Why are Irish governments so afraid of industrial action?

Brussels Sprout

The Croke Park agreement was signed by the FF/Green government and has been honoured by the current FG/Lab party.

As any regular readers of this or the Irish Economy forum know the terms of the agreement mean that no cuts to core pay or forced redundancies in the PS will be carried out by the government over the 4 year lifetime of the deal.

This has continued to be upheld despite the arrival of the Troika to plug the massive hole in the country's current accounts.

So what is it that the politicians are so afraid of. Let's imagine for a moment what would happen if there were strikes:

ICTU would mobilise all of the unions under their banner and stop work. Schools would be shut. Government offices would be closed down. Hospitals would likely be run by skeleton crews of agency workers. There'd be marches all over the country. Probably a big one in Dublin drawing maybe 150,000 people.

And then what would happen? Either the next day or the next week people would accept it and go back to work. If they weren't in work they wouldn't/shouldn't be getting paid as well meaning they'd have to return sooner or later. It's not like they'd be getting much sympathy from the rest of society either.

Besides, the sensible option would be to tackle the high earners so that anyone on under 60k would have smaller cuts and anyone on under 40k would have no cuts at all.

In Greece, Spain and Portugal people have protested and even rioted after savage cuts but in the end they had to accept it and move on.

What are the politicians so afraid of?

Gloomtastic!

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

What are the politicians so afraid of?

Facing their wife/husband/brothers/sisters/aunts/uncles/cousins and explaining why they've had to cut their pay. They're all at the trough, shovelling it in as fast as they can.

It's the only explanation I can think of! Anyone got a better one?

Denerick

Industrial action costs money. Its hurt the Greek economy enormously (though not as much as the austerity, obviously)It halts production, disrupts transport, and is generally a hassle. When a national strike is done properly it can grind the entire country to a halt.

mikemac1

Schools would be shut. Government offices would be closed down. Hospitals would likely be run by skeleton crews of agency workers. There'd be marches all over the country.

Apart from the hospitals none of those are particularly serious.
But there are others with more power

DAA staff could shut down the airport very easily, it's been done before during a SIPTU dispute.
Ok airport staff are not allowed demonstrate on airport grounds but if they walk off the job the airport is shut down.

If their comrades in the ports follow you've just declared Ireland is closed for business.
Though you could go to Belfast and Larne I suppose

edit, though I do not know if DAA are covered by the CPA

hatrickpatrick

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

And then what would happen? Either the next day or the next week people would accept it and go back to work. If they weren't in work they wouldn't/shouldn't be getting paid as well meaning they'd have to return sooner or later.

We wouldn't get very far without our hospitals, schools etc running so it'd be a question of which side would cave in first.

It's not like they'd be getting much sympathy from the rest of society either.

And that's the unbelievably f*cked up part, if you ask me.

Scofflaw

Ask anyone who has lived through periods of regular industrial action. It's extremely disruptive.

And everything is connected. Non-parents might not immediately realise that industrial action at schools, for example, means a loss of labour capacity as parents stay at home to mind children.

Closure of government offices and work to rules can be extremely disruptive for businesses - if it's illegal to do something without a permit/inspection/rubber-stamp, it's still illegal even if the reason you don't have it is because the civil servants in question are on strike.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Debator

Fire the strikers and find people who are willing to do the job at reduced wages. We have 15% unemployment in this country and have access to half a billion other workers in the EU. All we need is a politician with balls to give the two fingers to the greedy unions fumbling in the greasy till. God, I wish Thatcher was Irish.

Next.

Riskymove

Debator wrote: »

God, I wish Thatcher was Irish.

Next.

yes I mean 80s Britian was a workers paradise with full employment and joy and happiness everywhere...right?

FTA69

Riskymove wrote: »

yes I mean 80s Britian was a workers paradise with full employment and joy and happiness everywhere...right?

Of course it was. Look at all the former industrial and mining villages and towns across Wales and the north of England today. Charming places with plenty of private-sector employment, a skilled workforce and abundant opportunity for all.

golfball37

DAA employees are not Public Sector- FAO mikemac. Even their pension is private.

bmaxi

Debator wrote: »

Fire the strikers and find people who are willing to do the job at reduced wages. We have 15% unemployment in this country and have access to half a billion other workers in the EU. All we need is a politician with balls to give the two fingers to the greedy unions fumbling in the greasy till. God, I wish Thatcher was Irish.

Next.

Well, if we fire the strikers and hire others in their place we'll still have 15% unemployed.
People forget that the Trade Union movement was set up because of the injustices perpetrated in the workplace. Granted there have been some excesses and restrictive practices which have soured the image but overall they have been of benefit to workers and a lot of rights workers, both unionised and non unionised, have today would not be there but for them.
I'm not throwing out a blanket defence of union action, some of it is indefensible, but the CPA was acceded to very easily by corrupt politicians who stood to gain massively from it, the unions couldn't believe their luck. Now, the same politicians wearing different clothes, want to renegotiate the CPA to the detriment of the workers, while holding on to their own benefits.

Debator

FTA69 wrote: »

Of course it was. Look at all the former industrial and mining villages and towns across Wales and the north of England today. Charming places with plenty of private-sector employment, a skilled workforce and abundant opportunity for all.

Welcome to the free-market, pal. If the coal mine isn't profitable, shut it down. Don't expect to live off my tax money. It's up to the redundant workers to re-train and find another job. There are other options besides "government job" and "unemployment".

The problem in Ireland is that everybody wants to work in the library and the post office, and they expect top dollar for it too. Personally I think that unskilled jobs such as these should be given to citizens with physical and mental disabilities e.g. People with Downs Syndrome. You don't need a college degree to learn how to lend out books or sell a few stamps. It gives them a reason to get up in the morning and gives them a sense of self-worth. Better then wasting away in a home all day. I'm entirely serious with this proposal.

FTA69

Debator wrote: »

Welcome to the free-market, pal. If the coal mine isn't profitable, shut it down.

Even if half of them were profitable and you're only closing them to advance a broader neo-liberal agenda. And by closing them with no alternative support given you manage to take entire hard-working communities with a proud working history and in the space of ten years throw them on the scrapheap. If you look at what's going on in some of these areas, still today, it's utterly tragic. And your "free market pal" rhetoric doesn't exactly alleviate that.

The problem in Ireland is that everybody wants to work in the library and the post office, and they expect top dollar for it too.

Eh many people in Ireland just want any sort of a job, hence why the likes of a Tesco's in Wexford will get 2000 odd CVs for a couple of shelf-stacking jobs, half of whom have third-level degrees. The problem is though, is that the job aren't there thus leading to an exodus of young people and those still in employment are under systematic and sustained attack in terms of pay and conditions.

Personally I think that unskilled jobs such as these should be given to citizens with physical and mental disabilities e.g. People with Downs Syndrome. You don't need a college degree to learn how to lend out books or sell a few stamps. It gives them a reason to get up in the morning and gives them a sense of self-worth. Better then wasting away in a home all day. I'm entirely serious with this proposal.

They had a system like that over here called Remploy that offered jobs like that to the disabled. But then your beloved Tory Party shut all the workplaces down because they said it was a waste of money to "pay people to make cups of tea". Again an example of throwing people on the scrapheap.

hyperborean

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

What are the politicians so afraid of?

There is a very simple answer, there are nearly 100k PS workers on +€50k, the rabble would imply common sense says lets hit them with pay reductions.

But its not common sense!

In simplistic terms the economy is very fragile, banks and commercial entities that have a stake in public indebtedness are weak and increasing defaulting and excessive loan impairment by reducing a big chunk of PS workers incomes is not the best option.

I would imagine that if 20% of all morgage holders suddenly see thier income reduce by 10% * we would see a rush for kicking the can down the road intersets only solutions with whoever supplied them with the loans.

I wouldnt be suprised if this "little" change in circumstances for a big proportion of the working/consumer population was enough to start another more localised run on the economy and financial infrastructure that is so improtant to any economy..

Even a politician could understand this,

Debator

Even if half of them were profitable and you're only closing them to advance a broader neo-liberal agenda. And by closing them with no alternative support given you manage to take entire hard-working communities with a proud working history and in the space of ten years throw them on the scrapheap. If you look at what's going on in some of these areas, still today, it's utterly tragic. And your "free market pal" rhetoric doesn't exactly alleviate that.

Your "proud working history" means nothing when you're made redundant by progress. I suppose you look back on Victorian times with fondness, when hundreds of men, women and children slaved away on the looms in cramped work house. Thankfully technology has resigned such horrid scenes to the dustbin of history. The closing of the dirty, dangerous mines was a good thing. Maybe the young people in these former-mining towns should consider going to university? Even the label of a "mining town" makes me facepalm. Talk about putting all your eggs in one basket. Look what happened to Limerick when Dell left.

Eh many people in Ireland just want any sort of a job, hence why the likes of a Tesco's in Wexford will get 2000 odd CVs for a couple of shelf-stacking jobs, half of whom have third-level degrees. The problem is though, is that the job aren't there thus leading to an exodus of young people and those still in employment are under systematic and sustained attack in terms of pay and conditions.

Once again, it's the free market. Be thankful you have the option of working in any of the other EU states with no need for a work permit or visa. In the socialist paradise of North Korea, which the unions seem to aspire to, you can be shot for attempting to cross the border.

They had a system like that over here called Remploy that offered jobs like that to the disabled. But then your beloved Tory Party shut all the workplaces down because they said it was a waste of money to "pay people to make cups of tea". Again an example of throwing people on the scrapheap.

What makes you think the Tories are my "beloved" party? I'm Irish. It's a shame if what you say is true. Any scheme which offers disabled people government employment should be welcomed. But it should be necessary employment. No point creating fake jobs for the sake of job statistics. I'd love to clear out all the middle-aged, arrogant, ungrateful, complacent paper pushers in our civil service and replace them with disabled people who would only love the chance to work.

FTA69

I suppose you look back on Victorian times with fondness, when hundreds of men, women and children slaved away on the looms in cramped work house. Thankfully technology has resigned such horrid scenes to the dustbin of history.

Strawman much?

The closing of the dirty, dangerous mines was a good thing.

Not for the thousands of people who lost their jobs it wasn't, or the people who depended on them. Or the local economies of areas that were dependent on them for over a hundred years.

Talk about putting all your eggs in one basket. Look what happened to Limerick when Dell left.

Which says a lot about the over-reliance on MNCs in many countries, which raises even bigger questions about the sustainability of global capitalism.

Once again, it's the free market. Be thankful you have the option of working in any of the other EU states with no need for a work permit or visa. In the socialist paradise of North Korea, which the unions seem to aspire to, you can be shot for attempting to cross the border.

So mass emigration is a great thing for Ireland so?

What makes you think the Tories are my "beloved" party? I'm Irish.

Weren't you lauding Thatcher two seconds ago?

FTA69

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remploy

Also a bit about the Reploy initiative that Iain Duncan Smith is currently trying to take a hatchet to. Not that Labour were any better.

Brussels Sprout

hyperborean wrote: »

There is a very simple answer, there are nearly 100k PS workers on +€50k, the rabble would imply common sense says lets hit them with pay reductions.

But its not common sense!

In simplistic terms the economy is very fragile, banks and commercial entities that have a stake in public indebtedness are weak and increasing defaulting and excessive loan impairment by reducing a big chunk of PS workers incomes is not the best option.

The problem with this argument is that the money is going to leave the economy either way (it's part of the agreement with the Troika to get our deficit under control). The government only gets to decide where the axe falls.