Another mass shooting in the U.S

Father Damo

gandalf wrote: »

Probably from the same places that James Holmes the Aurora shooter got his? However I don't remember body armour being capable of blowing a 5 years olds head off.

While I dont know if body armour even requires pre checking for sale it is illegal for convicted felons to possess it in certain states, presumably in order to persuade them to give up the gang lifestyle that requires its use (I know ODB of the Wu Tang Clan was arrested for using it in California once)

Father Damo

Blay wrote: »

What's interesting about this thread is that somebody mentioned s/a rifles on the first few pages and everyone just ran with it and blamed them...despite the guy using 2 pistols in the shooting. Hysteria about 'teh assault gunz' in action.

I doubt the 100% accurate details are in the public domain. Military weapons have been used in this type of attack before, and no doubt will be again in the future, so its a pretty stupid nitpick to make.

joydivision

How come you never hear of schools getting shot up in czech republic . The gun laws are very lax there . You can carry a concealed weapon and dont even need to give a reason as to why its concealed ..
You can have a gun provided your 18.
You can heavier artillery provided your 21 .

Yet sky news never seem to report from schools in czech republic .

Witcher

Father Damo wrote: »

I doubt the 100% accurate details are in the public domain. Military weapons have been used in this type of attack before, and no doubt will be again in the future, so its a pretty stupid nitpick to make.

The info on what he used is out there..people just picked up the word assault rifle and semi auto from others using it and went along with it. People haven't even looked into the story and they're blaming semi automatic rifles for it like they're a demon weapon. Everyone has opinions but as this shows only some are relevant.

gandalf

Blay wrote: »

The info on what he used is out there..people just picked up the word assault rifle and semi auto from others using it and went along with it. People haven't even looked into the story and they're blaming semi automatic rifles for it like they're a demon weapon. Everyone has opinions but as this shows only some are relevant.

The two guns used in the school were a Sig Sauer and Glock Semi-Automatic pistols and they found a AR15 Bushmaster in the back of his car outside.

One of the weapons James Holmes used was a Smith & Wesson AR15 Semi-Automatic rifle in the Aurora shooting with a 100 round drum mag. Thankfully it jammed after 30 rounds otherwise the death and injury toll could have been far higher. How anyone can say that a weapon like that is a hunting tool is beyond me.

Semi-Automatic weapons have their genesis in the military world. They are designed to kill people and they have no place in a civilised society.

Father Damo

Blay wrote: »

What's interesting about this thread is that somebody mentioned s/a rifles on the first few pages and everyone just ran with it and blamed them...despite the guy using 2 pistols in the shooting. Hysteria about 'teh assault gunz' in action.

I doubt the 100% accurate details are in the public domain. Military weapons have been used in this type of attack before, and no doubt will be again in the future, so its a pretty stupid nitpick to make.

Father Damo

Blay wrote: »

The info on what he used is out there..people just picked up the word assault rifle and semi auto from others using it and went along with it. People haven't even looked into the story and they're blaming semi automatic rifles for it like they're a demon weapon. Everyone has opinions but as this shows only some are relevant.

I think nobody in the US needs the right to have anything more than a double barreled hunting shotgun in their house.

You disagree.

Ive just finished being banned for a week for taking the piss out of a poster who subscribes to this sort of thing, so I am going to hold my tongue on this one.

Witcher

gandalf wrote: »

The two guns used in the school were a Sig Sauer and Glock Semi-Automatic pistols and they found a AR15 Bushmaster in the back of his car outside.

One of the weapons James Holmes used a Smith & Wesson AR15 Semi-Automatic rifle in the Aurora shooting with a 100 round drum mag. Thankfully it jammed after 30 rounds otherwise the death and injury toll could have been far higher. How anyone can say that a weapon like that is a hunting tool is beyond me.

Semi-Automatic weapons have their genesis in the military world. They are designed to kill people and they have no place in a civilised society.

That's great but they weren't used in THIS shooting so people saying 'oh assault rifles are the reason the death toll is so high' etc are talking sh1te. People haven't got a clue about what happened. They're just licking.terms up off the ground and repeating them. It's easy to demonise items you dont understand yourself, people use s/a rifles here for hunting and target shooting...people dont realise that and think they're only in the US.

joydivision

Father Damo wrote: »

I think nobody in the US needs the right to have anything more than a double barreled hunting shotgun in their house.

You disagree.

Ive just finished being banned for a week, so I am going to hold my tongue on this one.

Yeah but you can see a problem with them changing their constitution and culture because somebody in Ireland thinks differently .
Schools in russia and czech republic almost never get shot up .

old hippy

joydivision wrote: »

How come you never hear of schools getting shot up in czech republic . The gun laws are very lax there . You can carry a concealed weapon and dont even need to give a reason as to why its concealed ..
You can have a gun provided your 18.
You can heavier artillery provided your 21 .

Yet sky news never seem to report from schools in czech republic .

Or Canada.

In the US, there's way too easy access to guns and not much support for the mentally ill.

Witcher

Father Damo wrote: »

I think nobody in the US needs the right to have anything more than a double barreled hunting shotgun in their house.

You disagree.

Ive just finished being banned for a week for taking the piss out of a poster who subscribes to this sort of thing, so I am going to hold my tongue on this one.

How do you shoot deer with a double barrelled shotgun? How do you target shoot with one? How will the guys down in the Midlands range shoot out to 1000yrds with a shotgun?

You can't just bring down the hammer and make one type of gun the only legal one, people use them for all different functions, thats why the Gardai give licences for them. They dont want to hand them out but people have legitimate reasons for them.

gandalf

Blay wrote: »

That's great but they weren't used in THIS shooting so people saying 'oh assault rifles are the reason the death toll is so high' etc are talking sh1te. People haven't got a clue about what happened. They're just licking.terms up off the ground and repeating them. It's easy to demonise items you dont understand yourself, people use s/a rifles here for hunting and target shooting...people dont realise that and think they're only in the US.

He had a SA Rifle in the car. So he did have this weapon. Maybe we should be thankful he didn't bring that into the school as well because the toll could have been far higher.

I have fired weapons like these and I do understand them. Unless you have a really bad aim I don't see the need for a high capacity gun unless you plan on slaughtering the whole forest. As for target shooting that is something we will have to disagree on. Again I don't believe having a weapon that fires in excess of 18 shots to be a sport weapon.

(btw I meant to say in the previous post that the weapons quoted as being used by Adam Lanza were in a report on CNN)

Witcher

gandalf wrote: »

He had a SA Rifle in the car. So he did have this weapon. Maybe we should be thankful he didn't bring that into the school as well because the toll could have been far higher.

I have fired weapons like these and I do understand them. Unless you have a really bad aim I don't see the need for a high capacity gun unless you plan on slaughtering the whole forest. As for target shooting that is something we will have to disagree on. Again I don't believe having a weapon that fires in excess of 18 shots to be a sport weapon.

(btw I meant to say in the previous post that the weapons quoted as being used by Adam Lanza were in a report on CNN)

People who have the use of one hand for instance use them hunting and target shooting, you need two hands to operate a bolt action. Why 18 shots? 17 is safe then?

You get someone with a 10/15 round bolt action rifle that can work a bolt fast and they'll plough through the magazine as nearly fast as a s/a and do as much damage..look at University of Texas in the 60's..guy killed 16 with a b/a rifle..which people seem to think are totally safe to allow. Im not saying a sa isnt dangerous on the wrong hands but they have legitimate applications in the civilian world.

gandalf

Blay wrote: »

People who have the use of one hand for instance use them hunting and target shooting, you need two hands to operate a bolt action. Why 18 shots? 17 is safe then?

You get someone with a 10/15 round bolt action rifle that can work a bolt fast and they'll plough through the magazine as nearly fast as a s/a and do as much damage.

Really is that the best you can come up with. Keep SA because it discriminates against one handed people :rolleyes:

I used the 18 round example because thats the model I was aware of. 6-9 rounds would be enough for target shooting.

As for bolt action and speed of use, it would be far slower than a SA rifle with a large capacity magazine for all but the most skilled marksman.

Again as I have said before. Firearms that had their genesis in the military world have no place in ordinary civilised society for all but Police and Military forces. From your contribution it appears that we are both going to disagree on this point.

Tony EH

Piliger wrote: »

This is nonsense. Firstly you don't even know what his motive was. You don't know what his mental condition was. You don't know a damn thing about him or his family.

So you are in no position to say what he would have done or not done.

Many people become mentally ill, temporarily or permanently. They also get upset and do bad things out of anger, resentment and rage.

The reason why the emphasis is on the insane gun laws in the US is because when people do suffer from any of these events in the US, they can so easily get hold of a gun and do awful things. They can buy them in gun shops, or in gun fairs out of town and out of state where the checks are almost non existent.

In ireland and the UK however it is far far harder for an ordinary person to get a hold of any kind of a gun, never mind that kind of ammunition. And there have been many documented cases here when people have become deranged in this country, and have gone out to do damage. But when people here experience the same kind of crisis they are severely limited in their options to do damage. Usually it is a knife or a car or at the most extreme end, an old hand gun and a handful of bullets.

The Gun Law in the US is at the centre of this issue.

You're wasting your lad, because you're answering fools.

One of these massacres could happen every week and gun nuts would still want to play with their pop guns.

They just don't care about 5 year olds getting blown away.

That's really what it comes down to.

Tony EH

Aciiiiiiiiiiid wrote: »

Getting a little off topic here but picking the right time and streets you could probably rack up a death toll of close to 100 in a car or Jeep by tearing up pedestrianized streets on a busy day. More if you escape. But the reason behind people wanting to commit mass murder is not important, reducing the tools available to do it is the answer :rolleyes:

...and yet, such events are extremely rare, despite vehicles being readily available.

Your point is nonsense.

Tony EH

Manic Moran wrote: »

Some do, and I think it's a terrible environment.

Yeh. A bunch of dead 5 year olds is much better.

james142

Make guns illegal and all you do is disarm those willing to obey the law. Leaving guns solely in the hands of criminals.

Witcher

gandalf wrote: »

Really is that the best you can come up with. Keep SA because it discriminates against one handed people :rolleyes:
.

That's what people get centrefire semi autos for here, amongst other reasons. Whether you believe it or not that's how it is. You can get a rimfire semi auto here as easy as a bolt action, a CF one is harder to get. Whatever you or I or anyone else on this thread believes about them is irrelevant. It's the authorities who decide and they see a legitimate use for them.

---

It's looking like Obama may sign another Federal Assault Weapons Ban because of this, won't solve the problem though. People will buy them up like wildfire up to the ban and those already out there will remain in private hands so these shootings will still continue. It will likely only target rifles and shotguns so this shooting would still have happened under such a ban.

gandalf

james142 wrote: »

Make guns illegal and all you do is disarm those willing to obey the law. Leaving guns solely in the hands of criminals.

And the armed police are only there to eat doughnuts eh

books4sale

Piliger wrote: »

This is nonsense. Firstly you don't even know what his motive was. You don't know what his mental condition was. You don't know a damn thing about him or his family.

So you are in no position to say what he would have done or not done.

Many people become mentally ill, temporarily or permanently. They also get upset and do bad things out of anger, resentment and rage.

The reason why the emphasis is on the insane gun laws in the US is because when people do suffer from any of these events in the US, they can so easily get hold of a gun and do awful things. They can buy them in gun shops, or in gun fairs out of town and out of state where the checks are almost non existent.

In ireland and the UK however it is far far harder for an ordinary person to get a hold of any kind of a gun, never mind that kind of ammunition. And there have been many documented cases here when people have become deranged in this country, and have gone out to do damage. But when people here experience the same kind of crisis they are severely limited in their options to do damage. Usually it is a knife or a car or at the most extreme end, an old hand gun and a handful of bullets.

The Gun Law in the US is at the centre of this issue.

You probably expained it better than anybody else here, top post!

The Black Oil

Very sad. The idea that arming teachers is a possible solution is ridiculous. Do they think the average citizen is going to turn into Jack Bauer and intervene once something like this kicks off? For whatever reason, some young men are snapping...having guns in schools seems to be trying to stop a situation whilst it has escalated. There needs to be more awareness and training around mental health to try and nip these things in the bud. I know that won't stop everyone, but...and whilst we are here, let's not confuse autism with mental illness. I don't think a ban on its own would work, attitudes to guns are so bound up in culture and tradition.

I can't imagine the mental scars that will hit the kids and their families in the coming weeks and months.

gandalf

Blay I don't think any intelligent person discussing on this thread believes that a ban of any kind will make an immediate difference. It may take years. I heard a figure of 300 millions guns in circulation in the US. I thought that was high until I read this article which shocked me. It will take generations and gun control is only part of the solution. US Society needs to change as well. It's diagnosis and treatment of mental illness needs to improve also.

books4sale

gandalf wrote: »

Blay I don't think any intelligent person discussing on this thread believes that a ban of any kind will make an immediate difference. It may take years. I heard a figure of 300 millions guns in circulation in the US. I thought that was high until I read this article which shocked me. It will take generations and gun control is only part of the solution. US Society needs to change as well. It's diagnosis and treatment of mental illness needs to improve also.

Of course it won't make an immediate difference but they have to start somewhere.

Looking at the weapons this morning on the News, I mean who needs a friggin machine gun for home defense?

Flaming lunatics the lot of them.

Tony EH

Wibbs wrote: »

Yep gun ownership in the US is a large part of the problem, but there seem to be other social factors at play. If you look at the countries per capita gun ownership stats and then look at the homicide by gun stats they don't match up particularly well and the murder spree type horrors while they have happened in other countries they don't happen to nearly the same extent as in the US. Hell they didn't happen to nearly the same extent in the US two generations ago when gun laws were even more lax. Something in society is making it more likely that disenfranchised/mentally ill young(for the most part) men will "go postal"(an American expression). Men that after the fact it's discovered were well known to be in dire need of help.

It's become near a repeated ritual of responses played out on rolling news. All sorts of stuff will be looked at and blamed(video games, movie violence, the interweb etc). one side will argue for more gun control, another will argue for less and sadly we'll again see a new example of this kind of horror in 2013 and 2014 and so on.

On the gun front, how do you get the genie back in the bottle? Americans have something like 8 firearms for every 10 people. Trying to round up/control that won't be easy. Let's say they take "assault rifles" and "military pistols" out of the mix. That's usually good for headlines. A nutcase can still do a lot of damage with a hunting rifle/pistol. Someone with a repeating shotgun pump or auto can do horrible damage and that class of firearms are usually the last to be targeted for control. Even in Ireland with our very strict gun control shotguns are relatively easy to acquire.

Terrible situation and horrific for the families and the community involved. Mowing down children. Children FFS. :(:mad:

America, in general, doesn't care for it's ill. It just ignores the problem, like it chooses to ignore the problems stemming from it's appalling gun laws.

It's coming to a point over there where only the rich will be afforded health care and middle income people will be left to rot. Lower income people are already out of the loop.

The cost of care is prohibitive for many people and by and large they are left to their own devices. Many end up on the streets. It's shocking, for instance, the amount of bat-shit crazy people are on the street corners of San Francisco alone. These people can't afford regular visits to a shrink, or a stay in a proper facility. So, they cope as best they can, until finally they crack...and in some cases carry out these type of massacres, which is to a large extent glorified by the media, who loves this type of story. It's guaranteed coverage for at least a week. The other glorification is the national wankfest of the gun.

Put it all together and the recipe for disaster is as plain as day.

America, however, will continue to bury it's head in the sand over both issues.

gandalf

One of the scariest statistics in that article I linked to was this one.

In 2011 the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) ran 16,454,951 background checks for firearms purchases. Only a small number of these purchases (78,211 or 0.48 percent) were denied.

opti0nal

james142 wrote: »

Make guns illegal and all you do is disarm those willing to obey the law. Leaving guns solely in the hands of criminals.

Career criminals don't shoot up schools.

Witcher

Here's some guys supporting arming teachers. I watch their shooting videos etc but I don't subscribe to their beliefs on this needless to say.

wonderfullife

gandalf wrote: »

One of the scariest statistics in that article I linked to was this one.

What good is a background check? The shooter yesterday, the shooter in Aurora, Breivik, the Columbine shooters.....none of them had criminal records. People fly through background checks.

If people want the right to have a gun over there then they should be willing to sit through a mandatory psychiatric evaluation in order to get a license.

In nearly all the American mass-shootings in recent years, we hear accounts of the young men having problems that people were aware of. They shouldn't be simply allowed walk in a store and buy a gun and ammo.

Look, obviously this guy could still have got his hands on guns, some of the weapons might not have been his - but making sure anybody legally owning a gun is of sound mind is a good first step.

EdenHazard

joydivision wrote: »

How come you never hear of schools getting shot up in czech republic . The gun laws are very lax there . You can carry a concealed weapon and dont even need to give a reason as to why its concealed ..
You can have a gun provided your 18.
You can heavier artillery provided your 21 .

Yet sky news never seem to report from schools in czech republic .

The CZ has a population of something like 10 million? That's why. I don't know what they can do to prevent events like this. One would be greater awareness of the correlation between a guy with a history of being strange and displaying proper mental issues starts to show an interest in weapons! *Using Columbine as an example*