N.I catholics gains massively on the protestant population

mcc1

karma_ wrote: »

Accuses poster of making a huge leap.



Makes a huge leap.

Northern Ireland already is part of the UK though, if there's people here who call themselves N.Irish and not Irish in any form its safe to assume they are happy with N.Ireland remaining as it is.....

ardmacha

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Oh please help me , please please help me

I'm note sure that we can, you effectively ignore any refutation of your posts.

mcc1 wrote:

If there's people here who call themselves N.Irish and not Irish in any form its safe to assume they are happy with N.Ireland remaining as it is....

It isn't, see post #31

karma_

mcc1 wrote: »

Northern Ireland already is part of the UK though, if there's people here who call themselves N.Irish and not Irish in any form its safe to assume they are happy with N.Ireland remaining as it is.....

That's a leap in of itself. The truth s that this census is absolutely useless for providing an indication of how a border-poll would actually go.

There are of course some very interesting discussions that are raised by the results.

mcc1

gurramok wrote: »

Northern Irish is part of the Irish nation, their wish to be part of the Irish nation was granted when they claimed it in the census by ticking that box.

Eh.. You do understand that Northern Ireland is a separate country? Those who call themselves Northern Irish recogonise this and clearly want to distance/differentiate themselves away from the Republic.......

karma_

mcc1 wrote: »

Eh.. You do understand that Northern Ireland is a separate country? Those who call themselves Northern Irish recogonise this and clearly want to distance/differentiate themselves away from the Republic.......

This is a completely fallacious argument that has essentially been plucked out of thin air.

ardmacha

Eh.. You do understand that Northern Ireland is a separate country? Those who call themselves Northern Irish recogonise this and clearly want to distance/differentiate themselves away from the Republic.......

The Republic and NI are two parts of the same country. People wanted to associate themselves with the part of the country they lived in. Shock Horror!!

mcc1

ardmacha wrote: »

The Republic and NI are two parts of the same country. People wanted to associate themselves with the part of the country they lived in. Shock Horror!!

2 parts of the same Island you means.

Madam

Maybe they see themselves as being Northen Irish to differentiate from being British?

Fr Tod Umptious

mcc1 wrote: »

Eh.. You do understand that Northern Ireland is a separate country? Those who call themselves Northern Irish recogonise this and clearly want to distance/differentiate themselves away from the Republic.......

That's the point that they are ignoring because the census results show that only 26% of all folks see themselves as 'Irish' and not the 48% that they expected.

They wish to lump the 21% NI Only with the 1% NI and Irish to try to convince themselves that 47% of the total population, and almost 100% of the Catholic population have a affinity to the rest of the island of Ireland.

Which is clearly not the case

mcc1

Madam wrote: »

Maybe they see themselves as being Northen Irish to differentiate from being British?

In other words they see themselves as neither Irish or British but are happy to accept N.Ireland as it is, ie part of the UK.

Fr Tod Umptious

Madam wrote: »

Maybe they see themselves as being Northen Irish to differentiate from being British?

I think that's the case in some instances, but it does not mean that they themselves as having an affinity to the rest of the island of Ireland, as some here seem to think.

Madam

mcc1 wrote: »

In other words they see themselves as neither Irish or British but are happy to accept N.Ireland as it is.

Perhaps:) Maybe with a few 'tweaks' here and there.

gurramok

mcc1 wrote: »

In other words they see themselves as neither Irish or British but are happy to accept N.Ireland as it is, ie part of the UK.

If they were happy to be part of the UK, they would have ticked the British something box but they did not. This is their expression of self determination for their Irishness, whether that Irishness is Eastern or Northern.

sanbrafyffe

correct,,,,,well great to see the british government apologiseing today to the finuncane family,,,cammeron has done alot of apologiseing

well atleast the british government/statistics department did get something right but saying the catholics would outake the protestant population in the decade between 2010-2020(2014 they had quessed)
looks like they are bang on there
for the british government ev everybody
hip hip,,,,,,
hip hip,,,,,,
hip hip,,horay:D

gurramok wrote: »

If they were happy to be part of the UK, they would have ticked the British something box but they did not. This is their expression of self determination for their Irishness, whether that Irishness is Eastern or Northern.

Chips Lovell

Any assertion that "47 per cent of the population don't regard themselves as British" could be countered with equal validity by saying "61 per cent of the population don't regard themselves as Irish".

Claiming those who identify themselves as Northern Irish for one side or the other is a risky move. Because there's a good probability that many of those who've identified themselves as such have done so because they don't want to be pigeon-holed into one or the other. And just what the political aspirations of these people are is very much open to question.

gurramok

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Any assertion that "47 per cent of the population don't regard themselves as British" could be countered with equal validity by saying "61 per cent of the population don't regard themselves as Irish".

Claiming those who identify themselves as Northern Irish for one side or the other is a risky move. Because there's a good probability that many of those who've identified themselves as such have done so because they don't want to be pigeon-holed into one or the other. And just what the political aspirations of these people are is very much open to question.

Your figures are wrong! 52% did not identify as British anything, 47% as Irish something and of course 53% did not identify as Irish anything. 5% of neither hold the balance.

On the Northern Irish, most of them who declared this seem to be in council areas with SF & SDLP voting patterns where the British contingent is accounted for. Have a look yourself. Also SF & SDLP want a United Ireland.

I am pie

For me unity in some form is inevitable via referendum, the only possible hitch being sinn fein going for 2016 as a form of grandstanding...100 years and all that. That for me might come to early, the loyalist reaction would be horrendous. That isn't a reason to postpone but I do believe that now and in a few years time people would vote for the status quo rather than voting for the risk associated with change. A solid economic basis still does not exist for reunification and this might sway some wealthy and upper middle class soft nationalist votes. The private sector must grow and the british subvention of the public sector should be minimised in as painless a way as possible. The balancing act in all of this is allocating sufficient resource to police the dinosuars / lunatic fringe on both sides. The recovery of the Irish economy might well be a strong driver for unification.

Chips Lovell

gurramok wrote: »

Your figures are wrong! 52% did not identify as British anything, 47% as Irish something and of course 53% did not identify as Irish anything. 5% of neither hold the balance.

It was 40 per cent who saw themselves as "solely British", 26 per cent who regarded themselves as "solely Irish" and 21 per cent who said "solely Northern Irish", no?

Chuck Stone

Of those questioned, 40% said they were British only, with the remaining 8% choosing British along with another one of the identities.

40 + 8 = 48.

48% of those questioned were Protestant or of Protestant heritage.

25% Irish only 20% NIrish only.

25 + 20 = 45.

45% of those questioned were Catholic or of Catholic heritage.

I'd say it's safe to assume that the vast majority of those who chose 'NIrish only' would very much consider themselves Irish with the Northern part merely acknowledging either geography or political reality or some combination of the two.

pablomakaveli

Wow people are really grasping at straws here. I know from personal experience that a person can describe themselves as Northern Irish and be from a Unionist background and be completely against a UI.

Just because the word Irish is in Northern Irish doesnt mean they see themselves as sort of Irish. Its because they are from Northern Ireland and identify with where they come from. A lot like a person from Scotland describing themselves as Scottish over British or a person from Wales saying they're Welsh instead of British.

It doesnt say they dont want to be out of the UK, just merely they identify with the region they come from.

Chips Lovell

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I'd say it's safe to assume that the vast majority of those who chose 'NIrish only' would very much consider themselves Irish with the Northern part merely acknowledging either geography or political reality or some combination of the two.

That's precisely the kind of assumption that I think is dangerous to make.

pablomakaveli

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Of those questioned, 40% said they were British only, with the remaining 8% choosing British along with another one of the identities.

40 + 8 = 48.

48% of those questioned were Protestant or of Protestant heritage.

25% Irish only 20% NIrish only.

25 + 20 = 45.

45% of those questioned were Catholic or of Catholic heritage.

I'd say it's safe to assume that the vast majority of those who chose 'NIrish only' would very much consider themselves Irish with the Northern part merely acknowledging either geography or political reality or some combination of the two.

For the hundreth time religion does not equate to national or political affiliation.

You can twist the numbers all you want but it wont conform to reality.

junder

I am a Protestant and a unionist and I am northern Irish, I am not Irish and I do not accept the Irish identity as mine period, end of story and yet by declaring myself as northern Irish it some how translates as being in support of a united ireland. And they say unionists live in la la land. I think these census figures are quite devastating for republicans because dispite years of denigrating the northern Irish identy, dispite pushing a faux Irish identity as the true idenity of 'Ireland' only 26% identified themselves as Irish. So now they try and claim the northern Irish, since Irish is a option why didn't they just tick that box, not as if they have anything to fear, nobody forced thier choice

Chuck Stone

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

That's precisely the kind of assumption that I think is dangerous to make.

Dangerous?

It adds up.

40 + 8 = 48% Protestant/heritage.

25 + 20 = 45% Catholic/heritage.

I'm thinking of my large extended family (very large) with my Father's side being more Nationalist/SF types and my Mother's side being nationalist/SDLP moderates.

I'm confident 100% of them would very much consider themselves Irish first with 'Northern' being a less significant detail.

GSF

They should have had a "Norn Iron" option to clarify things.

Chips Lovell

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Dangerous?

It adds up.

It only adds up if religious affiliation/heritage automatically translates into political affiliation and that saying you're "Northern Irish" automatically means you have a nationalist affiliation. The latter is an even bigger assumption to make than the former.

Chuck Stone

pablomakaveli wrote: »

For the hundreth time religion does not equate to national or political affiliation.

Um.. does not automatically equate but very much does have a bearing. Denying that religion plays a part in identity up north would be quite idiotic.

Also, you're looking for an argument that's not there. People in the 6 counties could very much consider themselves Irish first and foremost but not be presently in favour of a UI because they would not think it was in their economic interests.

sanbrafyffe

yes your are right,,,everyone is entitled to their own choice nowadays not like when ireland was partioned and on up to the early 70's

im not interested in what republicans think to be honest and like many other irish people north and south

but the thing is these new northern irish 26%,,,25 which are catholic and 1% protestant

which party do these 25% follow,,,gaurantee its not the dup or uup

so it will follow the nationalist parties interests

junder wrote: »

I am a Protestant and a unionist and I am northern Irish, I am not Irish and I do not accept the Irish identity as mine period, end of story and yet by declaring myself as northern Irish it some how translates as being in support of a united ireland. And they say unionists live in la la land. I think these census figures are quite devastating for republicans because dispite years of denigrating the northern Irish identy, dispite pushing a faux Irish identity as the true idenity of 'Ireland' only 26% identified themselves as Irish. So now they try and claim the northern Irish, since Irish is a option why didn't they just tick that box, not as if they have anything to fear, nobody forced thier choice

Chuck Stone

junder wrote: »

I am a Protestant and a unionist and I am northern Irish, I am not Irish and I do not accept the Irish identity as mine period, end of story and yet by declaring myself as northern Irish it some how translates as being in support of a united ireland.

You totally reject any Irishness and yet you declare yourself Northern Irish? You've changed your tune a bit.

junder wrote: »

Irish is not my identity, it's yours. My identity is British.

Confusing.

junder

sanbrafyffe wrote: »

yes your are right,,,everyone is entitled to their own choice nowadays not like when ireland was partioned and on up to the early 70's

im not interested in what republicans think to be honest and like many other irish people north and south

but the thing is these new northern irish 26%,,,25 which are catholic and 1% protestant

which party do these 25% follow,,,gaurantee its not the dup or uup


so it will follow the nationalist parties interests

How did you work those figures out

gurramok

junder wrote: »

How did you work those figures out

Its quite amazing you used to be British and now Northern Irish, just your late reply of declaration to the discussion is very very suspect that it lacks sincerity.

Just one month ago you were British. Irish was a dirty word for you.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81580345&postcount=250

junder wrote:

Irish is not my identity, it's yours. My identity is British.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=81570762

junder wrote:

I don't pretend to live in the uk, I live in the uk, I don't pretend to be British, I am British. I am not Irish, I never was nor will I ever be Irish

gurramok

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

That's precisely the kind of assumption that I think is dangerous to make.

Its is a big co-incidence of their Community Background, that you have to agree. And it just happens that SF&SDLP support is just under 45%, the Unionist side have an older profile of voters of voting age.

murphaph

Crooked Jack wrote: »

And is that your national identity? Bearing in mind that "northern" Ireland is not a nation. Perhaps your national identity is British, despite the fact that if you're from "northern" Ireland you are clearly not from Britain.
How is it not daft?

But please, tell me about this "northern" Irish identity and how it is different from any other regional Irish identity because any time anyone has ever tried to explain it to me all they have done is describe Unionism/loyalism or give a vague outline of the habits (and weirdly accents, accents seem very important to them) of a certain section of people living in an area around north down/belfast/bits of antrim and parts of east Derry.

The notion of a "northern" Irish national identity as distinct from an irish one is laughable and kind of pathetic.

Would you insist to a Basque that his national identity was not Basque but rather Spanish, because, as you say, Basque is not a nation? Why can't you just let people decide their own damned identity instead of trying to dictate one for them?

FionnK86

If I was living there I wouldn't want a united Ireland, that whole patriotism stuff is nonsense...people want food on the table and don't care about the flag above their heads any more. THIS IS THE 21ST CENTURY!!! They get a better deal from England than Ireland, with education and health...

Iwasfrozen

Crooked Jack wrote: »

I know I dont, which is why I use the definition of the word "nation," that determines what is and isnt a nation and it in no way applies to the six counties.

There are many definitions of the word nation. Wikipedia says it is "a community of people who share a common language, culture, ethnicity, descent, or history." We don't share a common culture, ethnicity, descent or history with the Ulster Scots. They are not our people they form their own nation in the north east corner of this island.

gurramok wrote: »

NI ain't a nation. Its two peoples belonging to two different nations, you know that.

I disagree. Northern Ireland a nation for Ulster Scots and for Gods sake let's keep them there. With a thirty foot guarded wall if needs be.

I am pie

gurramok wrote: »

Its quite amazing you used to be British and now Northern Irish, just your late reply of declaration to the discussion is very very suspect that it lacks sincerity.

Just one month ago you were British. Irish was a dirty word for you.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81580345&postcount=250

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=81570762

No idea about this chap, but northern irish can be read as Scottish or Welsh in this context. Nations within the United Kingdom of gb&ni. Semantics really, the simple desire is to be recognised as a distinct entity with the UK (an abbreviation of the formal term, but again we're into semantics)...those who profess to be northern irish but are 'soft' on the british aspect are more proud of being part of the separate entity known as Northern Ireland, not altogether unhappy with the status quo and are suspicious of change on the scale of a united ireland. To be frank, the nationalist parties in the north are doing little to change upper and middle class catholics and any group of prods that this change might be in their favour. It would be very hard to describe sf as inclusive or welcoming and the sdlp are pretty much irrelevant at this stage.

charlemont

The North may well remain in the Union for a few decades to come but it will be an Irish statlet, The days of it being Orange controlled are coming to an end, If the Unionist's don't get with the times they will find themselves frozen out as the Nationalist parties will be the ones running the province.

The British government has no problem with Wales being culturally Welsh or Scotland being Scottish so lets see what the Unionists do when the North becomes more culturally Irish while still a part of the Union.

gurramok

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I disagree. Northern Ireland a nation for Ulster Scots and for Gods sake let's keep them there. With a thirty foot guarded wall if needs be.

Yes, they have their own belonging to British whatever. The Irish people in NI are part the Irish nation. Thats those 2 nations I was talking about.

I am pie wrote: »

No idea about this chap, but northern irish can be read as Scottish or Welsh in this context. Nations within the United Kingdom of gb&ni. Semantics really, the simple desire is to be recognised as a distinct entity with the UK (an abbreviation of the formal term, but again we're into semantics)...those who profess to be northern irish but are 'soft' on the british aspect are more proud of being part of the separate entity known as Northern Ireland, not altogether unhappy with the status quo and are suspicious of change on the scale of a united ireland. To be frank, the nationalist parties in the north are doing little to change upper and middle class catholics and any group of prods that this change might be in their favour. It would be very hard to describe sf as inclusive or welcoming and the sdlp are pretty much irrelevant at this stage.

All this sidestepping is quite bizarre. SF and SDLP want a UI, no doubting that.

There have been posters based in NI from the Nationalist persuasion who live in NI and posted why they ticked the Northern Irish box, same for the AH thread(Loyalist mobs attacking Alliance Party offices and homes) which has touched on the topic, yet those that oppose an United Ireland clearly ignore their point of view. Those posters who explained the Northern Irish identity are the very people who actually filled out the census yet they are dismissed as "pro-UK Nationalists" when in fact they are the exact opposite, its hilarious stuff.

junder

gurramok wrote: »

Its quite amazing you used to be British and now Northern Irish, just your late reply of declaration to the discussion is very very suspect that it lacks sincerity.

Just one month ago you were British. Irish was a dirty word for you.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81580345&postcount=250

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=81570762

The only identity I have ever denied being is irish

Iwasfrozen

gurramok wrote: »

Yes, they have their own belonging to British whatever. The Irish people in NI are part the Irish nation. Thats those 2 nations I was talking about.

I would agree with that. So what's it going to be, Derry, Fermanagh, Armagh and Tyrone join the Republic or do we just leave things as they are and stop trying to define countries based on ethnicity?

sanbrafyffe

well why not,,they have substancial majorities,,leaveing the british with 2,,,

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I would agree with that. So what's it going to be, Derry, Fermanagh, Armagh and Tyrone join the Republic or do we just leave things as they are and stop trying to define countries based on ethnicity?

Iwasfrozen

sanbrafyffe wrote: »

well why not,,they have substancial majorities,,leaveing the british with 2,,,

That's a nationalists worse nightmare. It puts the prospect of a United Ireland back at least a century.

sanbrafyffe

how would it,,actually this is the way michael collins wanted to do it originally,,,,take it by the majority,,fair and square,,,wed have 4 now and the other 2 would not be able to sustain on their own they would vote to jump onboard and not only that,,it would be easier for the uk government to get rid of 2 rather than 6

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That's a nationalists worse nightmare. It puts the prospect of a United Ireland back at least a century.

mcc1

gurramok wrote: »

Yes, they have their own belonging to British
All this sidestepping is quite bizarre. SF and SDLP want a UI, no doubting that.

Just because people vote for SDLP/Sinn Fein dosent mean they want a United Ireland. Just look at Scotland and the SNP who have a majority yet only a minority of those who voted for them want to break away from the UK, they purely voted for them because they trust them more with local matters.

Catholics who support the UK are still very wary of voting for Unionist parties and that won't change in a hurry. But Catholics calling themselves Northern Irish instead of Irish is a huge step and its something Unionists should look at in their favour and move towards themselves as its something Sinn Fein would never do.

Anybody that I have ever heard call themselves Northern Irish are in favour of the UK, it started out years ago as a more moderate Unionist thing. Best thing about it is both sides can share and identify with it without trouble. Next step is a new Northern Ireland flag.

As days go by Northern Ireland especially nationalists are gradually moving away from this whole United Ireland pipe dream and realising being part of the UK is far batter for them.

Its no surprise that 25% of people in N.Ireland call themselves Irish and that recent opinion polls from N.Ireland put support for a United Ireland at an average around the mid 20 twenties. It all adds up.

sanbrafyffe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=JlhVAoi7Upw

lol take alook please

Madam

junder wrote: »

I am a Protestant and a unionist and I am northern Irish, I am not Irish and I do not accept the Irish identity as mine period, end of story and yet by declaring myself as northern Irish it some how translates as being in support of a united ireland. And they say unionists live in la la land. I think these census figures are quite devastating for republicans because dispite years of denigrating the northern Irish identy, dispite pushing a faux Irish identity as the true idenity of 'Ireland' only 26% identified themselves as Irish. So now they try and claim the northern Irish, since Irish is a option why didn't they just tick that box, not as if they have anything to fear, nobody forced thier choice

Yet to the rest of the world you are indeed Irish.

robroy1234

The British government would react far more violently and aggressively towards any suggestion of a referendum in Northern Ireland, especially when it knows that just like in Scotland, the vote would more likely be in favour of a break from England. Northern Ireland infrastructure is mostly paid for by the Irish tax payer, certain services such as tourism is funded by Bord Failte, and foreign businesses and companies see Northern Ireland as part of Ireland and separate as well as distinct from Britain, and the Euro is an acceptable currency throughout the province. There would hardly be any noticeable difference at all if Ireland became an united country.

Iwasfrozen

sanbrafyffe wrote: »

how would it,,actually this is the way michael collins wanted to do it originally,,,,take it by the majority,,fair and square,,,wed have 4 now and the other 2 would not be able to sustain on their own they would vote to jump onboard and not only that,,it would be easier for the uk government to get rid of 2 rather than 6

Because two counties, incidentally the two most urban counties are much more affordable for the UK to sustain. Also there's no chance of there being a nationalist majority in either Down or Antrim any time soon.

murphaph

Madam wrote: »

Yet to the rest of the world you are indeed Irish.

Many people around the world think Ireland is still a part of the UK. You really think the whole world cares as much as you do about a small island off another small island off a small continent?

robroy1234

Iwasfrozen - the British are experts at Gerrymandering and therefore are able to make out that a mere minority into a heaving majority. Just consider that places such a Derry City they were able to have Loyalists control the city council for years despite being outnumbered in the city 10 to 1.