More foreign born workers here now than during Boom – relevance to politics

learner14a

The 2011 census results published shows the number of Irish residents who were born outside the country has grown 25% since 2006 to over 766,770. The number of non-Irish nationals increased by 124,604 between 2006 and 2011, with the Polish, Indian, Romanian and Brazilian populations doubling in size. During the recession Ireland is attracting even more foreign workers than during the boom. Foreign born now account for 17% of the population.This does not include the foreign born who did not fill out the Census form thereby making the foreign born numbers in Ireland even larger. I was surprised that the number of foreign born is increasing in Ireland despite the fact we are in a recession. Source: http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1024131.shtml

Politics is the art/science of running State Affairs. The fact that nearly 20% of the residents of Ireland is foreign born and this figure increasing during the Recession is relevant to Irish politics. It affects how Ireland is run. It affects housing, employment issues, unemployment issues, health issues,hospital places, school places, social welfare etc. These issues can affect how people vote. The fact that there are more foreign born workers here now than during the Boom is relevant to how Ireland is run.

Death and Taxes

learner14a wrote: »

The 2011 census results published shows the number of Irish residents who were born outside the country has grown 25% since 2006 to over 766,770. The number of non-Irish nationals increased by 124,604 between 2006 and 2011, with the Polish, Indian, Romanian and Brazilian populations doubling in size. During the recession Ireland is attracting even more foreign workers than during the boom. Foreign born now account for 17% of the population.This does not include the foreign born who did not fill out the Census form thereby making the foreign born numbers in Ireland even larger. I was surprised that the number of foreign born is increasing in Ireland despite the fact we are in a recession. Source: http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1024131.shtml

Politics is the art/science of running State Affairs. The fact that nearly 20% of the residents of Ireland is foreign born and this figure increasing during the Recession is relevant to Irish politics. It affects how Ireland is run. It affects housing, employment issues, unemployment issues, health issues,hospital places, school places, social welfare etc. Even if the Moderator does not think so. These issues can affect how people vote. The fact that there are more foreign born workers here now than during the Boom is relevant to how Ireland is run.

No it is not, thats governance, a discipline related to politics.
Op seems to be making much of the statistics without actually spelling out HOW he/she sees politics being influenced by these statistics, and more specifically howthey are affecting how Ireland is being "run".
Perhaps the OP would enlighten us to the nature of their concerns.
Moreover the title mentions "workers" but the staistic relate to residents, one presumes this would also include non workers such as children, or homemakers not in the workforce.

Peregrinus

Since the baseline datum is 2006, we don't know that the number of foreign-born workers is "increasing during the recession"; it may have increased sharply between 2006 and (say) late 2008, and then fallen since then, or stabilised since then.

It's also worth noting that Irish residents are not the same as Irish workers. Of the 766,000 foreign-born residents, many will be dependents of workers, and some of those will be the dependents of Irish-born workers (who, e.g., emigrated, married, had children, and then returned home with a foreign-born spouse and foreign-born children). The fact that they don't emigrate again, now that times are harder, is probably down to a time-of-life thing; once your kids start going to school, your propensity to emigrate is greatly reduced.

learner14a

Politics is the art/science of running State Affairs.This is the definition in Wikipedia for politics.
I am longterm unemployed. My University Education is not helping me. I see huge levels of private sector unemployment. I see lots of my friends in the private sector losing their jobs e.g. aircraft mechanic, chef, secretary, hotel worker, pharmacist, contract county council employees. My sister is a Nurse with 10 years experience who can’t get a job here. Yet when I went into a hospital here many of the nurses were foreign and all the cleaners were from the Third World. I see civil servants still getting paid and in employment, voting for the Status quo parties. The fact that the number of foreign workers is still increasing during a recession means that its harder for Irish people to get jobs, start pensions, pay health insurance and pay their bills. No Irish political party is even talking about displacement of Irish workers.

cavedave

learner14a

The fact that the number of foreign workers is still increasing during a recession means that its harder for Irish people to get jobs, start pensions, pay health insurance and pay their bills

Does it? Most economists think that cheap labour imported into a county increases the standard of living of those born in the country. Though possibly with some decrease for those least skilled. Caplan's Econtalk on immigration here gives some of the arguments and evidence.

To think there are only X number of jobs in an economy and Irish people are in a zero sum game against foreign born people to fill them is a pretty dubious theory and not a bold case fact.

Death and Taxes

learner14a wrote: »

Politics is the art/science of running State Affairs.This is the definition in Wikipedia for politics.
I am longterm unemployed. My University Education is not helping me. I see huge levels of private sector unemployment. I see lots of my friends in the private sector losing their jobs e.g. aircraft mechanic, chef, secretary, hotel worker, pharmacist, contract county council employees. My sister is a Nurse with 10 years experience who can’t get a job here. Yet when I went into a hospital here many of the nurses were foreign and all the cleaners were from the Third World. I see civil servants still getting paid and in employment, voting for the Status quo parties. The fact that the number of foreign workers is still increasing during a recession means that its harder for Irish people to get jobs, start pensions, pay health insurance and pay their bills. No Irish political party is even talking about displacement of Irish workers.

I will start by suggesting that you look elsewhere for a definition of politics, wikipedia is hardly an ideal source!
The rest of your post appears to be little other than an extreme anti immigration rant, littered with claims for which you fail to provide any hard evidence including your outlandish claim that all the hospital cleaners were from the "Third World".

How long have you been unemployed for, learner14a? I would imagine it makes little difference to your employment prospects that some hospital cleaners come from the "third world."

If you and your education can offer value to a business/organisation then you will have a job. If, however, you're expecting to walk into a well paid job "because you're worth it" well, nuff said.

JustinDee

learner14a wrote: »

The 2011 census results published shows the number of Irish residents who were born outside the country has grown 25% since 2006 to over 766,770. The number of non-Irish nationals increased by 124,604 between 2006 and 2011, with the Polish, Indian, Romanian and Brazilian populations doubling in size. During the recession Ireland is attracting even more foreign workers than during the boom. Foreign born now account for 17% of the population.This does not include the foreign born who did not fill out the Census form thereby making the foreign born numbers in Ireland even larger. I was surprised that the number of foreign born is increasing in Ireland despite the fact we are in a recession. Source: http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1024131.shtml

Politics is the art/science of running State Affairs. The fact that nearly 20% of the residents of Ireland is foreign born and this figure increasing during the Recession is relevant to Irish politics. It affects how Ireland is run. It affects housing, employment issues, unemployment issues, health issues,hospital places, school places, social welfare etc. Even if the Moderator does not think so. These issues can affect how people vote. The fact that there are more foreign born workers here now than during the Boom is relevant to how Ireland is run.

I'm "foreign-born".
What's the problem?

the_syco

learner14a wrote: »

The fact that the number of foreign workers is still increasing during a recession means that its harder for Irish people to get jobs, start pensions, pay health insurance and pay their bills. No Irish political party is even talking about displacement of Irish workers.

When you swallow your pride, it's easier to get a job.

Would your sister work for less than what she's entitled to, for more hours?

oscarBravo

learner14a wrote: »

The fact that the number of foreign workers is still increasing during a recession means that its harder for Irish people to get jobs...

What makes Irish people more deserving of jobs than non-Irish people?

JustinDee

oscarBravo wrote: »

What makes Irish people more deserving of jobs than non-Irish people?

Or even further still, what makes "foreign born" people non-Irish people?

gurramok

JustinDee wrote: »

I'm "foreign-born".

So am i 372,000 were born in the UK(including NI). The CSO tables don't give Nationality along with foreign-born but it does say 112,000 retain UK nationality, it gives an idea of the trend.

The nearest table is the below:

Both sexes , All ages, All Irish
Population (Number) 3,927,143
Actual Change Since Previous Census (Number) 220,460
Percentage Change Since Previous Census (%) 5.9
Non-Irish
Population (Number) 544,357
Actual Change Since Previous Census (Number) 124,624
Percentage Change Since Previous Census (%) 29.7

That figure of 766,770 residents who were born outside the country has been reduced to 544,357 when you account Irish nationality.(thats the way I see it unless i'm mistaken)

Oh and 86,000 people were listed in Communal Establishment, many of these were foreign tourists. Then of that foreign born, you have those who are married\in civil partnerships with Irish people, the figure is reduced again but this is not disclosed yet by the CSO.

Peregrinus

gurramok wrote: »

That figure of 766,770 residents who were born outside the country has been reduced to 544,357 when you account Irish nationality.(thats the way I see it unless i'm mistaken)

Yes. Of the 766,000 foreign-born, 220,000, give or take, are Irish citizens. Some will be naturalised Irish citizens - and I imagine you can get figures for naturalisations from the Dept of Justice - but the great bulk will be Irish citizens from birth, by descent.

southsiderosie

learner14a wrote: »

Politics is the art/science of running State Affairs.This is the definition in Wikipedia for politics.
I am longterm unemployed. My University Education is not helping me. I see huge levels of private sector unemployment. I see lots of my friends in the private sector losing their jobs e.g. aircraft mechanic, chef, secretary, hotel worker, pharmacist, contract county council employees. My sister is a Nurse with 10 years experience who can’t get a job here. Yet when I went into a hospital here many of the nurses were foreign and all the cleaners were from the Third World. I see civil servants still getting paid and in employment, voting for the Status quo parties. The fact that the number of foreign workers is still increasing during a recession means that its harder for Irish people to get jobs, start pensions, pay health insurance and pay their bills. No Irish political party is even talking about displacement of Irish workers.

The title of this thread is misleading. The figures are not for foreign workers, they are for the foreign-born. This is a key difference - if you read the report, much of this is driven by family reunification, meaning that the predominately male Eastern European population has decided to stay and bring their families over. It's actually a pretty strong signal of peoples' commitment to Ireland.

Also if you look at the employment figures for the last two decades there was never displacement of Irish workers - rather, Irish workers 'opted out' of a number of sectors (most notably hotels & tourism), while the labor market simultaneously expanded. While I think it is true that during this time, some managers developed a taste for foreign workers, now that the genie is out of the bottle, it is neither feasible nor plausible to stuff it back in again.

Finally, if you are a non-EU citizen and lose your job, you will have to leave the country as there is no real permanent residency program for non-asylum seekers. I.e. if you are a nurse from the Philippines and you decided after a few years to bring your family over, if your hospital makes cuts, you will not get your immigration papers renewed without a job - you are SOL.

I'm all for a debate about immigration, but this one seems to be happening under what is at best misinformation, and at worse false pretenses.

Gabriele

learner14a wrote: »

The fact that the number of foreign workers is still increasing during a recession means that its harder for Irish people to get jobs, start pensions, pay health insurance and pay their bills. No Irish political party is even talking about displacement of Irish workers.

I understand the frustastion of not getting a job, but generalize it's not a solution... both me and my wife are not Irish born, but we are both working in roles which require another EU native language. So almost impossible to cover for an Irish born resident. On top of it, we paid rent for 5 years (now we are paying a mortgage), we use public transportation, we pay bill and tax regularly, supporting the country, and helping the Irish economy to grow (I honestly love irish products). So let me ask you this question: in which way are we contributing in your un-employment? Shouldn't we be considered the same as any Irish born resident that works, pays tax etc...., that are fighting together to get over this difficult time?

learner14a

Just back from the dole office. Ireland has highest number of households headed by an unemployed person in the Eurozone according to the front page of the Irish Times today. I understand that big business wants a plentiful supply of cheap labour. There are only so much money and jobs in the country. Its just that a lot of Irish people are not in jobs. Big business and their political lapdogs don’t care how much unemployment there is or how it affects the lives of ordinary Irish people. The issue of mass unemployment in a country with high immigration is rarely discussed so its good to see it being discussed.

Death and Taxes

learner14a wrote: »

Just back from the dole office. Ireland has highest number of households headed by an unemployed person in the Eurozone according to the front page of the Irish Times today. I understand that big business wants a plentiful supply of cheap labour. There are only so much money and jobs in the country. Its just that a lot of Irish people are not in jobs. Big business and their political lapdogs don’t care how much unemployment there is or how it affects the lives of ordinary Irish people. The issue of mass unemployment in a country with high immigration is rarely discussed so its good to see it being discussed.

We dont have high immigration compared to other European countries such as the UK Germany, France etc. And there is no link between our immigration rates and our unemployment rates.

JustinDee

learner14a wrote: »

Just back from the dole office. Ireland has highest number of households headed by an unemployed person in the Eurozone according to the front page of the Irish Times today. I understand that big business wants a plentiful supply of cheap labour. There are only so much money and jobs in the country. Its just that a lot of Irish people are not in jobs. Big business and their political lapdogs don’t care how much unemployment there is or how it affects the lives of ordinary Irish people. The issue of mass unemployment in a country with high immigration is rarely discussed so its good to see it being discussed.

Now you're bringing up a newspaper article referring to data more than two years old that, in one quote, refers to a country not even in the EU (Norway, an EEA country).

You've attempted to back up your disdain with unemployment by a generalistic, and in my view lazy, reference to "non-Irish".
How are you definitively more Irish than someone who happens to have been born out of the country?
What makes you more 'Irish' than me or even, more deserving of my job?

learner14a

Justin, having spent the last couple of mornings in a dole office I know that unemployment is very prevalent in Ireland. Take a walk into dole offices and you will soon realise that unemployment affects huge numbers of people in Ireland.

Lots of Irish people depend on having a large number of foreign nationals here for their livelihood. I understand there are thousands of landlords who rely on foreign born nationals to live in their investment properties. We have dozens of quangos to facilitate immigration.

Education is not the answer. The view that cheap labour imported into a county increases the standard of living of those born in the country or the best educated is not true, it only does this for those in the protected sectors i.e. public sector. Administrators in the HSE kept their jobs while nurses, doctors, engineers and pharmacists found their contracts were not renewed.

Is mass unemployment the future for Irish private sector workers? Should this be debated or swept under the carpet?

Nodin

learner14a wrote: »

Justin, having spent the last couple of mornings in a dole office I know that unemployment is very prevalent in Ireland. Take a walk into dole offices and you will soon realise that unemployment affects huge numbers of people in Ireland.

Lots of Irish people depend on having a large number of foreign nationals here for their livelihood. I understand there are thousands of landlords who rely on foreign born nationals to live in their investment properties. We have dozens of quangos to facilitate immigration.

............

We signed up to free movement within the EU zone.

Name five of these "quangos".

Death and Taxes

learner14a wrote: »

Justin, having spent the last couple of mornings in a dole office I know that unemployment is very prevalent in Ireland. Take a walk into dole offices and you will soon realise that unemployment affects huge numbers of people in Ireland.

Lots of Irish people depend on having a large number of foreign nationals here for their livelihood. I understand there are thousands of landlords who rely on foreign born nationals to live in their investment properties. We have dozens of quangos to facilitate immigration.

Education is not the answer. The view that cheap labour imported into a county increases the standard of living of those born in the country or the best educated is not true, it only does this for those in the protected sectors i.e. public sector. Administrators in the HSE kept their jobs while nurses, doctors, engineers and pharmacists found their contracts were not renewed.

Is mass unemployment the future for Irish private sector workers? Should this be debated or swept under the carpet?

List the dozens of quangos, if you cant list the dozens then withdraw the statement.
Again you are on a rant about unemployment and seeking to , somewhat less that subtley, blame it on non Irish born workers.
Whole post, in my opinion, reads like a lazy quasi-racist rant.

JustinDee

learner14a wrote: »

Justin, having spent the last couple of mornings in a dole office I know that unemployment is very prevalent in Ireland. Take a walk into dole offices and you will soon realise that unemployment affects huge numbers of people in Ireland.

Lots of Irish people depend on having a large number of foreign nationals here for their livelihood. I understand there are thousands of landlords who rely on foreign born nationals to live in their investment properties. We have dozens of quangos to facilitate immigration.

Education is not the answer. The view that cheap labour imported into a county increases the standard of living of those born in the country or the best educated is not true, it only does this for those in the protected sectors i.e. public sector. Administrators in the HSE kept their jobs while nurses, doctors, engineers and pharmacists found their contracts were not renewed.

Is mass unemployment the future for Irish private sector workers? Should this be debated or swept under the carpet?

I asked you two simple questions. Instead of andwering them you have just replied with a generalistic summary/re-hash of your original post.
Go on, give my questions a whirl. I'm interested to see what you say and how you apply what you've written already to them.

oscarBravo

If you could answer mine too while you're at it, that would be great.

mikemac1

I see plenty being hired and doing phone interviews before they arrive in Ireland

Reason being is language skills

If Irish people left secondary schools with second and third languages they would have a better chance of staying off the dole queue and could apply.
I'm not just talking callcentres, they are good paying jobs too like Paypal or in banking

I don't work in paypal but I'd imagine it's the same there.
Workers from other countries will come over and get a job in Dundalk

A local from the wee county or the OP may look at this and wonder what's wrong with themselves. Nothing wrong at all, just the employer wants a few hundred new hires with language skills and the cúpla focail isn't it.
So locals remain in the dole queue

learner14a

Here is some of the immigration quangos I found.A number of people requested I name them. The employees of these organisations have a vested interest in immigration and migration. Also,I have never seen a job advertised in any of the following organisations. I would love to know how jobs are handed out in these organisations.
1.NCCRI - National Consultative Committe on Racism and Interculturialism www.nccri.ie
2.Immigrant Council of Ireland
3.Migrant Rights Centre Ireland (MRCI)
4.Equality Authority: Accommodating Diversity in Labour Market Programmes
5.Irish Human Rights Commission
6.International Organisation For Migration Dublin
7. Irish Immigrant Support Centre
8.Association of Asylum Seekers and Refugees in Kilkenny
9Integrating Ireland www.integratingireland.ie
10.Comhlamh: www.comhlamh.org
11. Advisory Council English Language Schools
12.Galway Refugee Support Group
13.www.irishrefugeecouncil.ie
14.Office of the Refugee Applications Commissioner
15. Irish Human Rights Commission:
16.Integrate Ireland Language and Training
17. INIS: Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service
18.FLAC: Free legal Aid and the Legal Aid Board

Even if all the unemployed and the unemployed single parents learnt a new language,it wouldn't solve the unemployment crisis. Lots of foreign born people are on the dole too and they speak other languages. I have been spending a lot of time in queues in the dole office where many languages are being spoken.

mikemac1

learner14a wrote: »

12.Galway Refugee Support Group

That's for the immigrants from Mayo

Galway is overrun with them!

JustinDee

learner14a wrote: »

Here is some of the immigration quangos I found.A number of people requested I name them. The employees of these organisations have a vested interest in immigration and migration. Also,I have never seen a job advertised in any of the following organisations. I would love to know how jobs are handed out in these organisations.
1.NCCRI - National Consultative Committe on Racism and Interculturialism www.nccri.ie
2.Immigrant Council of Ireland
3.Migrant Rights Centre Ireland (MRCI)
4.Equality Authority: Accommodating Diversity in Labour Market Programmes
5.Irish Human Rights Commission
6.International Organisation For Migration Dublin
7. Irish Immigrant Support Centre
8.Association of Asylum Seekers and Refugees in Kilkenny
9Integrating Ireland www.integratingireland.ie
10.Comhlamh: www.comhlamh.org
11. Advisory Council English Language Schools
12.Galway Refugee Support Group
13.www.irishrefugeecouncil.ie
14.Office of the Refugee Applications Commissioner
15. Irish Human Rights Commission:
16.Integrate Ireland Language and Training
17. INIS: Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service
18.FLAC: Free legal Aid and the Legal Aid Board

Even if all the unemployed and the unemployed single parents learnt a new language,it wouldn't solve the unemployment crisis. Lots of foreign born people are on the dole too and they speak other languages. I have been spending a lot of time in queues in the dole office where many languages are being spoken.

So that would be a resounding 'No' then ...

Nodin

learner14a wrote: »

.....The employees of these organisations have a vested interest in immigration and migration. .

Really.....you seem to be confusing asylum seekers/refugees with immigrants for starters.

learner14a wrote: »

.....
Also,I have never seen a job advertised in any of the following organisations. I would love to know how jobs are handed out in these organisations. .

I've never seen a whale, meself.

learner14a wrote: »

1.NCCRI - National Consultative Committe on Racism and Interculturialism www.nccri.ie
2.Immigrant Council of Ireland
3.Migrant Rights Centre Ireland (MRCI)
4.Equality Authority: Accommodating Diversity in Labour Market Programmes
5.Irish Human Rights Commission
6.International Organisation For Migration Dublin
7. Irish Immigrant Support Centre
8.Association of Asylum Seekers and Refugees in Kilkenny
9Integrating Ireland www.integratingireland.ie
10.Comhlamh: www.comhlamh.org
11. Advisory Council English Language Schools
12.Galway Refugee Support Group
13.www.irishrefugeecouncil.ie
14.Office of the Refugee Applications Commissioner
15. Irish Human Rights Commission:
16.Integrate Ireland Language and Training
17. INIS: Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service
18.FLAC: Free legal Aid and the Legal Aid Board.

You've irish human rights commission in twice. As its not immigrant specific, it shouldnn't be there at all.

Integrate Ireland closed four years ago.

The Equality authority is nothing to do with immigration.

FLAC is not a "quango", receives no monies from the state, nor is it immigrant related. The legal aid board covers a number of functions, is not exclusively concerned with immigrants and again should not be on your list.

INIS is a government department that deals with visas for immigrants and asylum seekers claims etc. Putting it in there is a nonsense.

Comhlamh has nothing to do with immigration.

None of the refugee organisations should be on the list.

Advisory council on English language schools is exactly that and nothing else. I'm not even sure its goverment funded.

southsiderosie

learner14a wrote: »

Here is some of the immigration quangos I found.A number of people requested I name them. The employees of these organisations have a vested interest in immigration and migration. Also,I have never seen a job advertised in any of the following organisations. I would love to know how jobs are handed out in these organisations.

1.NCCRI - National Consultative Committe on Racism and Interculturialism www.nccri.ie Was one of the first quangos shut down when the crisis hit in 2008
2.Immigrant Council of Ireland independent organization founded and led by a nun
3.Migrant Rights Centre Ireland (MRCI) funded through private foundations; they are VERY vocal critics of government policy
4.Equality Authority: Accommodating Diversity in Labour Market Programmes not an exclusively migrant-serving organization
5.Irish Human Rights Commission not primarily an immigrant-serving organization
6.International Organisation For Migration Dublin The IOM is an international organization; Ireland is not the only member state. However, the Irish branch's main program is for 'return assistance', i.e. helping non-EU citizens return to their home countries. Based on your comments, this would seem like money well spent.
7. Irish Immigrant Support Centre initially supported bu the Catholic Church; did not receive public funds until 2007
8.Association of Asylum Seekers and Refugees in Kilkenny
9Integrating Ireland www.integratingireland.ie funded by private foundations and the Citizens Information Board, which is not primarily a migrant-serving organization
10.Comhlamh: www.comhlamh.org this is an international human rights organization so I'm not sure why it is on this list
11. Advisory Council English Language Schools erm, this is the government agency that helps schools cope with students who do not speak English as a first language.
12.Galway Refugee Support Group I'm not familiar with this group
13.www.irishrefugeecouncil.ie funded through private foundations and the EU
14.Office of the Refugee Applications Commissioner How do you propose that refugee cases are reviewed then?
15. Irish Human Rights Commission: not primarily an immigrant-serving organization
16.Integrate Ireland Language and Training shut down in 2008 due to the crisis
17. INIS: Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service Um, every country has an office to process citizenship and visa applications
18.FLAC: Free legal Aid and the Legal Aid Board This is open to everyone - it is not primarily an immigrant services organization

I don't understand your definition of a 'quango'. Most of these are independent charitable organizations, many of which are funded through the EU and private foundations, not the Irish government. And some of the smaller associations basically only exist on paper.

I also don't understand how groups that represent migrant interests somehow present a threat to Irish employment?

In my experience, the Irish government does not actually fund many immigrant-serving organizations, and many of them do not want government funding, as it compromises their ability to be critical of government policy. And because they have shoestring budgets, many rely heavily on volunteers and student interns.

southsiderosie

^^Damn you, Nodin!

p1akuw47h5r3it

This is a ridiculous thread. Stopping people coming to Ireland won't result in more Irish people being hired. If anything it will be detrimental to the Irish economy as certain sectors, such as IT, can't fill a lot of their roles with Irish people as not enough have the relevant qualifications.

Your assumption that the reason a lot of Irish people are unemployed due to Foreign people "taking their jobs" is not only a worn out cliche but completely false.

Nodin

southsiderosie wrote: »

^^Damn you, Nodin!

Yours was more comprehensive.

learner14a

Nodin and Southsiderosie: how did you get such detailed knowledge of those quangos and their funding to hand?

oscarBravo

learner14a wrote: »

Nodin and Southsiderosie: how did you get such detailed knowledge of those quangos and their funding to hand?

You missed some questions yourself. You might want to read back over the thread and have a stab at answering them.

pontia

learner14a wrote: »

Nodin and Southsiderosie: how did you get such detailed knowledge of those quangos and their funding to hand?

they probably work for them

K-9

learner14a wrote: »

Nodin and Southsiderosie: how did you get such detailed knowledge of those quangos and their funding to hand?

There's 40 minutes and an hour after your posts. See that first link and website you gave:

The NCCRI is closed since the end of December 2008 as a result of Government cutbacks in our budget.

Right at the top of the page.

Comhlamh is quite obviously an international organisation. 2 minutes research there.

oscarBravo

pontia wrote: »

they probably work for them

Both of them work for all 18 organisations, including the ones that don't exist anymore?

Nodin

learner14a wrote: »

Nodin and Southsiderosie: how did you get such detailed knowledge of those quangos and their funding to hand?

They are, the vast majority, either not quangos or non-existent.

What we didn't do was search on google and note whatever came up without looking at them closely......

southsiderosie

learner14a wrote: »

Nodin and Southsiderosie: how did you get such detailed knowledge of those quangos and their funding to hand?

First off, to reiterate, most aren't quangos.

As part of my old job I used to look at funding for civil society organizations in Western Europe, so I was familiar with most of the organizations on that list - and it was quite easy to Google the ones I hadn't heard of. Unlike most of its EU neighbors, the Irish government does not put a lot of money into funding the non-profit sector. In addition, most small organizations - migrant-serving or not - don't have the capacity to access government financing, because the filing and reporting requirements are usually onerous.

Ireland has a relatively well-educated immigrant population. The vast majority of immigrants are European, so there are not major cultural clashes. Non-EU immigrants have shown a keen interest in participating in local politics, and EU immigrants have voted with their feet (and their families) to stay in Ireland; both of these are key signs that immigrants in Ireland are committed to social integration. Taken together, Ireland probably has the most favorable situation (socially and politically) for immigration in Western Europe. So I find it interesting that people constantly come onto this site to complain about immigrants.

I understand that the economy is in dire straits. I understand that Ireland is not unusual in that people find it easy to scapegoat immigrants in a time of economic crisis. But Ireland's problem is not immigration, it's the shower of crooks and charlatans - home-grown crooks and charlatans, I might add - that the native Irish public elects time and time again, and who have for most of the history of the Republic, shown themselves to be utterly incapable of managing the economy.

JustinDee

Thread is done, I'd say. Originator now avoiding pertenant questions due to obvious inability to answer them.

Doc Ruby

southsiderosie wrote: »

Non-EU immigrants have shown a keen interest in participating in local politics

Depends. Asian immigrants have almost no interest in local politics, in my experience.

southsiderosie wrote: »

I understand that Ireland is not unusual in that people find it easy to scapegoat immigrants in a time of economic crisis.

Other than a few anonymous posters on the internet and the odd taxi driver, who is doing that? It never fails to entertain how people are willing to appoint these random lines of text on their screens as spokepeople for an entire country.

southsiderosie wrote: »

But Ireland's problem is not immigration, it's the shower of crooks and charlatans - home-grown crooks and charlatans, I might add - that the native Irish public elects time and time again, and who have for most of the history of the Republic, shown themselves to be utterly incapable of managing the economy.

Couple of points here - the native Irish utterly obliterated FF and the Greens for making massive private debts public. And while there are deep and endemic problems with the Irish political scene, as can be said about any country, FDI and the agricultural sectors among others have been making steady progress.

Personally I'm quite proud of the way that immigration has been handled by the Irish people. Going from basically no immigrants to what was it, one in six people being foreign born over the course of a decade without the race riots and prejuidice which have marred most of our European neighbours and the USA over far less is unique in the world.

sfakiaman

As a former census enumerator, and one who has statistics in his primary degree, I would like to make the following comments.

Statistics are only comparable if the methods of collection remain the same. When I first did the census we had forms in English and Irish, last year we had the same but with the addition of interpretations in a dozen languages. This would have the result of increasing the return rate for foreign nationals.

In the site linked to by the OP they note that the Traveller population increased by 32% in the same period, they do not mention that considerable effort was made to explain to Travellers that it was in their interest to complete the forms.

As mentioned by an earlier poster, not all foriegn nationals registered are workers, in my area a fair number were holiday home owners, some were retired to Ireland bringing their pensions with them, some were adopted children of childless couples and quite a number were holiday makers, If Faílte Ireland were more successful half the country would be foreign on census night.

In my opinion it is not the immigrants who are the problem with Irish politics but the people who missuse statistics for their own gain.

AlekSmart

southsiderosie wrote: »

First off, to reiterate, most aren't quangos.

As part of my old job I used to look at funding for civil society organizations in Western Europe, so I was familiar with most of the organizations on that list - and it was quite easy to Google the ones I hadn't heard of. Unlike most of its EU neighbors, the Irish government does not put a lot of money into funding the non-profit sector. In addition, most small organizations - migrant-serving or not - don't have the capacity to access government financing, because the filing and reporting requirements are usually onerous.

Ireland has a relatively well-educated immigrant population. The vast majority of immigrants are European, so there are not major cultural clashes. Non-EU immigrants have shown a keen interest in participating in local politics, and EU immigrants have voted with their feet (and their families) to stay in Ireland; both of these are key signs that immigrants in Ireland are committed to social integration. Taken together, Ireland probably has the most favorable situation (socially and politically) for immigration in Western Europe. So I find it interesting that people constantly come onto this site to complain about immigrants.

I understand that the economy is in dire straits. I understand that Ireland is not unusual in that people find it easy to scapegoat immigrants in a time of economic crisis. But Ireland's problem is not immigration, it's the shower of crooks and charlatans - home-grown crooks and charlatans, I might add - that the native Irish public elects time and time again, and who have for most of the history of the Republic, shown themselves to be utterly incapable of managing the economy.

SSR,as a matter of curiosity,what exactly is a "civil society organization" European or otherwise ?

Whilst I can see where SSR comes from in her opinion that Immigrants are being "scapegoated" for the countrys problems,i'm not so certain that a blanket description of our elected politicians as "Crooks and Charlatans" is'nt simplistic "scapegoating" in itself ?

I'm equally interested in the final paragraph of SSR's post,as it could be interpreted by those of a certain mind,as being disparaging or disrespectful of the native Irish Public.....however,as a member of that grouping,I hasten to add,No offence taken !!!

Death and Taxes

AlekSmart wrote: »

SSR,as a matter of curiosity,what exactly is a "civil society organization" European or otherwise ?

Whilst I can see where SSR comes from in her opinion that Immigrants are being "scapegoated" for the countrys problems,i'm not so certain that a blanket description of our elected politicians as "Crooks and Charlatans" is'nt simplistic "scapegoating" in itself ?

I'm equally interested in the final paragraph of SSR's post,as it could be interpreted by those of a certain mind,as being disparaging or disrespectful of the native Irish Public.....however,as a member of that grouping,I hasten to add,No offence taken !!!

Civil Society organizations generally are non governmental organizations such as Trades Unions, Employers Groups, Representative Bodies, Chatitable and cultural institutions etc.

Personally I fully agree with SSR's closing paragraph.

southsiderosie

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Depends. Asian immigrants have almost no interest in local politics, in my experience.

Asians immigrants don't anywhere - but they are a relatively small percentage of the immigrant population. What I find interesting is that Sub-Saharan Africans, who are the most economically and socially marginalized immigrant group in Ireland, are disproportionately interested in politics - not only do they run for office, there are a lot of African community associations, and they are very active in trying to register immigrant voters. There are interesting parallels to the Irish experience in the US in that regard - although the key glaring difference in that comparison is access to citizenship.

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Other than a few anonymous posters on the internet and the odd taxi driver, who is doing that? It never fails to entertain how people are willing to appoint these random lines of text on their screens as spokepeople for an entire country.

I made my comments within the context of this website, where nine out of ten threads on immigration are essentially uninformed rants. That said, if you look at the public opinion polling, immigration is not popular. Just because this has not resulted in the emergence of a far-right anti-immigrant party doesn't mean that those sentiments aren't there.

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Couple of points here - the native Irish utterly obliterated FF and the Greens for making massive private debts public. And while there are deep and endemic problems with the Irish political scene, as can be said about any country, FDI and the agricultural sectors among others have been making steady progress.

When is the last time that an Irish politician was jailed for corruption?

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Personally I'm quite proud of the way that immigration has been handled by the Irish people. Going from basically no immigrants to what was it, one in six people being foreign born over the course of a decade without the race riots and prejuidice which have marred most of our European neighbours and the USA over far less is unique in the world.

I think that Ireland has had a surprisingly muted response to immigration, as has Spain. But Ireland also has the advantage of geography - unlike Spain, and now Greece, it was never a transit country for undocumented immigrants - and in fact, compared to the US and Southern European states, the number of undocumented migrants in Ireland is extremely low. In addition, most European riots are not by immigrants - they are by frustrated second and third generation youth who feel both socially and economically marginalized. So I think it is a bit early to begin tooting Ireland's horn for how it has handled immigration - the proof will be in the (second generation) pudding.

I would also add that Ireland's approach to immigration 'policy' has been a mess - there seems to be very little rhyme or reason in the processing of visas, etc. But that is a rant for another day...

southsiderosie

AlekSmart wrote: »

SSR,as a matter of curiosity,what exactly is a "civil society organization" European or otherwise ?

Whilst I can see where SSR comes from in her opinion that Immigrants are being "scapegoated" for the countrys problems,i'm not so certain that a blanket description of our elected politicians as "Crooks and Charlatans" is'nt simplistic "scapegoating" in itself ?

I'm equally interested in the final paragraph of SSR's post,as it could be interpreted by those of a certain mind,as being disparaging or disrespectful of the native Irish Public.....however,as a member of that grouping,I hasten to add,No offence taken !!!

Eh, I'm pretty comfortable with my characterization of Irish politics, although I should perhaps say 'political culture' rather than 'politicians'. To be fair, there are a lot of smart, dedicated people engaged in Irish politics at the local level, but they seem to get sucked into the prevailing culture or chewed up and spat out once they get to the national level. The only sustained period of macroeconomic stability in Ireland's history was during the euro convergence process when the hands of politicians were tied - they couldn't engage in the usual populist spending binges if they wanted to qualify. And then they qualified and the shackles came off - and look what happened.

I also am amazed by the fact that the number of people who have been convicted and punished for white collar crime and political corruption (the two are often interrelated) is in the single digits. Having grown up in one of the most corrupt cities (Chicago) in one of the most corrupt states (Illinois) in the US - where, incidentally, two of our last four governors are sitting in federal prisons - I both recognize the underlying logic of Irish politics and marvel at the fact that 1) nobody is ever punished, and 2) the public has very little to show for public-private collusion. At least in Chicago we got some infrastructure upgrades for our troubles... :rolleyes:

I think this is getting a bit off-topic, so I'll end this here...

Doc Ruby

southsiderosie wrote: »

Sub-Saharan Africans, who are the most economically and socially marginalized immigrant group in Ireland

You what? Where did you pull this from? I live right next to a Nigerian family and they're doing great. Their daughter's Irish boyfriend dropped in the last day to ask me about the fishing.

southsiderosie wrote: »

I made my comments within the context of this website, where nine out of ten threads on immigration are essentially uninformed rants. That said, if you look at the public opinion polling, immigration is not popular. Just because this has not resulted in the emergence of a far-right anti-immigrant party doesn't mean that those sentiments aren't there.

Anonymous internet again, and hey, once again public opinion is formed from these anonymous posters apparently. This canard of the hidden spectre of Irish racism keeps getting trotted out by a certain parish, and yet somehow keeps failing to materialise.

southsiderosie wrote: »

When is the last time that an Irish politician was jailed for corruption?

What does that have to do with my point about economic progress?

southsiderosie wrote: »

I think that Ireland has had a surprisingly muted response to immigration, as has Spain. But Ireland also has the advantage of geography - unlike Spain, and now Greece, it was never a transit country for undocumented immigrants - and in fact, compared to the US and Southern European states, the number of undocumented migrants in Ireland is extremely low. In addition, most European riots are not by immigrants - they are by frustrated second and third generation youth who feel both socially and economically marginalized. So I think it is a bit early to begin tooting Ireland's horn for how it has handled immigration - the proof will be in the (second generation) pudding.

Nonsense, if racial tensions were going to appear an unprecedentedly massive influx of foreigners would certainly have catalysed it. Bottom line is, Irish culture is basically better at dealing with such things.

southsiderosie

Doc Ruby wrote: »

You what? Where did you pull this from? I live right next to a Nigerian family and they're doing great. Their daughter's Irish boyfriend dropped in the last day to ask me about the fishing.

Re: economic marginalization - the ESRI begs to differ.

Re: social marginalization - African community groups beg to differ.

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Anonymous internet again, and hey, once again public opinion is formed from these anonymous posters apparently. This canard of the hidden spectre of Irish racism keeps getting trotted out by a certain parish, and yet somehow keeps failing to materialise.

If you go back and read my original post, yes my point was about threads on THIS WEBSITE. And where did I say that Irish people were racist? I said that immigration was unpopular - that is hardly a controversial statement. According to the latest round of the European Social Survey, over 1 in 4 Irish people think that immigration makes the country a worse place to live, and 1 in 4 thinks that immigration undermines the country's cultural life. However, this unpopularity has not translated into the rise of a far-right party - which is commendable.

Doc Ruby wrote: »

What does that have to do with my point about economic progress?

What does economic progress have to do with corruption? And how in any way does this break the cycle of FF-driven economic crisis followed by a mop-up process, followed by the return of FF to power, followed by populist spending, followed by crisis? Wash, rinse, repeat.

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Nonsense, if racial tensions were going to appear an unprecedentedly massive influx of foreigners would certainly have catalysed it. Bottom line is, Irish culture is basically better at dealing with such things.

Spain's culture is completely different from Ireland's, and they have not had major tensions around immigration - and they have much higher levels of illegal immigration and Muslim immigration (the great boogeymen of European migration politics). Immigrants as a percentage of the population also increased at a higher rate in Spain than it did in Ireland in the 1990s and 2000s. So I don't think that "Irish culture" tells us much here.

Overall, I think you are really overreacting to my post. I've essentially said that Ireland's immigration situation was ideal, so I don't understand why people come on this site to bitch about it all the time. I also said that we should adopt a wait and see attitude to how Ireland has handled immigration because most of the problems in Europe are with the second and third generation. Again, these are hardly controversial statements, so I don't understand why your responses are getting increasingly combative.

Doc Ruby

southsiderosie wrote: »

Re: economic marginalization - the ESRI begs to differ.

So people with poor English language skills and no recognised qualifications are having a hard time breaking into the upper end of the jobs market? How you translate that into marginalisation is a puzzler.

southsiderosie wrote: »

Re: social marginalization - African community groups beg to differ.

Good for them. Not to put too fine a point on it, if they have difficulties there are ample resources available to address these problems. Convictions for racially aggravated incidents haven't particularly increased lately have they?

southsiderosie wrote: »

I said that immigration was unpopular - that is hardly a controversial statement. According to the latest round of the European Social Survey, over 1 in 4 Irish people think that immigration makes the country a worse place to live, and 1 in 4 thinks that immigration undermines the country's cultural life.

We have massive cutbacks, austerity, tax increases, recession, and ever-climbing unemployment, and then some wonder why immigration might be considered an ill advised policy in certain quarters, with an emphasis on quarter. You should keep in mind the difference between immigrants and immigration in this context.

southsiderosie wrote: »

What does economic progress have to do with corruption? And how in any way does this break the cycle of FF-driven economic crisis followed by a mop-up process, followed by the return of FF to power, followed by populist spending, followed by crisis? Wash, rinse, repeat.

southsiderosie wrote: »

The only sustained period of macroeconomic stability in Ireland's history was during the euro convergence process when the hands of politicians were tied

Except for that corporation tax thing, without which the country would have been completely ruined, which many of our European partners are vociferously opposed to. And even now, despite the political problems, which exist in every country, the standard of living in Ireland is extremely high.

southsiderosie wrote: »

Spain's culture is completely different from Ireland's, and they have not had major tensions around immigration - and they have much higher levels of illegal immigration and Muslim immigration (the great boogeymen of European migration politics). Immigrants as a percentage of the population also increased at a higher rate in Spain than it did in Ireland in the 1990s and 2000s. So I don't think that "Irish culture" tells us much here.

Oh its a different culture in Spain alright.

In Spain, when they make fun about the colour of your skin, it is not necessarily racism.

Not recognising racism doesn't mean it doesn't exist, it just means the finer points of the last 50 years' social development have eluded them. If I read that right, they don't even have anti discrimination laws in Spain? Immigrants in Spain stand at around 14% of the population at the moment, which I think is somewhat less than Ireland, and they have "harboured many waves of historical immigration." Ireland has not. That's not to downplay Spanish culture, its great that things are going well there.

southsiderosie wrote: »

Overall, I think you are really overreacting to my post. I've essentially said that Ireland's immigration situation was ideal, so I don't understand why people come on this site to bitch about it all the time. I also said that we should adopt a wait and see attitude to how Ireland has handled immigration because most of the problems in Europe are with the second and third generation. Again, these are hardly controversial statements, so I don't understand why your responses are getting increasingly combative.

I'm not referring to immigrant unrest, I'm referring to unrest among the locals towards immigrants, of which there is very little. What makes me most uneasy are attempts to depict Irish people in a negative fashion despite the evidence to the contrary. And there are a surplus of people more than happy to do so. If you aren't among them, fair enough.

Doc Ruby

Oh and a little further Googling reveals

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/635092.stm

Spain struggles with race riots

Riot police in Spain have again clashed with hundreds of protesters on the third consecutive day of violence directed against immigrants from North Africa. The local immigrant community has asked the authorities for protection after rioting left their property ransacked and their cars overturned.
Clouds of smoke wafted over the south-eastern Spanish region of Almeria as a plastic recycling factory, set alight by anti-immigrant protestors, burnt to the ground.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_riots#Spain

southsiderosie

Doc Ruby wrote: »

So people with poor English language skills and no recognised qualifications are having a hard time breaking into the upper end of the jobs market? How you translate that into marginalisation is a puzzler.

I was referring to the situation with African immigrants.

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Good for them. Not to put too fine a point on it, if they have difficulties there are ample resources available to address these problems. Convictions for racially aggravated incidents haven't particularly increased lately have they?

Well a main complaint of several African NGOs is that the Garda don't take their complaints seriously. And, per my comments regarding NGOs, there aren't ample resources.

Doc Ruby wrote: »

We have massive cutbacks, austerity, tax increases, recession, and ever-climbing unemployment, and then some wonder why immigration might be considered an ill advised policy in certain quarters, with an emphasis on quarter. You should keep in mind the difference between immigrants and immigration in this context.

Given that I used the word 'immigration' in my response, I think I have.

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Except for that corporation tax thing, without which the country would have been completely ruined, which many of our European partners are vociferously opposed to. And even now, despite the political problems, which exist in every country, the standard of living in Ireland is extremely high.

The corporate tax was put into place pre-euro, and is completely consistent with my characterization of the cyclical problems in Irish political economy.

Also, quit changing the goalposts.

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Oh its a different culture in Spain alright.

Not recognising racism doesn't mean it doesn't exist, it just means the finer points of the last 50 years' social development have eluded them. If I read that right, they don't even have anti discrimination laws in Spain? Immigrants in Spain stand at around 14% of the population at the moment, which I think is somewhat less than Ireland, and they have "harboured many waves of historical immigration." Ireland has not. That's not to downplay Spanish culture, its great that things are going well there.

Spain has not harbored waves of immigration - it was a country of emigration until the 1990s. Historically immigrants were never more than 2% of the population, and those were mainly British and German retirees.

The country does have anti-discrimination laws, but there aren't laws expressly to deal with racism against immigrants. Actually, in this regard, Northern Ireland outperforms both Ireland and Spain - immigrant NGOs in Ireland wish they had the kinds of anti-discrimination laws that exist in the North.

Having lived as an immigrant in both Spain and Ireland, I will be the first to put my hand up to say that Spaniards are more casually racist and more politically incorrect than Irish people. Yet despite all that, they've had very open immigration policies - there were two major amnesties in the 2000s, and the government in 2008 moved to extend local voting rights to immigrants from key sending countries.

Doc Ruby wrote: »

I'm not referring to immigrant unrest, I'm referring to unrest among the locals towards immigrants, of which there is very little. What makes me most uneasy are attempts to depict Irish people in a negative fashion despite the evidence to the contrary. And there are a surplus of people more than happy to do so. If you aren't among them, fair enough.

Again, I think you are being overly sensitive about Irish people and immigration. The Irish aren't perfect, but in no way have I made them out to be monsters, and compared to Greece and Italy (who admittedly are dealing with very different migration flows), things have been relatively tranquil. That said, let's not pretend that there isn't anti-immigrant sentiment - just because there are not riots doesn't mean it is not there.

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Oh and a little further Googling reveals

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/635092.stm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_riots#Spain

Yes, and that was one incident over the last 20 years in a region with close to 30% unemployment even in the boom years in a country with ten times the population of Ireland and double the unemployment rate. I'd call that a good record, especially compared to other new destination countries like Greece and Italy.

Spain has what would be considered by most policymakers a sub-optimal immigration situation: lots of 1) undocumented, 2) non-European, and 3) Muslim immigrants - i.e. almost the exact opposite of Ireland. Yet the country has remained remarkably calm, even with astronomical unemployment: far-right parties have gained no traction, immigrants are encouraged to participate in local politics, there is a clear pathway to residency and citizenship (this is a major failure of Irish policy) and parties have even taken on immigrant candidates (as have Irish parties, although the scale was much greater in Spain). SO, yes, when all is said and done, I think they have a very good record on immigration.