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Animal lovers protest removal of fleas from UGH

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    #32
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,899 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »

    Has anyone actually seen cats being destroyed?

    People seem to have missed the point I made earlier: what is actually being destroyed here may not be cats.

    Would you go to a hospital if you knew there were rats there? Would a public building be allowed to stay open if there were rats there?

    Think on it ...

    One for the conspiracies forum!

    The bad pr from killing cats will be far worse. We all live with rats.

    The real conspiracy could be the pest controllers blaming cats knowing that removing them will increase the rat population & provide even more work.


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    #33
    BhoscaCapall
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,940 ✭✭✭BhoscaCapall


    Discodog wrote: »
    Well I totally supporting the protest & I object to being referred to in such terms.

    Just found out that the main objectors are the GSPCA & Dr Claudia Franks. Do you consider them wasters?
    I can't put into words how little I care about the opinions of people who put the rights of a cretinous animal ahead of a human.


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    #34
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,899 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    BhoscaCapall wrote: »
    I can't put into words how little I care about the opinions of people who put the rights of a cretinous animal ahead of a human.

    How is caring for the welfare of animals detrimental to the rights of humans?

    By the way no one is referring to animal rights. Would you consider a guide dog to be cretinous?


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    #35
    docmol
    Closed Accounts Posts: 339 ✭✭docmol


    The only acceptable method of cat control is trap, neuter & release. Cat owners are not legally obliged to control their cats. Anyone deliberately killing any cat could be open to prosecution especially when the new Animal Welfare Bill becomes law.
    Complete and utter rubbish, feral cats are vermin and killing vermin is allowed, always.
    As for how to tell the difference between feral and pet cats that's easy. If you can see their owners with them they are pets, if they are running loose they are feral.


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    #36
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,220 ✭✭✭✭biko


    Conmaicne Mara wrote: »
    Soap dodging, work shy, dole grabbing, protester g******
    BhoscaCapall wrote: »
    I could guess a few names, usually the same smelly rent a cause wasters.
    I don't see a reason for you two to post in this thread any more.


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    #37
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    Fleas are sentient beings too



    They're relentless bloodsucking parasites, in my (limited) experience. :)


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    #38
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    gozunda wrote: »
    Reminds me of what happened during the great Plague in London

    ...




    I'm glad you lived to tell the tale. ;)

    In this case the critters are allegedly cat fleas, so remove the host and the parasite goes as well (hopefully).

    But point well made: if the cats have played any role in keeping down other vermin such as rats and mice, removing them might lead to unintended consequences.

    The solution is to eradicate, or at least dramatically reduce, the populations of all pests.

    Oh, and perhaps the Vermin Terminators could clean the floors in UHG while they're at it...


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    #39
    SillyMangoX
    Registered Users Posts: 4,003 ✭✭✭SillyMangoX


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    I'm glad you lived to tell the tale. ;)

    In this case the critters are allegedly cat fleas, so remove the host and the parasite goes as well (hopefully).

    But point well made: if the cats have played any role in keeping down other vermin such as rats and mice, removing them might lead to unintended consequences.

    The solution is to eradicate, or at least dramatically reduce, the populations of all pests.

    Oh, and perhaps the Vermin Terminators could clean the floors in UHG while they're at it...

    Cat fleas are the most common type of flea and can be found on any type of creature, not necessarily just cats. Its way more likely that these fleas were brought in on the clothes of a patient/employee of the hospital with a pet with fleas than the flea magically hopping great distances from human shy feral cats to the general public.


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    #40
    galwayrush
    Registered Users Posts: 12,815 ✭✭✭✭galwayrush


    Let's neuter the fleas.:pac:


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    #41
    BhoscaCapall
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,940 ✭✭✭BhoscaCapall


    biko wrote: »
    I don't see a reason for you two to post in this thread any more.
    Interesting discussion forum you're operating here :rolleyes:

    Mod note: banned


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    #42
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,899 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    SillyMangoX wrote: »

    Cat fleas are the most common type of flea and can be found on any type of creature, not necessarily just cats. Its way more likely that these fleas were brought in on the clothes of a patient/employee of the hospital with a pet with fleas than the flea magically hopping great distances from human shy feral cats to the general public.

    Exactly. So if it is so obvious to us then who are the supposed experts & why haven't they got a clue?


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    #43
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    docmol wrote: »
    Complete and utter rubbish, feral cats are vermin and killing vermin is allowed, always.
    As for how to tell the difference between feral and pet cats that's easy. If you can see their owners with them they are pets, if they are running loose they are feral.


    Completely incorrect - one of the most stupid myths out there imo.

    Nowhere are 'feral' cats defined as vermin in Irish law


    Domestic cats that are not looked after by someone may be removed by authorised bodies


    All cats are of domestic Origin - there are no true wild / feral cats in Ireland

    There is one species of wild cat - in Scotland.

    Cats are understood to have a propensity to roam - even domestic cats. There is no legal requirement to lock up a cat or restrict a cat.

    It sounds you are one of those who 'hate' cats for some bizarre reason but have no rational basis for this

    Personally I believe such 'haters' have a form of leftover psychosis about cats from catholic witch burnings in the Middle Ages.


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    #44
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Iwannahurl wrote: »




    I'm glad you lived to tell the tale. ;)

    In this case the critters are allegedly cat fleas, so remove the host and the parasite goes as well (hopefully).

    But point well made: if the cats have played any role in keeping down other vermin such as rats and mice, removing them might lead to unintended consequences.

    The solution is to eradicate, or at least dramatically reduce, the populations of all pests.

    Oh, and perhaps the Vermin Terminators could clean the floors in UHG while they're at it...


    'I am Duncan MacLeod, born four hundred years ago in the Highlands of Scotland. I am Immortal and I am not alone. For centuries we have waited for the time of the Gathering, when the stroke of a sword and the fall of a head will release the power of the Quickening. In the end, there can be only one.'

    ...but there will be many cats :D


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    #45
    docmol
    Closed Accounts Posts: 339 ✭✭docmol


    gozunda wrote: »
    Completely incorrect - one of the most stupid myths out there imo.

    Nowhere are 'feral' cats defined as vermin in Irish law


    Domestic cats that are not looked after by someone may be removed by authorised bodies


    All cats are of domestic Origin - there are no true wild / feral cats in Ireland

    There is one species of wild cat - in Scotland.

    Cats are understood to have a propensity to roam - even domestic cats. There is no legal requirement to lock up a cat or restrict a cat.

    It sounds you are one of those who 'hate' cats for some bizarre reason but have no rational basis for this

    Personally I believe such 'haters' have a form of leftover psychosis about cats from catholic witch burnings in the Middle Ages.


    I beg to differ. The legal definition of vermin is any animal that causes harm to humans. This harm can be economical or physical. There is no list of what animals are vermin, just a couple of examples in the guidlines. Even a much loved pet can be considered vermin and shot by anyone, without fear of the law, if they do it to protect their lives/income. Try telling a farmer not to shoot your pet dog if it's worrying his sheep. Even better, try and get him charged. I'm not a lawyer but a search of the Irish statutes brought up the 1976 wildlife act and here is the relevent section (I think!)
    (5) Section 58 of the Act of 1946 is hereby amended as follows:


    (a) subsection (1) shall have effect as if the words “rabbits or”, wherever they occur, were deleted, and


    (b) the following is hereby substituted for subsection (3):


    “(3) Each of the following shall be vermin for the purposes of this section—


    (a) any wild bird which is not a protected wild bird within the meaning of the Wildlife Act, 1976,


    (b) any wild animal (other than a bird) which is not a protected wild animal within the meaning of that Act.”

    There are obviously feral cats in Ireland. These were domestic cats at one stage, or their parents etc were domestic cats, but as they now live without owners to keep them they are feral.
    The sweeping generalisations made at the end of your arguement would seem to put you among a group of people that think cats can do no wrong and everyone else should accept bad cat owners. I disagree.
    The sooner cats are licenced and chipped the better. This would help to ensure people who mistreat or abandon their pets are traceable. It would also mean that owners could be held to account if their cats become a nuissance. The reason that there is no legal requirement to lock up or restrict a cat is not because some wise lawmakers set down and decided that cats were above the law. It's because cats were not considered important enough to legislate for. Dogs, horses etc are considered property and protected for that reason. Cats aren't.


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    #46
    Just Like Heaven
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,132 ✭✭✭Just Like Heaven


    Conmaicne Mara wrote: »
    Soap dodging, work shy, dole grabbing, protester g******.

    :D


    Claaaass.


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    #47
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    docmol wrote: »
    I beg to differ. The legal definition of vermin is any animal that causes harm to humans. This harm can be economical or physical. There is no list of what animals are vermin, just a couple of examples in the guidlines. Even a much loved pet can be considered vermin and shot by anyone, without fear of the law, if they do it to protect their lives/income. Try telling a farmer not to shoot your pet dog if it's worrying his sheep. Even better, try and get him charged. I'm not a lawyer but a search of the Irish statutes brought up the 1976 wildlife act and here is the relevent section (I think!)


    There are obviously feral cats in Ireland. These were domestic cats at one stage, or their parents etc were domestic cats, but as they now live without owners to keep them they are feral.
    The sweeping generalisations made at the end of your arguement would seem to put you among a group of people that think cats can do no wrong and everyone else should accept bad cat owners. I disagree.
    The sooner cats are licenced and chipped the better. This would help to ensure people who mistreat or abandon their pets are traceable. It would also mean that owners could be held to account if their cats become a nuissance. The reason that there is no legal requirement to lock up or restrict a cat is not because some wise lawmakers set down and decided that cats were above the law. It's because cats were not considered important enough to legislate for. Dogs, horses etc are considered property and protected for that reason. Cats aren't.


    Again you are incorrect. Specifically your personal assumptions and incorrect interpretation of the law are wrong.

    The vermin list is clearly listed in Irish legislation.

    People who shoot or hunt are restricted in what they can and cannot shoot.

    An animal that straying or causing problems are dealt with under straying animal regulations and local by laws. These are normally specific organisations or professional firms not cowboys with Guns taking potshots at domestic animals

    You risk have a gun licence removed, any weapons confiscated and prosecution for shooting out side the terms of a licence.

    A person shooting a domestic pet / animal for any reason may be done to the full rigours of the law

    If farmers jones cow trespasses on to my land and eats my grass or moves into the shed - I cannot shoot it.

    There is very specific laws about shooting straying dogs (control of dogs act) because they may pose specific danger to other animals.

    The piece of legislation you quote refers to native wild animals of non domestic origin.
    So it bears no issue to domestic / or domestic animals / cats that have been abandoned

    I have checked this issue with a barrister and they confirmed that an abandoned cat does NOT fall within the remit of a) a wild animal as given under the wildlife act or b) vermin as defined under same for the purposes of shooting.


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    #48
    ?Cee?view
    Registered Users Posts: 2,848 ✭✭✭?Cee?view


    gozunda wrote: »


    Again you are incorrect. Specifically your personal assumptions and incorrect interpretation of the law are wrong.

    The vermin list is clearly listed in Irish legislation.

    People who shoot or hunt are restricted in what they can and cannot shoot.

    An animal that straying or causing problems are dealt with under straying animal regulations and local by laws. These are normally specific organisations or professional firms not cowboys with Guns taking potshots at domestic animals

    You risk have a gun licence removed, any weapons confiscated and prosecution for shooting out side the terms of a licence.

    A person shooting a domestic pet / animal for any reason may be done to the full rigours of the law

    If farmers jones cow trespasses on to my land and eats my grass or moves into the shed - I cannot shoot it.

    There is very specific laws about shooting straying dogs (control of dogs act) because they may pose specific danger to other animals.

    The piece of legislation you quote refers to native wild animals of non domestic origin.
    So it bears no issue to domestic / or domestic animals / cats that have been abandoned

    I have checked this issue with a barrister and they confirmed that an abandoned cat does NOT fall within the remit of a) a wild animal as given under the wildlife act or b) vermin as defined under same for the purposes of shooting.

    Any chance your pet barrister could confirm the legal basis for his/her reasoning?

    I genuinely can't understand why cats don't have to be licensed if dogs do. Cats damage property. In my own garden I've had to tolerate a cat who's given birth to a litter with no way of tracing its owner.

    As to the argument as to what is feral I note that you've confined your analysis to statutory definitions to the exclusion of the general definition which includes an animal which damages property etc.


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    #49
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    gozunda wrote: »
    ...but there will be many cats :D




    Blessed are the cats, dogs, rats, cockroaches and fleas, for they shall inherit the Earth...


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    #50
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    gozunda wrote: »
    Cats are understood to have a propensity to roam - even domestic cats. There is no legal requirement to lock up a cat or restrict a cat.

    It sounds you are one of those who 'hate' cats for some bizarre reason but have no rational basis for this

    Personally I believe such 'haters' have a form of leftover psychosis about cats from catholic witch burnings in the Middle Ages.




    Personally I have some very good reasons for disliking cats, especially the ones prowling my neighbourhood. However, I would acknowledge that the primary problem is not the moggies themselves but their ignorant, irresponsible, untraceable and unaccountable owners.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=80809055&postcount=564


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    #51
    inisboffin
    Registered Users Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭inisboffin


    Currently cat owners aren't accountable for their pets. How can they be fully?

    It isn't that easy *at all* to differentiate between an 'owned' and an 'un-owned' cat (many cats without official owners are often fed, and even taken and neutered but different people in an area).

    There is no way at the moment to make owners 'more responsible' for their cat's behaviour, it's in the cat's nature to wander and is nigh on impossible to monitor that. Owners can of course neuter cats and make sure that they are healthy, but the can still catch and pass things on, particularly if they are 'gone for a few days' cats (some do!).
    The only way to control cats is to make them indoor cats like they have in some large urban areas. Many declaw the cats so they won't destroy furniture. Aside with how you feel about this morally, it simply wouldn't work for many people, including working 'mousers' in rural areas (and urban), that are seen as 'working' cats.


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    #52
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    churchview wrote: »

    Any chance your pet barrister could confirm the legal basis for his/her reasoning?

    I genuinely can't understand why cats don't have to be licensed if dogs do. Cats damage property. In my own garden I've had to tolerate a cat who's given birth to a litter with no way of tracing its owner.

    As to the argument as to what is feral I note that you've confined your analysis to statutory definitions to the exclusion of the general definition which includes an animal which damages property etc.

    Reasoning =professional interpretation of the relevant acts & legislation

    Cats do not have to licensed. End of.
    If you think this should be done perhaps lobby a TD etc

    If you have a cat & litter - contact the relevant organisation

    I am not aware of any legislation relevant to 'animals' that cause damage that states that those who suffer trespass etc can kill domestic animals except the control of dogs acts.

    There are provisions for animal owners to be liable under law for damage / trespass caused - these normally require compensation to be awarded, such legislation gives nothing about the deputisation of any individual for the shooting or killing of such animals.


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    #53
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,899 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    Hopefully the forthcoming Animal Welfare Bill will clarify the issue regarding feral cats.A visit to the hunting forum here will show that people do shoot cats & some appear to enjoy it.

    The, in my opinion, justified cat cull on Tory Island shows the level of precautions necessary to ensure that pets are not killed. These measures could not be applied in a mainland & especially an urban setting.

    The "hospital" cats were killed by a vet who may be on very sticky ground as there is no owner present to authorise the killing. The appointed pest control cannot assume ownership.


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    #54
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Discodog wrote: »
    Hopefully the forthcoming Animal Welfare Bill will clarify the issue regarding feral cats.A visit to the hunting forum here will show that people do shoot cats & some appear to enjoy it.

    Disco dog - I shoot - legally. As stated shooting cats as vermin is illegal. I know of an individual who shot a cat, boasted about down his local and subsequently lost his firearms licence.
    The urban myth of being legally permitted to shoot cats is just that - a myth.

    If there are those that 'enjoy' shooting cats as you suggest they are breaking the law. Looks like more of that bizarre medieval mindset about cats that is prevalent in some strata of society.

    There are those that 'enjoy' dog baiting and cock fighting - this does not make it legal.
    The, in my opinion, justified cat cull on Tory Island shows the level of precautions necessary to ensure that pets are not killed. These measures could not be applied in a mainland & especially an urban setting.

    That 'cull' was undertaken by the relevant authorities - not by pot shooting ejjits with bees in their bonnets
    The "hospital" cats were killed by a vet who may be on very sticky ground as there is no owner present to authorise the killing. The appointed pest control cannot assume ownership.

    Incorrect - the issue you brought up was unregulated shooting of cats. In this case the relevant authority authorised cats to be collected and euthanised if necessary and for those who could be rehomed to be so. As is the case for straying dogs that are collected - there is the opportunity for any owners to come forward.


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    #55
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,899 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    gozunda wrote: »
    Incorrect - the issue you brought up was unregulated shooting of cats. In this case the relevant authority authorised cats to be collected and euthanised if necessary and for those who could be rehomed to be so. As is the case for straying dogs that are collected - there is the opportunity for any owners to come forward.

    There is no Pound facility for cats. There is no evidence of any attempt to seek the owners. It appears that no notice was given to warn pet owners.

    The obvious place for the cats is Galway Cat Rescue but, as they are one of the objectors, the cats were not taken there.

    The articles state that a contractor was used so not the Council. The nearest Vet, The Ark, have confirmed that they had nothing to do with the cats.


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    #56
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    How exactly does one 'home' a feral cat anyway??


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    #57
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,899 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    How exactly does one 'home' a feral cat anyway??

    You can "rehome" them. It does take some work & it varies from cat to cat. Neutering makes a huge difference. You can then use the post neuter care period to start gaining the cat's trust.


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    #58
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Discodog wrote: »

    There is no Pound facility for cats. There is no evidence of any attempt to seek the owners. It appears that no notice was given to warn pet owners.

    The local authority has authority to collect both cats, dogs & horses under locall bye laws - . Usually Owners have a number of days usually to claim lost animals. The original report on this indicated that there would be rehoming if possible
    The obvious place for the cats is Galway Cat Rescue but, as they are one of the objectors, the cats were not taken there.

    See above.
    The articles state that a contractor was used so not the Council. The nearest Vet, The Ark, have confirmed that they had nothing to do with the cats.

    Councils frequently outsource such work. This is not unusual.

    Postscript: I have a number of farm yard cats that are 'working animals. They are used for rodent control and IME are very effective at that. I do not ever lock them up as they need to be able to use their natural instinctive behaviour to control rodents. They get vetinary treatment as required. They are also vaccinated and neutered.


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    #59
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,899 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    gozunda wrote: »

    The local authority has authority to collect both cats, dogs & horses under locall bye laws - I am not sure what you refer to by 'pound'. Owners have a number of days usually to claim lost animals. The original report on this indicated that there would be rehoming if possible

    Again I think you are incorrect. Dog Pounds & the provision of wardens are covered by statute not bye law. Horse Pounds are covered by the relatively new Control of Horses act.

    There is no legal requirement regarding cats & therefore no obligation by the local authority.

    If your dog is seized or lost you know to contact the Pound. If someone, living near the hospital, has lost a cat there is no equivalent.

    By the way, according to the press reports, the cats were removed by a contractor so it was nothing to do with local byelaws.

    A quick Google will reveal companies that remove & kill cats.


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    #60
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Discodog wrote: »

    Again I think you are incorrect. Dog Pounds & the provision of wardens are covered by statute not bye law. Horse Pounds are covered by the relatively new Control of Horses act.

    There is no legal requirement regarding cats & therefore no obligation by the local authority.

    If your dog is seized or lost you know to contact the Pound. If someone, living near the hospital, has lost a cat there is no equivalent.


    In selected counties animal Warden services are provided by individual organisations. They recieve government funding towards the running of rhese facilities and act as effective animal collection agencies. Local bye laws remain the relevant provisions for the control of stray animals. Horse control is a function of local bye laws under relevant legislation. This falls under the remit of the local authority.


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    #61
    inisboffin
    Registered Users Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭inisboffin


    So given the information in the posts above, ye are saying that these cats were rounded up by contractor? Were owners of the 'non-feral' cats then given a grace period to collect their cats before all were destroyed?

    Where is this local council cat holding facility? I have never heard of it, (not to say it doesn't exist). I've seen posts about missing cats, and no one mentioned a council run holding facility where people can claim their domestic pets?


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