Cork Housing Market

froger

I have made a post on the Accommodation forum but would like to know what people from Cork think about the housing market locally.

I have been looking around with an interest in buying, but either have not found the value I want or am totally underwhelmed at the quality of stock available.

Recently while searching the price property register I noticed some townhouses in Fionn Laoi in Ballincollig that sold for between 25-30K. It looks like they were both in a block. These houses were on the market last year for 185k.

Previous asking price:

http://www.myhome.ie/residential/bro...co-cork/195931

Selling price as per price property register:

http://www.propertypriceregister.ie/...A?OpenDocument


Does anybody know anything about Fionn Laoi??

What do people think of value in the market in general in Cork? Is there still a long way to go before we hit bottom?

Is there anybody actually wanting to take the plunge and buy a home?

CorkRebell

That looks a bit suspect to be honest. A lot of NAMA properties out in ballincollig. I doubt those properties were advertised to the public at those lower prices, if you know what I mean. As a person that has been looking locally for years i'd hang on another while. No indicators of recovery and I reckon a glut of buy to let stuff will come onto the market in the second half of the year causing even more problems. Look at the waterford or limerick city market as an indicator of where the cork market is headed. The only thing that can stop that from happening is hyper inflation or secession from the state.

Outkast_IRE

First question for you.

Is there any particular area you want to live ?
Do you want to live near where you work ?

There is some decent value in the market but to me i only see it really in fixer upers where the houses are possibly on the market cause the previous owners died or were forced to move .....

Outkast_IRE

CorkRebell wrote: »

Personally i'd prefer city centre as I work there but i'm also looking at commuter towns. My belief is just because something is cheaper doesn't necessarily mean it's good value. A large growing proportion of the irish property market is toxic. Basically properties cannot be considered assets if they cost more to own than they can potentially earn. In that respect I wouldn't touch some of the fixer upper stuff with a barge pole. The purchase price may be cheap but the cost of getting it to a rentable/habitable standard could be more than the purchase price. The market is not functioning properly and that's why probate sales are prominent. The inheritors want shot of it at any price as it's a liability for many reasons. Currently there is no incentive to sell for most owners, the wait and see attitude is prevailing. Property tax, PRSI and the change in bank repossession law will have a big effect on that. Newish 3bed semi's should be no more than 70k in the city area, already you can buy that in rathcormac for 55k. 3bed semi prices will define the rest of the market over time and could be considered a median indicator of the market price range.

Honestly when you say city area lets be honest and say there is a large difference between northside and southside with regards to prices etc.........
my eyes are only on southside properties at the moment to be honest im not buying now, but in a few years it would be the plan.

However when you say a 3 bed semi in the city should be 70K for example i will ask you do you think a 3 bed semi in bishopstown or glasheen should be 70K ?

If you think yes , then personally i dont think it will ever hit those prices you have plently of colleges/student/ hospitals on this side of the city to ensure constant rental demand if thats why your buying.

However not considering houses to buy as a fixer uper is foolish i will tell you this as
1. A plumber.
2. A Building services/ Building energy engineer.
The majority of the new stock of houses built in estates is ****, poorly built, and if properly checked there would be alot of basic failures with regards to regulations etc.

The price of a house is ultimately determined by many things, but only one thing will stand the test of time "Location". A fixer uper in the right location will always be a sound investment in comparison to a house in a far flung commuter town.

Also dont think of a properties earning potential unless you are buying as an investment. If you are buying a home treat it as such and as long as you arent overstretching your finances you should be happy.

Lets say i buy a 3 bed semi in rathcormac and commute to the city, i save €50,000 in comparison to buying in the city........ but how many hours will you lose traveling and on extra travel expenses doing this every day... not to mention further trips for shopping etc etc.....

Im a big believer of live relatively near where you work.

pwurple

How did you come to the 70k figure? Taking a 3 bed semi-d to be 1500 sq ft... Rebuild costs in cork city are estimated to be around 7 euro per sq ft. That's 105,000 before you buy the site to put it on, flooring or a kitchen. If you can buy it cheaper than you can build it, I would call that good value.

I am looking to buy at the moment myself, and there is very little on the market. We are in no rush though. So we can keep an eye out in the area. Bit annoyed the tax relief is gone for 2013. That might hold a lot of people off until 2014.

Edit, we sold in ballincollig, only because work moved, and we value our quality of life too much to spend hours in a car every day. We now rent 5 to 10 mins from work, and hope to buy in this area. We liked ballincollig to though. Nothing wrong with it.

Oh, and i think new houses were slapped up. No garden, crammed in on top of each other, low ceilings, pokey rooms. Not my bag. I look for the older more solid houses in an established area where you can find out a bit about the neighbours. I wouldn't have the time (or funds) for a big redevelopment, but as lng as it was livable (functional roof, heating, bathroom and kitchen) i wouldn't be afraid of some repairs.

angeline

Fionn Laoi is now owned by NAMA. It is a very unfinished estate and I personally would not buy there. Also wouldn't be great if the dam burst...

CorkRebell

I get the 70k figure from 2.5 times average income which is the normal rate for a sustainable market. 3bed semis would be considered the average house as they are the most common form of housing in ireland. Rebuild costs have nothing to do with asking prices except for seller aspirations. A lot of property was upgraded during the boom through equity release on mortgages. That put the mortgage at risk and the people that did that are paying for it now. I would imagine you could easily find a house now that has already been fixed up for sale at less than it cost the current owner to refurbish. We still have a massive oversupply of houses and gravity always wins, we are nowhere near the bottom despite what the media and government say. A huge factor which a lot of people ignore is incurred cost of ownership. i.e if you became a property owner tomorrow what extra expenses would you have that you didn't have before, and is that greater than the alternative of renting. Most investors seek a return of 10% for their risk in property. If you compare the costs of ownership and potential rent you can see why investors are staying clear of the Irish market. Caveat emptor! Never catch a falling knife!

pwurple wrote: »

How did you come to the 70k figure? Taking a 3 bed semi-d to be 1500 sq ft... Rebuild costs in cork city are estimated to be around 7 euro per sq ft. That's 105,000 before you buy the site to put it on, flooring or a kitchen. If you can buy it cheaper than you can build it, I would call that good value.

I am looking to buy at the moment myself, and there is very little on the market. We are in no rush though. So we can keep an eye out in the area. Bit annoyed the tax relief is gone for 2013. That might hold a lot of people off until 2014.

Edit, we sold in ballincollig, only because work moved, and we value our quality of life too much to spend hours in a car every day. We now rent 5 to 10 mins from work, and hope to buy in this area. We liked ballincollig to though. Nothing wrong with it.

Oh, and i think new houses were slapped up. No garden, crammed in on top of each other, low ceilings, pokey rooms. Not my bag. I look for the older more solid houses in an established area where you can find out a bit about the neighbours. I wouldn't have the time (or funds) for a big redevelopment, but as lng as it was livable (functional roof, heating, bathroom and kitchen) i wouldn't be afraid of some repairs.

pwurple

Sorry to quibble, but your figures are a bit off the mark. The CSO has the average wage for 2012 q3 to be 694.46 per week. That is an average wge of 36,111. even 2.5 times that is over 90k.
See here for reference.
http://www.cso.ie/quicktables/GetQuickTables.aspx?FileName=EHQ03.asp&TableName=Earnings+and+Labour+Costs&StatisticalProduct=DB_EH

The 'oversupply' is of poor quality units, which no-one wants to buy. Those I agree need to drop through the floor. But there is an undersupply in desirable houses. We had 3 people bidding on our house when we sold 2 months ago. We have been outbid several times in the last year up to values over the initial asking price in the suburbs where we want to buy. The property section of the examiner is toilet paper thin these days!

The investor market is different. There have been changes which undermined that also. The amount of mortgage interest which can be put against tax used to be 100%. It is now 75%. Nppr, prtb, BER, household charge are all extra expenses. Those are all barriers. The irish investor market is like no other in the world. The vast majority of landlords have 1 investor property. And honestly, there is no income in that. None. We have 4 (inherited, but mortgaged to renovate) and we just barely break even most years. Made a small loss in 2012, and that is with them all fully occupied.

I think there is another type of greed in Ireland showing its face, greed regarding hammering down of prices. Money is not some etheral entitiy. Someone, somewhere always picks up the loss. There is always a human cost. In a lot of cases now, it is small families who need to move from their flat, to a bigger place. They have to suck up that huge loss when they move, and have ten years or more of their lifetime earnings wiped out. I really feel that is unethical.

Balmed Out

pwurple wrote: »

I think there is another type of greed in Ireland showing its face, greed regarding hammering down of prices. Money is not some etheral entitiy. Someone, somewhere always picks up the loss. There is always a human cost. In a lot of cases now, it is small families who need to move from their flat, to a bigger place. They have to suck up that huge loss when they move, and have ten years or more of their lifetime earnings wiped out. I really feel that is unethical.

To be fair anyone moving home is selling at less then what they would have hoped for but they are also buying at less then they would have expected. Not being allowed to move is a different story.

I have wanted to buy but rented for 11 years as I didnt feel there was any value and today there still is no value where I want to buy largely because of government interference in the market which I feel is unethical. If YOU make a poor financial choice then its something YOU must pay for BECAUSE SOMONE MUST. I feel very sorry for those who lose money but why dont I hear anyone complaining about all those who have lost a fortune on banking shares? - often this was their retirement plan.

pwurple

Yes, of course poor financial decisions come with consequences. but currently the price of a house is often below what it costs to even build it, and you effectively get the land it sits on for free. How is that bad value?

murphym7

pwurple wrote: »

Sorry to quibble, but your figures are a bit off the mark. The CSO has the average wage for 2012 q3 to be 694.46 per week. That is an average wge of 36,111. even 2.5 times that is over 90k.
See here for reference.
http://www.cso.ie/quicktables/GetQuickTables.aspx?FileName=EHQ03.asp&TableName=Earnings+and+Labour+Costs&StatisticalProduct=DB_EH

The 'oversupply' is of poor quality units, which no-one wants to buy. Those I agree need to drop through the floor. But there is an undersupply in desirable houses. We had 3 people bidding on our house when we sold 2 months ago. We have been outbid several times in the last year up to values over the initial asking price in the suburbs where we want to buy. The property section of the examiner is toilet paper thin these days!

The investor market is different. There have been changes which undermined that also. The amount of mortgage interest which can be put against tax used to be 100%. It is now 75%. Nppr, prtb, BER, household charge are all extra expenses. Those are all barriers. The irish investor market is like no other in the world. The vast majority of landlords have 1 investor property. And honestly, there is no income in that. None. We have 4 (inherited, but mortgaged to renovate) and we just barely break even most years. Made a small loss in 2012, and that is with them all fully occupied.

I think there is another type of greed in Ireland showing its face, greed regarding hammering down of prices. Money is not some etheral entitiy. Someone, somewhere always picks up the loss. There is always a human cost. In a lot of cases now, it is small families who need to move from their flat, to a bigger place. They have to suck up that huge loss when they move, and have ten years or more of their lifetime earnings wiped out. I really feel that is unethical.

Can't really agree with your greed comment, buyers now are going to pay the very least amount of money possible for houses, why is that considered greed? It is really not my responsibility to pick up the loss surely? I do feel for people who are losing their shirts at the moment, I have two sisters in that boat. But as I said, it is not my responsibility. It is certainly not greed on my part by wishing to pay the least amount possible for the home I buy, It would be foolish to do otherwise.

Balmed Out

pwurple wrote: »

Yes, of course poor financial decisions come with consequences. but currently the price of a house is often below what it costs to even build it, and you effectively get the land it sits on for free. How is that bad value?

The value of something is not the cost of it but what someones prepared to pay for it.
When your looking at that valuation method you must also remember that much of what has been built was done so with inflated labour, material and land costs. The only areas Im aware of where thats true are where there is a massive oversupply of houses.
Where im looking houses are no where near the current build cost and people are still looking for silly money for sites. Go to any town west north or east and prices are far less. Where I am its still a waiting game. So long as they are not being forced to sell or repossessed people are looking to still make a profit or at least avoid a loss which is fair enough on their part but would not be happening if we had a market devoid of government interference.

froger

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

First question for you.

Is there any particular area you want to live ?
Do you want to live near where you work ?

There is some decent value in the market but to me i only see it really in fixer upers where the houses are possibly on the market cause the previous owners died or were forced to move .....

Ideally would like to be in the west side of the city or western suburbs. I have seen some new build properties which seem okay, but prices to me still seem high for what they are, but since they are new build and most likely NAMA they will never drop in price.

Also I would have reservations about build quality as well in newer builds. But having said that loads of the houses built in the 70's boom are fairly rubbish as well, and there is always subsidence to consider.

I have view a number of houses that were fixer up houses but they were looking for crazy amounts for them. The only houses that were decent value for me, are ones that I did get outbid on, in some cases by crazy amounts.

lisasimpson

looking to but myself. there is still a bit if a celtic tiger attitude out there.. going to take my time im in no rush. id like ballincollig but would wary of certain estate, flooding and quality of build. take ur time

Outkast_IRE

froger wrote: »

Ideally would like to be in the west side of the city or western suburbs. I have seen some new build properties which seem okay, but prices to me still seem high for what they are, but since they are new build and most likely NAMA they will never drop in price.

Also I would have reservations about build quality as well in newer builds. But having said that loads of the houses built in the 70's boom are fairly rubbish as well, and there is always subsidence to consider.

I have view a number of houses that were fixer up houses but they were looking for crazy amounts for them. The only houses that were decent value for me, are ones that I did get outbid on, in some cases by crazy amounts.

With the amount of mortgages in arrears and the amount of idle housing stock its safe enough to hold tight at the moment id say. Its probably only a matter of time before more properties hit the market after repossesion by the banks.

ABajaninCork

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

With the amount of mortgages in arrears and the amount of idle housing stock its safe enough to hold tight at the moment id say. Its probably only a matter of time before more properties hit the market after repossesion by the banks.

I would agree with this. Especially as I now understand the rules have been changed to make it easier for the banks to repossess.

With all these repossessions coming down the pipe, I wonder what the banks will then do with the stock? They can't just dump them all on the market, and the extra stock will drive prices down even more.

I've lived here for four years. IMO, with the newer houses, they are most certainly a triumph of style over substance! I bet if the Building Regs were properly enforced, a lot of houses would either need to have substantial remedial work done or need to be knocked. If I were in the happy position of being able to buy, there's no way I'd buy a Celtic Tiger lash-up. I would look for an older property to do up nicely. And there's not too many of them about unfortunately.

Coucou

froger wrote: »

I have made a post on the Accommodation forum but would like to know what people from Cork think about the housing market locally.

I have been looking around with an interest in buying, but either have not found the value I want or am totally underwhelmed at the quality of stock available.

Recently while searching the price property register I noticed some townhouses in Fionn Laoi in Ballincollig that sold for between 25-30K. It looks like they were both in a block. These houses were on the market last year for 185k.

Previous asking price:

http://www.myhome.ie/residential/bro...co-cork/195931

Selling price as per price property register:

http://www.propertypriceregister.ie/...A?OpenDocument


Does anybody know anything about Fionn Laoi??

What do people think of value in the market in general in Cork? Is there still a long way to go before we hit bottom?

Is there anybody actually wanting to take the plunge and buy a home?

We actually bought a house there and there was good few of them bought back in 2010. Very quite and nice area - no trouble. And the fact that they were actually taken over by NAMA from McInerneys seems to be to our benefit as before we had private security on the site and now all the uninhabited house were bought by O'Callaghans as far as I know. In the last 2 months they've been working like mad finishing them up and apparently then they will look after the site. So none of them seems to be for council houses - they are all being rented out for the moment, not for a very small money which is good for us. Not sure if they have plans to sell them in the future.

Coucou

angeline wrote: »

Fionn Laoi is now owned by NAMA. It is a very unfinished estate and I personally would not buy there. Also wouldn't be great if the dam burst...

I wouldn't say it's a very unfinished estate. Generally all the house are finished on the outside, and loads of them in the inside, just not furnished. There is an area on the back which was going to be an apartment block which was only started when McInerneys went down so that's quite unfinished. And the site next to the estate which was going to be a playground but as I just said - loads of work going on since they bought the houses from NAMA so definitely work following as I'd say they will be loads of changes in the next year.

Barr

I can't belive that place in Fionn Laoi sold for €26k :eek:. There is more to that sale than meets the eye I'd guess.