N.I catholics gains massively on the protestant population

ardmacha

The reality is that SF are as much an obstacle to Irish unity as an agent for it and the DUP likewise a danger to the UK link.

SF insist on promoting cult adherence stuff about validating every act of the the IRA campaign, while taking little interest in the practical matters that need to be attended to. The best thing they could so to advance the date of Irish unity was to bring NI public finances into broad balance, which requires cutting expenditure and promoting enterprise. SF don't even have these policies in the Republic, but there is not a scintilla of evidence that they have any realisation of the need to do this in the North.

Whatever about the previous post, there isn't much happening for a decade and then an Alex Salmond type figure is needed on the Nationalist side to propose a way forward.

Fooker

ardmacha wrote: »

The reality is that SF are as much an obstacle to Irish unity as an agent for it and the DUP likewise a danger to the UK link.

SF insist on promoting cult adherence stuff about validating every act of the the IRA campaign, while taking little interest in the practical matters that need to be attended to. The best thing they could so to advance the date of Irish unity was to bring NI public finances into broad balance, which requires cutting expenditure and promoting enterprise. SF don't even have these policies in the Republic, but there is not a scintilla of evidence that they have any realisation of the need to do this in the North.

Whatever about the previous post, there isn't much happening for a decade and then an Alex Salmond type figure is needed on the Nationalist side to propose a way forward.

I think I would agree.

Encouraging private enterprise is a must certainly, however since Northern Ireland itself is not footing the bill, I wouldn't be too worried about expenditure, but I would think it could be used to promote private enterprises.

I think a united Ireland is somewhat dismissed as a possibility. But there is no politician either side of the border who can articulate a good argument. The emergence of a Salmond figure would be a shot in the arm to the movement. Scotland has experienced hundreds of years of "assimilation" and yet independence looks likely not now, but in the future. It wasn't even on the agenda until recently.

R.W Callaghan

As someone from Donegal the northern most county in Ireland does that make me more northern Irish than anyone else.:)

ardmacha

however since Northern Ireland itself is not footing the bill, I wouldn't be too worried about expenditure, but I would think it could be used to promote private enterprises.

This is the point surely. Constitutional change, be it Scottish style max devolution or a United Ireland requires NI to pay for itself. As long as people see a huge gap between revenue and expenditure than they can dismiss any proposal for change as infeasible.

fryup

is it true that catholics in the north have large families on purpose so as to out number the protestants??

woodoo

fryup wrote: »

is it true that catholics in the north have large families on purpose so as to out number the protestants??

No, northern Catholics have no more or less children than southern Catholics.

robroy1234

Loyalist futile attempts at holding on to any political power is like trying carry water in a brown paper bag...so resort to the usual violence...

maccored

i dont get this ... the actual idea that catholics = republicans and protestants = loyalists is pretty flawed considering many republicans are atheist and theres many protestants who would view themselves as republicans (I cant prove that as its from talking to people of that religion who view themselves that way)

gallag

fryup wrote: »

is it true that catholics in the north have large families on purpose so as to out number the protestants??

Yep, "breeding them out" is often referred to by the more hard core republicans around here, it's quite sad that children could be brought into the world to vote, though it does explane why west Belfast is , as Sinn Fein say "lawless" kids out at night stealing cars, hijacking etc.

Probably a few of the "every sperm is sacred" crowd aswell, if I had to pick a religion this alone would put me off being a Catholic lol , a baby every ride would be intense.

To be fair there are equally bad parents on the protestant/loyalists side, the only saving grace being that they are not encouraged to keep spitting them out for religious/voting strategy reasons.

Also, if someone is willing to have 6-7 kids they want it more lol, I wouldn't have that many kids for my own private island.

woodoo

gallag wrote: »

Probably a few of the "every sperm is sacred" crowd aswell, if I had to pick a religion this alone would put me off being a Catholic lol , a baby every ride would be intense.

That attitude is long gone. There isn't many Catholics these days that don't use contraception.

gallag

Crooked Jack wrote: »

I cant decide if its funny or sad that this type of bigoted ignorance still exists. im not even offended, i just pity you

You could help educate me by pointing out where I am wrong?

Crooked Jack

gallag wrote: »

You could help educate me by pointing out where I am wrong?

no problem, see where you started off with "Yep" and finished with "island."
Everything in between and including those words.

A reminder that this is the politics forum and standards apply to posting
thanks

ardmacha

To be fair there are equally bad parents on the protestant/loyalists side,

I think we have seen that this week.

Also, if someone is willing to have 6-7 kids they want it more lol, I wouldn't have that many kids for my own private island.

This is based on a mistaken premise. Catholic families are only marginally larger than Protestant ones, if at all. If they are larger it may reflect more Catholics living in rural areas with bigger houses as much as any major difference in attitudes to children.

The difference in family size was in the 1970s. As Catholics have made up the majority of the school going population since the 1980s, there are now more Catholics in the age range for having families, a situation that will continue in the future. So although the family size is only marginally different, if at all, a Catholic majority is on the way nonetheless.

robroy1234

The hardest job in Belfast at the moment is not the police or the emergency services, but that Bricklayer - every time he starts laying the bricks the loyalist mob keeps taking them and throwing them away....

He will never get that garden feature that he promised will be done in a week finished at this rate....

rightwingdub

A substantial minority of middle class catholics would vote against a United Ireland, a UI unfortunately is not going to happen for at least the next 30 years thanks to Fianna Fail bankrupting the 26 county state.

robroy1234

Ah sure Rightwingdub - the only real reason to allow the loyalists to be part of our great country is that they don't have a sense of humour.

I mean - and unfortunately I have relatives that kick with the other foot, up there in Belfast, and at their local they serve Guinness, Jamesons, Paddys, and Baileys - now they refuse to have these drinks to come to them from the Republic - so these drinks are sent from Dublin to Liverpool, taken up to Stranraer onto the ferry to Larne and then into Belfast...the burden of cost on these yokels. I can only surmise that not only are they not the sharpest tools in the box, but not laughing at such stupidity indicates a lack of humour.

gallag

robroy1234 wrote: »

Ah sure Rightwingdub - the only real reason to allow the loyalists to be part of our great country is that they don't have a sense of humour.

I mean - and unfortunately I have relatives that kick with the other foot, up there in Belfast, and at their local they serve Guinness, Jamesons, Paddys, and Baileys - now they refuse to have these drinks to come to them from the Republic - so these drinks are sent from Dublin to Liverpool, taken up to Stranraer onto the ferry to Larne and then into Belfast...the burden of cost on these yokels. I can only surmise that not only are they not the sharpest tools in the box, but not laughing at such stupidity indicates a lack of humour.

Absalute nonsense, balieys is made in Belfast for example.

robroy1234

And, in other parts of Ireland - the crux of the story here is that these people have an extreme narrow view of things. Don't get caught up with the petty, insignificant stuff here Gallag.,

Lelantos

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-21345997
Interesting reading.

Fromthetrees

Interesting alright,not surprising though.

It's mainly about money now anyway, join a German funded economic basketcase run by parish pump politicians vrs. London grants amounting to billions with the status quo.

It's a no brainer as things stand today. The Catholic middle class is increasing quite quickly all the while the Protestant underclass is growing so why would there be an appetite for change with this.

If southern Ireland funds Belfast to the same tune as London and it makes more sense to harmonise tax and all that jazz than there could be a United Ireland in 20 years time. Any border poll will be pointless before then.

Money will decide the future of the north.

.jacksparrow.

Lelantos wrote: »

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-21345997
Interesting reading.

BBC,I had seen enough once I read they conducted the poll.

Happyman42

Fromthetrees wrote: »

Money will decide the future of the north.

Since the GFA the British are changing the game in NI, they are making it clear to the Unionists that they will no longer support them, they are I believe in the early days of a withdrawal. They have most certainly withdrawn in any emotional or sense of cultural duty way. It's clear that they ultimately want to dis-engage.
What will come next is the making the 'alternative attractive' stage. We are not ready for that yet, it will require economic stabilisation here, stabilisation across the world's economies actually...which will come.
Then you will see more overt pronouncements from the British, incentives and encouragements from America and the courting of the middle ground.
Our prosperity during the Celtic Tiger attracted many a beady eye up North. As you say, money will be a big factor. If the British, in the nicest possible way (they are past masters at this) say that they will no longer underwrite the North, then the real debate begins. They will make it so that there is only one real credible option left,(that's how the Brits roll historically) culturally and economically.

Fr Tod Umptious

Fromthetrees wrote: »

Interesting alright,not surprising though.

It's mainly about money now anyway, join a German funded economic basketcase run by parish pump politicians vrs. London grants amounting to billions with the status quo.

It's a no brainer as things stand today. The Catholic middle class is increasing quite quickly all the while the Protestant underclass is growing so why would there be an appetite for change with this.

If southern Ireland funds Belfast to the same tune as London and it makes more sense to harmonise tax and all that jazz than there could be a United Ireland in 20 years time. Any border poll will be pointless before then.

Money will decide the future of the north.

It show that just because a person is defines as a Catholic it does not mean that they want an united Ireland

And the whole 'Northern Irish' identity thing is interested.
It explodes the myth from some folks on this thread that just beacuse you did not define yourself as 'British only' in the census it meant that you supported a united Ireland.

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

BBC,I had seen enough once I read they conducted the poll.

well jack, maybe it's Ipsos Mori the people who did the polling that you need to take it up with

What is your problem with them ?

SharpshooterTom

23% of Sinn Fein voters voting to stay in the union!

What interests me about the poll is flag issue, 35% support 365 days a year, 44% support 18 days a year, 10% said never to fly it. Meaning we have a majority of people who support 18 days or less. I hope the loyalist knuckledraggers can understand that now.

awec

This post has been deleted.

Crooked Jack

awec wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-21345997

To summarise:

65% to 17% majority for staying within the UK.

90% of Protestants vote for staying in the UK

38% of Catholics vote for staying in the UK

35% of Catholics vote for a United Ireland

5% of Protestants said they didn't know how they'd vote / they didn't care.

23% of Sinn Fein voters vote for backing the current status quo

56% of SDLP voters vote for staying in the UK


Very interesting indeed.

Interesting yes, but that's all. This was a poll of just 1000 people using very deliberate language.
It still doesn't justify not holding a proper debate on reunification and independence and a proper vote.

gizmo555

awec wrote: »

Very interesting indeed.

Would be even more interesting to see a county-by-county breakdown.

After all, as unionists & loyalists have often to be reminded, Northern Ireland and Ulster aren't the same thing. The present border was carefully chosen as the largest area in which unionism could confidently be expected to hold the majority into the long term. The Boundary Commission of 1925, which might have adjusted the border, was a complete fiasco.

What way would these figures break down in, say, Derry or west of the Bann generally?

Chips Lovell

Pretty much every opinion poll uses a sample size of 1,000. Opinion polls in Ireland, which has a higher population, usually go for 1,000.

awec

This post has been deleted.

Fr Tod Umptious

Ok so we have the usualy rubbish for the united Ireland advocates here

If you don't like the outcome of the survey, attack the survey itself.

It's halarious

gurramok

awec wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-21345997

23% of Sinn Fein voters vote for backing the current status quo

That bit is quite humourous. Republicans would vote against a UI, MORI taking the mick are they? The poll loses credibility right there, its like the DUP voters voting for a UI!!

And why does the BBC keep using religion to ask people their allegiances? Whats wrong with using Nationalist, Unionist, others to get their views?

awec

This post has been deleted.

Fr Tod Umptious

gurramok wrote: »

That bit is quite humourous. Republicans would vote against a UI, MORI taking the mick are they? The poll loses credibility right there, its like the DUP voters voting for a UI!!

And why does the BBC keep using religion to ask people their allegiances? Whats wrong with using Nationalist, Unionist, others to get their views?

Again he have someone who does not like the outcome attacking the messenger

One stat in the poll is that 72% of people identifying as 'Northern Irish' would vote for NI to stay in the union'

Where is the 'religion' in that ?

No mention of religion in these quotes either

those who identified themselves as Sinn Fein voters - 23% - told the pollsters they would back the status quo in a border poll.

More than half of SDLP supporters - 56% - also said they would opt to stay in the UK if a poll was held tomorrow.

Crooked Jack

awec wrote: »

How would you sell a UI to those currently who would vote against it?

Well that's the problem. I'm one person. No one person has all the answers. My reasons for being in favour of reunification and independence only work for me. Someone with different concerns may not be interested in the same aspects of independence as me or may have different worries about it or questions I cant answer.

That's why I think there should be a public debate and investigation on it and really find out what would and wouldn't work and what the benefits or pitfalls would be, cover all bases and then have people make their decision.

awec

This post has been deleted.

gurramok

awec wrote: »

You're instantly dismissive of this because it proves that the situation is not as black and white as you want it to be. It lacks credibility to you because it goes against what republicans would want us to believe.

23% of people who voted Sinn Fein said they would vote to maintain the status quo. Not everyone in the north votes for a party based on the constitutional question, so the result isn't that surprising at all.

They ask religion because we always hear this "there are almost as many catholics now as protestants, a UI isn't far off".

Most do, its still tribal voting up there. The geographic spread of the questioned is not released.

I wonder what the result would be if they polled 1000 people in South Armagh for example.

You agree that 38% of Nationalists living in South Armagh would vote for staying in the UK?

Crooked Jack

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Ok so we have the usualy rubbish for the united Ireland advocates here

If you don't like the outcome of the survey, attack the survey itself.

It's halarious

Yes, the usualy rubbish is indeed halarious.

I dont think anybody is attacking the survey, just debunking the notion that because a BBC poll of 1000 people said something that we should just consider the constitutional issue settled.
Because of a lack of proper debate and investigation people are largely voting blind on this.
What has anybody to fear from a thorough debate and a full vote

bilston

gurramok wrote: »

Most do, its still tribal voting up there. The geographic spread of the questioned is not released.

I wonder what the result would be if they polled 1000 people in South Armagh for example.

You agree that 38% of Nationalists living in South Armagh would vote for staying in the UK?

Obviously not, are you suggesting the border be re-drawn?

Fr Tod Umptious

gurramok wrote: »

Most do, its still tribal voting up there. The geographic spread of the questioned is not released.

I wonder what the result would be if they polled 1000 people in South Armagh for example.

You agree that 38% of Nationalists living in South Armagh would vote for staying in the UK?

Again with any NI debate here people start splitting hairs

NI is one single entity, it does not matter what individual counties, town, streets think.

Should the EU fiscal treaty be constitutional in Donegal because they voted against it in a referendum

gurramok

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Again he have someone who does not like the outcome attacking the messenger

One stat in the poll is that 72% of people identifying as 'Northern Irish' would vote for NI to stay in the union'

Where is the 'religion' in that ?

No mention of religion in these quotes either

The article is riddled with references to the religion of the respondents(assuming none of those questioned were lying about their identity).

You lost your credibility by saying the below, you ain't neutral in the debate.

"Ok so we have the usualy rubbish for the united Ireland advocates here "

Fr Tod Umptious

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Yes, the usualy rubbish is indeed halarious.

I dont think anybody is attacking the survey, just debunking the notion that because a BBC poll of 1000 people said something that we should just consider the constitutional issue settled.
Because of a lack of proper debate and investigation people are largely voting blind on this.
What has anybody to fear from a thorough debate and a full vote

I'd love if the DUP called SFs bluff on this one as Arline Foster suggested a few weeks back.

bilston

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Yes, the usualy rubbish is indeed halarious.

I dont think anybody is attacking the survey, just debunking the notion that because a BBC poll of 1000 people said something that we should just consider the constitutional issue settled.
Because of a lack of proper debate and investigation people are largely voting blind on this.
What has anybody to fear from a thorough debate and a full vote

It does back up other polls though, although I haven't seen the figure for support of a United Ireland to be as low as that before.

Any border poll would likely be closer than that but I don't see there being anything like the swing required for a United Ireland to happen. Ireland will be partitioned for the forseeable future as far as I'm concerned but perhaps a process is underway that means if the time comes for unification then things will be a lot simpler to negotiate at the time.

But really I'm 32 and if I'm lucky enough to live a long and healthy life I don't expect to see a United Ireland.

gurramok

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Again with any NI debate here people start splitting hairs

NI is one single entity, it does not matter what individual counties, town, streets think.

Should the EU fiscal treaty be constitutional in Donegal because they voted against it in a referendum

Here you expose your lack of education on the subject.

NI is not a single entity constitutional question.

NI is divided and intertwined with each area, townland and village majorly identifying with either mostly Nationalist or Unionist. They each have their own customs and traditions identifying with different flags for example

Donegal does not have any divisions on the NI constitutional question.

Fr Tod Umptious

gurramok wrote: »

The article is riddled with references to the religion of the respondents(assuming none of those questioned were lying about their identity).

You lost your credibility by saying the below, you ain't neutral in the debate.

"Ok so we have the usualy rubbish for the united Ireland advocates here "

How did I loose my credibility ?

I do not want to see a united Ireland.

It's you who is grasping at straws, just because the survey is totally against what you hoped would be the case

awec

This post has been deleted.

Fr Tod Umptious

gurramok wrote: »

Here you expose your lack of education on the subject.

NI is not a single entity constitutional question.

NI is divided and intertwined with each area, townland and village majorly identifying with either mostly Nationalist or Unionist. They each have their own customs and traditions identifying with different flags for example

Donegal does not have any divisions on the NI constitutional question.

But from the point if a referendum on the border it's a single entity.

It does not matter if a town , county or district votes one way the the majority vote the other way

For someone to think otherwise as it seems you are doing is just showing your lack of education on politics in general.

Crooked Jack

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I'd love if the DUP called SFs bluff on this one as Arline Foster suggested a few weeks back.

So would I. Sadly it wouldnt mean a damn thing because even being allowed to hold a vote on the single biggest issue in the north is taken out of the hands of Irish people and will be decided by some witless english tory who has not a single Irish vote to her name. Democracy, british style.

Fr Tod Umptious

Crooked Jack wrote: »

So would I

good for you

It would give you that debate you are looking for but you would not be happy with the results.

gurramok

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

How did I loose my credibility ?

I do not want to see a united Ireland.

It's you who is grasping at straws, just because the survey is totally against what you hoped would be the case

Why are you taking it as gospel quoting the poll then in your anti-UI stance?

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But from the point if a referendum on the border it's a single entity.

It does not matter if a town , county or district votes one way the the majority vote the other way

For someone to think otherwise as it seems you are doing is just showing your lack of education on politics in general.

The poll was of a 1000 people with unknown geographic location and relying on their truthful identity when questioned. Not reliable.