has motor tax passed the "is it worth buying" rate?

Jordan537

feel free to correct me if im wrong but i have a feeling the ANPR camera in the cop cars cannot detect TAX ?

Ronnie Beck

awec wrote: »

You can't complain about the government and bankers not paying their share if you don't pay your own.

I do pay my own and I will complain.

awec

This post has been deleted.

The Bishop Basher

Deleted User wrote: »

Just out of interest what are you driving to pay €1500 in tax?

In my experience there's a lot of people poor mouthing about road tax who are driving around in 2.5l+ luxury cars. Strange kind of 'austerity' isn't it?

535D. It's nothing to do with austerity. I've already said I can afford to pay it. I just choose not to as a result of the unfairness of the system. Why should a 08 owner pay €750 when I pay €1500 ?

godtabh

Swanner wrote: »

So based on your argument, you find it unpalatable that you should subsidise me. Why then can I not find it unpalatable that i'm subsiding people who can afford post 08 cars ? What's good for the goose...

Only difference is, I do something about it.

Your not subsiding any body. You aren't paying your share. I pay my share which is subsiding you.

You aren't doing a thing about it. You are illegally deciding what you pay and when you pay it. As some one else pointed out you get the benefits of living in Ireland and don't want to pay for it.

The government decides how much my share is when it comes to motor tax, house hold charge, second home tax, water charges, etc etc. I dont agree with a lot of them and have campaigned against them but I still pay up

The Bishop Basher

Well we'll just go round in circles here. But people on the pre 08 tax regime are subsidising those with post 08 cars. Likewise, those driving bigger engine cars are subsidising those in small engine cars.

If everyone in the country went out tommorrow and bought a 08 1L Micra you would see some very savage hikes in motor tax to compensate.

Read it how you like but we're not going to agree.

Swanner

Swanner wrote: »

535D. It's nothing to do with austerity. I've already said I can afford to pay it. I just choose not to as a result of the unfairness of the system. Why should a 08 owner pay €750 when I pay €1500 ?

How do you feel about making false declarations once or twice a year?

The Bishop Basher

I have no issue with it. I must be morally inept.

godtabh

Swanner wrote: »

Why should a 08 owner pay €750 when I pay €1500 ?

2007 BMW 535d Touring E61 series data CO2 189.00 g/km

2011 BMW 535d CO2 162g/km

That might have something to do with it

Wexfordian

Swanner wrote: »

If everyone in the country went out tommorrow and bought a 08 1L Micra you would see some very savage hikes in motor tax to compensate.

Really? Why? Because maybe the tax take would fall? Same as when people decide not to pay at all?

godtabh

godtabh wrote: »

2007 BMW 535d Touring E61 series data CO2 189.00 g/km

2011 BMW 535d CO2 162g/km

That might have something to do with it

In fairness that has f all to do with it

Rowley Birkin QC

listermint wrote: »

Motor Tax is another Dublin Tax. Plain and simple.

How do you reckon that? I'm from rural North Cork and have been living in Dublin for about 6 years. Have met far more checkpoints around home than in Dublin.

Current tax on my motor is €660, risen to €710 next year. It's a sick amount of money for the standard of our non-motorway roads but I can't be bothered with the potential hassle of not having the car taxed tbh.

Rowley Birkin QC

Rowley Birkin QC wrote: »

How do you reckon that? .........

He comes out with that speel every so often.

godtabh

RoverJames wrote: »

In fairness that has f all to do with it

I know but still had to post it!

Ronnie Beck

awec wrote: »

That wasn't a "you" in reference to you specifically.

There is those who can afford to, but don't and those who can't afford to, but do. The latter are the victims, not of the former, but of the "system".

matt-dublin

Swanner wrote: »

535D. It's nothing to do with austerity. I've already said I can afford to pay it. I just choose not to as a result of the unfairness of the system. Why should a 08 owner pay €750 when I pay €1500 ?

actually its less, 535d emissions are 142g/km which means €390 annually. wheras the same car, with the same engine in 2007 has to pay €1,494.

f_ckin green party started all this tripe.

its the same with property tax/water charges/motor taxes. they're forcing people who have no additional expendible cash to pay something they physically can't pay for. People can't spend money thats not there.

I bought my car two years ago, a 2.0 3 series, 2004. Tax then? something like €590, now €710. petrol then, €1.30, now? €1.60. I could afford my car then, can't really afford it now. Cant sell it because noone will want to buy it and i've no expendible cash to buy something cheaper.

But on top of that, i love my car, its my pride and joy, sure as hell the negative equity apartment i own isnt! Why should i be forced to pay more because of the bailout or because the gonvernment is too wimpy to not pay the bank bonds?????

They're imparting tax upon tax on us? Yes i understand we have our legal obligation to pay, but realistically, pay with what??? We've no F_cking money. no pay rises, no relief on tax, no nothing. wages have remained stagnent for the last 5 years but the cost of living has gone way way way up....

Road Tax... up
petrol... up
property tax... up
prsi... up
interest rates.... up
paye... up
vat... up
gas/electricity... up
insurance... up
bank charges... up
retail goods... up

everything has gone up in the last few years but we're not getting anything back so how are we expected to pay????

matt-dublin

sorry, had a little rant there :P

Valetta

Maybe give up the golf?

matt-dublin

i dont' think so, thats my only bail out! being forced to give up a sport because the government wants me to pay tax directly to them? sounds like that was one of the causes why south county and dublin city closed this year resulting in job losses and less revenue for the government???

Ronnie Beck

Valetta wrote: »

Maybe give up the golf?

What a stupid attitude.

Valetta

Ronnie Beck wrote: »

What a stupid attitude.

Why?

If you can't afford everything you would like, then you have to choose.

matt-dublin

Valetta wrote: »

Why?

If you can't afford anything you like, then you have to choose.

FYP

godtabh

Valetta wrote: »

Why?

If you can't afford everything you would like, then you have to choose.

People have a sense of entitlement. When i got married I gave up drink for a year to help save for the wedding. Didnt need a loan to pay it off so the sacrifice was worth it.

If people are saying they cant afford to pay motor tax but wont give up (sky sports, gym membership, 2 holidays a year etc etc) then I dont think the 2 tier system is as big as problem as people are making it out to be.

matt-dublin

But i don't have sky sports, sky movies, gym membership. The only thing i have is my golf membership. After that im renting a spare room to make ends meet and share bills.

Ronnie Beck

Valetta wrote: »

Why?

If you can't afford everything you would like, then you have to choose.

What's the point in working if you can't drive a nice car and do the things you like. Might aswell sign on, buy a micra and sit at home watching daytime telly.

Dartz

The solution is of course simple.

If you feel so strongly about car tax, report every single goddamn untaxed car you see. Make it your mission to put them off the road..... and then brag to the world that you've hounded people for their tax and see what happens.

Otherwise who cares?

The bike in the shed hasn't been taxed for over a decade.

Ronnie Beck

godtabh wrote: »

People have a sense of entitlement. When i got married I gave up drink for a year to help save for the wedding. Didnt need a loan to pay it off so the sacrifice was worth it.

If people are saying they cant afford to pay motor tax but wont give up (sky sports, gym membership, 2 holidays a year etc etc) then I dont think the 2 tier system is as big as problem as people are making it out to be.

I don't think it's those people who literally can't afford it in fairness. People driving 3.0 litre suburban jeeps don't really count.

you must be some drinker;).

godtabh

Ronnie Beck wrote: »

I don't think it's those people who literally can't afford it in fairness. People driving 3.0 litre suburban jeeps don't really count.

you must be some drinker;).

€100 a weekend over 1.5 years adds up quick!

Supergurrier

You will always find me with a current tax disc, but the prices being ramped up even in the cc system are unfair, if it's an older system why keep raising it when it's already way out of balance. Tax has gone up from €1100 to €1300 in the 2.6 bracket in the last 2 budgets, thats one hell of a hike tbh. Also no i won't buy a polo 1.2 and i do pay my tax so stable them horses thanks.

The way things are moving along a change is needed.

Supergurrier

Supergurrier wrote: »

............

The way things are moving along a change is needed.

No further increases on the cc system is a best case scenario imo, there won't be any change to make 2.0++ stuff taxed on the cc system any cheaper. They'll probably keep increasing it to appease those on the 2008 on rates and to ensure the gulf remains between pre and post 2008 yokes to make newer stuff no less attractive than it is at the moment to tax in relative terms.

A minority (common sense dictates that's what they are ) of motorists drive 2.0++ stuff taxed on the cc system, neither the government or the average Joe in the smaller engined car gives a feck what those rates are

Wexfordian

Look at it this way, every year that passes gets your pre 08 car another year closer to €59 car tax

Indricotherium

Supergurrier wrote: »

You will always find me with a current tax disc, but the prices being ramped up even in the cc system are unfair, if it's an older system why keep raising it when it's already way out of balance. Tax has gone up from €1100 to €1300 in the 2.6 bracket in the last 2 budgets, thats one hell of a hike tbh. Also no i won't buy a polo 1.2 and i do pay my tax so stable them horses thanks.

The way things are moving along a change is needed.

Why should the system bend for your purely discretionary decision to drive a big engine car??

Why don't you change?

Indricotherium

RoverJames wrote: »

A minority (common sense dictates that's what they are ) of motorists drive 2.0++ stuff taxed on the cc system, neither the government or the average Joe in the smaller engined car gives a feck what those rates are

This is it.

No government is going to change policy based on fringe interests, like driving big engined cars is.

They could however make the current <3000cc rate the maximum rate, abolishing the current upper band

They won't though.

hiram

listermint wrote: »

Motor Tax is another Dublin Tax. Plain and simple.

That is the daftest thing I've ever read...what about the other 3 million of us that live outside the pale...we use our cars more than you poor dubs due to the lack if services..

hiram

hiram wrote: »

That is the daftest thing I've ever read...what about the other 3 million of us that live outside the pale...we use our cars more than you poor dubs due to the lack if services..

I honestly think the chap reckons that very few tax their cars "down the country" as there are no checkpoints

It's really a looney theory.

_Kaiser_

Christ.. this thread sums up everything that is wrong with Ireland alright, but not for the reasons some of ye have stated.

- In the "good ole days" we spent our time enviously eyeing up the neighbours new car and playing "my reg is newer than yours" with them

- Nowadays we spend our time checking his tax disc and wondering what else he might be "getting away with" that we're not

- Nowadays all the ones who haven't been affected by the recession (ie: anyone outside the 30-60k bracket, or anyone in the middle-upper civil/public service) sit here looking down their noses at the rest of us who can't afford to just go out and buy a new/er car just to get the "cheap tax"

- The majority then continue to be shafted twice.. first with the higher tax rates for the same cars (because as we all know, this bull about saving the planet/emissions was actually a failed attempt to get everyone out buying new cars to placate the overpriced motor trade), and then with lower trade in values because it doesn't have the "cheap tax"

- Meanwhile our government continues to play one side against the other while pocketing and pissing away a hell of a lot more than the €100m or whatever they're "losing" by tax evasion. Let's not forget either that this money isn't just not being spent on roads, it's not being spent on ANYTHING in this country as it's being exported to keep Angela and Co happy and get the golden boy another "European of the Year award"

But by all means, continue with your petty, futile Irish begrudgery while the real elephant in the room sits there completely ignored

For the record, I always tax my 06 2L Passat on time.. something that'll now cost me €710 a year - actually €800 because I can't afford to just hand over €700 in one go! - and I'll continue to pay it... but I'm feeling more and more like a fool for doing so - not because the guy beside me mightn't have paid his, but because it's a pointless exercise anyway and no-one (compliant person or not) is going to see ANY benefit from it... that's reserved for our "leaders" and their mates.

fits wrote: »

This thread explains why the country is such bad shape. You can't expect good behaviour from politicians, corporations and managers when tax evasion is seen acceptable all levels. You are a citizen, so pay your tax. Lobby the government to change the rules if you're not happy about them.

Yea, cause the government really do listen to the citizens in this country! :rolleyes: Ask the carers how that's working out for them at the moment!

Top Dog

godtabh wrote: »

Your not subsiding any body. You aren't paying your share. I pay my share which is subsiding you.

Ok - you pay your tax and you don't agree with those who don't. I think everyone gets that point.

But wake up and smell the coffee man! If EVERYONE paid their motor tax are you really delusional enough to think that won't go up yet again in next years budget? Like it does every year? Surely you're not that naieve?

nice_guy80

Perfect Choice wrote: »

Motor tax is a Dublin tax.

I cannot count how many checkpoints I have gone through in the past 12 months.

On the other hand, a few friends who work in Cork & Limerick counties have never gone through one in years, and tax their cars accordingly if you know what I mean.

plenty of random checkpoints in the midlands and west
and I don't do that much driving

Backfire

I tax my car. I don't do it because I want to or that I can easily afford it, I do it because I firmly believed that if I didn't, the moment I drive out my driveway I will get caught.

In other words, not willing to take the chance, although I do admire the people that do.

Our man in Havana

Memo to Garda HQ.

Loads of tax evaders on Boards.ie setup more checkpoints.

_Kaiser_

Our man in Havana wrote: »

Memo to Garda HQ.

Loads of tax evaders on Boards.ie setup more checkpoints.

Sure it's grand.. haven't we seen claimed recently (by a Garda no less) that they're also open to a bit of tippex on the records too.

Besides it's getting cold and icy now - won't see them out of the cars/stations in any great numbers till the spring :rolleyes:

Kaiser2000

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

...........

Nowadays all the ones who haven't been affected by the recession (ie: anyone outside the 30-60k bracket, or anyone in the middle-upper civil/public service) sit here looking down their noses at the rest of us who can't afford to just go out and buy a new/er car just to get the "cheap tax"..................

Plenty of people on over 60k/annum have been effected noticeably by the recession, have a look at a tax calculator and see how much USC someone on €65k/annum pays. They're down a right few thousand every year.

Marcusm

Indricotherium wrote: »

Why should the system bend for your purely discretionary decision to drive a big engine car??

Why don't you change?

Just to turn that on its head, why should a larger engined car necessarily attract a higher rate of motor tax?

• Is it due to an inherited bias which suggests that such engines are encased in cars which are somehow "luxuries"? If yes, that tax is better captured at purchase (which it is through higher VRT and VAT).
• If it is an assumption that it produces greater CO2 emissions or consumes greater energy to move it along, surely that is better accounted for through the fuel tax.
• If it relates to environmental or health damage, why is a greater tax not attributed to diesel cars without DPFs or petrol cars without cats (admittedly now a small universe)? Equally, the damage caused in creating a new car may significantly outweigh the maintenance of an older (theoretically) more polluting car.

There's a historic element to the system which was not much challenged in the past but which has come into stark relief due to the inept introduction of the CO2 system which has fed into the whole falsehood of cars built to meet those tests in conditions which are not replicated in the real world.

Within economics/fiscal/tax circles, you'll often hear reference to the "Laffer curve" which deals with consideration of the situation of actual tax revenues with increasing rates (or perceived unfairness). Frankly, it is to be hoped that greater application is given to establishing true levels of motor tax evasion and enforcement so that LV and his staff can give consideration to designing a tax system which drives the greatest level of revenues from the greatest number of people but without the level of evasion which seems to be apparent at the moment.

CrowdedHouse

nice_guy80 wrote: »

plenty of random checkpoints in the midlands and west
and I don't do that much driving

That's odd because I've done approx 40000 Km between work and private this year in Mid West, Midlands and West and I met one checkpoint (Kilcormac Summer evening)

Our man in Havana

CrowdedHouse wrote: »

That's odd because I've done approx 40000 Km between work and private this year in Mid West, Midlands and West and I met one checkpoint (Kilcormac Summer evening)

They are certainly a rarity in the midlands.

augustus gloop

taxed a car for 3 months once, driving in ireland 9 years. got done for tax once. not bragging just saying, i drive every day

CrowdedHouse

Our man in Havana wrote: »

They are certainly a rarity in the midlands.

Yea even the regular one near Borris in Ossory is gone and the aul' speed trap at the Pike of Rushall....sigh...

Our man in Havana

CrowdedHouse wrote: »

Yea even the regular one near Borris in Ossory is gone and the aul' speed trap at the Pike of Rushall....sigh...

That is very close to my place. There has been no action there for at least the last 6 months.

Indricotherium

Marcusm wrote: »

Just to turn that on its head, why should a larger engined car necessarily attract a higher rate of motor tax?

• Is it due to an inherited bias which suggests that such engines are encased in cars which are somehow "luxuries"? If yes, that tax is better captured at purchase (which it is through higher VRT and VAT).
• If it is an assumption that it produces greater CO2 emissions or consumes greater energy to move it along, surely that is better accounted for through the fuel tax.
• If it relates to environmental or health damage, why is a greater tax not attributed to diesel cars without DPFs or petrol cars without cats (admittedly now a small universe)? Equally, the damage caused in creating a new car may significantly outweigh the maintenance of an older (theoretically) more polluting car.

There's a historic element to the system which was not much challenged in the past but which has come into stark relief due to the inept introduction of the CO2 system which has fed into the whole falsehood of cars built to meet those tests in conditions which are not replicated in the real world.

Within economics/fiscal/tax circles, you'll often hear reference to the "Laffer curve" which deals with consideration of the situation of actual tax revenues with increasing rates (or perceived unfairness). Frankly, it is to be hoped that greater application is given to establishing true levels of motor tax evasion and enforcement so that LV and his staff can give consideration to designing a tax system which drives the greatest level of revenues from the greatest number of people but without the level of evasion which seems to be apparent at the moment.

I think in general, which is how you have to legislate, cars with larger engines use more fuel per kilometer.

Reducing the gross amount of fuel used is something all governments are trying to do. A good way of doing that is to discourage people from driving less efficient cars.