More foreign born workers here now than during Boom – relevance to politics

Doc Ruby

southsiderosie wrote: »

Well a main complaint of several African NGOs is that the Garda don't take their complaints seriously. And, per my comments regarding NGOs, there aren't ample resources.

The way the guards work is they consider the evidence and decide whether or not there is enough to go forward with a prosecution. They are not going to act where evidence doesn't exist, nor should they. I sincerely doubt there is a widespread conspiracy, even an unknowing one, to disregard complaints about racism. If you have evidence to the contrary I'd be interested to hear it. The nearest data I could find indicates that racially aggravated crimes increased by 28% in the period 2000 to 2009, which given the amount of immigration in that period runs counter to the notion of widespread latent racism.

southsiderosie wrote: »

Spain has not harbored waves of immigration

Just quoting the wikipedia article, you can edit it yourself if you like.

southsiderosie wrote: »

The country does have anti-discrimination laws, but there aren't laws expressly to deal with racism against immigrants. Actually, in this regard, Northern Ireland outperforms both Ireland and Spain - immigrant NGOs in Ireland wish they had the kinds of anti-discrimination laws that exist in the North.

That's because there really are serious problems with racism and homophobia in the north.

southsiderosie wrote: »

Again, I think you are being overly sensitive about Irish people and immigration. The Irish aren't perfect, but in no way have I made them out to be monsters, and compared to Greece and Italy (who admittedly are dealing with very different migration flows), things have been relatively tranquil. That said, let's not pretend that there isn't anti-immigrant sentiment - just because there are not riots doesn't mean it is not there.

I agree, there are a few thicks in every country, witness those luminaries of the one family who tried to start a BNP-style party here and ended ignomiously with one challengin another to a fist fight on the radio.

I'm just saying that there are fewer of those particular kinds of thicks here than in most places. Anti Irish racism is still rife even today, complete with accusations of Irish racism, in particular in certain parts of Australia, much of the UK and the North, and a couple of other pockets here and there. It behooves us all to stand up to it where it arises.

I appreciate what you're saying though, and agree to an extent.

southsiderosie wrote: »

Yes, and that was one incident over the last 20 years

Eh that was the one incident I quoted. There are three on the wiki link and quite a few more on sites I'd rather not link to that googling turned up. Its a bit mysterious the lack of mass media attention to these incidents actually.

charlemont

Most immigrant's I know have a deep appreciation and respect for this country as it has helped them improve their own life's.

People just have to deal with the fact that Ireland is an attractive place for lot's of people around the world, A stable democracy with freedom of worship and favourable living conditions will always attract people.

Anyway with all of the emigration from Ireland we are unique in western Europe with regard to our low dispersed population, Immigration will help to stabilise or reverse that.

Over time the immigrants and their children will be having a much larger say in how this country is run and it will give goombeenism a run for it's money.

southsiderosie

Doc Ruby wrote: »

The way the guards work is they consider the evidence and decide whether or not there is enough to go forward with a prosecution. They are not going to act where evidence doesn't exist, nor should they. I sincerely doubt there is a widespread conspiracy, even an unknowing one, to disregard complaints about racism. If you have evidence to the contrary I'd be interested to hear it. The nearest data I could find indicates that racially aggravated crimes increased by 28% in the period 2000 to 2009, which given the amount of immigration in that period runs counter to the notion of widespread latent racism.

This is how these groups feel. Nobody is claiming a conspiracy; rather a culture of indifference.

Just quoting the wikipedia article, you can edit it yourself if you like.

The article you cited clearly says emigration, not immigration. And I quote:

In migration terms and after centuries of net emigration, Spain has recently experienced large-scale immigration for the first time in modern history

That's because there really are serious problems with racism and homophobia in the north.

Yes I know, but thanks for patronizing me.

Doc Ruby

southsiderosie wrote: »

This is how these groups feel. Nobody is claiming a conspiracy; rather a culture of indifference.

I'm sure the guards would be only delighted to pursue prosecutions if evidence existed. Has the Ombudsman been made aware of this racially aligned indifference?

southsiderosie wrote: »

The article you cited clearly says emigration, not immigration. And I quote:

It says, and I quote, "having harboured many waves of historical immigration." Its right there. However you are correct about modernity, but still haven't addressed how hooligans in blackface roaring down racial abuse is seen as somehow "not racism" in Spain, except to handwave it as "casually racist", which is bizarre. Or how Spain's race riots contrasts with Ireland's lack thereof and lack of any sign of incipient race riots on the horizon.

southsiderosie wrote: »

Yes I know, but thanks for patronizing me.

A vigorous rebuttal of your arguments is "increasingly combative" and pointing out the facts of widespread racism among the population of the north is "patronising"? Kindly address the points put forward rather than trying to turn it into a personal matter.

southsiderosie

Doc Ruby wrote: »

I'm sure the guards would be only delighted to pursue prosecutions if evidence existed. Has the Ombudsman been made aware of this racially aligned indifference?

I've already provided a link that showed that these groups felt that their issue was not being addressed, so I don't know why you are badgering me about it. But since the organizations are listed in the link, if you are that interested in the matter, you can follow up with them yourself.

Doc Ruby wrote: »

It says, and I quote, "having harboured many waves of historical immigration." Its right there.

If you count the Romans, Moors, and Visgoths as immigrants, then, yes. And if that is the definition of immigration we are talking about, then Ireland counts as a state that has experienced 'many waves of historical immigration' as well. However, since Spain has actually existed as a state, and not just a land mass at the tip of Europe that was historically contested by different empires and armies, it has not experienced immigration. Hence why Spain and Ireland are referred to as new destination states in all of the immigration literature.

Doc Ruby wrote: »

However you are correct about modernity, but still haven't addressed how hooligans in blackface roaring down racial abuse is seen as somehow "not racism" in Spain, except to handwave it as "casually racist", which is bizarre. Or how Spain's race riots contrasts with Ireland's lack thereof and lack of any sign of incipient race riots on the horizon.

Having been subjected to it myself, I'm not handwaving it. But I recognize the difference between casual racism from idiot individuals and institutional racism - which is a serious problem in many Western European countries.

Doc Ruby wrote: »

A vigorous rebuttal of your arguments is "increasingly combative" and pointing out the facts of widespread racism among the population of the north is "patronising"? Kindly address the points put forward rather than trying to turn it into a personal matter.

Eh, this whole exchange seems to be driven by your personal issue with pretty straightforward statements that I've made, so I'm going to stop here because this is already way off topic.

Doc Ruby

southsiderosie wrote: »

I've already provided a link that showed that these groups felt that their issue was not being addressed, so I don't know why you are badgering me about it. But since the organizations are listed in the link, if you are that interested in the matter, you can follow up with them yourself.

You know the guards get promotions in part due to the number of convictions they achieve, right? If they feel there is evidence they will go after it, unless you're trying to imply that the guards are a racist institution, which is a very serious allegation indeed.

southsiderosie wrote: »

Having been subjected to it myself, I'm not handwaving it. But I recognize the difference between casual racism from idiot individuals and institutional racism - which is a serious problem in many Western European countries.

Casual racism is typically a more serious problem since it indicates a general culture of racism throughout a society, and an acceptance of this. Paddy jokes, for example. Its a short step from there to taking action, like race riots, denying job applications, verbal and physical abuse. To fix institutions you just fix the rules. I'm not sure why you're trying to downplay one sort of racism, except that you seem to be fixated on Spain for some reason.

southsiderosie wrote: »

Eh, this whole exchange seems to be driven by your personal issue with pretty straightforward statements that I've made, so I'm going to stop here because this is already way off topic.

You can characterise arguments however you want when you're losing them. Personally I'm on great terms with immigrant communities around here on the personal and community level, and they seem to have a lot of time for me as well, lord knows why reprobate that I am, its great craic altogether.

I will continue to take pride in the Irish response to immigration, which is bereft of blackface, hooligans roaring at sportspeople, race riots, and all the social baggage of our enlightened European partners, and continue to laugh at the kind of mindset that feels this is somehow wrong.

But if that's how you feel, fair enough, there doesn't seem to be much point in carrying on the discussion.

JustinDee

This thread is about "foreign born" workers in the Irish economy. Racism is a different matter altogether or at best a different thread in Humanities section, surely?

I'm "foreign born", IRISH and excel in my job, a job which I love. Its my job and no-one else is entitled to it unless it becomes vacant for whatever reason.
Being born in Ireland entitles no-one to anything an Irish person born in another country owns, holds, possesses or occupies.

dublincelt

charlemont wrote: »

Most immigrant's I know have a deep appreciation and respect for this country as it has helped them improve their own life's.

People just have to deal with the fact that Ireland is an attractive place for lot's of people around the world, A stable democracy with freedom of worship and favourable living conditions will always attract people.

Anyway with all of the emigration from Ireland we are unique in western Europe with regard to our low dispersed population, Immigration will help to stabilise or reverse that.

Over time the immigrants and their children will be having a much larger say in how this country is run and it will give goombeenism a run for it's money.

I have absolutely no problem with people coming here to better their situation and contribute to society. However, is it economically viable long term to invite non nationals in, offer them free GP visits/medical cards, Rent allowance, all other applicable benefits when we as a nation are broke? I have lived in Australia, the USA and the UK in my time and I have worked hard and never required state benefits. I am lucky enough to have only been on the dole six weeks of my adult life. I have never had or sought free GP/medical cards, or rent allowance. I can't see the economic benefit of my taxes contributing to rent allowance/medical cards for the lower paid foreign workers whilst I pay exorbitant taxes. Maybe it's just me but I believe this to be the elephant in the room for a lot of people.

oscarBravo

dublincelt wrote: »

I can't see the economic benefit of my taxes contributing to rent allowance/medical cards for the lower paid foreign workers...

But you can see the economic benefit of your taxes contributing to those things for the lower paid Irish workers?

Peregrinus

Are you assuming that non-nationals are claiming things like free GP visits and social welfare benefits at a higher rate than Irish nationals? The reverse could very well be the case; non-nationals are working, and contributing through taxes, social insurance contributions and otherwise to benefits for nationals - just as you (presumably) did when living in Australia, the USA and the UK.

For your concern to have any legs, you need to show that non-nationals are over-represented among benefit claimants, and under-represented among taxpayers and social insurance contributors.

southsiderosie

Peregrinus wrote: »

Are you assuming that non-nationals are claiming things like free GP visits and social welfare benefits at a higher rate than Irish nationals? The reverse could very well be the case; non-nationals are working, and contributing through taxes, social insurance contributions and otherwise to benefits for nationals - just as you (presumably) did when living in Australia, the USA and the UK.

For your concern to have any legs, you need to show that non-nationals are over-represented among benefit claimants, and under-represented among taxpayers and social insurance contributors.

IIRC, in the boom years, foreign workers were over-represented in construction, hotels, and restaurant employment. Since those are the industries that tanked the hardest in the economic collapse, they are now over-represented in terms of social welfare. However, this is purely a function of where they were in the labor market.

mikemac1

Peregrinus wrote: »

For your concern to have any legs, you need to show that non-nationals are over-represented among benefit claimants, and under-represented among taxpayers and social insurance contributors.

One in five unemployed people in the country last year were non-Irish nationals, according to 2011 Census figures from the Central Statistics Office (CSO).

http://www.thejournal.ie/one-in-five-unemployed-2011-non-nationals-534685-Jul2012/

Nigerians had the highest unemployment rate amongst non nationals at 39 per cent while nationals from the Nordic countries had the lowest rates.
Among Eastern European nationals Lithuanian had an unemployment rate of 24 percent while the rate for Polish nationals was slightly lower at 21 percent.

You can prove anything with statistics.
The average live register figure I hear most is around 14%.
Would be higher of course only for working people heading for distant shores like Canada and elsewhere and a lot of the long term are on disability. Junkies are not on job seekers


Still though, 39%?
Maybe I'll be quoted and told some of the Nigerians are not allowed work as their claims are not finished yet.

It's just the figure that has been reported

To finish my post off it seems Irish people returning have it just as bad

Unemployment among these Irish immigrants stood at just over 33 per cent compared with a lower rate of 26 per cent for non-Irish immigrants.

JustinDee

dublincelt wrote: »

I have absolutely no problem with people coming here to better their situation and contribute to society. However, is it economically viable long term to invite non nationals in, offer them free GP visits/medical cards, Rent allowance, all other applicable benefits when we as a nation are broke? I have lived in Australia, the USA and the UK in my time and I have worked hard and never required state benefits. I am lucky enough to have only been on the dole six weeks of my adult life. I have never had or sought free GP/medical cards, or rent allowance. I can't see the economic benefit of my taxes contributing to rent allowance/medical cards for the lower paid foreign workers whilst I pay exorbitant taxes. Maybe it's just me but I believe this to be the elephant in the room for a lot of people.

Any taxpaying individual is a contributor to society and to the country's infrastructure in more ways than one. If you require welfare assistance and are entitled to it then that is your right.

Don't mix up 'asylum seeker' with 'immigrant'.

JustinDee

southsiderosie wrote: »

IIRC, in the boom years, foreign workers were over-represented in construction, hotels, and restaurant employment

This time actually saw the lowest amount of school-leavers not taking up third-level or further education, with a proportion even leaving school before finishing age.
The sector which welcomed the majority of this demograph was the construction industry mainly.