N.I catholics gains massively on the protestant population

Crooked Jack

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But there are people here 'a whoopin and a hollirin' about the fact that the population gap has been bridges between Catholic and Protestant and how good it is for a united Ireland while ignoring the fact that a mere 26% of the population and only 50% of the Catholic population see themselves as anyway Irish.

Where are these people who are "whoopin and hollerin," the only people who seem to be getting excited about the results are unionist politicians who go on the defensive as soon as the census is mentioned. They've been getting very flustered on the radio about them all day.
The thing is these results prove nothing and anyone can use them to back up their argument.
I could for example point out that people who consider themselves to be British are now in a minority.
Stack these up next to election results and they're totally incompatible in many respects.
The only real way to find out people's real opinions is with a border poll.

Crooked Jack

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Not my national identity no, but it certainly is one. A new flourishing national identity distinct from the southerners. Honestly I can't understand why you care so much. The troubles has (excluding the last few days) all but died down. We're onto a good thing here stop trying to upset the apple cart.

It's far from a national identity. It's certainly an identity of some sort, similar to the western identity the other poster pointed to earlier, but to claim it's a national identity is laughable. For a start the north isnt even a nation.
Im baffled as to why you "honestly cant understand" why I care about the future of my country. I suppose I'm just socially conscious like that.
What on earth the Troubles has to do with my right to hold whatever political opinion I choose is equally baffling. "The Troubles are over, stop being Irish/Nationalist/Republican." You really do fail to see the point.
As for "upsetting the apple cart," cant help you out there. this apple cart is rotten and needs a good long shake.

junder

So it was unionist politicians that started this thread then?

mcc1

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Crooked Jack

junder wrote: »

So it was unionist politicians that started this thread then?

What has that got to do with anything? all sorts of people start all sorts of threads for all sorts of reasons.
Switch on the news and listen to Gregory Campbell and the rest of the DUP and UUP tripping over themselves to talk about how delighted they are.
Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

junder

Crooked Jack wrote: »

No republicans are rejoicing in anybody using the frankly daft and nonsensical term "northern Irish."
What is somewhat heartening however is that people who consider themselves British are now in the minority.
"Chip, chip chipping away," as Mike Nesbitt has repeated ad nauseum this week

I come from Northern Ireland and I am northern Irish, how is that daft?

Crooked Jack

junder wrote: »

I come from Northern Ireland and I am northern Irish, how is that daft?

And is that your national identity? Bearing in mind that "northern" Ireland is not a nation. Perhaps your national identity is British, despite the fact that if you're from "northern" Ireland you are clearly not from Britain.
How is it not daft?

But please, tell me about this "northern" Irish identity and how it is different from any other regional Irish identity because any time anyone has ever tried to explain it to me all they have done is describe Unionism/loyalism or give a vague outline of the habits (and weirdly accents, accents seem very important to them) of a certain section of people living in an area around north down/belfast/bits of antrim and parts of east Derry.

The notion of a "northern" Irish national identity as distinct from an irish one is laughable and kind of pathetic.

Iwasfrozen

Crooked Jack wrote: »

It's far from a national identity. It's certainly an identity of some sort, similar to the western identity the other poster pointed to earlier, but to claim it's a national identity is laughable. For a start the north isnt even a nation.
Im baffled as to why you "honestly cant understand" why I care about the future of my country. I suppose I'm just socially conscious like that.
What on earth the Troubles has to do with my right to hold whatever political opinion I choose is equally baffling. "The Troubles are over, stop being Irish/Nationalist/Republican." You really do fail to see the point.
As for "upsetting the apple cart," cant help you out there. this apple cart is rotten and needs a good long shake.

Says who? This is the crux of the matter. You don't get to determine what is and isn't a nation.

StudentDad

Crooked Jack wrote: »

The notion of a "northern" Irish national identity as distinct from an irish one is laughable and kind of pathetic.

You attitude is frankly laughable. Who the hell are you to decide what brand of 'Irish Identity' is acceptable? If someone in Northern Ireland decides they are Northern Irish that is their decision - not yours.

We in the Republic do not 'own' the right to call ourselves Irish.

SD

Crooked Jack

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Says who? This is the crux of the matter. You don't get to determine what is and isn't a nation.

I know I dont, which is why I use the definition of the word "nation," that determines what is and isnt a nation and it in no way applies to the six counties.

Chips Lovell

Crooked Jack wrote: »

It's far from a national identity. It's certainly an identity of some sort, similar to the western identity the other poster pointed to earlier, but to claim it's a national identity is laughable. For a start the north isnt even a nation.

Is it any less laughable than someone from Wales saying that they were Welsh? There are several different national identities within the UK and some people would associate themselves more with these than the general term "British".

Crooked Jack

StudentDad wrote: »

You attitude is frankly laughable. Who the hell are you to decide what brand of 'Irish Identity' is acceptable? If someone in Northern Ireland decides they are Northern Irish that is their decision - not yours.

We in the Republic do not 'own' the right to call ourselves Irish.

SD

I have said absolutely nothing of the sort. People can identify as northern in the same way they can as western, eastern or southern. I said that the notion of a "northern" Irish identity as a national identity, is laughable and it is.
But you're right, it is their decision. I can decide to identify as Klingon and that's my decision, but it doesnt make it any less stupid.
And no, the term Irish belongs to everyone on the island and those from here who have gone further afield, which is exactly my point.
You're damn right you in the 26 counties dont own the term Irish

StudentDad

I'm getting the distinct impression that 'Nationalists' south of the border are bloody terrified of a distinct 'Northern Irish' identity emerging that is entirely separate from the south. A grouping of people who class themselves not just Irish - Northern Irish - and maybe even British.

A group of people who are happy to live in a Northern Ireland that gives them a fair shake and a good life and just happens to be part of the UK.

If it works why the hell not?

SD

Crooked Jack

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Is it any less laughable than someone from Wales saying that they were Welsh? There are several different national identities within the UK and some people would associate themselves more with these than the general term "British".

No, it's much more laughable than that.
What would be equally laughable is a few counties in the north east of Wales declaring that they are now Northern Welsh and suddenly have a totally different national identity from the rest of Wales.

Crooked Jack

StudentDad wrote: »

I'm getting the distinct impression that 'Nationalists' south of the border are bloody terrified of a distinct 'Northern Irish' identity emerging that is entirely separate from the south. A grouping of people who class themselves not just Irish - Northern Irish - and maybe even British.

A group of people who are happy to live in a Northern Ireland that gives them a fair shake and a good life and just happens to be part of the UK.

If it works why the hell not?

SD

If that's a reference to me, I'm from the north. And what about the past week, nay, the past 90 years, has given you the impression that the north works.

StudentDad

Crooked Jack wrote: »

I have said absolutely nothing of the sort. People can identify as northern in the same way they can as western, eastern or southern. I said that the notion of a "northern" Irish identity as a national identity, is laughable and it is.
But you're right, it is their decision. I can decide to identify as Klingon and that's my decision, but it doesnt make it any less stupid.
And no, the term Irish belongs to everyone on the island and those from here who have gone further afield, which is exactly my point.
You're damn right you in the 26 counties dont own the term Irish

Actually it's the Republic of Ireland, not the 26 counties. A separate country. In exactly the same way as Northern Ireland is a separate country.

So if someone in NI decides to class themselves as Northern Irish - that does not make it ridiculous.

SD

Chips Lovell

In fairness though, it isn't really like that. The UK is England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Each has a separate political and cultural identity.

Your counter-argument isn't really analogous. It's not like its the UK is England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and Some Bit Of North Wales.

StudentDad

Crooked Jack wrote: »

If that's a reference to me, I'm from the north. And what about the past week, nay, the past 90 years, has given you the impression that the north works.

That's the joy of politics - 1 step forward - 2 steps back. That said, so long as progress is being made - that's what matters.

Sure there are places in the North that are divided. What's the alternative?

SD

mcc1

Its no surprise that 61% of people believe themselves to be British/Northern Irish and that 25% consider themselves Irish when you consider that 59% of people in N.Ireland hold a UK passport, while 21% hold an Irish passport, all more or less adds up. Understandable why Republicans are getting worried.

Lelantos

Crooked Jack wrote: »

I have said absolutely nothing of the sort. People can identify as northern in the same way they can as western, eastern or southern. I said that the notion of a "northern" Irish identity as a national identity, is laughable and it is.
But you're right, it is their decision. I can decide to identify as Klingon and that's my decision, but it doesnt make it any less stupid.
And no, the term Irish belongs to everyone on the island and those from here who have gone further afield, which is exactly my point.
You're damn right you in the 26 counties dont own the term Irish

Your basic argument is flawed in so far as you belive that the term Northern Ireland is merely a geographical term. It isn't, and to compare it to the west if Ireland is frankly ridiculous & demeaning to the people of that nation.

ardmacha

Actually it's the Republic of Ireland, not the 26 counties. A separate country

.

You'll get a debate on the Republic of Ireland bit, but I am pretty sure it contains 26 counties and it isn't a country, but rather a state.

There is a great deal of nonsense on this thread, as always. The point is that the colonial ethic supremicists are now in a minority in NI and this minority will decline in the future. You are left with an out and out nationalists and pragmatists. This makes a United Ireland inevitable in the future, perhaps further into the future than some of us would prefer, because this is simple normality.

There are interesting facts in the detail of these statistics, banging on about the definition of Northern Irish or whether people have a British passport is pointless.

StudentDad

ardmacha wrote: »

.

You'll get a debate on the Republic of Ireland bit, but I am pretty sure it contains 26 counties and it isn't a country, but rather a state.

We live on an island with two countries on it. Yes there are twenty six counties in the Republic of Ireland and six counties in Northern Ireland. However, referring to this country as merely being a State is frankly insulting both to citizens of the Republic and to citizens of Northern Ireland.

SD

gurramok

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Says who? This is the crux of the matter. You don't get to determine what is and isn't a nation.

NI ain't a nation. Its two peoples belonging to two different nations, you know that.

StudentDad wrote: »

However, referring to this country as merely being a State is frankly insulting both to citizens of the Republic and to citizens of Northern Ireland.

SD

Not insulting me.

gurramok

mcc1 wrote: »

Its no surprise that 61% of people believe themselves to be British/Northern Irish and that 25% consider themselves Irish when you consider that 59% of people in N.Ireland hold a UK passport, while 21% hold an Irish passport, all more or less adds up. Understandable why Republicans are getting worried.

It was alot harder and took effort for a NI citizen to obtain an Irish passport pre 1998, thats why UK passport numbers are high there. After 1998, granting of Irish passports to NI citizens rocketed as they are easier to obtain and apply for.

StudentDad

gurramok wrote: »

Not insulting me.

Fair enough Although, to simply describe the Republic as a mere State to my mind does not do it justice.

SD

sanbrafyffe

just to be clear student dad,,,northern ireland is not a country and never can be,,,n.i has an assembly just like walse,,,other side scotland has a government because if they ever decided to go alone in the future they would be able too

under the GFA it states that n.i can never go it alone,,,it can be only be governed by the british or the irish governments and that can be determined by the peoples choice

StudentDad wrote: »

We live on an island with two countries on it. Yes there are twenty six counties in the Republic of Ireland and six counties in Northern Ireland. However, referring to this country as merely being a State is frankly insulting both to citizens of the Republic and to citizens of Northern Ireland.

SD

Fr Tod Umptious

StudentDad wrote: »

We live on an island with two countries on it. Yes there are twenty six counties in the Republic of Ireland and six counties in Northern Ireland. However, referring to this country as merely being a State is frankly insulting both to citizens of the Republic and to citizens of Northern Ireland.

SD

That's the problem with some of a certain mind set

If the truth do not conform to their way of thinking they go and get pedantic and term and words, and definitions

Reality is 74% of people in Northern Ireland do not see themselves as Irish

Rhys Essien

StudentDad wrote: »

We live on an island with two countries on it. Yes there are twenty six counties in the Republic of Ireland and six counties in Northern Ireland. However, referring to this country as merely being a State is frankly insulting both to citizens of the Republic and to citizens of Northern Ireland.

SD

According to the Brits themselves,everyone from the island of Ireland is 'Irish'.

View

ardmacha wrote: »

.

You'll get a debate on the Republic of Ireland bit, but I am pretty sure it contains 26 counties and it isn't a country, but rather a state.

Go count the number of County Councils (and County Borough Councils) and let us know if it is 26.

This attachment to the counties created by Henry VIII is rather quaint. Where does he fit on the pantheon of "Irish heroes" again?

StudentDad

sanbrafyffe wrote: »

just to be clear student dad,,,northern ireland is not a country and never can be,,,n.i has an assembly just like walse,,,other side scotland has a government because if they ever decided to go alone in the future they would be able too

under the GFA it states that n.i can never go it alone,,,it can be only be governed by the british or the irish governments and that can be determined by the peoples choice

In real terms the North has the modern equivalent of Home Rule. Things are a bit rocky at the moment. What does that mean in real terms?

Right now you say they could never go it alone. Definitions change, politics change. Assuming the NI assembly continues to function and at some point in the future the idea grows that NI wants to go it's own way. It's something that London and Dublin would find nigh on impossible to stop.

SD

Chips Lovell

I'd be wary about ascribing too much to people's passport choices. While I've no doubt that there are plenty in Northern Ireland who would see which passport they carry as a signifier of their political preferences, there's also likely to be people who chose a particular passport for reasons of convenience.

StudentDad

Rhys Essien wrote: »

According to the Brits themselves,everyone from the island of Ireland is 'Irish'.

I've no problem with that. This is true. However, some people classify themselves as being Northern Irish. There is nothing wrong with that.

Try telling a Canadian that he's American and see what response you get

SD

gurramok

StudentDad wrote: »

Right now you say they could never go it alone. Definitions change, politics change. Assuming the NI assembly continues to function and at some point in the future the idea grows that NI wants to go it's own way. It's something that London and Dublin would find nigh on impossible to stop.

They can't afford to go it alone. Ask any Unionist if they would take a massive hike in taxes to pay for a go alone NI as they lose the British subsidy, they then change their tune.

Fr Tod Umptious wrote:

Reality is 74% of people in Northern Ireland do not see themselves as Irish

Wrong. Do you always have a habit of insulting the Irish in NI?

StudentDad

gurramok wrote: »

They can't afford to go it alone. Ask any Unionist if they would take a massive hike in taxes to pay for a go alone NI as they lose the British subsidy, they then change their tune.

That would be a decision for them to make. It does not change the fact that if at some point in the future if they chose to make that decision - it's theirs to make.

SD

poeticseraphim

The population of NI does not wish to join the ROI and never will.

However some refuse to accept their choice and wishes.

It is also true within the Catholic pop.

However many wish to have a better relationship with the ROI and Irish people in the south and Irish culture.

Many refuse to accept that wish too.

And of course there are those who wish there to be a special union with the UK.

If tomorrow NI became a part of the ROI...it wouldnot change a goddam thing....still the same issues and still the same only way of solving it.

Better relations between NI the ROI and the UK...and perhaps some power sharing of ROI NI and the UK in NI...with Irish UK and NI citizens allowed freedom of movement...or something.

But there are too many Unionists to simply think you could have a United Ireland and thats the end of it.

We KNOW what happens historically if you draw a line and leave a significant number of people on the wrong side.

The majority in NI in both communities want to remain in the UK...but want a close ROI connection...and a close UK connection...deny either of those and you get into trouble

We could have all these things if those who have much to gain by continuing the conflict would allow it.

The Colonialist Unionists are the minority...in fact it is a tiny one..but you cannot deny the identity of moderates...that would only radicalize moderate unionists.

Regardless of what happens the UK is still our neighbour and NI is still made up of two communities....that is never going to change...

Crooked Jack

View wrote: »

Go count the number of County Councils (and County Borough Councils) and let us know if it is 26.

This attachment to the counties created by Henry VIII is rather quaint. Where does he fit on the pantheon of "Irish heroes" again?

Ah pedantry; it always provides a useful fall back when your argument has nowhere else to go.

Fr Tod Umptious

gurramok wrote: »

They can't afford to go it alone. Ask any Unionist if they would take a massive hike in taxes to pay for a go alone NI as they lose the British subsidy, they then change their tune.



Wrong. Do you always have a habit of insulting the Irish in NI?

What are you on about, please explain yourself ?

Based on the report you yourself attached

Only 26% odd see themselves as Irish only or Irish and Northern Irish only.

Therefore 74% do not see themselves as Irish only or Irish and Northern Irish only.

Crooked Jack

poeticseraphim wrote: »

The population of NI does not wish to join the ROI and never will.

Where'd you get your crystal ball? I want one.

gurramok

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

What are you on about, please explain yourself ?

Based on the report you yourself attached

Only 26% odd see themselves as Irish only or Irish and Northern Irish only.

Therefore 74% do not see themselves as Irish only or Irish and Northern Irish only.

Nope, you took it up wrong.

25% see themselves as Irish only, 21% as Northern Irish only, 1% see themselves as Irish and Northern Irish only, that's 47% at least who see themselves as some variation of Irish. 52% don't see themselves as any variation of British.

Fr Tod Umptious

gurramok wrote: »

Nope, you took it up wrong.

25% see themselves as Irish only, 21% as Northern Irish only, 1% see themselves as Irish and Northern Irish only, that's 47% at least who see themselves as some variation of Irish. 52% don't see themselves as any variation of British.

You are really confused.

The 21% of NI only means that they have no affinity to the Ireland, no matter how much you wish they had they actually don't.

You simply equate NOT British = Irish

You really do not have a full grasp of it do you ?

I really fell sorry for you and others here who think that a UI is simply a numbers game.

I'm sure it was a huge disappointment to you to see the % of Catholics and then see that only half of them see themselves s Irish only.

Ah well,

gurramok

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

You are really confused.

The 21% of NI only means that they have no affinity to the Ireland, no matter how much you wish they had they actually don't.

You simply equate NOT British = Irish

You really do not have a full grasp of it do you ?

You can't seem to grasp it. Northern Irish is not British, its Irish. You can call yourself Eastern Irish if you like, you are still claiming Irish identity. Same for any variations of British, you claim affinity to British status.

ardmacha

You simply equate NOT British = Irish

You really do not have a full grasp of it do you ?

Surely it is you who do not have a full grasp.

Everyone in Ireland is Irish unless they make a particular point of not being so. In this case almost all who make a point of not being so are British.

karma_

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

You are really confused.

The 21% of NI only means that they have no affinity to the Ireland, no matter how much you wish they had they actually don't.

You simply equate NOT British = Irish

You really do not have a full grasp of it do you ?

I really fell sorry for you and others here who think that a UI is simply a numbers game.

I'm sure it was a huge disappointment to you to see the % of Catholics and then see that only half of them see themselves s Irish only.

Ah well,

You didn't just take the biscuit, you're taking the whole packet.

mcc1

ardmacha wrote: »

Surely it is you who do not have a full grasp.

Everyone in Ireland is Irish unless they make a particular point of not being so. In this case almost all who make a point of not being so are British.

An overwhelming % also made the point off not being Irish....

Fr Tod Umptious

gurramok wrote: »

You can't seem to grasp it. Northern Irish is not British, its Irish. You can call yourself Eastern Irish if you like, you are still claiming Irish identity. Same for any variations of British, you claim affinity to British status.

Oh please help me , please please help me

If you cannot grasp that the Northern Ireland that is refereed to in the census is the political entity that is the part of the island of Ireland that is not administered from Dublin but is instead administer from London, with certain powers devolved to an assembly in Belfast then you are possibly the most politically niave person I have ever encountered.

However I do not think you cannot see the distinction, you are just putting up this 'Eastern ireland' etc stuff cos you cannot take it that only half of the Catolic population of the political entity that is the part of the island of Ireland that is not administered from Dublin but is instead administer from London, with certain powers devolved to an assembly in Belfast do not see themselves as Irish.

gurramok

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Oh please help me , please please help me

If you cannot grasp that the Northern Ireland that is refereed to in the census is the political entity that is the part of the island of Ireland that is not administered from Dublin but is instead administer from London, with certain powers devolved to an assembly in Belfast then you are possibly the most politically niave person I have ever encountered.

However I do not think you cannot see the distinction, you are just putting up this 'Eastern ireland' etc stuff cos you cannot take it that only half of the Catolic population of the political entity that is the part of the island of Ireland that is not administered from Dublin but is instead administer from London, with certain powers devolved to an assembly in Belfast do not see themselves as Irish.

I\we are helping you. That half of the Catholic population you say are Northern Irish are not British. If they wanted to be British they would have said so in the census, instead they used Northern Irish as they claim to be from the island of Ireland and wish to be part of the Irish nation. And a person from Ireland whether its Derry or Kerry is Irish unless they renounce that and proclaim a British\"any foreign nationality" identity, the Northern Irish contingent did not denounce their Irishness.

karma_

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Oh please help me , please please help me

If you cannot grasp that the Northern Ireland that is refereed to in the census is the political entity that is the part of the island of Ireland that is not administered from Dublin but is instead administer from London, with certain powers devolved to an assembly in Belfast then you are possibly the most politically niave person I have ever encountered.

However I do not think you cannot see the distinction, you are just putting up this 'Eastern ireland' etc stuff cos you cannot take it that only half of the Catolic population of the political entity that is the part of the island of Ireland that is not administered from Dublin but is instead administer from London, with certain powers devolved to an assembly in Belfast do not see themselves as Irish.

And you are making an opera out of some pedantic point that 'Northern Irish' does not equate to being 'Irish' whilst completely ignoring the 'Irish' part.

None of these figures are conclusive as to whether people in the North would rather see a UI without an actual border-poll.

Fr Tod Umptious

gurramok wrote: »

I\we are helping you. That half of the Catholic population you say are Northern Irish are not British. If they wanted to be British they would have said so in the census, instead they used Northern Irish as they claim to be from the island of Ireland and wish to be part of the Irish nation. And a person from Ireland whether its Derry or Kerry is Irish unless they renounce that and proclaim a British\"any foreign nationality" identity, the Northern Irish contingent did not denounce their Irishness.

Thank you

That line proves that you are taking a huge leap of faith if you assume that that 21 % who are NI only 'wish to be part of the Irish nation'

If they 'wished to be part of the Irish nation' then why did they select Northern Irish only ?

gurramok

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Thank you

That line proves that you are taking a huge leap of faith if you assume that that 21 % who are NI only 'wish to be part of the Irish nation'

If they 'wished to be part of the Irish nation' then why did they select Northern Irish only ?

Northern Irish is part of the Irish nation, their wish to be part of the Irish nation was granted when they claimed it in the census by ticking that box.

karma_

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Thank you

That line proves that you are taking a huge leap of faith if you assume that that 21 % who are NI only 'wish to be part of the Irish nation'

Accuses poster of making a huge leap.

If they 'wished to be part of the Irish nation' then why did they select Northern Irish only ?

Makes a huge leap.