Quinn: Schools spend too much time on religion and Irish

mackerski

shantolog wrote: »

Can you imagine some Estonian person saying " Estonian is crap and shouldn't be taught in Estonian schools".

I can imagine an ethnic Russian saying it, but I wouldn't expect him to get very far. The reason? Estonian is the native language (by that I mean the one they grow up knowing how to speak, speak it in the home, choose it as their day-to-day language etc.) of most people in Estonia.

It would indeed be odd to banish such a language from the schools.

books4sale

Pottler wrote: »

Primary school that he's finished with at the end of this academic year. It's the local school and that's the "ethos" - if you complained, your kids life would be a misery.

Yeah, I understand where you're coming from, probably one of these small country schools. But with all the brainwashing religious sh*te they were drilling into us back in the mid 80's I couldn't hold back and see the same happen to my own kids.

The cycle has to be broken, our generation has to do that if only for the sake of the next, when your kids are older they will have more respect for you for standing up and not taking any more of this sh*te!

mackerski

cmssjone wrote: »

Your point?

It's normally down to the individual to know what his heritage is. Some would consider it arrogant of somebody else to assume to know better.

PseudoFamous

religion being taught in schools is fine so long as it's taught objectively and all religions are given proportional attention. Maybe a twice monthly lark if needs be, but frankly it could be done away with to little ill effect.

However, my real issue with Irish primary education comes with History. In History, I was taught about Cu Chulainn, Ferdia, Brown Bull of Cooley, all that useless fucking horseshit. I knew NOTHING of actual history, but my brain was and still is stuffed with these literal fairy tails, and they were taught in "history". It's fucking ludicrous. Get that shit out of the classroom, religion at least deserves acknowledgement, but mythology is a load of ****

Jimoslimos

Solair wrote: »

Someone who is excellent at maths, science, business or whatever, has to devote vast amounts of time to doing literature in a language that isn't' their native tongue. That's really unfair and probably means they end up reducing their options at 3rd level by dragging their grades down too.

I think there's a lot of things that could be improved about our education system, but I do actually like the more rounded approach to our learning.

All children should have a basic grasp of both the humanities and sciences before leaving school or entering 3rd level. I think it reflects better on an individual how they approach subjects they don't have a natural aptitude for. Don't forget that in 3rd level, even amongst preferred subjects, there will be modules you like less than others - it is usually your performance in these that determine how well you do.

hatrickpatrick

Solair wrote: »

I would propose as an interim measure, that primary schools be organised into school districts with one principal per district.
Maybe take all the schools in one suburb / one town (work it on some population model) and then merge them when the funds are available. But, in the interim perhaps use the existing buildings as a single organisation.

Disastrous idea. Competition is how you get these organizations to perform well, if you merge them then they each effectively have a monopoly in the area and standards will go straight out the window.

Leadamp

Irish should be a choice in secondary school and religion should be a choice for the parents to make in national school and the students choice in secondary school. I've been learning Irish for 12 years and the most I can say is my name, age and where I live.

Rodin

gallag wrote: »

What's the point in Irish? It's like Ulster Scotts, the child would benefit from learning French or German etc. I think sport and religion should be scrapped and sports clubs on Saturdays and religion on Sundays if required. That way children will not be sent home with houres of homework destroying family time.

Irish unlike Ulster-Scots is an actual language.

Not something you'd hear out of Rab C Nesbitt's mouth after a few too many swallies.

Celly Smunt

Leadamp wrote: »

Irish should be a choice in secondary school and religion should be a choice for the parents to make in national school and the students choice in secondary school. I've been learning Irish for 12 years and the most I can say is my name, age and where I live.

You'll still get an A if you learn an essay where you house goes on fire and you end up at a U2 concert,and have the ability to write a postcard to your imaginary friends Sile and Sean.

hatrickpatrick

Oh and on the subject of Irish, let's delve into why exactly students seem to generally do a lot better at French.

Oh yeah, maybe it's because the subject "Irish" at school is NOT ABOUT LEARNING TO SPEAK A LANGUAGE.

We spent almost all our time at leaving cert level learning paper 2, that's the literature paper. Hours and hours learning the most mind numbingly dull and depressing sh!te. Off the top of my head, we had a story about a depressed woman with an abusive husband, a whole bunch of poems which were mainly all revolving around famine and war, and a few others I can't even remember the stories of. The only one which was entertaining and amusing was An Cearrbach Mac Caba, which is about a gambler who bets against the grim reaper and consistently outsmarts him. That's the ONLY story on the entire course which is engaging and brings a smile to your face, all the rest of them would have you swearing that the only thing Irish writers are able to tell stories about is death, war, hunger, and general misery.

Why is this? I know for a fact that there are plenty of upbeat poems, songs and stories in Irish which would have your average class of kids in stitches, why instead do they have to go for stuff which is either totally mundane and boring, or downright depressing?

And aside from the above, why is so much time spent on this literature instead of actually learning how to SPEAK THE LANGUAGE?
Like, you start learning how to pronounce and read aloud these words before you've barely touched what they actually mean. At that stage you're not learning how to speak, you're learning how to mimic. How many people out there can sing the Dragostea Din Tei song (numa numa iei) without having a clue what the words actually mean? This is not how you teach someone how to speak a second language.

csallmighty

I agree with the religion part, that should be done at home or at a Sunday school or not at all even.

But stop teaching Irish? Why dont we as a nation walk backwards into British rule again if we're going to give up our native language.

I think that schools don't spend enough time teaching Irish. I cant even manage to string a sentence together as gaeilge anymore and its a shame.

Rodin

If someone has been 'learning' Irish for 12 years and can barely say their name, age, and where they come from only, then they must be simple.

ballsymchugh

csallmighty wrote: »

I agree with the religion part, that should be done at home or at a Sunday school or not at all even.

But stop teaching Irish? Why dont we as a nation walk backwards into British rule again if we're going to give up our native language.

I think that schools don't spend enough time teaching Irish. I cant even manage to string a sentence together as gaeilge anymore and its a shame.

former labour minister conor cruise o'brien would be proud of ruairi today!

MadsL

Rodin wrote: »

If someone has been 'learning' Irish for 12 years and can barely say their name, age, and where they come from only, then they must be simple.

Or the rest of the class is so disruptive learning is impossible.

MadsL

csallmighty wrote: »

I agree with the religion part, that should be done at home or at a Sunday school or not at all even.

No schoolchildren should have a basic understanding of what Islam is??

anirishlad

I'm in 5th year and we are not told to formulate our own sentences we just take down points and learn them retarded

Shryke

csallmighty wrote: »

I agree with the religion part, that should be done at home or at a Sunday school or not at all even.

But stop teaching Irish? Why dont we as a nation walk backwards into British rule again if we're going to give up our native language.

I think that schools don't spend enough time teaching Irish. I cant even manage to string a sentence together as gaeilge anymore and its a shame.

British rule has nothing to do with this so don't get hysterical. English is the spoken language in Ireland and that's not going to change. Luckily enough it's also spoken around the world, as are many other languages. None of them are Irish.
Bit of a nonsensical attitude to have when you can't speak the language, not that that would effect you adversely in any way whatsoever.

Rodin wrote: »

If someone has been 'learning' Irish for 12 years and can barely say their name, age, and where they come from only, then they must be simple.

You're insulting most of the country. The point you've missed and that others have made is that the language isn't really thought. You learn off a few bits and pieces throughout school without practicing the language itself. I hated the damn thing and so did everyone else with a few exceptions.
It was atrocious and the only focus in class was on learning off exactly what you might need for the leaving cert. And the wagon we had teaching us, Jesus. She was half a tonne and shaped like a round bale, and the violent mood swings...

MadsL

csallmighty wrote: »

I think that schools don't spend enough time teaching Irish. I cant even manage to string a sentence together as gaeilge anymore and its a shame.

Out of interest, what efforts since you left school have you made to learn Irish? If none, then it really isn't that important to you other than some ritualistic talisman to ward off the evil Brits. Could you not just get a "Celtic" tattoo?

GalwayGuy2

However, my real issue with Irish primary education comes with History. In History, I was taught about Cu Chulainn, Ferdia, Brown Bull of Cooley, all that useless fucking horseshit. I knew NOTHING of actual history, but my brain was and still is stuffed with these literal fairy tails, and they were taught in "history". It's fucking ludicrous. Get that shit out of the classroom, religion at least deserves acknowledgement, but mythology is a load of ****

My main beef with secondary school history is that it completly glides over the more, eh, questionable acts of the irish side during the war of independence, or the Easter rising.

lily09

The new report out today places ireland very strongly in literacy and has improving results in maths and science.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1211/fourth-class-pupils-strong-in-reading-assessment.html

On top as a fourth class teacher I teach religion for 30 mins a week max. Enough to appease the priest/ diosecan inspector but not enough to impinge to much on the children's ed. Of course I am lucky it is not a sacrament year and therefore can do this.
Irish on the other hand I am torn about. I would really love the people on tis thred who say it is taught poorly to tell me how to teach it well. I make iridh board games, we watch cartoons and make movies and still there is an underlying apathy.

Daith

PseudoFamous wrote: »

However, my real issue with Irish primary education comes with History. In History, I was taught about Cu Chulainn, Ferdia, Brown Bull of Cooley, all that useless fucking horseshit. I knew NOTHING of actual history, but my brain was and still is stuffed with these literal fairy tails, and they were taught in "history". It's fucking ludicrous. Get that shit out of the classroom, religion at least deserves acknowledgement, but mythology is a load of ****

What the hell is difference between religion and mythology?

books4sale

MadsL wrote: »

No schoolchildren should have a basic understanding of what Islam is??

They can learn from watching the News most nights of the week.

wp_rathead

PseudoFamous wrote: »

religion being taught in schools is fine so long as it's taught objectively and all religions are given proportional attention. Maybe a twice monthly lark if needs be, but frankly it could be done away with to little ill effect.

However, my real issue with Irish primary education comes with History. In History, I was taught about Cu Chulainn, Ferdia, Brown Bull of Cooley, all that useless fucking horseshit. I knew NOTHING of actual history, but my brain was and still is stuffed with these literal fairy tails, and they were taught in "history". It's fucking ludicrous. Get that shit out of the classroom, religion at least deserves acknowledgement, but mythology is a load of ****

Just don't have it thought as "History"- but I don't see anything wrong with old Irish tales about "The Salmon of Knowledge" etc. being thought, they are part of our culture.. Don't think there were included as part of "history"- if they were/are your right they shouldn't be thought as history. But these tales have way more justification to be included in curriculum than stories about a son of a Jewish carpenter in Palestine

Plus in my primary school we learnt about Stone Age, Bronze Age, Iron Age, Viking Invasion, Norman Invasion in history

djPSB

Irish is our National language and would still be our spoken language only for the Brits invaded.

I think it would be sad to see it die out completely. Most young kids might not appreciate our roots.

On the other hand, learning Irish poems and pros is absolutely pointless. Kids need to be taught how to speak and understand languages so that they can be put to practical use. There should be more focus on the oral and aural examinations.

csallmighty

MadsL wrote: »

Out of interest, what efforts since you left school have you made to learn Irish? If none, then it really isn't that important to you other than some ritualistic talisman to ward off the evil Brits. Could you not just get a "Celtic" tattoo?

I have enrolled in classes but never have the time to attend because of work.

I can speak and understand spoken Irish a bit and regularly have conversations with my mother, but I cant grasp written Irish for some reason.

The whole British rule thing was just a badly conveyed joke. Some people didn't get it maybe because I didn't add a :P or "lol" at the end.

4zn76tysfajdxp

anncoates wrote: »

I don't think it's such a bad thing to make the national language compulsory. albeit taught in a context that might bring it to life a little.

Yes, I think this is a good idea. Maybe less of a focus on poems and stories and more so on conversational skills through Irish. It would be culturally beneficial, I reckon, though it may not please those who think education is only worthwhile if you're creating another drone for the multinationals.

books4sale

csallmighty wrote: »

But stop teaching Irish? Why dont we as a nation walk backwards into British rule again if we're going to give up our native language.
.

What the blue blazes are you blowing on about?

90% of the bloody population can't string two sentences of Irish together after 12 years of study so I don't see your point.

Judgement Day

I can't help but feel that the religion thing is a bit of a red herring or else there must be a vast difference between Catholic and Protestant schools. In both my primary and secondary schools we had one half hour scripture class a week - hardly onerous or time wasting. On the other hand my children attend a Church of Ireland primary school where they waste a enormous amount of time every day learning Irish, and things through Irish. For what it's worth, in my view, Irish is not the native language of most Protestants not to mention the diverse range of other nationalities which attend the school. Sectarianism at work, not very PC of me but there you have it.

chughes

djPSB wrote: »

Irish is our National language

What is a national language? Is it the language the majority of people speak on a daily basis?

Blaming the Brits is a bit pointless also. We have been independent for 90 years now. I think we can safely say that the mess is now of our own making.

Pottler

It's taught. Feckin thread about education and it's "they thought us this" and "they thought us that". They didn't feckin concentrate enough on the difference between thought and taught. Too busy teaching Irish and Religion..

Jimoslimos

Judgement Day wrote: »

For what it's worth, in my view, Irish is not the native language of most Protestants not to mention the diverse range of other nationalities which attend the school. Sectarianism at work, not very PC of me but there you have it.

Seriously? Very very wrong. Some of our most ardent advocates for the language have been Protestant, including our first President.

I see no point in the State continuing to forcibly teach the Irish language to successive generations of Irish children other than to keep the dwindling fires of a misplaced concept of nationalism burning. I would be quite happy if Irish became an optional subject taught in secondary school. If a dead language is going to be taught in primary school, then it should at least be a relatively useful dead language; teach Latin, perhaps, or maybe some variant of Ancient Greek. At least with Latin or Greek children would be learning something quite useful and not wasting countless hours over their twelve or so years of primary and secondary education being force-fed Irish, all with the end goal of barely being able to state their own name and age. And if you're going to teach a language, and that language preferably being a modern one, actually teach the language; don't require rote-learning of sentences, paragraphs and entire stories. That's not teaching; that's an exercise in memory retention and word-for-word regurgitation.

DEFTLEFTHAND

I'd like Irish to be preserved but taught in a manner which will ensure fluency among students. How do the Germans and Dutch teach English so effectively? A decent percentage of their populations are either fluent or have a good command of the English language.

csallmighty

books4sale wrote: »

What the blue blazes are you blowing on about?

90% of the bloody population can't string two sentences of Irish together after 12 years of study so I don't see your point.

I explained it was meant as a joke. But if you look into it, without the our native language what makes us different from British? Nothing.

Where did you get 90% from?

Judgement Day

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Seriously? Very very wrong. Some of our most ardent advocates for the language have been Protestant, including our first President.

No, not very very wrong. Your point is like saying because Emmet, Tone etc. were Protestants that they represented the majority of the Protestant population - they didn't, they were regarded as renegades by most of their co-religionists.

My name is URL

Is it still the case that students can obtain higher points in their Leaving Cert if they take Irish exam papers? I never really understood that one. Why should anyone's education be worth more than others just because they completed a few exams in the native language? That's something that should be done away with right now if it hasn't been already.

MadsL

books4sale wrote: »

They can learn from watching the News most nights of the week.

How many teens do you know that watch the news or read a newspaper? If you are also implying that you can learn all you need to know about Islam from the six-one news, then I think you just proved my point.

djPSB wrote: »

Irish is our National language and would still be our spoken language only for the Brits invaded were invited over

FYP

lily09

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

I'd like Irish to be preserved but taught in a manner which will ensure fluency among students. How do the Germans and Dutch teach English so effectively? A decent percentage of their populations are either fluent or have a good command of the English language.

Because they listen to English pop songs, watch American TV shows and movies. They see English as a vibrant popular language whereas the only Irish cartoons available are spoken in dialects that children can understand even if they know the vocab.

csallmighty

gvn wrote: »

I see no point in the State continuing to forcibly teach the Irish language to successive generations of Irish children other than to keep the dwindling fires of a misplaced concept of nationalism burning. I would be quite happy if Irish became an optional subject taught in secondary school. If a dead language is going to be taught in primary school, then it should at least be a relatively useful dead language; teach Latin, perhaps, or maybe some variant of Ancient Greek. At least with Latin or Greek children would be learning something quite useful and not wasting countless hours over their twelve or so years of primary and secondary education being force-fed Irish, all with the end goal of barely being able to state their own name and age. And if you're going to teach a language, and that language preferably being a modern one, actually teach the language; don't require rote-learning of sentences, paragraphs and entire stories. That's not teaching; that's an exercise in memory retention and word-for-word regurgitation.

"A relatively useful dead language."

I talk nonsense most of the time, but that post was actually painful to read.

wp_rathead

My name is URL wrote: »

Is it still the case that students can obtain higher points in their Leaving Cert if they take Irish exam papers? I never really understood that one. Why should anyone's education be worth more than others just because they completed a few exams in the native language? That's something that should be done away with right now if it hasn't been already.

especially when they are given the English Exam paper aswell, they just have to answer in Irish

MadsL

My name is URL wrote: »

Is it still the case that students can obtain higher points in their Leaving Cert if they take Irish exam papers? I never really understood that one.

As someone whose daughter is doing her exams through Irish, I see her sometime struggle in conversations with me with the fact that a lot of technical language (ie Maths, Science) she just doesn't have in English, that makes the passive learning that she gets outside of school (TV, media) more challenging. There are no huge obstacles, but do make it more difficult to do it that way. Teachers would help if they gave English equivalents for technical words, but often forget.

Why should anyone's education be worth more than others just because they completed a few exams in the native language? That's something that should be done away with right now if it hasn't been already.

Wouldn't you say that someone who completed their education through French whilst a native English speaker has a (X value) better education as they are now fluent in two languages?

BrokenArrows

Religion should be thought as a generic topic covering all major religions and not a Catholic class. It should be a class so kids understand the belief systems of the world. It shouldn't be an exam subject. It should certainly take up less time than other subjects.

Irish should be thought up to J Cert but be an optional choice for leaving certificate.

csallmighty

csallmighty wrote: »

"A relatively useful dead language."

I talk nonsense most of the time, but that post was actually painful to read.

The point was in jest. If a language is going to be taught, then let it be a modern one: French, or Spanish, or whatever. If a dead language must be taught, and Irish is essentially a dead language, then I'd put one of numerous other languages in Irish's place. As far as I'm concerned, Irish is only taught for nationalistic reasons; I see no other use for it.

books4sale

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

I'd like Irish to be preserved but taught in a manner which will ensure fluency among students. How do the Germans and Dutch teach English so effectively? A decent percentage of their populations are either fluent or have a good command of the English language.

Are you saying that you want everyone in this country using Irish on a daily basis like they use German in Germany.

I wonder sometimes what kind of fantasy 'Noddy lands' some lads live in.

BrokenArrows

gallag wrote: »

Give me a break lol, I am on my phone.

Why do people think that being on a phone excuses spelling and grammar mistakes?

gallag

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

I'd like Irish to be preserved but taught in a manner which will ensure fluency among students. How do the Germans and Dutch teach English so effectively? A decent percentage of their populations are either fluent or have a good command of the English language.

Mabey the German and dutch kids realize that learning English will help in gainful employment and not just make their parents feel warm and fuzzy with an anti British undertone (as displayed in this thread)

MadsL

csallmighty wrote: »

I explained it was meant as a joke. But if you look into it, without the our native language what makes us different from British? Nothing.

Well, there's the inability of Irish politicians to resign in disgrace for one.

books4sale

csallmighty wrote: »

Where did you get 90% from?

I'm guessing, cause i've never heard anyone use Irish outside of Galway expect some flutes down in Oz who could only string three words together....very badly!

Lelantos

BrokenArrows wrote: »

Why do people think that being on a phone excuses spelling and grammar mistakes?

Big thumbs, small keys & predictive text are the bane of us phone users

Jimoslimos

gallag wrote: »

Mabey the German and dutch kids realize that learning English will help in gainful employment and not just make their parents feel warm and fuzzy with an anti British undertone (as displayed in this thread)

Kids don't think like that anywhere. And if you think anti-British sentiment is bad amongst the Irish you should see some of the hatred the Dutch have for Germany.