Animal lovers protest removal of fleas from UGH

Sponge Bob

OK , we got us a real serious case of CatNapping here boys. :mad:

Get onto Walsh Kyne and Nolan in the morning to ask O'Reilly where these catnapped UCHG cats are currently being held by the HSE. :cool:

Mrs OBumble

Has anyone actually seen a cat being removed? Has anyone living near the hospital had a cat go missing in the last week?

Or are we building castles in the air?

Dr Turk Turkelton

Will everyone get a grip it's a few stray cats getting put down no need for all the drama.

If the do-gooders need something to get up in arms about I'm sure there is a one armed,mixed race,adapted lesbian being mistreated somewhere to get up in arms about.

If the only reason you have to protest at a hospital is over a few stray cats with all that is going on in the health service there is something very wrong with you.

gozunda

Cuchulainn1. wrote: »

Will everyone get a grip it's a few stray cats getting put down no need for all the drama.

If the do-gooders need something to get up in arms about I'm sure there is a one armed,mixed race,adapted lesbian being mistreated somewhere to get up in arms about.

If the only reason you have to protest at a hospital is over a few stray cats with all that is going on in the health service there is something very wrong with you.

Calm down! Tis not the cats that are the problem - tis the fleas!

Big fleas have little fleas,
Upon their backs to bite 'em,
And little fleas have lesser fleas,
and so, ad infinitum.

And the great fleas, themselves, in turn
Have greater fleas to go on;
While these again have greater still,
And greater still, and so on.

Ps what exactly is an adapted lesbian?

gozunda

inisboffin wrote: »

So given the information in the posts above, ye are saying that these cats were rounded up by contractor? Were owners of the 'non-feral' cats then given a grace period to collect their cats before all were destroyed?

Where is this local council cat holding facility? I have never heard of it, (not to say it doesn't exist). I've seen posts about missing cats, and no one mentioned a council run holding facility where people can claim their domestic pets?

See link

http://www.galwaynews.ie/29334-pest-control-company-removes-wild-cats-uhg

WeNeed Another General Election

WallyGUFC wrote: »

Probably the same professional protestors that made up the Occupy rubbish. Another bandwagon for them I suppose.

if anybody's jumped on a bandwagon it's you in my opinion

Discodog wrote: »

If the hospital & HSE can't get something basic, like this, right then it hardly bodes well for the more serious decisions.

Treating the cats humanely doesn't effect the care of patients.

this is a few weeks after Savita. should anybody be getting up in arms over feral cats?

biko wrote: »

I don't see a reason for you two to post in this thread any more.

spot on and I've reported another post too

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

Interesting discussion forum you're operating here :rolleyes:

Mod note: banned

:P

Discodog

gozunda wrote: »

In selected counties animal Warden services are provided by individual organisations. They recieve government funding towards the running of rhese facilities and act as effective animal collection agencies. Local bye laws remain the relevant provisions for the control of stray animals. Horse control is a function of local bye laws under relevant legislation. This falls under the remit of the local authority.

In Galway City & County these services are run by the LA. Dog control is governed by the Control of Dogs act not local byelaws.

I repeat, yet again, that there is no provision to collect feral cats or rehome them.

The reason that some of us are concerned about this is because the HSE made the wrong decision. If they can't get something basic right then it hardly inspires confidence for the bigger decisions.

But also it creates the impression that cats are disposable & may encourage others to act.

gozunda

Discodog wrote: »

In Galway City & County these services are run by the LA. Dog control is governed by the Control of Dogs act not local byelaws.

I repeat, yet again, that there is no provision to collect feral cats or rehome them.

The reason that some of us are concerned about this is because the HSE made the wrong decision. If they can't get something basic right then it hardly inspires confidence for the bigger decisions.

But also it creates the impression that cats are disposable & may encourage others to act.

DD - I get where you are coming from

Dog licensing / control is derived from legislation but remains under the control of the LA

The article below indicates that the hospital was in contact with the GSPCA

http://www.galwaynews.ie/29334-pest-control-company-removes-wild-cats-uhg

They also mention the vet checking the animals for microchips etc

Agree that there needs to be some provision for abandoned cats

OldNotWIse

WeNeed Another General Election wrote: »

if anybody's jumped on a bandwagon it's you in my opinion



this is a few weeks after Savita. should anybody be getting up in arms over feral cats?



spot on and I've reported another post too



:P

The two are not mutually exclusive.

kayos

gozunda wrote: »

The article below indicates that the hospital was in contact with the GSPCA

http://www.galwaynews.ie/29334-pest-control-company-removes-wild-cats-uhg

And the GSPCA claim they were not contacted by the HSE.

Also please note the Dept of Argi recommend TNR when dealing with feral cats.

The problem here is the fact the HSE have decided to take the course of action that no Animal rights movement would recommend and heck they have even gone against the relevant government department recommendations on the matter.

Sponge Bob

kayos wrote: »

And the GSPCA claim they were not contacted by the HSE.

Also please note the Dept of Argi recommend TNR when dealing with feral cats.

TNDR surely. Link to that recommendation too pls.

inisboffin

gozunda wrote: »

See link

http://www.galwaynews.ie/29334-pest-control-company-removes-wild-cats-uhg

I had a look at this, and nowhere does it mention a 'cat pound'. It says:
"The cats are being removed from the hospital grounds by a pest control company and are being brought to a vet to be humanely put down or re-housed if possible. The vet is able to identify that these cats are wild due to their condition and the absence of microchips or collars."

In other words it's in and out. And if your cat has no microchip or collar then it gets the chop. No holding 'cell'. Irresponsible or not, a huge amount of domestic cats aren't chipped or collared.
Also, I have *no* idea how they would go about finding the owner of a cat with no chip but a collar (so by their terms it's domesticated)?

gozunda

inisboffin wrote: »

I had a look at this, and nowhere does it mention a 'cat pound'. It says:
"The cats are being removed from the hospital grounds by a pest control company and are being brought to a vet to be humanely put down or re-housed if possible. The vet is able to identify that these cats are wild due to their condition and the absence of microchips or collars."

In other words it's in and out. And if your cat has no microchip or collar then it gets the chop. No holding 'cell'. Irresponsible or not, a huge amount of domestic cats aren't chipped or collared.
Also, I have *no* idea how they would go about finding the owner of a cat with no chip but a collar (so by their terms it's domesticated)?

Is it you are looking for a "cat pound"?

As stated many LA work with local organisations for this purpose - I suppose the best way to find out is to contact the Galway Council and ask the question directly.

There also appears to be some diasagreement whether the GSPCA were actually contacted...

?Cee?view

gozunda wrote: »

Reasoning =professional interpretation of the relevant acts & legislation

No, sorry. That doesn't wash. Just because someone is a barrister doesn't make them a legal oracle. They still need to justify and give reasoning for their opinion.

inisboffin

gozunda wrote: »

Is it you are looking for a "cat pound"?

As stated many LA work with local organisations for this purpose - I suppose the best way to find out is to contact the Galway Council and ask the question directly.

There also appears to be some diasagreement whether the GSPCA were actually contacted...

Yeah, I saw that about the GSPCA. My point is in *this* instance (from the article) there didn't seem to be any transference such 'holding' place for cats. They were destroyed at the vets if 'seeming' non-domesticated.

gozunda

churchview wrote: »

No, sorry. That doesn't wash. Just because someone is a barrister doesn't make them a legal oracle. They still need to justify and give reasoning for their opinion.

Well i dont know what to advise you because a barrister is about as close to what you call a "legal oracle" that you can get. They are qualified to read and interpret legal language

Tbh I dont care what washes - I will believe a barrister over some joesoap with a chip on their shoulder - so you would prefer your own interpretation of the current legal status regarding this? Best of luck with that.

I must admit I do love it when people "claim" to know the law on a subject without having sought proper advice themselves. Maybe you could find your own pet barrister and see what they say - ok? I sure they will able to give you their "reasoning"....

btw - did you contact the relevant organisation about the cat that had the kittens in your backyard?

bluecode

For a start it is impossible to differentiate between a pet cat & a feral cat.

If you ever come across a feral cat you can tell quite easily. They are quite wild.

I like cats but cats, feral or otherwise cannot be allowed to wander freely in a hospital. Simple as that. They have to be removed and feral cats are by their nature difficult to domesticate and often carry diseases not found in your average house cat. So finding a home for them is going to be tough. There is no alternative to euthanising them.

Vegeta

gozunda wrote: »

I have checked this issue with a barrister and they confirmed that an abandoned cat does NOT fall within the remit of a) a wild animal as given under the wildlife act or b) vermin as defined under same for the purposes of shooting.

What section of what act does the barrister use to explain his reasoning?

?Cee?view

gozunda wrote: »

Well i dont know what to advise you because a barrister is about as close to what you call a "legal oracle" that you can get. They are qualified to read and interpret legal language

Every lawyer is qualified to read and interpret language. However, lawyers differ on interpretation (a symptom of which is our Adversarial system), so simply saying a particular lawyer "deems it to be so" is complete nonsense.

gozunda wrote: »

Tbh I dont care what washes - I will believe a barrister over some joesoap with a chip on their shoulder - so you would prefer your own interpretation of the current legal status regarding this? Best of luck with that.

No, I'd like your lawyer's interpretation if he is willing or capable of giving it.

Who's the "joesoap with a chip on their shoulder"? Is that me because I had the cheek to ask you to justify or explain your position?

gozunda wrote: »

I must admit I do love it when people "claim" to know the law on a subject without having sought proper advice themselves. Maybe you could find your own pet barrister and see what they say - ok? I sure they will able to give you their "reasoning"....

I asked for your lawyer's reasoning. I never opined on my or any other lawyers interpretation. "I must admit I do love it" when people won't give their reasoning but just make bald statements as if the law is always clearly black and white.

gozunda wrote: »

btw - did you contact the relevant organisation about the cat that had the kittens in your backyard?

I wouldn't have a clue who to contact. The cat and kittens seem to be gone now.

gozunda

churchview wrote: »

Every lawyer is qualified to read and interpret language. However, lawyers differ on interpretation (a symptom of which is our Adversarial system), so simply saying a particular lawyer "deems it to be so" is complete nonsense.

Thats not what you have said prevously! I have given my opinion on a previous statement that it was legal to shoot domestic animals. I have given this and quoted my source. It was not a 'lawyer' that I asked it was as I explained a barrister whom I know. Are you saying that you are some how better qualified to interpret legislation? If so how is that?

no, I'd like your lawyer's interpretation if he is willing or capable of giving it.

I'll tell you what - you go of and get your own legal opinion and then we can compare notes. If I could be bothered to find out what is and is not legal to shoot - I suggest you get off your stool and do the same.

Who's the "joesoap with a chip on their shoulder"? Is that me because I had the cheek to ask you to justify or explain your position?

?really looking for a scrap eh? No this refers to anybody who chooses to believe what ever they wish to without basis in fact or doing a bit of checking with someone who can give you their qualified and professional opinion on the matter. I did so and I suggest you do likewise

I asked for your lawyer's reasoning. I never opined on my or any other lawyers interpretation. "I must admit I do love it" when people won't give their reasoning but just make bald statements as if the law is always clearly black and white.

You however clearly bandwagoned on my reply to docmols post where he stated that pets could be shot by anyone as they could be classed as vermin

You of course do not have to believe me or anything so I would suggest you seek your own legal advice on this matter. FYI the forum does not allow legal advice so bar what I have been told directly for my own information and which I related in general terms that I am pesonaly satisfied with the current legal situation

What is your opinion on shooting pets - please do let us know - I am very interested.

I wouldn't have a clue who to contact. The cat and kittens seem to be gone now.

You appear to be well informed so I presumed that you would know that there are plenty of animal welfare organisations out there - I suggest you contact one to avoid being so outraged at the cats termerity to have kittens in your backyard.

inisboffin

bluecode wrote: »

If you ever come across a feral cat you can tell quite easily. They are quite wild.

I'd have to disagree from personal experience. I know what you are saying is sometimes true but not all the time. Cat up the road 'reads' as feral. Skittish, a little raggy looking, no collar, torn ear from fighting. But he is loved, fed cared for by a family, they tried a collar twice, and twice he came home without it!

Opposite to that, near relatives in Dublin are 'feral' cats. A local woman traps as many as she can and neuters them. These cats have no owners, but are fed by various people and come right up to you.

?Cee?view

gozunda wrote: »

Thats not what you have said prevously! I have given my opinion on a previous statement that it was legal to shoot domestic animals. I have given this and quoted my source. It was not a 'lawyer' that I asked it was as I explained a barrister whom I know. Are you saying that you are some how better qualified to interpret legislation? If so how is that?



I'll tell you what - you go of and get your own legal opinion and then we can compare notes. If I could be bothered to find out what is and is not legal to shoot - I suggest you get off your stool and do the same.



?really looking for a scrap eh? No this refers to anybody who chooses to believe what ever they wish to without basis in fact or doing a bit of checking with someone who can give you their qualified and professional opinion on the matter. I did so and I suggest you do likewise



You however clearly bandwagoned on my reply to docmols post where he stated that pets could be shot by anyone as they could be classed as vermin

You of course do not have to believe me or anything so I would suggest you seek your own legal advice on this matter. FYI the forum does not allow legal advice so bar what I have been told directly for my own information and which I related in general terms that I am pesonaly satisfied with the current legal situation

What is your opinion on shooting pets - please do let us know - I am very interested.



You appear to be well informed so I presumed that you would know that there are plenty of animal welfare organisations out there - I suggest you contact one to avoid being so outraged at the cats termerity to have kittens in your backyard.

So, to summarise, you're right because your pal the barrister says so; is that it? Your barrister is a legal genius who is possibly the only lawyer in Ireland (possibly the world) who gives an opinion without having to reason the said opinion. His word is law.

I'd say if you're defending the hospital cats the evil cat catchers are quaking in their (puss in) boots :-)

gozunda

churchview wrote: »

So, to summarise, you're right because your pal the barrister says so; is that it? Your barrister is a legal genius who is possibly the only lawyer in Ireland (possibly the world) who gives an opinion without having to reason the said opinion. His word is law.

I'd say if you're defending the hospital cats the evil cat catchers are quaking in their (puss in) boots :-)

Your powers of summary are somewhat inadequate

That's is clearly not what I posted. I asked for a professional opinion on this issue because it was something I wished to clarify. I am sure there are plenty more barristers out here you could look up that work in the relative area that could clarify the situation for you . I will await with anticipation your return with said information. I am not defending anything btw - in this case I have detailed my knowledge (as professionally explained to me) regarding this matter as a pause to the looney brigade who believe that it's ok to shoot domestic animals soley based on their personal interpretation of legislation. Anyone who believes this needs to go and actually find out for themselves from someone who knows what they are doing before they get into trouble and cause trouble for all those who shoot legally.

?Cee?view

gozunda wrote: »

Your powers of summary are somewhat inadequate

That's is clearly not what I posted. I asked for a professional opinion on this issue because it was something I wished to clarify. I am sure there are plenty more barristers out here you could look up that work in the relative area that could clarify the situation for you . I will await with anticipation your return with said information. I am not defending anything btw - in this case I have detailed my knowledge (as professionally explained to me) regarding this matter as a pause to the looney brigade who believe that it's ok to shoot domestic animals soley based on their personal interpretation of legislation. Anyone who believes this needs to go and actually find out for themselves from someone who knows what they are doing before they get into trouble and cause trouble for all those who shoot legally.

You haven't detailed anything. You're clearly not capable of it. Anyone who takes legal advice tends to want to understand that advice so that they can interrogate the reasoning behind the advice. You must not be in a position to do so because any question as to reasoning behind your statement is met with a statement relating to a barrister having told you so. You seem to think that this is sufficient.

One thing we can agree on is the presence of a "looney brigade" around these issues. Where we will possibly disagree is that I see Looneys on both sides, those who defend cats regardless of logic and those who justify killing them for fun. Unfortunately, your refusal to answer simple questions doesn't help in deflecting either sides opinion.

As to you suggestion that I get another lawyers opinion. No thanks. I know the circumstances in which I can defend killing an animal (not that I have ever had to personally) and if it came to it I would be quite happy to do so in court without the assistance of an advocate.

dreamers75

Cheshire Cat wrote: »

Rats carry fleas, too. Once the cats are gone mice and rats will have free run of the grounds and the problems will be even bigger!

No its ok to kill rats but not cats seemingly.

Discodog

dreamers75 wrote: »

No its ok to kill rats but not cats seemingly.

The cats may be someone's pet whereas the rats aren't.

Sponge Bob

Feral cats are not protected but there is no obligation to kill them if present on your premises as there is with Rats and Mice. They fall between protection legislation and pest control regulation, eg nowhere.

The only protection a Feral Cat has is protection from being used in Animal Experimentation if trapped.

gozunda

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Feral cats are not protected but there is no obligation to kill them if present on your premises as there is with Rats and Mice. They fall between protection legislation and pest control regulation, eg nowhere.
The only protection a Feral Cat has is protection from being used in Animal Experimentation if trapped.

Such animals of domestic origin are correctly referred to as straying or abandoned nimals - there is no legal definition of cats as "feral"

The law of animal trespass under legislation covers civil liability for animals that stray onto other property where damage is caused.

The humane killing of sick or injured animals is normally confined to those who may deal with such animals on a fairly regular basis. Examples would include veterinary surgeons, ISPCA inspectors, etc

It is incorrect to say cats as a species are not 'protected'. Dogs, cats cows, budgies and hamsters and all other animals of domestic origin cannot be defined as 'protected' species. There are certain species of Native wildlife are legally "protected". This link provides details on native wildlife that is protected

Authority may be required to kill animals which fall outside the scope of usual types of game or vermin, for example, feral goat or wild boar

The term "game" covers certain birds and animals that may be shot for food and sport. Apart from deer which have defined controls, these may include rabbit, hare, pheasant, partridge, grouse, woodcock and other game birds. Species that are destructive to some farming and hunting activities may include animals such as fox, rabbit, mink, brown rat, and grey squirrel, as well as some birds.

The slaughtering of amimals for human consumption is controled under specific regulations

Straying and abandoned animals of domestic origin may be subject to local authoitiy bye laws under national legislation.
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Sponge Bob

gozunda wrote: »

Such animals of domestic origin are correctly referred to as straying animals - there is no legal definition of cats as "feral"

The law of animal trespass under legislation covers civil liability for animals that stray onto other property where damage is caused.

I said they fell NOWHERE. The feral/stray distinction is hairsplitting.

The law of animal trespass only applies if you own and by implication should control an animal. feral cats are unowned and uncontrolled and animal trespass is not applicable.

The Protection of animals acts 1965 and 1911 ( read together) oblige one to care for an animal where one is:

"the owner or having charge or control of any animal shall without reasonable cause or excuse abandon it, whether permanently or not, in circumstances likely to cause it unnecessary suffering, or cause or procure or, being the owner, permit it to be so abandoned"

This makes it difficult to frame a definition of feral/stray that does not include the Traditional Galway Wandering Tomcat who could be out there shagging for days....picking up fleas and despicable feline whatnots down the hospital even.

Mandatory Microchipping was introduced for dogs in Northern Ireland, it should be widened to all dogs and all domestic cats north and south.

We should also have a national control policy for Feral cats, be that TNR or fractional destruction along with TNR .....eg what would happen if feral cats habitually predated on nesting Corncrakes for example.

We have no policy for dealing with them and we do not legally acknowledge their existence or the problems they cause in certain cases. TNR policies, over time, will have an effect. It will take around 10 years to work noticeably though.

I'd start with microchipping rather than demonstrating outside the Regional Hospital myself.

gozunda

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I said they fell NOWHERE. The feral/stray distinction is hairsplitting.

No it is not - there is no defined 'feral' status for cats anywhere. My point is that they currently have the same status as other staying / abandoned animals of domestic origin whose owners cannot be located.

The law of animal trespass only applies if you own and by implication should control an animal. feral cats are unowned and uncontrolled and animal trespass is not applicable.

Abandoned or staying animals including cats are included under this legislation. Any animal whose owners cannot be located fall under the remit of LA bye laws

The Protection of animals acts 1965 and 1911 ( read together) oblige one to care for an animal where one is:

"the owner or having charge or control of any animal shall without reasonable cause or excuse abandon it, whether permanently or not, in circumstances likely to cause it unnecessary suffering, or cause or procure or, being the owner, permit it to be so abandoned"

This makes it difficult to frame a definition of feral/stray that does not include the Traditional Galway Wandering Tomcat who could be out there shagging for days....picking up fleas and despicable feline whatnots down the hospital even.

You like cats then?

Mandatory Microchipping was introduced for dogs in Northern Ireland, it should be widened to all dogs and all domestic cats north and south.

We should also have a national control policy for Feral cats, be that TNR or fractional destruction along with TNR .....eg what would happen if feral cats habitually predated on nesting Corncrakes for example.

I believe the reduction in Corncrake numbers has been largely due to a change in agricultural practices. Not too sure we can blame that traditional Galway wandering Tom. But yes I agree there needs to care and management of abandoned animals.

We have no policy for dealing with them and we do not legally acknowledge their existence or the problems they cause in certain cases. TNR policies, over time, will have an effect. It will take around 10 years to work noticeably though.

I quite agree

I'd start with microchipping rather than demonstrating outside the Regional Hospital myself.

Fair enough.