N.I catholics gains massively on the protestant population

woodoo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No the nationalist parties want unification no doubt but apparently the people voting for them don't.

I don't dispute that most people in the north want to remain with the UK., who could blame them at the min.

But the question asked in a poll can have a very large influence on the outcome. Asking if you would vote for unification tomorrow is much different to the sort of question Scotland will be asked. Do you think Ireland should be united. There are many in the north who would like to see unification but not tomorrow and not without a road-map or plan.

COYW

woodoo wrote: »

There are many in the north who would like to see unification but not tomorrow and not without a road-map or plan.

Who are these many? The latest poll does not support such a claim.

woodoo

COYW wrote: »

Who are these many? The latest poll does not support such a claim.

For the reasons i've outlined.

ardmacha

Who are these many? The latest poll does not support such a claim.

The poll didn't ask any question that could reasonably assess this. The many are those who vote for nationalist parties so that these parties can sort out the arrangements required.

Mr Cumulonimbus

woodoo wrote: »

I don't dispute that most people in the north want to remain with the UK., who could blame them at the min.

But the question asked in a poll can have a very large influence on the outcome. Asking if you would vote for unification tomorrow is much different to the sort of question Scotland will be asked. Do you think Ireland should be united.

Agreed. By inserting the word "tomorrow" into Q3, I believe what the question is really asking is: "which economy do you want to be part of at the moment?" The question I suspect, has little to do with finding out what people's political allegiances are if they were separated from current economic circumstances.

Who would blame people for answering this particularly worded question in the way that they did as it seems more to do with comparing economies than anything else.

ardmacha

Say you had poll in the 26 counties asking "Do you think the public finances should be balanced tomorrow?", most people would say no. If the poll said "Do you think the public finances should be balanced as soon as practicable?" then you would get a totally different. This is not remarkable, it is the sign of a reasonable person to vote in this way. Likewise with a United Ireland.

firemansam4

woodoo wrote: »

I don't dispute that most people in the north want to remain with the UK., who could blame them at the min.

But the question asked in a poll can have a very large influence on the outcome. Asking if you would vote for unification tomorrow is much different to the sort of question Scotland will be asked. Do you think Ireland should be united. There are many in the north who would like to see unification but not tomorrow and not without a road-map or plan.

It is for this reason that a vote at this time is not a good idea, it will clearly be an overwhelming vote for NI to stay part of the union.
If people don't want a UI now then they are probably not going to say they want it in the future either. But time changes opinions and I think opinions could very well change in many years to come, and if that happens when there is a sizable catholic majority in the north? well who knows.

woodoo

firemansam4 wrote: »

It is for this reason that a vote at this time is not a good idea, it will clearly be an overwhelming vote for NI to stay part of the union.
If people don't want a UI now then they are probably not going to say they want it in the future either. But time changes opinions and I think opinions could very well change in many years to come, and if that happens when there is a sizable catholic majority in the north? well who knows.

I think no matter what the timing they only way a UI will be possible is if we have more to offer NI than they have staying in the union. I can only see that happen if London tires of subsidising the north and asks them to balance their own books. And they struggle to do so. Either that or if England or Scotland break up the union and joining us is better than being independent.

gallag

It does show people dont really care about a UI anymore, there is no burning desire if some money is the deciding factor, It will only take a few years of parents not singing old IRA songs and ranting to their children about how great a UI would be and the children being immersed in British culture, sport and lifestyle etc for them to be proud brits. 20 years from now there could be union flags on the falls. If the UK continues to make amends for its past and keep improving its self into a welcoming, liberal and free society where a young Catholic from the falls has as mush chance and opertunity as a kid born in london then why not? Why can all sections of N.I not be proud to be a modern day brit? I can understand why this would be a frankly ridiculous idea when Catholics were disadvantaged and felt second class but modern Britain is very diffrent and I really hope my Catholic neighbours can feel pride in modern Britain because they have helped shape it and are a part of it.

Squatman

gallag wrote: »

It does show people dont really care about a UI anymore, there is no burning desire if some money is the deciding factor, It will only take a few years of parents not singing old IRA songs and ranting to their children about how great a UI would be and the children being immersed in British culture, sport and lifestyle etc for them to be proud brits. 20 years from now there could be union flags on the falls. If the UK continues to make amends for its past and keep improving its self into a welcoming, liberal and free society where a young Catholic from the falls has as mush chance and opertunity as a kid born in london then why not? Why can all sections of N.I not be proud to be a modern day brit? I can understand why this would be a frankly ridiculous idea when Catholics were disadvantaged and felt second class but modern Britain is very diffrent and I really hope my Catholic neighbours can feel pride in modern Britain because they have helped shape it and are a part of it.

So do you think the flag protests would make catholics feel proud to be part of britain?
Also, last time I checked, Northern Ireland is a constituent part of the island of Ireland whereas Britain is a separate neighbouring island - maybe its time for you to brush up on geography:eek:

gallag

Squatman wrote: »

So do you think the flag protests would make catholics feel proud to be part of britain?
Also, last time I checked, Northern Ireland is a constituent part of the island of Ireland whereas Britain is a separate neighbouring island - maybe its time for you to brush up on geography:eek:

Are the flag protests what define modern Britain? The rest is being pedantic.

woodoo

Mr Cumulonimbus wrote: »

Agreed. By inserting the word "tomorrow" into Q3, I believe what the question is really asking is: "which economy do you want to be part of at the moment?" The question I suspect, has little to do with finding out what people's political allegiances are if they were separated from current economic circumstances.

Who would blame people for answering this particularly worded question in the way that they did as it seems more to do with comparing economies than anything else.

Exactly imagine the other end of the scale if they had of asked 'in your lifetime' instead of 'tomorrow'.

woodoo

gallag wrote: »

It does show people dont really care about a UI anymore, there is no burning desire if some money is the deciding factor, It will only take a few years of parents not singing old IRA songs and ranting to their children about how great a UI would be and the children being immersed in British culture, sport and lifestyle etc for them to be proud brits. 20 years from now there could be union flags on the falls. If the UK continues to make amends for its past and keep improving its self into a welcoming, liberal and free society where a young Catholic from the falls has as mush chance and opertunity as a kid born in london then why not? Why can all sections of N.I not be proud to be a modern day brit? I can understand why this would be a frankly ridiculous idea when Catholics were disadvantaged and felt second class but modern Britain is very diffrent and I really hope my Catholic neighbours can feel pride in modern Britain because they have helped shape it and are a part of it.

I think that is a possibility it is already happening with people like Rory McIllroy.

I'd like to see a peaceful UI. But if i don't see it in my lifetime i won't be all that bothered. TBF a majority of people in the south wouldn't want one either if it brought strife and made us all poorer. What would be the point.

I still think it makes better sense in the long run. 7 or 8 million people on the island working together would make a viable country. The North is going to be a dependent state in perpetuity imo which is far from ideal in the long run. But if people don't want it then it won't work. People aren't willing to invest the 10 to 20 years it would take to get it up and running so they will vote for the status quo.

SoulandForm

woodoo wrote: »

I still think it makes better sense in the long run. 7 or 8 million people on the island working together would make a viable country. The North is going to be a dependent state in perpetuity imo which is far from ideal in the long run. But if people don't want it then it won't work. People aren't willing to invest the 10 to 20 years it would take to get it up and running so they will vote for the status quo.

The North was far ahead of the South at the time of Partition. Now the South is far ahead of the North- but this is a product of colonialism. Its the same with all the Celtic fringe of the UK. Wales should be one of the richest countries in Europe and instead its one of the poorest- with the money from its slate and coal laying in English bank accounts. The money that London throws at Northern Ireland is designed to keep it dependent. They want to hold onto Northern Ireland for various reason- some strategic, some ideological. Unchain the North and it could well again over take the south. However in reality Northern Ireland is probably doomed to be a sectarian back water that people look funny at in the medium term.

firemansam4

gallag wrote: »

It does show people dont really care about a UI anymore, there is no burning desire if some money is the deciding factor, It will only take a few years of parents not singing old IRA songs and ranting to their children about how great a UI would be and the children being immersed in British culture, sport and lifestyle etc for them to be proud brits. 20 years from now there could be union flags on the falls. If the UK continues to make amends for its past and keep improving its self into a welcoming, liberal and free society where a young Catholic from the falls has as mush chance and opertunity as a kid born in london then why not? Why can all sections of N.I not be proud to be a modern day brit? I can understand why this would be a frankly ridiculous idea when Catholics were disadvantaged and felt second class but modern Britain is very diffrent and I really hope my Catholic neighbours can feel pride in modern Britain because they have helped shape it and are a part of it.

Sorry but I think this is a ridiculous notion! Maybe for a small section of catholic society you might be right but union flags on the falls? that is almost laughable, it will never happen in my lifetime anyway.
For starters things are not as rosy as some like to paint it to be in the north, you only have to look at the flag protests to see that things could easily kick off again very easily.
And then we are going to have the marching season every year, which always stirs up bitterness and hatred between the communities every year.

There is a big difference in Catholics not wanting to be part of a UI to what you are suggesting. it is farcical.

Chuck Stone

SoulandForm wrote: »

They want to hold onto Northern Ireland for various reason- some strategic, some ideological.

Who are 'they' and what are the strategic/ideological reasons they have for bankrolling the north?

SoulandForm

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Who are 'they' and what are the strategic/ideological reasons they have for bankrolling the north?

Ireland is the backdoor into the UK mainland. The need to maintain a garrison here.

Preventing the break up of the United Kingdom which could endanger their seat on the UN Security Council.

gallag

firemansam4 wrote: »

Sorry but I think this is a ridiculous notion! Maybe for a small section of catholic society you might be right but union flags on the falls? that is almost laughable, it will never happen in my lifetime anyway.
For starters things are not as rosy as some like to paint it to be in the north, you only have to look at the flag protests to see that things could easily kick off again very easily.
And then we are going to have the marching season every year, which always stirs up bitterness and hatred between the communities every year.

There is a big difference in Catholics not wanting to be part of a UI to what you are suggesting. it is farcical.

Back in the 60's it would have been equally hard to believe English football shirts would be worn on mass on the falls, its just part of the normalisation process. I also look forward to the day we can hoist the tricolour on official buildings and on the Shankill road to celebrate with our neighbours on paddys day etc.

SoulandForm

gallag wrote: »

Back in the 60's it would have been equally hard to believe English football shirts would be worn on mass on the falls, its just part of the normalisation process. I also look forward to the day we can hoist the tricolour on official buildings and on the Shankill road to celebrate with our neighbours on paddys day etc.

Paddy's day was invented by the Scotch Irish in the USA. It would make more sense for the Shankhill to celebrate it than the Falls.

In case you havent noticed separatist parties have risen to serious numbers in both Scotland and Wales something also that was unimaginable in the 1960s.

People didnt wear football shirts in the 1960s but that doesnt mean that they didnt support teams.

Chuck Stone

SoulandForm wrote: »

Ireland is the backdoor into the UK mainland. The need to maintain a garrison here.

We're more like an outhouse than a back door. The English Channel is the back door.

Anyway, back door for who? You're aware that the UK military could wreck the island pretty quickly from the air and occupy it quick enough too if they really needed to.

Preventing the break up of the United Kingdom which could endanger their seat on the UN Security Council.

England/London with no seat on the UNSC? Not likely.

[Jackass]

Of those questioned, 40% said they were British only, with the remaining 8% choosing British along with another one of the identities, such as British and Irish or British and Northern Irish.

A quarter of the population defined themselves as Irish only, while 21% said they were Northern Irish only.

I find this part of the census disapointing, that of those "catholic" they chose to identify themselves as Northern Irish as a seperate nation as opposed to Irish as wanting re-unification, where as the "prodestant" proportion consider themselves very hard line British before anything else.

It seem the Orange side of Northern Ireland is a lot more hardcore about being British than the Green side of Northern Ireland is about being part of Ireland.

I mean it is what it is, I'm not saying either way is right or wrong, but I do personally find it disapointing that those of Irish origin would not take a view of unification it would seem, whilst those of Scotch / English origin very much have stern historical ties to their identity and protecting it.

Happyman42

gallag wrote: »

Back in the 60's it would have been equally hard to believe English football shirts would be worn on mass on the falls,

This hoary old nonsense.

Anyone who thinks that supporting an English football team has anything to do with their stance as a Republican is only understanding the issues in a very tabloid shallow way.

Bertie Woot

[Jackass] wrote: »

I find this part of the census disapointing, that of those "catholic" they chose to identify themselves as Northern Irish as a seperate nation as opposed to Irish as wanting re-unification, where as the "prodestant" proportion consider themselves very hard line British before anything else.

It seem the Orange side of Northern Ireland is a lot more hardcore about being British than the Green side of Northern Ireland is about being part of Ireland.

I mean it is what it is, I'm not saying either way is right or wrong, but I do personally find it disapointing that those of Irish origin would not take a view of unification it would seem, whilst those of Scotch / English origin very much have stern historical ties to their identity and protecting it.

I'm very surprised by the fact that many young Catholics in NI are embracing NI's place within the UK and instead of identifying as Irish are instead preferring to look upon themselves as Northern Irish. This surprising development effectively legitimises Northern Ireland as a political entity.

The British Unionist Protestants are no doubt very pleased by this development, as although the percentage of Catholics in NI has risen, the union with Great Britain still looks safe. And most of the new Catholics are Polish immigrants who I would imagine would be non-partisan in terms of NI politics, so again, the rise in Catholics does not immediately threaten the union.

The task of Sinn Fein and indeed the Unionist parties is to attract the votes of as many of these newcomers as possible, and it shall be interesting to see how things pan out in coming years. One thing is for certain; SF's call for a border poll is premature, and if one goes ahead it shall only confirm that at the moment most people in NI want NI to remain part of the United Kingdom.

woodoo

Bertie Woot wrote: »

I'm very surprised by the fact that many young Catholics in NI are embracing NI's place within the UK and instead of identifying as Irish are instead preferring to look upon themselves as Northern Irish. This surprising development effectively legitimises Northern Ireland as a political entity.

The British Unionist Protestants are no doubt very pleased by this development, as although the percentage of Catholics in NI has risen, the union with Great Britain still looks safe. And most of the new Catholics are Polish immigrants who I would imagine would be non-partisan in terms of NI politics, so again, the rise in Catholics does not immediately threaten the union.

Its very interesting, the future of northern ireland is unpredictable. Things are changing quite fast up there. The old guard of the PUL numbers are falling. The rising population of catholics will be making the decisions up there soon. How the place is governed will change. The DUP UUP type parties will be losing grip. The death or Protestant triumphalism can only be a good thing. They wouldn't have the numbers to bully anymore regardless of the constitutional position of NI.

cj maxx

woodoo wrote: »

Its very interesting, the future of northern ireland is unpredictable. Things are changing quite fast up there. The old guard of the PUL numbers are falling. The rising population of catholics will be making the decisions up there soon. How the place is governed will change. The DUP UUP type parties will be losing grip. The death or Protestant triumphalism can only be a good thing. They wouldn't have the numbers to bully anymore regardless of the constitutional position of NI.

I havent followed this thread closely so im only giving a opinion that may be off topic . But when taking in the catholic populations political leaning one should take into account the urban/ rural divide . It seems to me that those catholics who are rural and generally west of the bible belt would overwhelmly see themselves as irish , not ni or uk . Those in the urban parts in easy reach of dublin/ belfast are more divided between irish/ nirish . Throw into the mix the state if things in the republic , we shouldn't expect them to vote for a united ireland . Im a border resident and am seriously thinking of moving north . Irrespective of protestant/ catholic ratios any poll on reunification is doomed

Thomas_I

gallag wrote: »

It does show people dont really care about a UI anymore, there is no burning desire if some money is the deciding factor, It will only take a few years of parents not singing old IRA songs and ranting to their children about how great a UI would be and the children being immersed in British culture, sport and lifestyle etc for them to be proud brits. 20 years from now there could be union flags on the falls. If the UK continues to make amends for its past and keep improving its self into a welcoming, liberal and free society where a young Catholic from the falls has as mush chance and opertunity as a kid born in london then why not? Why can all sections of N.I not be proud to be a modern day brit? I can understand why this would be a frankly ridiculous idea when Catholics were disadvantaged and felt second class but modern Britain is very diffrent and I really hope my Catholic neighbours can feel pride in modern Britain because they have helped shape it and are a part of it.

The UK is already a welcoming, liberal and free society. The difference is just to find in NI which is decades behind Great Britain due to the troubles. Improvements started to develop just after the GFA and you surely know the answer to your question re a proud modern day brit. There´s no way to have that now and these flag protests have done such attempts a "very good service" to be rejected.

I´d suggest that it´s better to leave it to the individual to choose for him-/herself what he / she likes to be, Irish or British or even both. It´s all this ongoing rivalism on national identity. Unionists like to have all people identifing themselves as British and Republicans insisting on Irish.

In all this, I think it´s a good point when people starting to indentify themselves as Northern Irish which can be seen like an answer as if they´re fed up with all these Brits versus Irish without a solution that satisfies all people in NI. Could be some reason behind that.

Ozymandius2011

Bertie Woot wrote: »

I'm very surprised by the fact that many young Catholics in NI are embracing NI's place within the UK and instead of identifying as Irish are instead preferring to look upon themselves as Northern Irish. This surprising development effectively legitimises Northern Ireland as a political entity.

The British Unionist Protestants are no doubt very pleased by this development, as although the percentage of Catholics in NI has risen, the union with Great Britain still looks safe. And most of the new Catholics are Polish immigrants who I would imagine would be non-partisan in terms of NI politics, so again, the rise in Catholics does not immediately threaten the union.

The task of Sinn Fein and indeed the Unionist parties is to attract the votes of as many of these newcomers as possible, and it shall be interesting to see how things pan out in coming years. One thing is for certain; SF's call for a border poll is premature, and if one goes ahead it shall only confirm that at the moment most people in NI want NI to remain part of the United Kingdom.

Looking at the internals of the poll, it's clear that older Catholics are much more in the pro-Union camp.

thecommietommy

Ozymandius2011 wrote: »

Looking at the internals of the poll, it's clear that older Catholics are much more in the pro-Union camp.

Interesting, have you the link for that ?

woodoo

I think the Sunday Independent poll today gives a bit of insight to the NI poll. I can't remember the results completely but a total of 61% of respondents said they would like to see a UI. But the question was broken down further into people asked if they would like to see reunification immediately (ie. similar to the Norths Question tomorrow) and only 25% said they want to see a UI immediately. The rest of the 61% said they either want to see in in the medium term or the long term.

The 17% figure in the North that asked a very specific question including the work tomorrow is not a true representation on the feelings towards a UI in the north.

PRAF

The whole Catholic vs Protestant thing is depressing IMO. Most Catholics I know believe that women should be allowed be priests, that priests should be allowed marry, that celibacy should not be a mandatory requirement for clergy, etc. the differences between your average Catholic and Protestant are very small. These two Christian religions are so alike it is a shame there has been so much tension between them over the years

I really wish people would stop linking politics and religion. In truth, I find Ireland's links with Catholicism to be greatly stained as regards clerical sex abuse, magdalen laundries, etc.

I hope we get a UI one day. But I hope it's because we managed to convince the unionists of the merits of it rather than simply outnumbering them.

sanbrafyffe

very well said mate,,congrats to you,well written

PRAF wrote: »

The whole Catholic vs Protestant thing is depressing IMO. Most Catholics I know believe that women should be allowed be priests, that priests should be allowed marry, that celibacy should not be a mandatory requirement for clergy, etc. the differences between your average Catholic and Protestant are very small. These two Christian religions are so alike it is a shame there has been so much tension between them over the years

I really wish people would stop linking politics and religion. In truth, I find Ireland's links with Catholicism to be greatly stained as regards clerical sex abuse, magdalen laundries, etc.

I hope we get a UI one day. But I hope it's because we managed to convince the unionists of the merits of it rather than simply outnumbering them.

NIMAN

PRAF wrote: »

the differences between your average Catholic and Protestant are very small. These two Christian religions are so alike it is a shame there has been so much tension between them over the years /QUOTE]

So so true.

Its a pity ancient history is allowed to get in the way so much, and hold a country back for so long.

The '2 communities' have a lot more in common with each other than they think, and politicians should be getting elected on their policies on jobs, health, education etc instead of simply because they come from 'a certain side'. But I do think its in a lot of peoples interests to keep the 2 sides at each others throats and keep the bigotry going.

Bertie Woot

NIMAN wrote: »

PRAF wrote: »

the differences between your average Catholic and Protestant are very small. These two Christian religions are so alike it is a shame there has been so much tension between them over the years /QUOTE]

So so true.

Its a pity ancient history is allowed to get in the way so much, and hold a country back for so long.

The '2 communities' have a lot more in common with each other than they think, and politicians should be getting elected on their policies on jobs, health, education etc instead of simply because they come from 'a certain side'. But I do think its in a lot of peoples interests to keep the 2 sides at each others throats and keep the bigotry going.

Who benefits from keeping the bigotry going?

gallag

Bertie Woot wrote: »

NIMAN wrote: »

Who benefits from keeping the bigotry going?

Flag sellers?

Thomas_I

gallag wrote: »

Flag sellers?

Probably, but they don´t benefit from me because I´ve already several Union Flags in different sizes in my Flag collection, but only one large sized Irish Flag. I just don´t use them in public, just one sticker (the only flag sticker at all) on the rear of my car is the Union Flag.

Some sign of "patriotism" by myself? Maybe (probably I´ve shown my true colours by this statement).

getz

Thomas_I wrote: »

Probably, but they don´t benefit from me because I´ve already several Union Flags in different sizes in my Flag collection, but only one large sized Irish Flag. I just don´t use them in public, just one sticker (the only flag sticker at all) on the rear of my car is the Union Flag.

Some sign of "patriotism" by myself? Maybe (probably I´ve shown my true colours by this statement).

same as you,i have a union flag sticker on my car,only difference is that mine is cut out in the shape of the rock of gibraltar ,with the words of keep gibralter british on the bottom,it was sent to my wife[gibraltar born] by the gib goverment

Thomas_I

getz wrote: »

same as you,i have a union flag sticker on my car,only difference is that mine is cut out in the shape of the rock of gibraltar ,with the words of keep gibralter british on the bottom,it was sent to my wife[gibraltar born] by the gib goverment

Not bad, I´ve never seen such an sticker before.

getz

Thomas_I wrote: »

Not bad, I´ve never seen such an sticker before.

came about when tony blair was having talks with the spanish PM,and they got worried he was trying to sell them out,they even sent her a load of metal badges,with the same message on them.

Thomas_I

getz wrote: »

came about when tony blair was having talks with the spanish PM,and they got worried he was trying to sell them out,they even sent her a load of metal badges,with the same message on them.

This must have been some years ago. I can´t remember this exactly. It says, that as long as there are apes on that rock, as long it stays British. Hopefully some politicians won´t come to idea to sell the Channel Islands to France.

getz

Thomas_I wrote: »

This must have been some years ago. I can´t remember this exactly. It says, that as long as there are apes on that rock, as long it stays British. Hopefully some politicians won´t come to idea to sell the Channel Islands to France.

i dont think the channel isles are owned by britain,as they are a peculair to the crown,and self govening,they are not part of the UK,so the UK cannot pass the likes of jersey to france, takes a lawyer to understand what that means

Thomas_I

getz wrote: »

i dont think the channel isles are owned by britain,as they are a peculair to the crown,and self govening,they are not part of the UK,so the UK cannot pass the likes of jersey to france, takes a lawyer to understand what that means

Yes, I know that. It´s a bit complicated to explain and the legislation goes back some centuries. HM the Queen is the "Head of State" on these islands. That´s what I know fom a short documentary about the Channel Islands. Some nice places there, from what I´ve seen in this documentary. Really worth a visit.