Nissan Leaf Owners Please

After reading the U.S Leaf forum it seems accepted by the general Leaf community that the average leaf consumption is 3.5 miles per kw/hr so based on 22 kw/hrs of usable battery in the Leaf that means 22kw/hrs x 3.5 miles per kw/hr =77 miles range, about 8 miles short of my needs. I'm not sure if that includes winter driving.

I need a minimum of 25 kw/hrs real range, or is it as simple as that ? So that would mean if work installed a charger all I would need is 1 hr to charge, or maybe 5 mins on a fast charger, which there are 0 I can use on my route, and as the battery ages and range drops I would need to charge more.

What can I expect my usable KW/hr to be in cold weather, or does the battery heater in the 2012 model make a difference ?

I need 85 ish miles at a good decent speed. Say I could live with 65 mph ?

If the job works out and I'm made permanent, I might take the plunge on either a Leaf or Zoe, Zoe comes with 2 years free battery rental.

I would save around 4,000 a year between petrol costs, maintenance and road tax. To be honest I'd rather spend that on a new car because the way it is now with petrol prices I can't buy a new car and pay for petrol or diesel, nor would I and I won't buy any new car with VRT, (Government take note)

In 5 years that's 20 grand and trade in would be around 5-6 grand in the Prius. After 5 years or 100,000 K miles I'm sure the battery won't be perfect and will have the option of new battery or new car. If the batteries prove cheap after that then the value of 2nd hand E.V's will sky rocket.

You can't lease a leaf in Ireland that I'm aware and with my mileage it would be expensive anyway, the only thing is after I hop into a new car. You wouldn't get a 5 year lease anyway.

I've thought about converting the Prius to LPG but I would still be spending 1500 a year, half of what I'm spending now. On the other hand I wouldn't have a new car to pay for.

Swings and roundabouts, I would like a new Leaf anyway and the 2013 model has upgrades that are attractive.

BrianD3

Re: driving at 65 mph, if you knocked a few mph off that it could make a big difference. Have you seen this thread on the predicted range of the Fluence ZE at various speeds on a flat motorway
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=78508278

Even if the range computer is pretty inaccurate it is interesting I think.
101 km at 120 km/h
134 km at 110 km/h
176 km at 96 km/h
220 km at 90 km/h

Obvioulsy ICE cars also have poor economy/range at faster speeds but the difference is not this dramatic for any cars I've tested.

BrianD3

BrianD3 wrote: »

Re: driving at 65 mph, if you knocked a few mph off that it could make a big difference. Have you seen this thread on the predicted range of the Fluence ZE at various speeds on a flat motorway
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=78508278

Even if the range computer is pretty inaccurate it is interesting I think.
101 km at 120 km/h
134 km at 110 km/h
176 km at 96 km/h
220 km at 90 km/h

Obvioulsy ICE cars also have poor economy/range at faster speeds but the difference is not this dramatic for any cars I've tested.

Interesting, Brian. Thanks,

So I would make my 84 ish round trip if driving at 96 km/hr that's 59 mph.

My commute involves driving on the old N9 to Kilcullen, speed 50-60 mph, depending on who is in front, then motorway M9 M7 until kingswood, usually 70 mph is only achievable on the Kilcullen part of the motorway. Coming home it's 50-60 mph .

The thing is will I get that range in winter with reasonable heat on and how much kw/hrs will I loose with a cold battery ?

The Leaf's range indicator is supposed to be rubbish, I wonder what real kw/hrs are actually left when the range indicator says only 20 kms or whatever ?

September1

Heater can easily take 3kW hence two hours of commuting would be like 6kWh, which has to deducted from 90% * 22kWh so 13.8 to be used so at this economy 48mi. Heating problem must be solved if you want to do 84mi in winter.

September1

September1 wrote: »

Heater can easily take 3kW hence two hours of commuting would be like 6kWh, which has to deducted from 90% * 22kWh so 13.8 to be used so at this economy 48mi. Heating problem must be solved if you want to do 84mi in winter.

What is your figure of 13.8 ? 22-6 = 16 kw/hrs ?

Hmmm. My commute lasts roughly 50 mins up and maybe an hour home, so that would be slightly less than 6 kw/hrs.

That would be less than 4 miles off my journey if the average Leaf consumption is 3.5 kw/hrs per mile ? would mean the heater alone would consume say 6 kw/hrs .

That is not as bad as I thought.

The new heat pump in the 2013 Leaf is supposed to consume 1 kw for 3 kw of heat out.

BrianD3

Deleted User wrote: »

That would be less than 4 miles off my journey if the average Leaf consumption is 3.5 kw/hrs per mile ? would mean the heater alone would consume say 6 kw/hrs .

Would it not be 21 miles off your range? 6 kw/hrs x 3.5 miles.

BrianD3

BrianD3 wrote: »

Would it not be 21 miles off your range? 6 kw/hrs x 3.5 miles.

Yes indeed Brian, thanks for that correction!

If the new heat pump in the new Leaf can output 3kw of heat with only 1kw input then that would mean 7 miles reduced range. That's a big difference.

Of course Zoe will have the heat pump too.

September1

I think you forgot to increase range lost due to increased resistance of battery, this would be 10% or more in cold weather. 10% of 22 is 2.2 hence usable capacity is 19.8 kWhr minus 6kWhr lost on heating is only 13.8 kWhr.

Another question is do you really want to arrive home on turtle mode? Because that is what assumption of using all capacity means. That is good reason to maybe save another 1 kWhr...

TBH heat pump in new LEAF is not full story, they also added extra insulation! ICE cars get a lot of free heat, so there are no such considerations for them. I'm considering retrofitting some insulation under roof and on door - this should give more range in winter anyway.

You need a power socket at work, this solves all your problems.

September1

September1 wrote: »

I think you forgot to increase range lost due to increased resistance of battery, this would be 10% or more in cold weather. 10% of 22 is 2.2 hence usable capacity is 19.8 kWhr minus 6kWhr lost on heating is only 13.8 kWhr.

Another question is do you really want to arrive home on turtle mode? Because that is what assumption of using all capacity means. That is good reason to maybe save another 1 kWhr...

TBH heat pump in new LEAF is not full story, they also added extra insulation! ICE cars get a lot of free heat, so there are no such considerations for them. I'm considering retrofitting some insulation under roof and on door - this should give more range in winter anyway.

You need a power socket at work, this solves all your problems.

Thanks for that september1. I wasn't forgetting increased resistance, I just didn't have the actual data to calculate.

I need at least 25 kw/hrs for my commute.

So if the new leaf consumes 1 kw for heat, then that would mean 2 kw/hrs for heating or 7 miles - 10% in cold = 63 miles range even with the heat pump. And that's probably at 60 mph excluding wind.

I wonder if the Zoe uses a different chemistry ?

Indeed a work charger answers all my problems but I'm not sure I could convince them to install one. If they could give me a definite yes or no it would help.

Anyone driving to the Luas should seriously consider it.

If I could charge at a fast charger then I would need to replace just 7 kw/hrs of battery for the new Leaf that would be under 10 mins for a charge, and I wouldn't be stressing the battery as much by not fast charging for longer.

September1 have you forgotten that the 2012 leaf has a battery heater to help with that 10% loss of capacity in cold weather ? maybe yours doesn't ?

September1

I think you refer to winter pack and I'm not sure that arrived on 2012 LEAFs in UK&I - but anyway I have first generation one from March 2011. You do not need work charger, you just need any kind of accessible power socket - then you can charge LEAF with 10A, those cables are now much lower on price then they used to be so if you buy LEAF that would be a must.

ZOE might be LG Chem, but not 100% sure. It is smaller car and in case if you care about economy that is always better - should give better range and fast A/C is awesome.

Fast charger is great, when you need it in winter it would additionally heat the battery so it would help overall. It also gives a lot of peace of mind, when you know you can alter your plans regardless of SoC. When ESB delivers whole network of CHAdeMO chargers, LEAF would be even better car than it is now. Note already network is good and LEAF owners travel long journeys around country.

September1

September1 wrote: »

I think you refer to winter pack and I'm not sure that arrived on 2012 LEAFs in UK&I - but anyway I have first generation one from March 2011. You do not need work charger, you just need any kind of accessible power socket - then you can charge LEAF with 10A, those cables are now much lower on price then they used to be so if you buy LEAF that would be a must.

ZOE might be LG Chem, but not 100% sure. It is smaller car and in case if you care about economy that is always better - should give better range and fast A/C is awesome.

Fast charger is great, when you need it in winter it would additionally heat the battery so it would help overall. It also gives a lot of peace of mind, when you know you can alter your plans regardless of SoC. When ESB delivers whole network of CHAdeMO chargers, LEAF would be even better car than it is now. Note already network is good and LEAF owners travel long journeys around country.

Network maybe good around Dublin for fast DC but for instance if you were going to Waterford, would you make it to Kilkenny at 100 KPH for a fast charge ?

I do find it very inconvenient the fact there are going to be almost no fast chargers on the motorway network because of the lack of facilities.

September1

Deleted User wrote: »

Network maybe good around Dublin for fast DC but for instance if you were going to Waterford, would you make it to Kilkenny at 100 KPH for a fast charge ?

I do find it very inconvenient the fact there are going to be almost no fast chargers on the motorway network because of the lack of facilities.

No, you must take longer route (extra 3kms according to Google) and charge in Gorey and then reach Waterford.

paddy147

Dont buy an electric car.

Problem solved

paddy147

paddy147 wrote: »

Dont buy an electric car.

Problem solved

Thank you Paddy for your Contribution, very helpful.

September1

September1 wrote: »

No, you must take longer route (extra 3kms according to Google) and charge in Gorey and then reach Waterford.

I would most likely make Waterford but I don't know if I'd reach Athlone for Galway which would be adding a few extra miles.

But interestingly when the new chargers get installed I would surely make it and 95 percent of my journey to Galway anyway would be the old road, I actually prefer the old roads on a trip because I like to take it easy and take in the scenery.

September1

You can reach Athlone from Dublin (on 100% charge) and then Galway (on QC 80% charge), although not on full legal speed. You can follow train route and get extra charge in Monasterevin at price of few extra kms. Enfield charger would solve a problem.

So weekend trip could look like, Dublin -> Athlone QC -> Galway and back Galway -> Athlone QC -> small shopping at Tesco and A/C for car in Maynooth -> Dublin

Other routes I verified is Cork QC <-> Limerick QC <-> Galway QC

For Forks Sake

September1 wrote: »

Enfield charger would solve a problem.

fwiw, I was in Enfield Eastbound earlier, the spots for the chargers are in place at the back of the main carpark, but no chargers yet..

paddy147

Deleted User wrote: »

Thank you Paddy for your Contribution, very helpful.

Allways here to lend a hand.:D

Mr Benevolent

OP, would you be fully emptying the battery every day? If so, a warning - Li-ion batteries do not like constant deep discharging and doing it every day will reduce battery life significantly. Also, they don't like being constantly charged to more than 80% charge if that's on the agenda:

recommendations that owners avoid charging the battery beyond 80% in order to mitigate battery damage and failed to disclose that Nissan’s estimated 100 mile range was based on a full charge battery, which is contrary to Nissan’s own recommendation for battery charging.

The Leaf is a poor car for doing 120 km or more in every day. I love electric vehicles, I even have an electric bike, but think twice before committing to a Leaf if you're going to be either fully charging or deep discharging it every day.

paddy147

So you have to drive a longer route,travel more miles,stop and charge up the car on the way to actually get there.

Oh and travel at a slower speed too.


Nissan Leaf electric cars then are BRILLIANT.































































NOT

Idbatterim

why not just get a few year old diesel? If you have to borrow for the new car, depreciation and interest are going to be significant costs.

So you have to drive a longer route,travel more miles,stop and charge up the car on the way to actually get there.

Oh and travel at a slower speed too.


Nissan Leaf electric cars then are BRILLIANT.

seems like madness to me too. You couldnt pay me to take one, the ridiculous headache and logistics.

I've thought about converting the Prius to LPG but I would still be spending 1500 a year.

if you switched to electric, how much would electricity cost per annum roughly? Say its E500 are you really going to part with 20k to save 1k a year?

or if you fancy living a little...

http://cars.donedeal.ie/for-sale/cars/4296161

paddy147

Idbatterim wrote: »

why not just get a few year old diesel? If you have to borrow for the new car, depreciation and interest are going to be significant costs.



seems like madness to me too. You couldnt pay me to take one, the ridiculous headache and logistics.

And then only to find that another petrol or diesel car has parked up in a charging bay,when you really need it the most.:pac::D


Or that its been vandalized and broken.

lomb

If you value your time at all then the Leaf is a pile of rubbish imo, sorry. It is only really suitable as part of a 2 car family that shares cars in an eco biased household that has no real idea of true economics and wants a green badge. It is untested both in economics , resale, battery life, servicing. Expect 5 k a year depreciation+1500 interest =6500 a year or double what your spending on the Prius on fuel.
I hear the Volt is a very good car from someone I know in the UK tha got one but over there there is no company car tax or road tax on electric cars and is 100% tax deductible in year 1 against profits as well as the government providing a large grant. Now thats viable ...

September1

In some circumstances it is reasonable to have LEAF as single car in household.

Confab

Confab wrote: »

OP, would you be fully emptying the battery every day? If so, a warning - Li-ion batteries do not like constant deep discharging and doing it every day will reduce battery life significantly. Also, they don't like being constantly charged to more than 80% charge if that's on the agenda:



The Leaf is a poor car for doing 120 km or more in every day. I love electric vehicles, I even have an electric bike, but think twice before committing to a Leaf if you're going to be either fully charging or deep discharging it every day.

Hi Confab,

Yes I know all about Li batteries, I have a leccy bike too using LiPo batteries, not nearly as good as te batteries in the leaf but major fun

The thing is you can set the Leaf afaik to charge to 80 % and then top up to 100% so it's sitting at only 100% for a few mins before you set off rather than several hours.

The thing is the leaf won't allow a full 100% charge or discharge, but indeed the more you leave at the top and bottom the better.

I know it isn't possible with the current model leaf just yet, but if work installed a charger I'd be good to go and save a fortune on fuel.

Paddy147 if you have nothing meaningful to apply to the discussion then please hijack some other thread.

lomb

lomb wrote: »

If you value your time at all then the Leaf is a pile of rubbish imo, sorry. It is only really suitable as part of a 2 car family that shares cars in an eco biased household that has no real idea of true economics and wants a green badge. It is untested both in economics , resale, battery life, servicing. Expect 5 k a year depreciation+1500 interest =6500 a year or double what your spending on the Prius on fuel.
I hear the Volt is a very good car from someone I know in the UK tha got one but over there there is no company car tax or road tax on electric cars and is 100% tax deductible in year 1 against profits as well as the government providing a large grant. Now thats viable ...

The Volt is a very over priced car and it is not what I need.

The zoe might have all the range I need nobody knows yet.

Over the prius I would save around 4000 euro's a year over petrol, tax, maintenance or more because I would drive it a lot more at the weekends.

Sure the battery will die after around 150,000 miles or so but in 5-7 years the price will be a lot less and all I'll have to do if I want is install a new battery or sell it. I don't think the leaf will loose any more value than any other nissan.

In fact they seem to be holding their value fairly well so far.

With the zoe it's a non issue as when the battery dies they replace it.

I would not be doing this to save money, but I would be putting the money ionto the car instead. I don't care to be driving older and older cars because of the price of fuel. Sure LPG conversion is also an option and worth consideration.

A work charger will solve all my problems.

monkeysnapper

paddy147 wrote: »

Allways here to lend a hand.:D

I also feel you have nothing useful to say on this thread. Maybe you need to go back to the after hours thread :mad:

TestTransmission

Deleted User wrote: »

Paddy147 if you have nothing meaningful to apply to the discussion then please hijack some other thread.

monkeysnapper wrote: »

I also feel you have nothing useful to say on this thread. Maybe you need to go back to the after hours thread :mad:

What they said

paddy147

Deleted User wrote: »

Paddy147 if you have nothing meaningful to apply to the discussion then please hijack some other thread.

Sorry if you cant read/hear some home truths about the Leaf (with regards what you posted) and dont want to read/listen to realistic circumstances about the Nissan Leaf and vandalized charge points or parked cars in them..


Pointless in buying a Leaf that will make a journey alot longer,make you drive more miles,force you to drive much slower on a motorway and also wont get you to your destination on a single charge.

September1

paddy147 wrote: »

Sorry if you cant read/hear some home truths about the Leaf (with regards what you posted) and dont want to read/listen to realistic circumstances about the Nissan Leaf and vandalized charge points or parked cars in them..


Pointless in buying a Leaf that will make a journey alot longer,make you drive more miles,force you to drive much slower on a motorway and also wont get you to your destination on a single charge.

All your observations are true and valid, I think people though are not appreciating how you deliver your message. I think EV drivers are getting a lot of negative feedback, so it makes them touchy.