Grandouet

Huntley

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Might aswell get a thread going on this beast.

Personally I think Grandouet is the 2013 Champion Hurdler. He has an amazing engine on him with a sensational cruising speed. He will always be suited by flat tracks but he strengthened considerably last year and demolished any qualms about his ability to get up the hill when winning the Bula last year.

The ground is a worry tomorrow but I have no doubt he is a better animal than Rock on Ruby and that muppet Zarkandar and will prove that over the course of the season.

Loyalty is key in this game and I'm all in with this machine.

(I think he would win the Arkle backwards aswell for what it's worth but can't see connections going that route after he wins the Champion this year.)

mailburner

Huntley wrote: »

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that muppet Zarkandar

lol,
im on the muppet tomorrow
I don't see grand giving weight and a beating to zark and i think
he will be looking at zarkandars backside yet again
With the ground being a worry as you say its hard to see
him giving weight away also

Over the course of the season i do think grand will go on to
much greater things though

ft9

Ground was a concern for me too regarding Grandouet. Today I read somewhere Barry said it's ideal ground for him and that he's done nice pieces of work, and had a good blowout last Friday.

He will be a major player in the CH come March, Imo would have beaten ROR last year had he not got that infection, but that's nothing but speculation now at this stage.

He paid for Christmas last year and hopefully does the same this year.

Huntley, have you taken anything on him for the CH before the price contracts tomorrow?

Huntley

Huntley wrote: »

.......... but I have no doubt he is a better animal than Rock on Ruby and that muppet Zarkandar and will prove that over the course of the season.

Loyalty is key in this game and I'm all in with this machine.

........

Only came in to this forum just now to see what folks think of Rock on Ruby for tomorrow

I think RoR will win tomorrow, I don't rate Zarkandar anywhere near as good as the betting for the race tomorrow suggests, if RoR is available at 5/2 I'll be backing

I think 5/2 about either RoR or Grandouet offers great value due to the short price Zarkander seems likely to go off at.

Huntley

ft9 wrote: »

Huntley, have you taken anything on him for the CH before the price contracts tomorrow?

No, I'm just going to back him to the hilt in his races.

I think if he is going to be beat this season it will be tomorrow. Not sure why Barry thinks the ground will be ideal, if it was a quick surface they would be lucky to get a sniff of his tail.

Still hopeful he will beat the back off them all the same.

James - All about what you think is the likely winner mate, if that price does it for you I wouldn't put you off.

finbarrk

The OP was going well until he/she said 'that muppet Zarkander'.

3ndahalfof6

I will be having a few EW on ONE COOL SHABRA for the crack like (in case something insane happens, like 2 of the top three in the market taking each other out of the race)

ROCK ON RUBY I think will perform on the heavy ground better than GRANDOUET and is up for any battle, so I will be throwing a few on ROCK ON RUBY

but don't forget ONE COOL SHABRA once again top horses running and only 7 runners, takes value out of the race for me.

Johner

Grandouet is a machine. Even with it being his first run I think he will win well today.

handsomecake

Who's the muppet now

ft9

handsomecake wrote: »

Who's the muppet now

If those 2 met again next month grandouet would piss all over him.

handsomecake

ft9 wrote: »

If those 2 met again next month grandouet would piss all over him.

when someone calls a horse a muppet in the opening post they deserve to be pulled on it end of.

dont be mentioning future races.i didnt see any disclaimers in the OP

Morgans

Maybe, but they wont pay out on those who backed Grandouet today. I think that the winner is underrated and was cleverly punted by people today. (Not by me) but his attitude won him that race.

Huntley

handsomecake wrote: »

dont be mentioning future races.i didnt see any disclaimers in the OP

You need to look harder then.

Huntley wrote: »

I think if he is going to be beat this season it will be tomorrow.

Huntley wrote: »

The ground is a worry tomorrow but I have no doubt he is a better animal than Rock on Ruby and that muppet Zarkandar and will prove that over the course of the season.

handsomecake wrote: »

Who's the muppet now

As I said, I think Grandouet will prove to be a better animal over the course of the season.

Zarkandar won that race because it became a stamina contest, it doesn't surprise me that he won but he isn't a Champion Hurdler in a million years.

He won't beat Grandouet again this season.

Morgans

But backing him to the hilt in all his races is still the plan.

He is 0 for 3 against Zarkandar.

handsomecake

Huntley wrote: »

Zarkandar won that race because it became a stamina contest

of course, thats why ruby rode him up near the front. its not cheating to turn it into the stamina contest.

zarkandar was first off the bridle and grafted all the way.

for what its worth ,i agree with a lot of your points but when you call a horse a muppet and say your going "all in" and he gets beat your bound to be pulled on it.

if i didnt ,someone else would have.

mailburner

mailburner wrote: »

im on the muppet tomorrow
I don't see grand giving weight and a beating to zark and i think
he will be looking at zarkandars backside yet again
With the ground being a worry as you say its hard to see
him giving weight away also

go wan you muppet :pac:

today was zarks day to be fair and although he won't be a
pushover for the ch it's hard to see him finishing ahead of
both the other two off level weights and different ground

if fly is 100% he should take care of the three of them imo

Morgans

I think the fundamental mistake is that "loyalty is key".

You bet on the horse that will be best on the specific day. There are few bookies taking bets that Grandouet will prove himself better than Rock on Ruby and Zarkandar over the year.

handsomecake

mailburner wrote: »

go wan you muppet :pac:

today was zarks day to be fair and although he won't be a
pushover for the ch it's hard to see him finishing ahead of
both the other two off level weights and different ground

if fly is 100% he should take care of the three of them imo

good post. reasonable points.

i think ill still back zarkandar out of loyalty ( albeit a foolish way to gamble). hes won me a nice few quid over the last year

mailburner

handsomecake wrote: »

good post. reasonable points.

i think ill still back zarkandar out of loyalty ( albeit a foolish way to gamble). hes won me a nice few quid over the last year

if i get 9s or above i'd back him ew myself
i can't recall the horse ever letting me down

Huntley

Morgans wrote: »

But backing him to the hilt in all his races is still the plan.

He is 0 for 3 against Zarkandar.

Yes.

Excuses for all three in reality, idiotic to take results at face value.

1. Zarkandar was more forward in the Triumph,
2. 99% sure Grandouet would have beat him had he not been brought down in the juvenile at Aintree at the last.
3. Zarkandar race fit and receiving 4lbs over conditions that emphasized stamina.

It's all here to review at the end of the season anyway. It's not like there is any blurred lines.

handsomecake wrote: »

for what its worth ,i agree with a lot of your points but when you call a horse a muppet and say your going "all in" and he gets beat your bound to be pulled on it.

I still think Zarkandar is a muppet. I wasn't surprised he won today and didn't write him off prior to the race. I did invest heavily in Grandouet, so what? I did highlight that I thought he was vulnerable. If you think I have egg on my face or something you are wrong, I don't.

Morgans wrote: »

I think the fundamental mistake is that "loyalty is key".

As for anyone who questions my gambling techniques, I have two threads in the gambling section for anyone to view should they wish.

Cracking run from Grandouet anyway all things considered.

handsomecake

Huntley wrote: »

If you think I have egg on my face or something you are wrong

Cracking run from Grandouet anyway all things considered.

i dont think you have egg on your face.

it was a cracking run.

Morgans

Huntley wrote: »

Yes.

Excuses for all three in reality, idiotic to take results at face value.

1. Zarkandar was more forward in the Triumph,
2. 99% sure Grandouet would have beat him had he not been brought down in the juvenile at Aintree at the last.
3. Zarkandar race fit and receiving 4lbs over conditions that emphasized stamina.

The only time I backed Grandouet is in that Aintree race. Thought he was a bet to nothing each way. I think the 99% that he would have won is completely misleading. Zarkander responds to pressure and had Grandouet fell at the second last today, Im sure you would have been 99% sure he would have won today as well. I was cursing when he was brought down at Aintree, but looking back now, I think its a 50/50 that he would have won.

He is a strong traveller but there is still a huge doubt whether or not he finds as much as he threatens. Give me a tough type like Zarkandar or Countrywide Flame all day every day in the Champion Hurdle. Horses that have the balls for races like the Tote Gold Trophy or the Cesarwitch.

Even after the last today, Grandouet was never going to get past. A stronger pace in the Champion Hurdle will clearly suit. And Zarkander would have beaten him with 4lbs extra today. Conditions suit, and if it came up heavy/soft in the Champion, going to the hilt on Grandouet would still be silly.

But continue reasurring yourself that Zarkandar is a muppet, that Grandouet will prove better. If neither win another race this year, you were wrong to go all in, or bet him to the hilt today.

mailburner

it's hard to criticise a horse like zark imo
when you money is on you know the horse with give all

he might not win a ch but there'll be less heartbreak as he
won't jump the last pulling double like harchibald

mdwexford

Huntley wrote: »

I still think Zarkandar is a muppet. I wasn't surprised he won today and didn't write him off prior to the race. I did invest heavily in Grandouet, so what? I did highlight that I thought he was vulnerable. If you think I have egg on my face or something you are wrong, I don't.


As for anyone who questions my gambling techniques, I have two threads in the gambling section for anyone to view should they wish.

Cracking run from Grandouet anyway all things considered.

Not sure what calling him a muppet is supposed to mean, hes clearly a high class hurdler with a fantastic attitude.

Gambling section is generally for "special" people I thought.

Grandouet's run was ok, any less than that would have been poor.

klairondavis

If Hurricane Fly is back to his best he should take the Champion Hurdle. Big if for a 9yo Montjeu though. Zarkandar, Rock On Ruby and Grandouet are all nice horses but none of them have that real star quality. Oscar Whiskey was the best hurdler on show today.

UrbanSea

I think it's dangerous to assume that Grandouet will beat him next time out just because he hadn't a run. Henderson was never going to have him half fit going for the race today.

Morgans makes a good point. Zarkandar is a real battler, love to see that in a horse. Not sure why people keep writing off the horse, if he went and won a Champion there'd be excuses fired left right and centre

hucklebuck

It's ridiculous calling Zarkandar a muppet and folly to suggest he has no chance in the Champion, plenty of tough horses who lack an overdrive have won Champion Hurdles and in the last two years Peddlers and Overturn have been there or there about.

Huntley wrote: »

Zarkandar won that race because it became a stamina contest, it doesn't surprise me that he won but he isn't a Champion Hurdler in a million years.

He won't beat Grandouet again this season.

He only won it because it turned into a stamina race is a stupid comment. If you have a stamina horse you ride him so stamina comes in to it and to try blunt the speed of the horses with a turbo.

You can be sure they will ride him the same come March too.

RichieLawlor

Pretty sure Zarkandar is just better. But this isn't a Zarkandar vs Grandouet thread. They will both win plenty of races.

Henderson saying they are going straight to Cheltenham with the horse basically gives him zero chance in the champion in my mind.

mdwexford

mdwexford wrote: »

........

Gambling section is generally for "special" people I thought.............

What do you mean by that?

It's hardly Huntley's problem that most of the challenges/logs etc end in a loss and display lack of knowledge, basic gambling smarts and often common sense.

His threads were quite profitable iirc.

Harry Angstrom

Huntley wrote: »

I still think Zarkandar is a muppet.

I wouldn't mind owning a muppet who could win a Triumph Hurdle, a Grade 1 at Aintree, a Tote Gold Trophy and a Bula Hurdle.

RichieLawlor

Huntley wrote: »

Yes.

Excuses for all three in reality, idiotic to take results at face value.

1. Zarkandar was more forward in the Triumph,
2. 99% sure Grandouet would have beat him had he not been brought down in the juvenile at Aintree at the last.
3. Zarkandar race fit and receiving 4lbs over conditions that emphasized stamina.

Its laughable that you just completely make up stuff to suit your argument.

So, Zarkandar, a horse who hasn't seen a hurdle a month before the festival and had one run around Kempton (polar opposite to Cheltenham) was more forward than a horse who had been on the go over hurdles since the end of October and had reasonable course form with the would be triumph favourite.

Lol.

99% would have won at Aintree, lol. I'll leave it at that.

And today, he didn't lack for fitness, he got there cruising, and has hammered the reigning champion hurdler. Grandouet has run the race of his life today and wasn't good enough.

What's the next excuse. Look I've no doubt that Grandouet is open to vast improvement and may improve past Zarkandar, maybe, but you just refuse to be wrong and thus ridicule yourself with this nonsense.

We all make outlandish statements at times and end up looking silly, but I'm sure you'll be back on to try disprove my arguements.

3ndahalfof6

RichieLawlor wrote: »

Its laughable that you just completely make up stuff to suit your argument.

So, Zarkandar, a horse who hasn't seen a hurdle a month before the festival and had one run around Kempton (polar opposite to Cheltenham) was more forward than a horse who had been on the go over hurdles since the end of October and had reasonable course form with the would be triumph favourite.

Lol.

99% would have won at Aintree, lol. I'll leave it at that.

And today, he didn't lack for fitness, he got there cruising, and has hammered the reigning champion hurdler. Grandouet has run the race of his life today and wasn't good enough.




What's the next excuse. Look I've no doubt that Grandouet is open to vast improvement and may improve past Zarkandar, maybe, but you just refuse to be wrong and thus ridicule yourself with this nonsense.

We all make outlandish statements at times and end up looking silly, but I'm sure you'll be back on to try disprove my arguements.

Time will tell.

Colonel Sanders

The thing about needing the run today, he'd had a race course gallop and on C4 all the paddock judges commented how well he looked pre-race

On the other hand the Bula was run over a different course to the champion (much more of a test). Zarkander is surely more of a stayer than Grandouet so would have been suited more by this. Add in that the bookmaker who appears to rarely get it wrong with Chemical's big guns 1st time out (Hills) were top price Grandouet this morning & Zarkander received 4lbs it's very possible placings may be reversed in March.

The champion hurdle looks wide open this year. Will be interesting to see how Darlan gets on if he takes his chance next week at Ascot. He's the one horse we've yet to see who could blow the market wide open. Although his Cheltenham form from last December is anything but inspiring & he was beaten there in the supreme too

The ground today is unlikely to be similar to what's underhoof in March too.

ft9

Colonel Sanders wrote: »

The thing about needing the run today, he'd had a race course gallop and on C4 all the paddock judges commented how well he looked pre-race

On the other hand the Bula was run over a different course to the champion (much more of a test). Zarkander is surely more of a stayer than Grandouet so would have been suited more by this. Add in that the bookmaker who appears to rarely get it wrong with Chemical's big guns 1st time out (Hills) were top price Grandouet this morning & Zarkander received 4lbs it's very possible placings may be reversed in March.

The champion hurdle looks wide open this year. Will be interesting to see how Darlan gets on if he takes his chance next week at Ascot. He's the one horse we've yet to see who could blow the market wide open. Although his Cheltenham form from last December is anything but inspiring & he was beaten there in the supreme too

If you think a racecourse gallop can compare to race fit you are seriously disillusioned.

A lot of people here could learn a thing or two about buying/breeding, paying for and training a racehorse.
It's quite obvious, to me anyway who has any idea about the game from reading posts the last few days about trainers sending horses to other yards, gallops accounting for fitness, and not specifically you colonel, but the majority of people on here.

And he looked so well because he's a different class, which will prove in time.

RichieLawlor

ft9 wrote: »

If you think a racecourse gallop can compare to race fit you are seriously disillusioned.

A lot of people here could learn a thing or two about buying/breeding, paying for and training a racehorse.
It's quite obvious, to me anyway who has any idea about the game from reading posts the last few days about trainers sending horses to other yards, gallops accounting for fitness, and not specifically you colonel, but the majority of people on here.

And he looked so well because he's a different class, which will prove in time.

This coming from someone who claims Sprinter Sacre is the best ever based on winning the worst Tingle Creek chase ever run?

mdwexford

RoverJames wrote: »

What do you mean by that?

It's hardly Huntley's problem that most of the challenges/logs etc end in a loss and display lack of knowledge, basic gambling smarts and often common sense.

His threads were quite profitable iirc.

Never said it was his problem.

Just any thread I have been linked to there over the past couple of years has been to laugh at clueless cabbages who haven't a notion what's going on.

Actually just noticed on Huntleys OP, loyalty is key in this game?

Either he is levelling or he is bonkers because loyalty certainly is not the key to winning money backing horses.

Morgans

ft9 wrote: »

If you think a racecourse gallop can compare to race fit you are seriously disillusioned.

A lot of people here could learn a thing or two about buying/breeding, paying for and training a racehorse.
It's quite obvious, to me anyway who has any idea about the game from reading posts the last few days about trainers sending horses to other yards, gallops accounting for fitness, and not specifically you colonel, but the majority of people on here.

And he looked so well because he's a different class, which will prove in time.

This proving it in time...the bet wasn't on who would prove it in time. It was who would win at Cheltenham yesterday, in that ground, conceding weight, with any fitness worries. He was beaten without any excuse in a clean run race. People are consoling themselves that regardless of the result yesterday that they were still right and will be proved in time.

Zarkandar isn't necessarily the best hurdler that Grandouet will have to beat in the Champion hurdle.

RichieLawlor

I doubt Barry Geraghty will even ride Grandouet in the Champion!

Colonel Sanders

ft9 wrote: »

If you think a racecourse gallop can compare to race fit you are seriously disillusioned.

Trainers are paid to get horses fit & to place them. All the paddock judges on C4 said he didn't want for fitness so I'm not buying any excuse over match fitness. He came to the last with every chance & didn't go by end of story

Trainers bring horses to concert pitch to win 1st time all the time , SS looked very well before last weeks tingle creek (as did Sanctuaire who I backed).

People who backed Grandouet did their dough. They may get it back come March, we'll see. for the time being get over it

hucklebuck

ft9 wrote: »

If you think a racecourse gallop can compare to race fit you are seriously disillusioned.

A lot of people here could learn a thing or two about buying/breeding, paying for and training a racehorse.
It's quite obvious, to me anyway who has any idea about the game from reading posts the last few days about trainers sending horses to other yards, gallops accounting for fitness, and not specifically you colonel, but the majority of people on here.

And he looked so well because he's a different class, which will prove in time.

This is clearly aimed at me and as I stated on the other thread when I posted originally I didn't know Barber owned the yard Fry trains out of. We have already seen two instances of Nicholls having spats with owners and not too long ago Mullins was saying he makes the plans for Quevegas races when asked what the owner wanted to do. I think you could learn a thing or two if you think someone who owns a horse and sends it to a champion trainer tells the champion trainer what to do.

Different class yet beaten three times by the same horse, maybe you have excuses for the three races too.

I can almost predict what will be spouted in the event he does beat Zarkandar one day and any excuse for Zarkandar will be ruled out of hand:rolleyes:

As for people using the ground as an excuse, Zarkandar won't be inconvenienced by quicker ground either.

ft9

I'll hold my hand up I probably was looking for an excuse after backing him yesterday

When we see him in January all will be revealed, I'm not sure what to make of yesterday in reality. I certainly don't think Zarkander is capable of winning a CH, but then again I'd have given 100/1 on ROR winning it. So 0/3 for Grand against Zark certainly doesn't read too well.

I hope my faith will be rewarded nto.

ft9

RichieLawlor wrote: »

This coming from someone who claims Sprinter Sacre is the best ever based on winning the worst Tingle Creek chase ever run?

Wrong.

hucklebuck

Ft I like both Zarkandar and Grandouet as stated in the Bula thread, I thought Zarkandar was the bet before the race, after yesterday I am not sure he can reverse the form in March even with the 4lb swing.

Before the Champion last year I thought Zarkandar was the biggest threat to Hurricane Fly and to my mind Zarkandar is a more polished horse last year. He ran a massive race last year given he was sick 2 weeks before.

They need to ride him to suit his stamina and if they do he will take all the beating in March imo.

Not sure about backing Grandouet blindly to be honest, he ran a very good race yesterday and when he came off the bridle there was no major response.

sting60

Wow what a lot of posting over a three horse race.Zarkandar could not finish better than fifth beaten 6l [running on]good to firm in the last Champion Hurdle and the winner of the Stan James International has only produced one winner in 38 yrs of CH.I believe the CH winner did not run yesterday as I believe Grandouet will find little in a top race of this nature and ROR won a poor CH last year with Overturn [stayer] second and the Fly [not performing] third with the overrated Binocular fourth.Horses that could improve enough to have a say are Cinders and Ashes,Darlan and Hisaabaat.

droidman123

hucklebuck wrote: »

Ft I like both Zarkandar and Grandouet as stated in the Bula thread, I thought Zarkandar was the bet before the race, after yesterday I am not sure he can reverse the form in March even with the 4lb swing.

Before the Champion last year I thought Zarkandar was the biggest threat to Hurricane Fly and to my mind Zarkandar is a more polished horse last year. He ran a massive race last year given he was sick 2 weeks before.

They need to ride him to suit his stamina and if they do he will take all the beating in March imo.

Not sure about backing Grandouet blindly to be honest, he ran a very good race yesterday and when he came off the bridle there was no major response.

7/1 for zarkander for the champion hurdle is a fantastic price, I,m getting on before the price tumbles.this horse has done nothing wrong and will beat grandouet again. Being from the great zarkaver he has the pedigree for great things and has no problems with the Cheltenham hill.next years champion will be run at a furious pace which will suit him.the fly bombed last year with no feasible excuses,may by he just not a Cheltenham horse....beef or salmon anyone??

hucklebuck

sting60 wrote: »

Wow what a lot of posting over a three horse race, containing three of the four market leaders for the champion hurlde

FYP

klairondavis

droidman123 wrote: »

7/1 for zarkander for the champion hurdle is a fantastic price, I,m getting on before the price tumbles.this horse has done nothing wrong and will beat grandouet again. Being from the great zarkaver he has the pedigree for great things and has no problems with the Cheltenham hill.next years champion will be run at a furious pace which will suit him.the fly bombed last year with no feasible excuses,may by he just not a Cheltenham horse....beef or salmon anyone??

I got the impression that Mullins was never too happy with Hurricane Fly last year. Even when he hosed up at Leopardstown he had drifted like a barge on course. His run in the Morgiana was promising. Hopefully he can stay sound this season because there's not a great amount of depth to the hurdling division on yesterday's evidence. Zarkandar was suited to yesterday's test - ground, getting weight and the stiffer new track. I think he will struggle again in the Champion on better ground and on the easier old course. I accept the pace argument but it worked against him last year to an extent. He didn't have the tactical speed to lie up with them at the crucial stage of the race.

Morgans

sting60 wrote: »

Wow what a lot of posting over a three horse race.Zarkandar could not finish better than fifth beaten 6l [running on]good to firm in the last Champion Hurdle and the winner of the Stan James International has only produced one winner in 38 yrs of CH.I believe the CH winner did not run yesterday as I believe Grandouet will find little in a top race of this nature and ROR won a poor CH last year with Overturn [stayer] second and the Fly [not performing] third with the overrated Binocular fourth.Horses that could improve enough to have a say are Cinders and Ashes,Darlan and Hisaabaat.

Everyone cherrypicking the form. So basically, none of the first four in last years Champion should have won last year with Hurricane Fly disappointing. Dismissed as stayers and overrated. Yet they all were there with a chance turning in. In fact, they were the only ones there with a chance turning in. Rock On Ruby should have won the Christmas Hurdle also last year. People get very forgetful and dismissive. Seems no one can win.

None of the Bula contenders will win either.

Hopes pinned on last year's Supreme hurdle form with more holes than any I can remember. What are the stats for Supreme Novices winning the following year's Champion Hurdle if you are dismissing the Bula form using that basis?

Rock on Ruby is a stayer, Punjabi lacks the class, Katchit is a 5yo, Hurricane Fly is a montjeu, Sublimity no where good enough. Hardy Eustace is a stayer, Rooster Booster is a handicapper. All off-hand reasons for dismissing the winners of the race in the past decade.

The way people are so certain about things on here, no one will win it. For what its worth, I think Grandouet is one of the likelier contenders but Countrywide Flame is being overlooked for no good reason.

ft9

One of the following for me, Hurricane Fly, Countrywide Flame, Grandouet or Binocular.

droidman123

well that really narrows it down