Southside Dublin Rents Going Up?

Zamboni

garhjw wrote: »

With the additional taxes being levied on people with additional properties, it is not surprising they have to increase rents irrespective of increased demand etc.

Only if the market will bear the new price.
The price a tenant can/will pay is not determined by the landlords costs.

borderlinemeath

Zamboni wrote: »

The naivety on this thread is incredible.
Nobody has any solid evidence of rent increases in South Dublin outside of anecdotal tales from friends and biased reports form vested interests.
It does not exist.

My fiance is a landlord. These figures are solid evidence of rents increasing. No bull, but actual facts and figures over the past year.

In February he let a house (second letting) in Louth for €50 per month more than the previous tenant was paying.

In April he let a house in D6 (first letting) without having to advertise as he had a steady stream of renters approach him while renovations were being carried out. Rent was set at market level which has since increased hugely for the type of property (2 bed house) so it more than likely will increase for the tenant next April. The current tenant is more than happy and doesn't want to leave but if they do, then barring catastrophe there should be a queue of people waiting to rent the house.

In September he re let a house in D12 after a small refurb. The previous tenant had been there for 3 years and had negotiated a decrease of €100 (€50 per year, over 2 years) but was now moving to a smaller house. The house was re let at €200 more per month than the last tenant was paying.

I myself had a rental house that was let to the same tenant for 7 years. She had renegotiated a reduction of €250 over the past few years and again was downsizing as her son had moved out. I refurbished and re let the house at €100 more than she was paying. I was a bit panicky that I wouldn't let at the advertised price but the phone never stopped ringing the morning it went onto daft. I showed the house that evening for less than 3 hours and pretty much everybody arrived with references for me to check and deposits in hand. I took the ad down from daft that night when I got home. I'm sure I could have achieved more rent but wanted to let immediately so I priced it more than fairly compared to others in the locality.

By pandering to the vested interests with your innocence you are simply assisting the VI's create a self fulfilling prophecy.

By ignoring the reality that is out there, ie less properties and a steady stream of tenants, you can keep on convincing only yourself. Unless you are in the position of being either a tenant looking for somewhere to rent in a decent area or a landlord who is in the position of letting somewhere, you're opinion has no basis. In fact, as you say yourself it is "anecdotal tales from friends and biased reports form vested interests"

People not houses buying DOES NOT EQUAL higher rent in South Dublin.
It is not that bloody simple.

But it does equate to a demand for rental properties and that effects supply. That is simple.

Also, do people think that the folks moving into Dublin looking for work, rent in sunny suburbs of south Dublin?

Have a look back to some threads here in Sep/Oct. When SKY began employing people in D4 there were a good few threads from people who were starting in those jobs that could not get accomodation in the surrounding areas. That's just the few that post here.

Or emigration? There are plenty of young educated jobless people and families leaving Dublin, should we quietly forget to mention them too?

No, but the graduates leaving may not have been coming from rental properties. They may have lived at home/student acc/digs so not necessarily freeing up accomodation on leaving. My tenants son moved to the UK, so she moved to a smaller house with her daughter and a new family moved into my house, with a toddler and another on the way. I'm happy, my old tenant has a new landlord that's happy and the circle continues.

A friend of mine was emigrating as his company was expanding and he was asked to head up the new venture for the immediate future. He let his house rather than selling as he intends to move back within the next few years. His house is in an alright area of D14, 3 bed, no parking, small garden. Built in the last 7 years so sound insulation wouldn't be the best. As it's not my house I'm not going to say on here the rent that was asked (and achieved) but suffice to say I was gobsmacked at how much he was getting per month.

To summarise - an alleged scenario is being presented without evidence.
Despite the alleged scenario having multi-factorial causality, one single factor is being presented as the sole cause, whilst ignoring other factors which would negate the possibility of the alleged scenario.

So you're not denying that rents are increasing? Just that there's more than one factor to be attributed to it? So the EAs and 'vested interests' are not actually making it up but just simplifying the cause. Make up your mind will you.

murphaph

Zamboni wrote: »

Only if the market will bear the new price.
The price a tenant can/will pay is not determined by the landlords costs.

The "can" is correct, the "will" is not so simple.

Many landlords will increase or attempt to increase rents due to new costs. Some tenants will not be able to pay these rents and will leave for cheaper housing, some will be able to but will choose not to and will leave for cheaper housing and some will be able to and will pay the increased rent.

The ones moving to cheaper housing will likely want to remain in Dublin for work or work prospects. This means there will be increased competition for cheaper housing in other parts of the city. This is possibly the phenomenon that I see in D15 with rents increasing there.

You suggest that nobody can confirm rent increases and that they are all anecdotal...but have you got irrefutable proof to the contrary???

zom

It's great time to buy to rent (not all areas but Dublin South for sure). In 20-30 years you will get your property paid from rent.

I wonder if it was taken under consideration when government delay Rent Allowance revision till mid of 2013. Do they hope prices will go down since then?

helimachoptor

Went to view a number of houses in the sandyford/Leopardstown areas, in both at least 12 couples came to the viewing and within 24 hours bids were accepted.

Thankfully have managed to get myself a good lease for a very nice semi d for very reasonable rates but I lucked out tbh

steve9859

Zamboni wrote: »

Only if the market will bear the new price.
The price a tenant can/will pay is not determined by the landlords costs.

If all landlords get hit with the costs and all landlords pass it on then, yes, the price that the tenant has to pay will be determined by the landlords costs

mikemac1

All landlords are not the same though

One might be struggling and try to pass on every increase on their mortgage and every hike in management fees when setting the rent

The landlord next door owns 20 properties and many of them for over 15 years and wants all of them full all of the time. And is prepared to haggle on rent to get this.

It's not a cartel, a landlord can look for anything they want and demand any price but even just 2 weeks of vacancy and any increase they wanted to wiped out and more

beaner88

steve9859 wrote: »

If all landlords get hit with the costs and all landlords pass it on then, yes, the price that the tenant has to pay will be determined by the landlords costs

That is not reality though. Not many people understand the basic economics of supply and demand. You should read up on it.

There are about 100K landlords in Ireland. They do not act like a homogeneous bunch. They do not share the same costs. The majority of rented properties have no mortgage yet astonishingly these places charge the same rent as those that do. Even more crazy some landlords receive less rent than the mortgage they pay.
You being the business guru that you are would probably charge rent of mortgage+costs+10% profit?

steve9859

beaner88 wrote: »

That is not reality though. Not many people understand the basic economics of supply and demand. You should read up on it.

There are about 100K landlords in Ireland. They do not act like a homogeneous bunch. They do not share the same costs. The majority of rented properties have no mortgage yet astonishingly these places charge the same rent as those that do. Even more crazy some landlords receive less rent than the mortgage they pay.
You being the business guru that you are would probably charge rent of mortgage+costs+10% profit?

Christ, you're a real hater aren't you?

The property tax is as homogenous a levy on landlords as it is possible to get, unlike other costs such as mortgage interest. So therefore landlords are much more likely to act as one in passing a portion of it on.

I receive less rent than the mortgage I pay as the disastrous mismanagement of the Irish economy has meant that I have had to move elsewhere to find work, and I rent out my flat. So, yes, I will be passing the property tax straight through and my tenants have already agreed. In fact, when I recently rented out the place (in D8) I had so much demand that I could not respond to all the queries, even though I priced it above what I perceived to be the market average. So I will add to the anecdotal evidence that south Dublin rents are only heading upwards.

Zamboni

murphaph wrote: »

The "can" is correct, the "will" is not so simple.

Many landlords will increase or attempt to increase rents due to new costs. Some tenants will not be able to pay these rents and will leave for cheaper housing, some will be able to but will choose not to and will leave for cheaper housing and some will be able to and will pay the increased rent.

The ones moving to cheaper housing will likely want to remain in Dublin for work or work prospects. This means there will be increased competition for cheaper housing in other parts of the city. This is possibly the phenomenon that I see in D15 with rents increasing there.

You suggest that nobody can confirm rent increases and that they are all anecdotal...but have you got irrefutable proof to the contrary???

I am happy to respond to you because you are one of the landlords here I respect as a poster, but you should know it is not up to someone to prove a negative.
I know of several negotiated rent decreases in a variety of accommodation in the south side of Dublin that have occurred over the past few months but I would not have the audacity to use this as a means to call a decrease in rental prices.
I am just calling for critical thinking to be applied.

beaner88

steve9859 wrote: »

Christ, you're a real hater aren't you?

The property tax is as homogenous a levy on landlords as it is possible to get, unlike other costs such as mortgage interest. So therefore landlords are much more likely to act as one in passing a portion of it on.

I receive less rent than the mortgage I pay as the disastrous mismanagement of the Irish economy has meant that I have had to move elsewhere to find work, and I rent out my flat. So, yes, I will be passing the property tax straight through and my tenants have already agreed. In fact, when I recently rented out the place (in D8) I had so much demand that I could not respond to all the queries, even though I priced it above what I perceived to be the market average. So I will add to the anecdotal evidence that south Dublin rents are only heading upwards.

So you just got the market rate. The property tax has no bearing on this rate. No wonder you are sunk as a landlord if you can't get the basics right.

borderlinemeath

beaner88 wrote: »

So you just got the market rate. The property tax has no bearing on this rate. No wonder you are sunk as a landlord if you can't get the basics right.

The market rate will increase as the property tax is implemented. In every business when costs rise to the business the product price increases eventually. I can understand why tenants want to be obstinate and stick their heads in the sand but it will happen.

Landlords won't necessarily pass it on to all tenants. Long term tenants may escape for a while but when the 'market rate' increases then it could get passed on. For every tenant that tells a landlord they're moving out because they're not going to pay the landlords property tax, they'll more than likely move into a property that has an increase built in that they are none the wiser for. Every landlords cost varies due to mortgage payments so by moving to a cheaper property you may still be covering all the new landlords costs. It's all cyclical, as tenants move on and think they've beaten the landlord at his own game, they will, in fact be making it easier as the landlord can bill the new tenant with a new market rate.

While increases are noticable in Dublin, they will probably increase over time elsewhere once this tax takes hold.

beaner88

borderlinemeath wrote: »

The market rate will increase as the property tax is implemented. In every business when costs rise to the business the product price increases eventually. I can understand why tenants want to be obstinate and stick their heads in the sand but it will happen.

Landlords won't necessarily pass it on to all tenants. Long term tenants may escape for a while but when the 'market rate' increases then it could get passed on. For every tenant that tells a landlord they're moving out because they're not going to pay the landlords property tax, they'll more than likely move into a property that has an increase built in that they are none the wiser for. Every landlords cost varies due to mortgage payments so by moving to a cheaper property you may still be covering all the new landlords costs. It's all cyclical, as tenants move on and think they've beaten the landlord at his own game, they will, in fact be making it easier as the landlord can bill the new tenant with a new market rate.

While increases are noticable in Dublin, they will probably increase over time elsewhere once this tax takes hold.

That is again plain wrong. This is not every business. This is not the oil business with a handful of distrubutors or supermarkets which have 3-4 players involved. You have 100k of different landlords who will react differently and all working off vastly different cost bases. You can try and increase your rent if the market will bear it but if it won't you will not get tenants whilst the guy beside you will get the pick of them. Supply and demand. Research it for the day.

The only way it can affect the market price is by reducing supply as landlords get out of the game. But there are plenty of chumps stuck subsidising rents.

borderlinemeath

beaner88 wrote: »

That is again plain wrong. This is not every business. This is not the oil business with a handful of distrubutors or supermarkets which have 3-4 players involved. You have 100k of different landlords who will react differently and all working off vastly different cost bases. You can try and increase your rent if the market will bear it but if it won't you will not get tenants whilst the guy beside you will get the pick of them. Supply and demand. Research it for the day.

The only way it can affect the market price is by reducing supply as landlords get out of the game. But there are plenty of chumps stuck subsidising rents.

Every business does increase it's costs when prices go up. They can be clever and market it in such a way that it may not look like an increase but only a fool will believe that businesses aren't out to make the most profit they can.

I did say that all landlords have different cost bases, you managed to miss that. Also I will be able to increase my rental when the time comes as I priced it slightly below the market rate last year for an immediate let. I was the landlord who got the pick of tenants and I've plenty of leeway to go upwards thanks very much. No research needed for me. :rolleyes:

There is a reduction in supply, particularly in Dublin. Maybe you missed all the posts from people in this thread (and others) stating how difficult it is to get suitable rentals in Dublin. :rolleyes:

murphaph

Zamboni wrote: »

I am just calling for critical thinking to be applied.

And you're correct to do so. People should open their eyes and decide for themselves what's happening out there. When viewings are attracting more than half a dozen prospective tenants at a tome, then it's clearly not a renters market (in that area, might still be somewhere else).

I am not surprised that you know of negotiated rent decreases. I'm in the process of moving my house to RAS, which will mean a loss of ca. €700 pa for me. Why? Well, my tenants are a family with 1 child who have been told by their CWO that their RS will be terminated in January if they haven't found accommodation for a max of €775 (or haven't been able to get me to reduce from the current €900 to €775).

I know these people well now (have been tenants for 5 years) and I don't think they'll find anything other than a 1 bed flat for 775, IF the LL takes RS at all. I don't want to see them in this situation and they have been excellent tenants (had they not been, I wouldn't be bothering for them) so I am personally prepared to lose some money on the deal. I'm "lucky" insofar as I don't have a hefty mortgage on the property (bought in the 90's) so I'm in a position to help these people basically. This does not reflect the market value of the property however, it's just me doing them a favour essentially. What do I get out of it apart from a warm fuzzy feeling? I get the peace of mind of continuing with tenants who have never been so much as a day late with their full rent in 5 years and who look after the place like owner occupiers. I would assume the people you know have also been excellent tenants and their LLs are assigning some monetary value to that certainty.

mikemac1

Queuing with several other tenants to view a place

Deposit in your phóca and taking it on the spot if the place was half daycent

Ugh, reminds me of 1998, bad times

Getting the Evening Herald and frantically making phonecalls

No daft.ie back then :pac:

mikemac1

Of course the council are going to seek a lower rent

In return you get security and that's worth something too

The councils explain it
http://www.environ.ie/en/DevelopmentHousing/Housing/SocialHousingSupport/RentalAccomodationScheme/PublicationsDocuments/FileDownLoad,2460,en.pdf

1. The landlord not having to collect rents for the duration of the RAS contract;
2. The landlord not having to fill vacancies (advertise and interview prospective tenants) for the duration of the RAS contract;
If you do not currently have a SWA rent supplement tenant but are interested in participating in the RAS, please send your contact details and those of your property - (address, no of bedrooms/bedspaces etc.) - to the RAS/Housing Unit in your local authority and you will be contacted if and when a need for your property is identified.
3. The fact that the average yield across the private rented sector is less than a full year’s rent due to vacancies/tenant turnover;
4. The very bankable asset that a guaranteed fixed- term RAS rent payment represents; and
Rental Accommodation Scheme (RAS)
5. Guaranteed prompt payment by a State agency.

help these people and favour is just emotional language.

The guarantee of fixed rent and no vacancy periods is worth €€€ too

murphaph

mikemac1 wrote: »

help these people and favour is just emotional language.

The guarantee of fixed rent and no vacancy periods is worth €€€ too

It's not worth it mike. If it was worth it, I would have moved to the RAS scheme 5 years ago when it first appeared. I'm only reluctantly moving to it now, because my loss will be lower (€840 pm will be paid from council, instead of €775 from RS).

If RAS didn't exist, I couldn't justify going down to 775, so I'd be forced to let the tenants go and re let it for 950 or 1000.

If RAS was so attractive, it would be far more popular among landlords than it is. I am human mike, I'm doing them a serious favour, simple as that. My tenants recognise it (having looked around for something else and realising that there's basically nothing that caters to their needs for the budget allowed), even if you don't, so I don't really care.

mikemac1

murphaph wrote: »

My tenants recognise it , even if you don't, so I don't really care.

We're discussing different schemes and rental income

Don't take posts personally

murphaph

mikemac1 wrote: »

We're discussing different schemes and rental income

Don't take posts personally

I wasn't aware I was tbh. I am confused as to how we were discussing different schemes. I was talking about the RAS and the info you posted is all about the RAS

beaner88

How are people finding some of the more remote suburban rental markets? Are tenants being pushed out further now? Places like Bray or Leixlip to the West?

zom

I wonder why supply and demand law is not working in this case?