Very disappointed in Lucan TD's for not voting against Social Welfare Bill

average_runner

While this is a bill that doesnt affect me, I am very disappointed in the Lucan TD's of Labour and FG. This government was meant to represent a time of change, pity this isnt true.

Shame on ye and my vote will not be for ye anymore.

stoneill

I'm disappointed, but not surprised. I half expected Derek Keating to vote against, but then, well he on the gravy train now and probably wont jeopardise that.

Heroditas

stoneill wrote: »

I'm disappointed, but not surprised. I half expected Derek Keating to vote against, but then, well he on the gravy train now and probably wont jeopardise that.

He's running out of parties to join.

emo72

sent an email to him after the budget, telling him how angry i was. he didnt respond. is he gone to ground? representing locals is he? id love to know who he represents now. i'll tell you, Fine Gael and himself.

lord lucan

emo72 wrote: »

he didnt respond. is he gone to ground?

Probably out on a photoshoot at a local playground or at the opening of an envelope.

Eric The Great

My sources tell me that Mr Keating was involved in a verbal altercation with some tax payers in a hostelry in the Chapelizod area one evening before Christmas, word is that this "man of the people", originally from the Ballyfermot area likes to drink beer there on occasion.

Apparently his reaction to some pointed questions from said tax payers was to loudly request their removal from his presence from the barman....

"I only came here for a quiet pint, it's not my fault that finelabour are screwing all you serfs".

I am told that after a short while not feeling the love he left and has not returned since, much to the chagrin of said tax payers who were looking forward to discussing the finer points of the latest austerity budget and indeed his much publicized views on the links between pre marital sex and welfare cheats.

So it's presumably back to the subsidized DAIL bar for Mr Keating where he can drink cheap pints with like minded individuals and
not have to engage the public under the affluence of inkahol.

Hotblack Desiato

In fairness I don't think it's on to be hassling politicians when they're out with friends or family. They're entitled to a quiet pint or whatever like anyone else.
This isn't (yet) like the UK where policians/celebrities can't step outside their front door without the risk of getting hassled.

Heroditas

ninja900 wrote: »

In fairness I don't think it's on to be hassling politicians when they're out with friends or family. They're entitled to a bit of decency.
This isn't (yet) like the UK where policians/celebrities can't step outside their front door without the risk of getting hassled.

Agreed. It's not on.
There are proper ways of voicing your disapproval in the form of emails or letters, not giving someone stick when they're trying to have a quiet drink.

average_runner

Eric The Great wrote: »

My sources tell me that Mr Keating was involved in a verbal altercation with some tax payers in a hostelry in the Chapelizod area one evening before Christmas, word is that this "man of the people", originally from the Ballyfermot area likes to drink beer there on occasion.

Apparently his reaction to some pointed questions from said tax payers was to loudly request their removal from his presence from the barman....

"I only came here for a quiet pint, it's not my fault that finelabour are screwing all you serfs".

I am told that after a short while not feeling the love he left and has not returned since, much to the chagrin of said tax payers who were looking forward to discussing the finer points of the latest austerity budget and indeed his much publicized views on the links between pre marital sex and welfare cheats.

So it's presumably back to the subsidized DAIL bar for Mr Keating where he can drink cheap pints with like minded individuals and
not have to engage the public under the affluence of inkahol.

Don't think people should be hassling the man when with his family or friends. Every one is entitled to some down time and just relax.

emo72

average_runner wrote: »

Don't think people should be hassling the man when with his family or friends. Every one is entitled to some down time and just relax.

In fairness he is gone to ground. I sent him an email before Christmas and he never replied. Obviously not answering the questions I put to him in a polite manner. If i had the chance to speak to him i would take it. It's well for him that he has the money to socialise. Lot of unemployed people in lucan have no such money. If he hangs on till April his pension for life is sorted.

Heroditas

emo72 wrote: »

In fairness he is gone to ground. I sent him an email before Christmas and he never replied. Obviously not answering the questions I put to him in a polite manner. If i had the chance to speak to him i would take it. It's well for him that he has the money to socialise. Lot of unemployed people in lucan have no such money. If he hangs on till April his pension for life is sorted.

I'm very surprised that he hasn't replied.
I don't like the guy at all but have heard/found that he will always find time to reply to any queries or emails sent by constituents. I wonder if there has been some sort of gagging order placed on the TDs by the party.
Either that or he has a mound of emails that he's working his way through!

mr j tayto

"I half expected Derek Keating to vote against, but then, well he on the gravy train now and probably wont jeopardise that."

Every one of them is on said gravy train. Keating is no different from the rest; i.e;
Im all right Jack.

average_runner

emo72 wrote: »

In fairness he is gone to ground. I sent him an email before Christmas and he never replied. Obviously not answering the questions I put to him in a polite manner. If i had the chance to speak to him i would take it. It's well for him that he has the money to socialise. Lot of unemployed people in lucan have no such money. If he hangs on till April his pension for life is sorted.

I got his Xmas email only yesterday, so there could be a problem with his email. In fairness to him he usual does reply quickly.

wanderlass

No,in fairness to him, he doesn't always reply.In fact I wrote to him prior to the last election badly needing help with an issue,which of course I shouldn't have had to do.He never replied.I asked him again and he said he was sorry, send the mail again.No word.Again I wrote and it was "oh I always reply,don't know what happened". Of course the truth was that in my case he didn't" always reply".He did nothing for me in the end despite all the promises.That was a few months before the election.
Two nights before the election day,the bold Derek rings me on the number that he asked for and was given when he was going to so called help me."Will you give me your vote" says he.Hold on, what about the broken promises.I then got the "I swear I''l help you if you help get me elected" stuff and like a gob****e I believed him.Did I ever get the help?Not a bit of it.Fool me once.......

As for harassment when socialising.I'd give him both barrels no matter where he was and until such time as these people get to know that there is a price to pay when you lie and break election 'promises' they will keep doing it.That money he was drinking with was given to him by us,based on promises and commitments which were all broken.I could almost forget about the austerity thing because of F.F and Europe but the promises to end the cronyism and fiddling and political strokes were all binned and never was there a better example of jobs for the boys when,within a few weeks of the election, his F.G colleague Councillor Lavelle who was given a part time position in Frances Fitzgerald's set up.Lavelle is an architect and he getting a job in the Dept Of Children or whatever it is called?? No interviews for that job.What qualifications has he got that no one else has that made him such a shoo in ? When he and Keating were asked about this no reply.

So to be fair to him, he doesn't always reply.

Eric The Great

Deputy Keating has indeed gone to ground, has not been seen in Chapelizod or its environs since losing (badly) the political debate initiated by said irate tax payer.

In my opinion Mr Keating being a fully paid up, card carrying member of FG, with all of the attached remuneration including salary, expenses, pension entitlements etc, has separated himself completely from the working people of this Country.

Along with the likes of hogan, shatter, varadkar, kenny, noonan et al, note I don't mention the labour party sheep here.......his one and only goal during the life of this administration is to close the fiscal deficit in whatever way possible, short of course of impinging on his own quality of life, obviously, to please the european banking elite.

If this is the road he has decided on for his own and his familys future well being, then he should at least have the good grace and common sense to socialise within his new found peer group.

Someone mentioned in an earlier note that we had not yet become the UK and politicians should have the freedom to come and go as they please. I disagree.

The arrogance of the bunch named above and the continuing austerity policies they promote almost guarantees that they will be the target of vitriol if not outright abuse should they unwittingly stray in to the domain of the downtrodden working man, to do so with brazen abandon as in the case of Deputy Keating, can only be construed as taking the p**s.

emo72

did anyone hear Olivia O Learys podcast speech on rte drivetime on tuesday evening? she lashed into FG for all the promises they broke.

Hotblack Desiato

Eric The Great wrote: »

Deputy Keating has indeed gone to ground, has not been seen in Chapelizod or its environs since losing (badly) the political debate initiated by said irate tax payer.

Getting shouted at in a pub isn't debate.

The arrogance of the bunch named above and the continuing austerity policies they promote almost guarantees that they will be the target of vitriol if not outright abuse should they unwittingly stray in to the domain of the downtrodden working man, to do so with brazen abandon as in the case of Deputy Keating, can only be construed as taking the p**s.

There's nothing stopping anyone from going down to his clinic if they really want to talk to him. Most politicians have these on a Saturday morning, easier to talk tough after a few pints on Friday night like our hero here though isn't it.

wanderlass

"There's nothing stopping anyone from going down to his clinic if they really want to talk to him. Most politicians have these on a Saturday morning, easier to talk tough after a few pints on Friday night like our hero here though isn't it."

I talked to him with no drink and it didn't do any good.If a politician lies to you on your doorstep,to his own neighbours,what makes you think that talking to him in his clinic will do any good?If they are sent to media training,directly and indirectly paid for by you and me,do you really believe that 'talking nice' to him will make a difference? Do you believe when Eamon Gilmore gave the not a red cent to Europe speech and then reneged on it,that he would care what you have to say in his clinic.When Joanna Tuffy came to my doorstep looking for the vote for the Fiscal Treaty referendum I confronted her about broken promises by her party.Did it make a difference?

Finally,what evidence do you have that the person who confronted Keating had drink taken other than it took place in a pub, and even if there was drink taken,why the innuendo and implied slur that says that the person tackling Keating needed drink to "talk tough"? If you are up against practiced liars, bull****ters and speech makers,then you take the fight to the ground that gives you some advantage or at least makes it level.A politicians clinic is certainly not that.

Hotblack Desiato

wanderlass wrote: »

I talked to him with no drink and it didn't do any good.

So don't vote for him then.

Do you believe when Eamon Gilmore gave the not a red cent to Europe speech

No because it was a stupid promise to make, he was never going to be able to keep it, especially as the smaller party going into a coalition
Politicians use stupid slogans and soundbites and outlandish promises because they work. In other words, a large proportion of the electorate will vote for whoever tells them what they want to hear (why is FF going up in the polls?)

Finally,what evidence do you have that the person who confronted Keating had drink taken other than it took place in a pub

Because they were in a pub, and decided to confront someone else who wasn't with their party and was minding their own business. That's just thuggish behaviour. Perhaps they're thuggish even with no drink on board, but that's hardly a good thing either.
I hope the pub barred that person for life.

If you are up against practiced liars, bull****ters and speech makers,then you take the fight to the ground that gives you some advantage or at least makes it level.A politicians clinic is certainly not that.

That's what clinics are for, for voters to bring up issues concerning them.
There's also the phone, letters... a lot of pols aren't great at answering emails but letters carry a lot more weight (as anyone complaining to a business will tell you)
But basically if you don't like him or the party he belongs to, just don't vote for him. If enough people think the same as you then he'll be out of a job.

wanderlass

ninja900,this could go on indefinitely ,so let me say the following and be done with it.

Firstly,if you were in the said pub when the alleged spat took place,say so and tell us what went on.If not which I suspect is the case,then I suggest as I have said,that you are making an awful lot of assumptions which probably say more about you than the person involved.How do you know that the person hadn't just walked into the pub and saw Derek Keating and let fly.Maybe they were just ordering their first drink? Maybe they were only on the first drink? Maybe they weren't drinking? Why stereotype the person by assuming that they needed drink to talk tough? Might it not be better,instead of categorising their behaviour as being "thuggish"(again no evidence) and hoping that they were barred for life(oh dear), you might ask what had happened in the life of that person to make them so angry, and angry enough that they would confront Mr Keating when they had probably gone to the pub,like most, for a bit of entertainment and not to get in a heated debate? There are a lot of things that Derek Keating could be accused of and minding his own business is not one of them.

When on the so called 'campaign trail', Derek Keating along with every other politician has no problem going into pubs,clubs,parks,creches,indeed anywhere they can, looking for votes.They are happy to buy drinks,take the back slapping,the glad handling,and all the hoo ha that goes with it but according to you,when they then get into power,renege on their word,steal and lie to the citizens of the country,should not be confronted in these same pubs?? Instead we should "write" to them nicely,discuss things in their clinics? Which leads me to ask what politicians you have voted for.Either they never got into power or are some form of angel.Most of the electorate during election time have to figure out who is lying the least and then vote and if we want to vote, they are the conditions we vote under.Politicians don't say stupid things before elections.They say very very clever albeit dishonest things prior to elections to get votes.They reserve their stupidity for after they are elected.

Isn't it interesting that the garlic man, as he became known,Mr Begley, defrauded the state out of revenue,was caught and despite paying the money back, got jail(and rightly so).Meanwhile Mr Keating defrauded the state out of money in his expense claim,got caught,paid it back but didn't even get arrested never mind charged? And the guy who confronted him in a pub,is,according to you,engaged in thuggish behaviour.The thuggish behaviour is well practiced by politicians just better disguised.

I didn't vote for Derek Keating.I knew better.But he didn't know that when he promised to help me and then didn't.

You talk of writing to politicians as anyone "complaining to a business will tell you".Really? What business man would survive unmolested either emotionally,mentally or physically if they sold a service or a product under false pretences as politicians do? Did writing to her local politicians help Susie Long? People are writing and talking to their local politicians all over this country and to no avail.A number of years ago,I got very sick.Sick enough to be unable to work and to be put on a regime of medicine.I was given a medical card.One of the tablets was,at that time,€58 and some cents.One tablet ! Other items prescribed by the hospital were of the supplement nature and I knew from previous lifetimes,that what was being prescribed was a rubbish brand and would cause more side effects than good.When I talked to the consultant about this,he told me off the record that the brand was being prescribed because a deal was done with the drug company.I also needed certain therapy and if I was waiting for the HSE to provide it I'd still be waiting.
Because I was very very lucky in that
A- I had some small savings
B- That I knew about certain stuff
I bought my own supplements and paid for my own therapy,eating into the few savings as I did so.As a result of this and the fact that I didn't haunt the doctor's surgery every week,there being no point,and didn't abuse the medical card,the cost to the state dropped considerably.My partner then changed jobs and we were then literally €3 over the guidelines.I lost the medical card.When I appealed this and actually got talking to the so called 'appeals officer' who withdrew my card,I was told straight out that €3 was not a big deal but that the card was withdrawn because I didn't use it enough.I didn't run up enough money on it ! Had I needed more visits to the doctor and/or more drugs, they would give it to me.Ridiculous but true.Despite all the receipts provided and evidence of how I had saved them money,my medical card was cancelled.I wrote to Mr Keating,I spoke to Mr Keating,very very nicely.That I didn't get the card back was actually neither here nor there.I wouldn't want it if someone else who was worse off needed one and was denied maybe because I took the money allocated.What the problem was that he said he would help,gave his word blah blah and never did.I didn't need drink on me to let him know what I thought and if I can help in any way to get him out of power, I will.
Interesting enough, the tablet that was €58 and is now nearer to €45 can be got for me by friends who visit Spain,for €20.So guess where I buy my drugs and break the law? Will I get jail if caught? And more relevant who's making all the money??

Finally,there is an expression in the French language which when translated roughly says "We hurt people's feelings and then criticise them for crying".The essence being that the victim ends up in the wrong.This man/woman in the pub hauled off Derek Keating after all the lies and dishonesty he and his government have partaken in and he is the thuggish one? The government saddle us with unfair taxes whilst continuing to pay themselves more than most other European politicians and when we complain, we are accused of not wanting to pay taxes,not understanding and generally being wrong.Phil Hogan and his merry band were off in Doha at an environment conference at great expense whilst we have to pay a €3.5million fine and a daily fine of €7,000 to Europe for not implementing pollution related procedures and the people are wrong to complain?

As I have said,this could go on and on, but I have said enough on this subject.Whoever the politician or whatever political system you support,good luck to you with it but I hope you never get really sick,hope you never need the intervention of a politician to get what you are probably entitled anyway.You might find that writing your letter might not do you much good.If God forbid, things get really bad for you,like they are for so many who are going hungry and are sick,even in Lucan, as I write this,you might find yourself with more in common with the man in the pub in Chapelizod than you care to consider today.

Hotblack Desiato

I'm going to just reply to one sentence, I didn't and won't read any further.

wanderlass wrote: »

How do you know that the person hadn't just walked into the pub and saw Derek Keating and let fly.

Anyone who sees someone in a pub, minding their own business, and starts an argument with them is an arsehole who does not deserve to live in civilised society. End of. I don't want to have to listen to arseholes starting rows when I'm out for a drink, do you?

celticman55

I have just been told about this discussion by someone who knew that I was actually in the pub in question when this heated debate took place and would like to say the following and after that I will have no more to say as I have just joined this site in order to set some things straight.
Firstly I have no connection to either of the two involved in the debate in question nor do I know anyone here(that I know of,pseudonyms being used).
No one "started an argument" and no one was "minding their own business" in the way that 'ninja900' likes to portray the roles that he/she thinks both people played.Initially there was give and take and if anyone could be said to have "lost", it was Mr Keating,simply for the reason that he had more grounds for losing and for another reason I will come to.Arguments and heated discussions like the one that took place happen quite regularly in pubs especially about politics and religion and that is why I was told from my early days drinking,not to discuss either of these topics in a pub and why I didn't get involved in this particular debate.
The poster called Eric The Great was quite accurate when he said that there were pointed questions asked of Mr Keating.Should they have been asked in that environment? Who knows? I can see both sides of that argument presented above.But Mr Keating chose to reply.He certainly didn't ask to be "left alone" etc,he got involved and there was definitely no sense of victimhood.There was also emphatically no case of

"Anyone who sees someone in a pub, minding their own business, and starts an argument with them is an arsehole who does not deserve to live in civilised society. End of. I don't want to have to listen to arseholes starting rows when I'm out for a drink, do you?" as portrayed by ninja900.

Initially as I say,there was give and take in the question and answer session and all was typical of some pub discussions, but when it did go pear shaped, it was clearly because
A- Mr Keating couldn't justify the taxes etc and because of the broken promises(and no one can deny that there were broken commitments regardless of the simplistic version put forward by ninja900)
B- Seeing the normal political rhetoric was not working,Mr Keating did as so many in the past have done when losing debates,wanted someone to make it right for him i.e throw the other person out

It ended shortly after when the barman asked for it to stopped and shortly after again,Mr Keating left,rather chastened as any person would who had been party to a wrong done and attempted to defend it.

So ends my neutrality.Before I go, a few comments

Whilst I can see where 'wanderlass' might certainly have a grievance with Mr Keating,I fail to see where 'ninja900' gets the anger from for a subject that didn't effect him/her in any way as he/she wasn't there(or he/she would have said so?) unless he/she is connected in some way to Mr Keating,or failing that,has some personal unhappy experience of a row in a pub.I mean why talk continually of arseholes and barring people for starting arguments when there is no evidence that this is what happened.Having been there,it is also amusing to see Mr Keating being depicted as some victim when the truth is that he and indeed most politicians are rarely if ever victims and in this instance he had an opportunity to not get involved but chose to do so.Probably because he felt as I said that his political rhetoric and experience would get him out of it.

'ninja900' also says in reply to 'wanderlass' that he/she didn't and wasn't going to read the whole post by 'wanderlass'.Really?

But perhaps an answer to ninja900's structure of thinking might be found in this statement from a previous and recent post of theirs where it was said and I quote

" It's widely accepted that the most incorrigible, difficult, uncontrollable, unstable, psychotic, whatever, priests and religious were usually sent off to 'the missions' to avoid scandal at home"

Regardless of how one feels about the Catholic Church and I am no lover, this is a highly amusing belief(maybe even that of an arsehole) to hold not to mention the fact that it is believed by ninja900 to be "widely accepted" ! Where?

Hotblack Desiato

Right so you claim to have just joined, yet go trawling in totally unrelated threads in totally unrelated forums to try and bolster your argument :rolleyes: dear oh dear

Look if you think that politicians and public figures are fair game whereever they go, that's your view. I disagree.

Post reported for personal attack.

Zaph

wanderlass, celticman55 and Janrey (wanderlass' original account) all sitebanned for sockpuppeting.

Heroditas

Seems like this descended into a case of someone with a personal axe to grind.

Hotblack Desiato

I hope you don't mean me, H :pac:

I just don't think it does our society any good to adopt the worst aspects of UK tabloid culture, in other words public figures go from adulation to vilification seemingly at random, and are subject to being photographed and/or harassed everywhere they go.

I think and hope we're better than that in this country, but the huge number of people reading rags like the Star, 'Irish' Sun, etc. does not inspire.

It's all very well to give out stink about politicians, but that won't change anything. They didn't elect themselves.

If they feed us half-truths and palaver, it's because it works. The Irish electorate consistently and repeatedly votes for people who tell them what they want to hear, irrespective of them being corrupt, liars, ex- or not so ex-terrorists, or whatever.

In a democracy you really do get the class of politicians you deserve.

I'm not very impressed by DK personally, he can't be bothered his hole campaigning around Clondalkin at all, it's his constituency all right, but not 'his turf' it's Frances Fitzgerald's. I did give him a preference last time but I'm not so sure I will next time.

Heroditas

ninja900 wrote: »

I'm not very impressed by DK personally, he can't be bothered his hole campaigning around Clondalkin at all, it's his constituency all right, but not 'his turf' it's Frances Fitzgerald's. I did give him a preference last time but I'm not so sure I will next time.

I haven't seen Dowds or Tuffy in Lucan at all since the election!
Talk about the politicians sticking to their own patches.

You're completely right though about the tabloid culture.
Whatever about disagreeing with political parties' policies, it's just wrong to confront politicians in their free time. As you said, there are clinics for that, along with plenty of public meetings and events. People seem to think they own these people.
I'll counter that by saying that there are a few politicians who seem to have an awfully high opinion of themselves.

Evilsbane

Does anyone reckon that sometimes political parties will pay people to go online, start various accounts, and then try to give the public the impression that there is huge public dissatisfaction with the other party? Boards seems to be swamped with people who use the most emotive rhetoric possible.

Heroditas

Evilsbane wrote: »

Does anyone reckon that sometimes political parties will pay people to go online, start various accounts, and then try to give the public the impression that there is huge public dissatisfaction with the other party? Boards seems to be swamped with people who use the most emotive rhetoric possible.

No, political parties are quite capable of putting their collective foot in it without their opponents wasting money by paying people to go online and stir up opposition.

Emotive rhetoric works, hence why we have the types of politician we do.

Miss Lockhart

Heroditas wrote: »

I haven't seen Dowds or Tuffy in Lucan at all since the election!
Talk about the politicians sticking to their own patches.

Tuffy is based in Lucan isn't she?

Heroditas

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

Tuffy is based in Lucan isn't she?

Yep, she sure is but she keeps an awfully low profile.