

Corholio wrote: »

Has Bale had an awfully blatant a dive as that? The ones in the last few weeks certainly weren't, don't know about further back then that. Cheating is cheating though, Cazorla should hang his head just like any other.

You can't compare the hardened criminal, the career thief, with the one-off opportunist.

AdamD

Corholio wrote: »

Has Bale had an awfully blatant a dive as that? The ones in the last few weeks certainly weren't, don't know about further back then that. Cheating is cheating though, Cazorla should hang his head just like any other.

I'd say so

gosplan

Neither Cazorla or Bales fault. As long as it's permitted in the game, it's a successful strategy and must be followed.

I mean, if Arsenal kick on and find some form from this and win a few in a row, how big is that dive? He had to do it.

Samaras the other night, that was what, a 20 million euro dive??

They have a professional responsibility to do it.

Leiva

gosplan wrote: »

They have a professional responsibility to do it.

Nope.

They have a professional responsibility to fück right off !!!

Never accept it. What's the point then? May aswell just throw out the rule book and have an everything goes then.

greendom

Leiva wrote: »

Nope.

They have a professional responsibility to fück right off !!!

Never accept it. What's the point then? May aswell just throw out the rule book and have an everything goes then.

It's no different to the professional foul though is it ? Not within the rules of the game but any central defender will bring down a forward if he's through on goal

.jacksparrow.

Leiva wrote: »

Nope.

They have a professional responsibility to fück right off !!!

Never accept it. What's the point then? May aswell just throw out the rule book and have an everything goes then.

Goes back to the henry handball,everyone here saying if Keane had the chance he would do it,and we wouldn't give out.

Did henry get punished? No,so that sends out a signal it will be tolerated.

It will keep happening until they start punishing players but we seen what happend when they tried to do it to eduardo years ago,you can't just single a player and make him the scapegoat.

Leiva

greendom wrote: »

It's no different to the professional foul though is it ? Not within the rules of the game but any central defender will bring down a forward if he's through on goal

I would say the majority of defenders in that situation would have an honest attempt at getting the ball, but they get it wrong and they are off..thems the risks of such a tackle/decision.

Unfortunately diving doesn't have the same attempt/risk/consequences.

Until players start getting sent off for "professional" diving then it will continue.

Corholio

greendom wrote: »

It's no different to the professional foul though is it ? Not within the rules of the game but any central defender will bring down a forward if he's through on goal

If you think it's the same thing then fair enough, but it's a completely different level IMO. The defender would commit the foul, which do happen in the game hence the yellow and red card system, and more than likely get sent off, a dive has no place at all in football but sadly it's becoming more and more accepted and slowly moving into the dreaded 'part of the game' category.

On the Bale thing, thanks to the poster who put up that Bale dive, awful stuff.

greendom

Corholio wrote: »

If you think it's the same thing then fair enough, but it's a completely different level IMO. The defender would commit the foul, which do happen in the game hence the yellow and red card system, and more than likely get sent off, a dive has no place at all in football but sadly it's becoming more and more accepted and slowly moving into the dreaded 'part of the game' category.

On the Bale thing, thanks to the poster who put up that Bale dive, awful stuff.

imo if the dive has no place in football then neither does the professional foul. In fact the dive is the skilful footballer's response to fouling.

brianregan09

Yeah but why make a scapegoat of Cazorla there are more out there who do this way more frequently go away lads will ye

gosplan

Leiva wrote: »

Nope.

They have a professional responsibility to fück right off !!!

Never accept it. What's the point then? May aswell just throw out the rule book and have an everything goes then.

I agree with you but I think you're missing my point.

If someone is being paid 80K+ per week to play and win football matches and diving is a viable strategy to gain an advantage, then it's their job to do it.

Until the powers that be ensure it's not a viable strategy(as they did with prefessional fouls), players have to do it.

I don't accept it as morally correct or in the spirit of the game (what that is though is another debate entirely) but i accept it as the correct course of action.

Take Samaras as it's a really good example. Celtic are though to the knock out stage of the CL because he took a dive (obviously because they beat Barca and were generally rather good and all as well). But he's employed by Celtic to win them matches and progress them in competitions. What he did was 100% correct.

Another good example of a similar moral prediciment was Suarez in the world cup quarter final. It was the correct course of action.


As regards the diving vrs professional foul thing. I always wondered why forwards aren't held more culpable for fouling the defender prior to scoring. Like Suarez dragging back the defender he couldn't outrun the other night when he was running onto a through ball (I'm not picking on the guy, it's just the most recent example). Anyway, it's basically the same situation but instead of a foul to deny an obvious goalscoring opportunity, it's a foul to create one. If successful they both result in a one goal difference but one gets you a straight red whereas the other nothing. Morally as well, they're kind of considered 'cheeky' fouls ... but what happens when they score?

Corholio

greendom wrote: »

imo if the dive has no place in football then neither does the professional foul. In fact the dive is the skilful footballer's response to fouling.

Quite possibly the most ridiculous thing i've read on this forum.

Fouling period doesn't have a 'place' in any sport, but there are misplaced tackles and also blatant professional fouls, for which mostly they get punished for. Diver's rarely get punished, and in fact get rewarded for cheating

Corholio

brianregan09 wrote: »

Yeah but why make a scapegoat of Cazorla there are more out there who do this way more frequently go away lads will ye

Scapegoat? People are just criticising him for diving/cheating, who has said anything more?

Corholio

gosplan wrote: »

I agree with you but I think you're missing my point.

If someone is being paid 80K+ per week to play and win football matches and diving is a viable strategy to gain an advantage, then it's their job to do it.

Until the powers that be ensure it's not a viable strategy(as they did with prefessional fouls), players have to do it.

I don't accept it as morally correct or in the spirit of the game (what that is though is another debate entirely) but i accept it as the correct course of action.

Take Samaras as it's a really good example. Celtic are though to the knock out stage of the CL because he took a dive (obviously because they beat Barca and were generally rather good and all as well). But he's employed by Celtic to win them matches and progress them in competitions. What he did was 100% correct.

Another good example of a similar moral prediciment was Suarez in the world cup quarter final. It was the correct course of action.


As regards the diving vrs professional foul thing. I always wondered why forwards aren't held more culpable for fouling the defender prior to scoring. Like Suarez dragging back the defender he couldn't outrun the other night when he was running onto a through ball (I'm not picking on the guy, it's just the most recent example). Anyway, it's basically the same situation but instead of a foul to deny an obvious goalscoring opportunity, it's a foul to create one. If successful they both result in a one goal difference but one gets you a straight red whereas the other nothing. Morally as well, they're kind of considered 'cheeky' fouls ... but what happens when they score?

I don't agree with this part, you can siphon anything down to this 'business' side of it, employed by etc, but if you genuinely think a player diving did the right thing then fair enough. That means nothing a player does that ends up helping his team can be wrong or incorrect. I'm not naive to think players don't do these things, but I don't accept that players should almost be commended for it just because they are 'employed' by a club.

greendom

Corholio wrote: »

Quite possibly the most ridiculous thing i've read on this forum.

Fouling period doesn't have a 'place' in any sport, but there are misplaced tackles and also blatant professional fouls, for which mostly they get punished for. Diver's rarely get punished, and in fact get rewarded for cheating

Every time a player fouls another and gets away with it or even gets booked but allows the defence to re-organise the fouler is rewarded too.

Have you read Gary Neville's autobiography about how he and his team-mates deliberately and aggresively hounded Reyes out of his normal game. He was never the same player after that. It was gamemanship and beyond by Man Utd and I think diving is a legitimate response to such action (not that Man U players are averse to diving either).

A skilful footballer's game is all about deception - making the opponent think he's going to go one way when in fact he goes the other for example. Going down under the lightest touch is just an extension of that imo.

Corholio

greendom wrote: »

Every time a player fouls another and gets away with it or even gets booked but allows the defence to re-organise the fouler is rewarded too.

Have you read Gary Neville's autobiography about how he and his team-mates deliberately and aggresively hounded Reyes out of his normal game. He was never the same player after that. It was gamemanship and beyond by Man Utd and I think diving is a legitimate response to such action (not that Man U players are averse to diving either).

A skilful footballer's game is all about deception - making the opponent think he's going to go one way when in fact he goes the other for example. Going down under the lightest touch is just an extension of that imo.

Going down like that is cheating, not an extension of anything. Do you really believe what you wrote, honestly? So only skillful players dive?

Reyes inability to perform for Arsenal was a lot more than just 1 match against United, I haven't read his autobiography but if Neville claims that he's absolutely banana's. A diver dives to try and win a decision for his team by cheating, it really is as simple as that. Players who have dived have been players who wouldn't directly get special attention, they are players who would get the attention, it's all kinds. That's why, IMO, it being a 'legitimate' response is nonsense IMO.

It just goes to show how acceptance of diving has slowly crept in, I never thought I'd ever have to argue the point to be honest, as much as I respect someones opinion if they honestly believe it.

.jacksparrow.

Thierry henry.everyone said Keane wound do the same if reversed.

EdenHazard

greendom wrote: »

Every time a player fouls another and gets away with it or even gets booked but allows the defence to re-organise the fouler is rewarded too.

Have you read Gary Neville's autobiography about how he and his team-mates deliberately and aggresively hounded Reyes out of his normal game. He was never the same player after that. It was gamemanship and beyond by Man Utd and I think diving is a legitimate response to such action (not that Man U players are averse to diving either).

A skilful footballer's game is all about deception - making the opponent think he's going to go one way when in fact he goes the other for example. Going down under the lightest touch is just an extension of that imo.

Not only skillful players dive? If some skillful player dives and a workman like box to box midfielder divies, in your view can you categories the centre mid as being 'more' of a cheater?

Optimalprimerib

peabutler wrote: »

I don't think any Arsenal fan here or on the superthread excused the dive, shame the same can't be said of Spurs fans every second week.

Diving is embarrassing at this stage. As a spurs fan I have never excused bale or any spurs player of diving. Bale thoroughly deserves his rep of diving and is getting his comeuppance now.

In terms of cazorlas dive, it most certainly was one but it was a clumsy swing by Reid that lead to it so the ref had to go on instinct. I wonder will wenger get his csi team out again to find a strand of reids boot on cazorlas sock.

One way to cut it out maybe would be if a dive leads to a scored penalty or goal, it should be looked at retrospectively by an impartial committee and if it is deemed as a dive, that player should get a 3 match ban.

gosplan

Optimalprimerib wrote:

One way to cut it out maybe would be if a dive leads to a scored penalty or goal, it should be looked at retrospectively by an impartial committee and if it is deemed as a dive, that player should get a 3 match ban.

This.

I get them not wanting to stop the game but surely if they can rescind, or give a ban for fouling/violent conduct, they can surely do the same for diving.

greendom

Corholio wrote: »

Going down like that is cheating, not an extension of anything. Do you really believe what you wrote, honestly? So only skillful players dive?

Reyes inability to perform for Arsenal was a lot more than just 1 match against United, I haven't read his autobiography but if Neville claims that he's absolutely banana's. A diver dives to try and win a decision for his team by cheating, it really is as simple as that. Players who have dived have been players who wouldn't directly get special attention, they are players who would get the attention, it's all kinds. That's why, IMO, it being a 'legitimate' response is nonsense IMO.

It just goes to show how acceptance of diving has slowly crept in, I never thought I'd ever have to argue the point to be honest, as much as I respect someones opinion if they honestly believe it.

I put it on a par with a professional foul. Both are cheating and are wrong. But just as i can understand the deliberate foul to stop a good advantage for an attacking team, so I can understand the dive to make the most of an attacking situation.

greendom

EdenHazard wrote: »

Not only skillful players dive? If some skillful player dives and a workman like box to box midfielder divies, in your view can you categories the centre mid as being 'more' of a cheater?

No but as a rule the more skilful player is better at it. Did you see the awful dive by the West Brom player yesterday. I'd call that dive "workmanlike"

.jacksparrow.

Anyone see delphs dive for villa?worst than Santi.