Another mass shooting in the U.S

Ugh.

Seriously. Why do people have this conversation always? It was the same thing in the Dark Knight Rises shooting. It was the same thing in the shooting before that. And the shooting before that.

I get it, you are all well-versed in these gun related subjects. Now stop. You're all starting to sound like broken records.

Drakares

Deleted User wrote: »

If someone goes into a kindergarten class to kill as many as possible it won't make a huge difference if they're armed with a gun, a knife or a baseball bat. .

If someone walks into my house with a baseball bat I'd shove it up their arse.

Of course it makes a difference..

steve9859

Killer Wench wrote: »

This isn't solely about gun rights. It is about individual rights protected by our Constitution. We are fanatical about our Constitutional rights and as a lawyer, I am okay with that.

No, thats an excuse. Its about a culture of gun ownership and use of guns without thinking. Tightening up gun laws will not stop these events in the next few years, but it is the first small step in starting to change the culture which worsens with each event like this, as people arm themselves as a 'defence'. I mean, arming teachers has been suggested....Christ!!!

TBH i'm pretty disgusted by people who don't recognise that current gun law contributes to the gun culture

(and I lived in the US for 5 years, so I am not speaking as an 'ignorant' European who does not understand the importance of the Constitution)

This hopefully will change the politics and force the issue

repsol

Deleted User wrote: »

Ugh.

Seriously. Why do people have this conversation always? It was the same thing in the Dark Knight Rises shooting. It was the same thing in the shooting before that. And the shooting before that.

I get it, you are all well-versed in these gun related subjects. Now stop. You're all starting to sound like broken records.

Don't read it so.:D

feargale

Killer Wench wrote: »

This isn't solely about gun rights. It is about individual rights protected by our Constitution. We are fanatical about our Constitutional rights and as a lawyer, I am okay with that.

Constitutions are not written in stone. They can be amended. Mores and circumstances change, and in normal societies laws and constitutions develop to accomodate those changes. The British, at least, recognise that, despite living with the illusion of a constitution. Different people attribute different qualities, good and bad, to lawyers. This is the first time I have seen the words fanatical and lawyer in the same sentence.

Killer Wench

Within the American jurist community, there are many different approaches to how to interpret the Constitution. It is not simply that one says that the Constitution should change because society changes. The majority of the SCOTUS are either originalists (meaning one reviews the Constitution to discover the original intent) or strict constuctionists (meaning following the Constitution based upon its text); in contrast, the minority is composed of individuals who believe in the living document (meaning it evolves and grows like a living organism). It isn't simply that it is 2012 and things should change; it is that many, many within the judicial branches do not believe that the Constitution should be changed or misinterpreted from its original meaning and text.

They literally ( I mean literally) argued over a comma.

“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”
.

Because of the comma after "State", there were two interpretations:

"A well regulated Militia... shall not be infringed."

or

"The right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


It's nice and fuzzy to talk about changing the Constitution, but when the jurist community is so deeply divided over the grammatical purpose of a comma, things get complicated. Again, we are fanatical about our Constitution and the individual rights protected in it.

Manic Moran

Deleted User wrote: »

Ugh.

Seriously. Why do people have this conversation always? It was the same thing in the Dark Knight Rises shooting. It was the same thing in the shooting before that. And the shooting before that.

I get it, you are all well-versed in these gun related subjects. Now stop. You're all starting to sound like broken records.

I presume you are referring to both sides of the argument, the emotional 'guns should be banned' ones, and the less emotional 'well, actually, in the real United States in which we live...'

Case in point:

I mean, arming teachers has been suggested....Christ!!!

Why not?

Really, what is the rational argument why not?

Is there some force field which surrounds schools which prohibits people bringing firearms into schools? Do you suggest that schools should become fortified zones, surrounded by barbed wire, guard towers and airport-style metal detectors and X-rays to turn them into a sterile zone?

Given that a large number of teachers are licensed to be armed off school property, do they suddenly turn into dangerous people when they are giving class? I entrust my child entirely to her teachers. I fully expect that every day she returns home to me safe, protected as best as possible against every possible ill which could befall her, from not falling off museum exhibits on the school trip, to not getting food poisoning, through not getting burned in a fire if one starts at the school. For better or worse, shootings are a known hazard in the US, and I want my kid's school to have a mitigation plan against that which is a bit better than cowering in a corner and hoping that the police get to my daughter before the gunman does.

My old platoon sergeant is now a schoolteacher. I know how he reacts under fire, and I know he's a good shot. His carrying a .45 is probably a better insurance of the safety of his wards than a panic alarm and active shooter drill.

NTM

B.A._Baracus

Deleted User wrote: »

You get that in almost every country. Even Ireland.

Boney,
I dont think you really understand the article I posted.... first time on record there wasnt a serious crime committed in New York over the course of 24 hours. Thats in the history of new york. Thats past to present. Including the massive crime rate new york has known of the past ...

No rape. No murder. No kidnapping. etc etc.
Its really retarded to compare Ireland to New York on this matter. But its even more retarded to not realise that such things are common place... thats its an event when such things don't happen over the course of a day that it makes news.

justaskin likeyakno

Right, I,m just back from a party...I,m currently in US, spoke to a guy who insists the gun laws are ok because the crimes are committed by folks with illegally held firearms, he,s a hunter and says it,s every Americans right to defend his family and home and they should not be judged by the few scum who go out and kill innocent victims.

wonderfullife

Manic Moran wrote: »

Why not?

Really, what is the rational argument why not?

Is there some force field which surrounds schools which prohibits people bringing firearms into schools? Do you suggest that schools should become fortified zones, surrounded by barbed wire, guard towers and airport-style metal detectors and X-rays to turn them into a sterile zone?

Given that a large number of teachers are licensed to be armed off school property, do they suddenly turn into dangerous people when they are giving class? I entrust my child entirely to her teachers. I fully expect that every day she returns home to me safe, protected as best as possible against every possible ill which could befall her, from not falling off museum exhibits on the school trip, to not getting food poisoning, through not getting burned in a fire if one starts at the school. For better or worse, shootings are a known hazard in the US, and I want my kid's school to have a mitigation plan against that which is a bit better than cowering in a corner and hoping that the police get to my daughter before the gunman does.

My old platoon sergeant is now a schoolteacher. I know how he reacts under fire, and I know he's a good shot. His carrying a .45 is probably a better insurance of the safety of his wards than a panic alarm and active shooter drill.

NTM

This ^ is ridiculous. Guns have no place in school. Teachers aren't cops or soldiers. Instead of sorting out the gun laws you suggest bringing more guns to a workplace. Weird and warped country at times, for all that i love the country, there's some really anachronistic widely held beliefs over there. Gun ownership, death penalty, .....21st century nation transfixed by 18th century documents.

Killer Wench

wonderfullife wrote: »

.....21st century nation transfixed by 18th century documents.

Fascinating... shall we talk about abortion?

Aciiiiiiiiiiid

I'm shocked at how much emphasis is being placed in this thread on US gun laws. If this guy hadn't access to guns he would have just made a bomb or something. does anyone think without gun access he would have just went on with life as normal. No. How about focusing instead on why people feel the desire to murder 20 children and address that. Identifying and intervening early in people with mental health issues. Serious, all this gun talk is irrelevant.

justaskin likeyakno

Aciiiiiiiiiiid wrote: »

I'm shocked at how much emphasis is being placed in this thread on US gun laws. If this guy hadn't access to guns he would have just made a bomb or something. does anyone think without gun access he would have just went on with life as normal. No. How about focusing instead on why people feel the desire to murder 20 children and address that. Identifying and intervening early in people with mental health issues. Serious, all this gun talk is irrelevant.

Perfect opinion, I just couldn't,t articulate it.

Manic Moran

wonderfullife wrote: »

This ^ is ridiculous. Guns have no place in school. Teachers aren't cops or soldiers. Instead of sorting out the gun laws you suggest bringing more guns to a workplace. Weird and warped country at times, for all that i love the country, there's some really anachronistic widely held beliefs over there. Gun ownership, death penalty, .....21st century nation transfixed by 18th century documents.

Then what is your rational, practical, realistic proposed alternative?

Don't handwave and rant about how guns have no place in school. Obviously this is not a unanimously held opinion as a certain individual in Connecticut demonstrated this morning. Neither is the thought that teachers should not be in firefights. A number were in one this morning, and didn't come out too well from the exchange.

Give me a solution which can be implemented in the 50 States which will provide a better chance of children in schools surviving in an environment which is conducive to their better education.

wonderfullife

The reporting by american news outlets and Sky News has been a DISGRACE today.

1. Shooter named Ryan Lanza by "sources". Not verified but still put on the air as fact.

Real shooter: Adam Lanza.....Ryan was in work FFS how hard would it have been for someone to check that. He works for feckin Ernst & Young!

2. Father killed by shooter in separate incident.

No, father also in work at Ernst & Young. Alive.

3. Mother a teacher at the school in question and shot in the classroom.

No, apparently now she was shot in the face at home. Not even a teacher according to friends of the family but a volunteer.


What is the rush to name and shame the "shooter"? What good can it possibly do anybody to know his name so quickly? It won't bring back the dead and once the shooter is dead there is no man-hunt needed. It's a disgrace they can report as FACT on their Breaking News Ticker the wrong name in this manner.

long range shooter

jaykay74 wrote: »

No one managed to kill 27 I see....

Thats not the point,its not the knife or pistol that kills,its the man behind it:rolleyes:

justaskin likeyakno

How did the kid get into the school, as an aunt of the child I,m currently looking after, I can,t pick him up from school unless I was authorized and and had my passport.

Killer Wench

Manic Moran wrote: »

Give me a solution which can be implemented in the 50 States which will provide a better chance of children in schools surviving in an environment which is conducive to their better education.

Wait... your solution is to arm the teachers?

Killer Wench

justaskin likeyakno wrote: »

How did the kid get into the school, as an aunt of the child I,m currently looking after, I can,t pick him up from school unless I was authorized and and had my passport.

This was a small city with 28,000 people. The shooter was the son of a teacher and he probably went to that school when he was a child. I imagine that the office saw that it was Ms. So and So's son and they lowered their guard.

long range shooter

justaskin likeyakno wrote: »

How did the kid get into the school, as an aunt of the child I,m currently looking after, I can,t pick him up from school unless I was authorized and and had my passport.

The day i have to bring id to pick up my children in school,willn be the day when i get a private teacher to come to my house instead;)

EdenHazard

Why are these shooters always the same type of people? Weird outcast types. They then get inspiration from shooters who came before them who are built up as anti-heroes. I bet this dude was 'fascinated by Colombine' and 'idolized eric harris and dylan klebold.' Its a cultural thing but also a matter of size of the country.



R.I.P to the victims

NIMAN

They tend to be loners, and see this as a chance to see their name up in lights perhaps? A hard life with no friends, sitting at home playing videogames all your life? Never had a girlfriend or socially inept?

Back to that Charlie Brooker Screenwipe piece about these people becoming famous for their action.

Piliger

Aciiiiiiiiiiid wrote: »

I'm shocked at how much emphasis is being placed in this thread on US gun laws. If this guy hadn't access to guns he would have just made a bomb or something. does anyone think without gun access he would have just went on with life as normal. No. How about focusing instead on why people feel the desire to murder 20 children and address that. Identifying and intervening early in people with mental health issues. Serious, all this gun talk is irrelevant.

This is nonsense. Firstly you don't even know what his motive was. You don't know what his mental condition was. You don't know a damn thing about him or his family.

So you are in no position to say what he would have done or not done.

Many people become mentally ill, temporarily or permanently. They also get upset and do bad things out of anger, resentment and rage.

The reason why the emphasis is on the insane gun laws in the US is because when people do suffer from any of these events in the US, they can so easily get hold of a gun and do awful things. They can buy them in gun shops, or in gun fairs out of town and out of state where the checks are almost non existent.

In ireland and the UK however it is far far harder for an ordinary person to get a hold of any kind of a gun, never mind that kind of ammunition. And there have been many documented cases here when people have become deranged in this country, and have gone out to do damage. But when people here experience the same kind of crisis they are severely limited in their options to do damage. Usually it is a knife or a car or at the most extreme end, an old hand gun and a handful of bullets.

The Gun Law in the US is at the centre of this issue.

wonderfullife

Manic Moran wrote: »

Then what is your rational, practical, realistic proposed alternative?

Don't handwave and rant about how guns have no place in school. Obviously this is not a unanimously held opinion as a certain individual in Connecticut demonstrated this morning. Neither is the thought that teachers should not be in firefights. A number were in one this morning, and didn't come out too well from the exchange.

Give me a solution which can be implemented in the 50 States which will provide a better chance of children in schools surviving in an environment which is conducive to their better education.

Nationwide ban on legal ownership of any semi-automatic weapon, limits on the legal amount of ammo purchasable, mandatory psychiatric evaluation before getting a gun license. Start there.

And yes, yawn, people can still kill people with less powerful guns or knives or they can make bombs as someone above suggested. The difference is it's infinitely harder for someone to mass-murder with a knife and making a bomb is a lot more difficult than handing over some cash for powerful guns and ammo.

Making it more difficult for nutters to mass-murder people is a good step. If you all truly believe it's your right to defend yourselves with guns, fine, but you don't need semi-automatic weapons to do so unless you're being attacked by a herd of elephants or a tank.

long range shooter

EdenHazard wrote: »

Why are these shooters always the same type of people? Weird outcast types.

Good point
Ask the society why,dont blame the gun laws;)

EdenHazard

NIMAN wrote: »

They tend to be loners, and see this as a chance to see their name up in lights perhaps? A hard life with no friends, sitting at home playing videogames all your life? Never had a girlfriend or socially inept?

Back to that Charlie Brooker Screenwipe piece about these people becoming famous for their action.

That's it.

Rodin

long range shooter wrote: »

Good point
Ask the society why,dont blame the gun laws;)

interestingtly, the chinese guy had a knife. No gun. And nobody died.
The US needs meaningful gun control

EdenHazard

long range shooter wrote: »

Good point
Ask the society why,dont blame the gun laws;)

I think I agree with you here. Long winded debates about gun laws completely miss the point. A (i can't think of word) but a glorification by the media of these school shootings mixed with freaks of nature who have been outcasts is the reason these acts occur sporadically.
I notice people on here don't really tend to touch on this issue of the types of people who commit these acts. They always tend to be real intelligent and odd and have strange interests for people their age. But your not allowed to say that It doesn't fit in with people's view of a scumbag. Instead they are mentally ill and weren't helped in time.

Aciiiiiiiiiiid

Piliger wrote: »

This is nonsense. Firstly you don't even know what his motive was. You don't know what his mental condition was. You don't know a damn thing about him or his family.

So you are in no position to say what he would have done or not done.

Many people become mentally ill, temporarily or permanently. They also get upset and do bad things out of anger, resentment and rage.

The reason why the emphasis is on the insane gun laws in the US is because when people do suffer from any of these events in the US, they can so easily get hold of a gun and do awful things. They can buy them in gun shops, or in gun fairs out of town and out of state where the checks are almost non existent.

In ireland and the UK however it is far far harder for an ordinary person to get a hold of any kind of a gun, never mind that kind of ammunition. And there have been many documented cases here when people have become deranged in this country, and have gone out to do damage. But when people here experience the same kind of crisis they are severely limited in their options to do damage. Usually it is a knife or a car or at the most extreme end, an old hand gun and a handful of bullets.

The Gun Law in the US is at the centre of this issue.

No it's not. As you said if I flipped and wanted to kill 30 people I'd just drive my car at 100km/h up Grafton st on a Saturday afternoon. Do you honestly think changing gun laws is a better solution than tackling head on why society is producing so many people with murderous intent and try to change that instead

SV

long range shooter wrote: »

Good point
Ask the society why,dont blame the gun laws;)

yeah that's true, look at the all the countries with proper gun control and how they have the same amount of gun crime as America, ohwaitnvrmind.