EU draft directive to be presented on wed 19th Dec

donkey oatey

@dr debaser I'm so glad you're being so proactive AND you're being heard! Do you think any vendors or vapers would donate some gear for you to hand out so any smoking TDs might be converted to vaping (and then they'd be on our side mwahahahaha!) I've got a spare ego and charger I could donate and some juices. But my friend said maybe they wouldn't be allowed to accept them as it could be considered a bribe (cos TDs are SOOOOO unbribable?).

was.deevey

But my friend said maybe they wouldn't be allowed to accept them as it could be considered a bribe (cos TDs are SOOOOO unbribable?).

Just don't wrap em' in brown paper :P

kiffy

A good article from the BBC.
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/434663/20130213/electronic-cigarettes-bbc-smoking.htm

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

from the international business times

DrDebaser

OK So I know you're all having a great time at the Vape meet,[sorry couldn't attend-previous engagement couldn't get out of - my 50th birthday] But just wanted to say I met with TD Terence Flannigan at the Dail on Friday, I think it went v well. He is supportive. Will give full info tomorrow when heads stopped spinning. Cheers

DrDebaser

As I said my meeting with Terence Flannigan TD went well. He listened as I outlined the basic idea of Vaping, looked at the equipment I brought with me ( ego twist, ego and Lavatube ). We went over the various ways of Vaping - cartos, cartomisers etc. I showed him various e-liquids in differing strengths and flavours. I made the following points : 1) At the level of nicotine the EU directive intends to allow Vaping will be useless for the majority because there is not enough nicotine to satisfy craving from smoking 2) The majority of businesses are SMEs and 2 yrs of testing will put them out of business, allowing only the biggest companies to take over the whole thing ie Tobacco /Pharmas. 3) I had serious health issues caused by smoking that have receded since I stated Vaping over two years ago. 4) It seems v wrong that cigs are relatively OTC , patches are available at up to 26mg strength via pharmacies OTC But e-cigs will be available at 4mg 5) Although many people start Vaping to save money the future health savings for the Irish state are huge. The Money spent on smoking related problems by the HSE is enormous 6) As Ireland has presidency of the EU it should lead the way on encouraging health saving devices like e-cigs not try to kill them off.Its a great opportunity for Ireland to make a stand and a difference. The upshot was that Terence suggested contacting various bodies ,cancer soc, Irish Times, Indo to raise the profile and get the message about Vaping and the directive out there. He said to say he was giving his support. I am writing a summary for him and the next step is a meeting with Dr James Reilly minister for Health. We will see, it is folks a start at least. All ideas feedback gratefully accepted.

P_1

First post here I think...

^ wow that sounds fantastic. I think the next logical step might be to try get in touch with the health writers of the Times, Indo and Examiner to see if you can get them to write a story on it.

tommy2bad

For anyone whos interisted enough to watch the first meeting, the public consultation part, of the TPD the full thing is here
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/ep-live/en/committees/video?event=20130225-1500-COMMITTEE-ENVI
Theirs an edited version here;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/europe-21579957
And if you cant be bothered (I don't blame you) theirs a reaction here;
http://ecignews.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/euro-madness-tpd-public-hearing-to-ban.html
All of the links come with a health warning,if you suffer from blood pressure dont click. The amount of mis-truths, half truths, and downright lies is breathtaking. James Rielly is a muppet who didn't even read the speech he gave before giving it.

Stock up now!

Mr. Chrome

I honestly cant express how angry this bulls*it makes me feel

colly10

Very annoying, not even slightly surprising though. When they come to my door looking for my vote ill be telling them that this is the reason that they're not getting it.

They ban e cigarettes but are happy enough with me paying over 100 euro on champix, I wonder which is the more dangerous of the 2

When it comes to not bothering to do your research or giving a **** about the people your decisions affect I honestly believe that the Irish gov are the worst of the lot

Vaperus

I just cant believe how STUPID People can actually be and these are the type of people that run the country and make decisions on our behalf what complete Morons

P_1

Shocking this, one rule for some eh?

tommy2bad

An ugly insight into how politics works! Decide, then find 'evidence' to support your decision, then some theater to make it look like you are doing some work, enforce your decision. Job done.
Oh f the decision is beyond you, get some vested interest to 'advise' you when deciding.
Not over yet, their's still a legal route and it was somewhat encouraging to hear some questions regarding NCP, shows our letters and emails are being noticed.

Mr. Chrome

FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS !!!!

P.I.T.A

Just bought another 300 ml of 50 mg Nic.
Have 2.4 litres now.

P_1

I just find it totally demoralising that they continue to ignore the views of the regular person.

tommy2bad

P_1 wrote: »

I just find it totally demoralising that they continue to ignore the views of the regular person.

In fact Mairead McGuinness (who btw ignored my email) implied that their was coordinated lobbying by the tobacco industry. Glad I used her election posters for raised veg beds now!
Borg is a cnut!
I'll be responding to this by email to all the muppets for all the good it will do.

P_1

tommy2bad wrote: »

In fact Mairead McGuinness (who btw ignored my email) implied that their was coordinated lobbying by the tobacco industry. Glad I used her election posters for raised veg beds now!
Borg is a cnut!
I'll be responding to this by email to all the muppets for all the good it will do.

That doesn't make any sense. Surely the tobacco lobby would be against e-cigs seeing as they have the potential to destroy their revenues

grindle

CC some newspapers while you're at it!

P_1 wrote: »

That doesn't make any sense. Surely the tobacco lobby would be against e-cigs seeing as they have the potential to destroy their revenues

Ecigs aren't ideal for them, but they have the clout to dominate and steer the industry with ease.
The pharma companies are the ones with the most to lose.

tommy2bad

Yeah, it's pretty obvious that pharma had a huge influence in draughtboarding this directive, them and the anti nicotine guys who were very vocal during the 'debate'. WTF? why did they call this a debate, it was a staged product launch. Hell, Rielly even admitted he had no data for his claims. 4 times they were asked to produce evidence and they all completely ignored it.
I'm totally disgusted with this and hope it's just the public part and that the behind the scenes discussions are more informed.

tommy2bad

P_1 wrote: »

That doesn't make any sense. Surely the tobacco lobby would be against e-cigs seeing as they have the potential to destroy their revenues

Doesn't have to make sense when all you want to do is dismiss opposition to something. You go for the guilty by association tactic and lump all opposition together as tobacco lobbying.

Mr. Chrome

I think tobacco companies realise how popular ecigs are becoming and in the future everyone will be vaping( I hope ) isnt that why BAT bought that e cig company in the UK last year for I think 100000000 quid

P_1

The thing that I really don't get is that the main claim seems to be that nicotine is the most harmful thing ever to put into our bodies.

By that logic shouldn't there be some sort of movement to ban coffee?

grindle

P_1 wrote: »

...shouldn't there be some sort of movement to ban coffee?

Give it a few years, the PC nanny-brigade will get their way in all spheres because their right to be offended trumps living.

Sounds CT-esque, but... Look at how this campaign for "health" is panning out.

P_1

grindle wrote: »

Give it a few years, the PC nanny-brigade will get their way in all spheres because their right to be offended trumps living.

Sounds CT-esque, but... Look at how this campaign for "health" is panning out.

Sadly that seems true.

Probably a bit of a rant but some people need to be told to butt out of matters that don't concern them. Fine you don't like to smoke/vape/drink/eat/whatever, you can do whatever the hell you want to do with your body just don't tell me what I should do with mine. Is that too hard of a concept for some people to grasp?

richardw001

Guys two questions and a point:

What does all this mean in terms of concrete dates etc. - if it goes ahead - are we talking about this year ?

Second question - has anyone been speaking to any vendors on this - there seems to be tons in ireland alone - are they going to mount some sort of defense either together or separately

What I don't understand is how cigarettes are simply getting away with a warning ? - and if they are how is nicotene ecig liquid effectively being banned.
Surely worst case all the same precidents/arguments preventing cigarettes being banned apply to ecigs as well.
If you assumed the worst and vaping was as bad as smoking - then surely the same rules still apply - i.e. people have been vaping for more than a number of years and should be protected - the same way as they don't take cigarettes away from existing smokers.
I guess my point is that we don't/shouldn't have to show that its safer (it obviously is) than smoking - the fact that its a consumer product means worst case should be that it can be taxed - not effectively banned. You could call it a human rights issue

Unfortunately my instinct is that this is going to go ahead - unless there is a big change - if you take the smokeless tobacco ban in 1992 - I'm sure people were writing to their TDs and MEPs back then as well - however it didn't stop it being banned.
Unless the vendors pump some money in and there is some sort of dramatic strategy to change the designation of eliquid > 2mg to be something allowable (at least for current users)

DubTony

tommy2bad wrote: »

For anyone whos interisted enough to watch the first meeting, the public consultation part, of the TPD the full thing is here
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/ep-live/en/committees/video?event=20130225-1500-COMMITTEE-ENVI
Theirs an edited version here;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/europe-21579957
And if you cant be bothered (I don't blame you) theirs a reaction here;
http://ecignews.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/euro-madness-tpd-public-hearing-to-ban.html
All of the links come with a health warning,if you suffer from blood pressure dont click. The amount of mis-truths, half truths, and downright lies is breathtaking. James Rielly is a muppet who didn't even read the speech he gave before giving it.

Stock up now!

I'm incensed by what I've read in the above quoted articles.

My mother and brother and I all started using ecigs late last year. When I mentioned to my mother that there was legislation coming in that might ban them, she actually wondered out loud if they were more dangerous than cigarettes. Unfortunately, this is how most people will look at it. As we're a race that, in the main, blindly accepts most of what our government decrees, I fear that there won't be enough opposition to this legislation and it will sail through Europe and then here with little more than what is effectively "a whimper from a few people on an Internet forum" (I can already hear Reilly using that phrase with his usual contempt).

The letters I've already written have had either no reply or the usual "the member has taken your suggestions into consideration ... blah ... blah" bullshit.

But I've been saying it for years, the acceptance of nanny state politics will see us all succumb to those who think they know what's best for us. :mad:

P_1

DubTony wrote: »

I'm incensed by what I've read in the above quoted articles.

My mother and brother and I all started using ecigs late last year. When I mentioned to my mother that there was legislation coming in that might ban them, she actually wondered out loud if they were more dangerous than cigarettes. Unfortunately, this is how most people will look at it. As we're a race that, in the main, blindly accepts most of what our government decrees, I fear that there won't be enough opposition to this legislation and it will sail through Europe and then here with little more than what is effectively "a whimper from a few people on an Internet forum" (I can already hear Reilly using that phrase with his usual contempt).

The letters I've already written have had either no reply or the usual "the member has taken your suggestions into consideration ... blah ... blah" bullshit.

But I've been saying it for years, the acceptance of nanny state politics will see us all succumb to those who think they know what's best for us. :mad:

What's the best course of action to take then if they're ignoring our letters/emails etc?

Should we simply pound the phones to get them to listen to our point I wonder?

wingnut32

Personally, I think it will go ahead in some form, but I also think there might be a few more twists and turns before we get there. The EU is notoriously slow implementing this kind of stuff.

One thing that does worry me is the average smoker thinking 'ah they'll be banned, I couldnt be bothered trying'. We need as many people as possible to convert so our voice can become louder and louder...

tommy2bad

richardw001 wrote: »

Guys two questions and a point:

What does all this mean in terms of concrete dates etc. - if it goes ahead - are we talking about this year ?

Second question - has anyone been speaking to any vendors on this - there seems to be tons in ireland alone - are they going to mount some sort of defense either together or separately

What I don't understand is how cigarettes are simply getting away with a warning ? - and if they are how is nicotene ecig liquid effectively being banned.
Surely worst case all the same precidents/arguments preventing cigarettes being banned apply to ecigs as well.
If you assumed the worst and vaping was as bad as smoking - then surely the same rules still apply - i.e. people have been vaping for more than a number of years and should be protected - the same way as they don't take cigarettes away from existing smokers.
I guess my point is that we don't/shouldn't have to show that its safer (it obviously is) than smoking - the fact that its a consumer product means worst case should be that it can be taxed - not effectively banned. You could call it a human rights issue

Unfortunately my instinct is that this is going to go ahead - unless there is a big change - if you take the smokeless tobacco ban in 1992 - I'm sure people were writing to their TDs and MEPs back then as well - however it didn't stop it being banned.
Unless the vendors pump some money in and there is some sort of dramatic strategy to change the designation of eliquid > 2mg to be something allowable (at least for current users)

As to time frame for implementation, Borg said at the end that all going the way they want it, it should be through the EU by 2014 and law in member states within 12 months of that. Not going smoothly, 2016 and consequent delay in follow through in member states 2018 before fully in force.
Seems like a long time but remember many countries have already tried and failed to get ecigs classed as medicines already, they won't delay enforcing this directive, most probably will go the Canadian rout of enforcement before they have any legal backup.
Don't know what individual vendors are doing but both ECITA and TVECA are starting to look at legal challenges to this and any MHRA direction if that comes first. Thats in England and if successful will put a spanner in the works of the EU directive. TVECA are a trade association led by Totaly Wicked, Jason Cropper owner of TW is the one who took the FDA in the US to court first and won the case.

I wouldn't be totally discouraged, several MEP raised the ecig issue and just because they were dismissed by Rielly or ignored by the panel dosnt mean they are now out of the picture, this has to be passed by MEP's voting for it. Convince them it's a bad idea and compromise will happen. Not all of them will be convincable, some are anti tobacco and some are anti tobacco companies, some others are anti nicotine but not all of them and hopefully not enough.
Anyone else struck by the irony of a SF MEP decrying the killing of innocents by the tobacco companies ?