Holiday pay on sick leave..?

adash10

Hi all, i am new to this and am looking for some advice on my current work situation, i am a chef in a family run hotel, i recently had my appendix removed and was deemed unfit to work for 2 weeks.

However while i was recovering at home the manager took the obligation to put me down for 4 days holidays i was due before the end of the year(31st Dec).

i was paid for them which is fair enough be it legal or illegal i kind of needed the cash to my discretion...

BUT now that i am better and have returned to work gradually, it clicked with me that those 4 days holidays he gave me were unfair as i was in bed recovering and i planned to take them around the 16-20th of Dec to see family and do shopping etc but he says im not entitled to them now that he payed me!! which i didnt even request to be given them because i was ill!

is this fair or am i whitin my right to take the 4 days i was due off(without pay)??

any help/advice is realy appreciated.

Peace

Mrs OBumble

Legally, they should have just put you on unpaid leave while you were off.

They probably thought they were doing you a favour by letting you use paid leave instead.

Re whether you can take those days: well firstly understand that leave, paid or unpaid, is at management's discretion. Even if you have paid days available, you can only use them on days when management agrees.

And I'd have to say that personally a hotel worker looking for time off before Christmas ... just after they've had two weeks out sick ... don't think I'd be approving that if I was the boss.

Gee_G

Yeah I'd agree that your employers probably thought that they were doing you a favour, but they should have asked you if you wanted to use your holidays.
Did you have that time booked off to take the four days holidays? If not, maybe they didn't want you losing out on the holidays you were owed if they had to be used before the year is out!
Also, they must be very obliging employers, I've worked in hotels around Christmas and we were not allowed even mention the word holiday over the festive period!

adash10

thank you for your feed back....

i understand the point of hols over xmas but thats not the point im making....(its not even that busy)

i was unfit to work because my appendix had to be removed, it was out of my control. id understand if i caused injury myself and was unfit to work but that wasnt the case...

the fact of the matter is those 4 days i was owed were paid as holidays which is fine BUT what good are they if im lying in bed unable to move or struggle going to the loo?

i dont have time to visit family nor do i have time to do my xmas shopping because i already ''took'' them when i never asked for them or suggested to put them down while i was absent from work...

do i have a case to say i want those days unpaid before the end of the year as it is my legal right??

peace

davo10

OP sick leave is unpaid, you are entitled to 20 days holidays per year assuming you have worked the hours necessary to accrue these. Holiday leave must be taken during the calendar year unless there is a provision in your contract to carry them over. The dates are at the discretion of your employer and you cannot be paid enlieu of untaken holiday days.

Therefore, if you have 4 days left over, you have not given notice of intention to take them, there is no agreement with your employer to take the specific dates you want and due to the time if year and the sector you work in, you unlikely to get permission to take the holidays you want, it's possible that you would miss out altogether on your holiday days. Employers are required to ensure employees take their due leave but in your case your employer may have wanted you to take them during the time you were absent from work, not because you were absent from work though.

You effectively got 4 days pay that your employer did not have to give you, and you are by no means entitled to take the days off you want on the dates you want. Sound employer.

Mrs OBumble

OP, firstly understand that we're not lawyers, and we cannot give legal advice here - please read the charter to understand that.

You are right that you do have a legal right to take a certain number of days of paid leave during the year. But the timing of those days is totally at your employer's discretion, not yours. (Most employers will let you suggest when you'd like to take them - but none will let you demand certain days). You do not have a right to demand days off at any time.

Have you actually talked to your employer about the possibility of taking four days of unpaid leave? Sounds to me like that is your first step.

adash10

Davo 10

you are making a fair point....but just before i fell ill i had planned to hand in my holiday application form for the 4 days i was owed....as i was sick all i could do was pick up the phone to tell my employer i would be absent from work for 2 weeks...

yes it may be sound of him BUT it was totally illegal as i was on SICK LEAVE and to be paid for holidays while INCAPABLE of work is breaking the law therefore i should be entitled to take the days i was owed off and without pay as he considered my sick 2 weeks off 'part' of my holidays....

if you look at it from my point of view i worked hard for these holidays, i fell ill and now i wont see these days off only the cash(which is fair enough) but i needed the time off for personal reasons...it is xmas you know

peace

adash10

yes i do i just thought somebody might have a knowledge or experience of this situation i am in....

yes i know i cant demand days off but what can i do when i am sick at home...there not holidays so why should i be told they are and not even to my knowledge...the employer can tell you i need you to take them before the year is out as it is the law but not notifying me??

gozunda

OP - is your employer Scrooge by any chance?

As pointed out - making an employee take verified sick days as holidays is ILLEGAL!

Btw Some companies are not complete b^stards and do pay for a certain amount of sick days. Otherwise they should be given as unpaid and thevOP would be able to claim illness benefit for any extended sickness period. By declaring the employees sick days as holidays there could be serious issues here for both the employer and employee.

And we wonder why the government is attempting to introduce employer responsibility for actually looking after their employees whilst they are out sick??


Employers must arrange holidays with employees. The period of notice for holidays should be stipulated in your contract. Some employers also do allow employees to carry over holidays where employees have not been able to take them for instance due to Illness.

Why would an employee 'want a person to take holidays' when they are out sick? The OP has clearly said he was hoping out to take some time around Christmas and would not have needed to carry them over anyway. Any reasonable employer would do this.

Scrooge is a 'sound employer'? - I don't think so.

OP - If your employer refuses to reassign your days I would strongly suggest seeking professional advice on this matter.

davo10

gozunda wrote: »

OP - is your employer Scrooge by any chance?

As pointed out - making an employee take verified sick days as holidays is ILLEGAL!

Btw Some companies are not complete b^stards and do pay for a certain amount of sick days. Otherwise they should be given as unpaid and thevOP would be able to claim illness benefit for any extended sickness period. By declaring the employees sick days as holidays there could be serious issues here for both the employer and employee.

And we wonder why the government is attempting to introduce employer responsibility for actually looking after their employees whilst they are out sick??


Employers must arrange holidays with employees. The period of notice for holidays should be stipulated in your contract. Some employers also do allow employees to carry over holidays where employees have not been able to take them for instance due to Illness.

Why would an employee 'want a person to take holidays' when they are out sick? The OP has clearly said he was hoping out to take some time around Christmas and would not have needed to carry them over anyway. Any reasonable employer would do this.

Scrooge is a 'sound employer'? - I don't think so.

OP - If your employer refuses to reassign your days I would strongly suggest seeking professional advice on this matter.

You've missed the point. OP has not given notice of intention to take holidays nor recieved agreement from his employer, he is most likely to have needed to give a certain amount if notice eg 2weeks of his intention to take holidays. His employer is neither required to give him holiday leave at this time of year, nor and this is the important point, is he legally required to pay for days not taken.

The OP could end up with no holiday leave nor holiday pay and the employer would be well within his/her rights to do this. By the way, most employers do not pay sick leave nor allow employees to carry over days. You cannot save days until Christmas and then demand them off just because you are entitled to them, no one would work at Christmas if that were the case.

gozunda

davo10 wrote: »

You've missed the point. OP has not given notice of intention to take holidays nor recieved agreement from his employer, he is most likely to have needed to give a certain amount if notice eg 2weeks of his intention to take holidays. His employer is neither required to give him holiday leave at this time of year, nor and this is the important point, is he legally required to pay for days not taken.

The OP could end up with no holiday leave nor holiday pay and the employer would be well within his/her rights to do this. By the way, most employers do not pay sick leave nor allow employees to carry over days. You cannot save days until Christmas and then demand them off just because you are entitled to them, no one would work at Christmas if that were the case.

No Dave I did not miss the point

What the employer did is illegal

His illness has resulted in his employer using the opportunity to remove his right to enter into discussion for holidays

His employer has negated his employees right to illness benefit by claiming he was 'on holiday"

It is this type of shabby and blatantly nasty type of behaviour that results in employers attracting awful reputations for conditions of work.

The employer appears not to have entered into any discussion with the employee On how he could facilitate both his and his employees interests

Employees are human, they have lives - they are not automen to be exploited as the employer decides.

davo10

gozunda wrote: »

No Dave I did not miss the point

What the employer did is illegal

His illness has resulted in his employer using the opportunity to remove his right to enter into discussion for holidays

His employer has negated his employees right to illness benefit by claiming he was 'on holiday"

It is this type of shabby and blatantly nasty type of behaviour that results in employers attracting awful reputations for conditions of work.

The employer appears not to have entered into any discussion with the employee On how he could facilitate both his and his employees interests

Employees are human, they have lives - they are not automen to be exploited as the employer decides.

I would suspect OP wages are higher than illness benefit paid. OP can still discuss holidays with employer but the employer is not required to facilitate him at such short notice. I think the OPs main issue is that he wants to take four days holidays on the 16th, today is the 15th, his employer has no obligation to agree to this nor anytime before year end, Usually employees are required to give a minimum 2 weeks notice of intention to take holiday leave, OP should have informed his employer on a date before he became sick if he knew he wanted these days off.

Again gozunda, OPs employer does not have to give him holiday nor pay as he did not give necessary notice. Employees are people, employers are also people, who have a business to run and a chef is pretty important to a hotel, particularly this time of year.

gozunda

davo10 wrote: »

I would suspect OP wages are higher than illness benefit paid. OP can still discuss holidays with employer but the employer is not required to facilitate him at such short notice. I think the OPs main issue is that he wants to take four days holidays on the 16th, today is the 15th, his employer has no obligation to agree to this nor anytime before year end, Usually employees are required to give a minimum 2 weeks notice of intention to take holiday leave, OP should have informed his employer on a date before he became sick if he knew he wanted these days off.

Again gozunda, OPs employer does not have to give him holiday nor pay as he did not give necessary notice. Employees are people, employers are also people, who have a business to run and a chef is pretty important to a hotel, particularly this time of year.

Dave

The Employer clearly broke employment law in relation to designating holidays whilst the employee was off sick

Illness benefit is paid for days on certified sick leave that ARE NOT paid by the employer. So the OP wages could not be higher than illness benefit paid if no wages were paid. I believe the OP said the 'holidays' were paid. I am unsure what happened to the remainder of his sick leave tbh

An agreement on holidays should be made between the employer and the employee - Considering that the OP has been sick - there is some expectation that the employer to be at least somewhat accomodating and for him definitly not to break the law with regard to the employees employment rights.

Even if this was not possible due to the unexpected nature of the illness the employer could have accomodated the employee in some regard. How did the employer manage when the employee was out sick?

I dont believe the OP knew he was going out sick. Are you suggesting he should be penalised by his employer because of this?

Neither do we know when OP was off sick or what his specific contract is - so it is pointless to use your assumptions. Perhaps the OP can clarify these issues better.

Employees are people, sh1te happens, so at least treat people with some decency and within the law.

Ceepo

gozunda wrote: »

The employer appears not to have entered into any discussion with the employee On how he could facilitate both his and his employees interests

.

The employee does not seem to have entered into a discussion on when they wanted Holidays, They had a phone conversation to discuss time off due to illness, it might have been a good idea to tell the employer of there holiday intentions at the same time, if they could not do so in person,

Employer is not telepathic

Yes the employer should not have paid him Holiday pay at a time when they were on sick leave. But they might have felt they were doing the right thing, paying them when they were out of work

It seem to me that there is a big COMMUNICATION PROBLEM, and could/should have been sorted out before now

davo10

The amount paid by welfare would be less that that which was paid by his employer, so OP was better off financially considering his employer does not have to give him holiday between now and year end as there was no notice given. Of course I did not say that OP knew when he was going to be sick, what I am saying is that it is standard to give a minimum two weeks notice to your employer of when you would like to take holidays, taking this into account, OP should have informed his employer at the end of November, which was before he got sick. The onus is on the employer to ensure the employee takes holiday leave, something they may not have been able to do while OP was out sick.

Many employers in retail/entertainment industry will not allow staff take holiday leave during the busy Christmas period, if days are still untaken by the beginning of December, it is common for employers to inform staff and request they take them before the Christmas rush, this is the time OP was off, so as Bumble said, the employer may have thought they were doing OP a favour. OP can always go to the employer, tell them he did not want these four days to be designated as holidays, return the money paid by deduction from next pay packet, ask for days off, get refused as he did not give required notice, and get neither time off nor payment.

Gee_G

Did the OP say he was on illness benefit while he was off?

gozunda

Ceepo wrote: »

The employee does not seem to have entered into a discussion on when they wanted Holidays, They had a phone conversation to discuss time off due to illness, it might have been a good idea to tell the employer of there holiday intentions at the same time, if they could not do so in person,
Employer is not telepathic
Yes the employer should not have paid him Holiday pay at a time when they were on sick leave. But they might have felt they were doing the right thing, paying them when they were out of work

It seem to me that there is a big COMMUNICATION PROBLEM, and could/should have been sorted out before now

Jeez how about laying off the OP for being out sick - in hospital - the last thing I'm sure he was thinking about was holidays and the facts that his employer was going to shaft him. The employer presumably has a brain - they should use it and plan accordingly

It matters not what the employer thought - He is BREAKING THE LAW

The employer is in the position of authority here and thus the employee
is at a disadvantage. The OP was genuinely sick and yet there appears to have been no allowance for the fact that the employee might need some time out after...simply
unbelievable

davo10 wrote: »

The amount paid by welfare would be less that that which was paid by his employer, so OP was better off financially considering his employer does not have to give him holiday between now and year end as there was no notice given. Of course I did not say that OP knew when he was going to be sick, what I am saying is that it is standard to give a minimum two weeks notice to your employer of when you would like to take holidays, taking this into account, OP should have informed his employer at the end of November, which was before he got sick. The onus is on the employer to ensure the employee takes holiday leave, something they may not have been able to do while OP was out sick.

Where does the OP say he was paid for all days off sick???? His "holidays"
were paid but I see no other detail in the OPs post

When should employers be so inconsiderate and choose to act illegaly in that
not only would they actually break employment law to impose
holidays on an employee off sick???

You are presuming that the OP somehow knew he was going out sick. what the fek? Are you really serious? Employers should at least and try tobe considerate to their employees circumstances. Employment should foster a relationship between employee and employer and not
what amounts to illegal and inconsiderate behaviour

Dave if you are an employer - you are fairly extreme in rather
unsympathetic attitudes to your employees

Employers in retail/entertainment industry will not allow staff take holiday leave during the busy Christmas period, if days are still untaken by the beginning of December, it is common for employers to inform staff and request they take them before the Christmas rush, this is the time OP was off, so as Bumble said, the employer may have thought they were doing OP a favour. OP can always go to the employer, tell them he did not want these four days to be designated as holidays, return the money paid by deduction from next pay packet, ask for days off, get refused as he did not give required notice, and get neither time off nor payment.

Well there is no detail that the employer laid down any such stipulation prior to the OP going out sick. "favour"? The employer was trying to pull a fast one imo

The Employer could get reported, fined and a case taken against him for unfair employment practices all because he appears he does
not to wish to behave with consideration towards an employee who had been off sick

I am sorry but some of the responses really shows the arrogance that some in this country show towards employees

Very disturbing imo

Ceepo

gozunda wrote: »

Jeez how about laying off the OP for being out sick - in hospital - the last thing I'm sure he was thinking about was holidays and the facts that his employer was going to shaft him. The employer presumably has a brain - they should use it and plan accordingly

It matters not what the employer thought - He is BREAKING THE LAW

The employer is in the position of authority here and thus the employee
is at a disadvantage. The OP was genuinely sick and yet there appears to have been no allowance for the fact that the employee might need some time out after...simply
unbelievable

A simple phone call form both parties would have sorted things out,

Employer, Hi, I am going to pay you the 4 day hoildays you are owed, is that ok ?. Employee Yes?No.

Employee, Hi, Is it ok to take them 4 days holidays in dates xx, to xx or dates xx and xx and xx and xx, Employer Yes?No.

adash10

You see guys it was the GENERAL MANAGER of the hotel who put me down for the holidays when usually i report to my HEAD CHEF....even my head chef was unaware i was down for paid holidays on my sick leave...it not about the cash etc thats not the point im making....

to simplify it up LEGALLY am i entitled to take my holidays Unpaid?? i mean i was suffering at home and unfit to work or even attend college......how is it deemed fair that i should just shut up and accept that i was ill for 2 weeks and 4 days of those was( to the GM was part of my holidays) when i consider holidays making the most of the time you are given off to do things in my case i wasnt because i could barely move from bed!

and to clear things up......I havent approached him fully because when i do i want to have a s#it load of ammo(knowledege) at my disposal... i know he broke the law but i cant just walk upto him and go 'what you did was illegal' without having some facts or rights i can list off...

Knowledge is power

Gee_G

adash10 wrote: »

You see guys it was the GENERAL MANAGER of the hotel who put me down for the holidays when usually i report to my HEAD CHEF....even my head chef was unaware i was down for paid holidays on my sick leave...it not about the cash etc thats not the point im making....

to simplify it up LEGALLY am i entitled to take my holidays Unpaid?? i mean i was suffering at home and unfit to work or even attend college......how is it deemed fair that i should just shut up and accept that i was ill for 2 weeks and 4 days of those was( to the GM was part of my holidays) when i consider holidays making the most of the time you are given off to do things in my case i wasnt because i could barely move from bed!

and to clear things up......I havent approached him fully because when i do i want to have a s#it load of ammo(knowledege) at my disposal... i know he broke the law but i cant just walk upto him and go 'what you did was illegal' without having some facts or rights i can list off...

Knowledge is power

This argument is obviously going to keep going around in circles here get onto citizens advice monday morning!

adash10

and to answer no i did NOT go on illness benefit as i receive a grant for college!

Well to sum up communication issues the GM of the Hotel is there over 10 years...im sure he knows how to inform employees that he is putting them down for holidays by picking up the phone, why should i deal with my recovery and work matters while recovering??he technically saw it as an advantage to him to put me down for the 4 days i was owed as i was going to be out for 2 weeks and as i stated before....its not even that busy this time of year.

adash10

Ive emailed N.E.R.A and the Rights Commissioner i just thought maybe somebody here might have a knowledge or experience in what i should do or any ideas of my entitlements...

thank you for your posts though.

Ceepo

adash10 wrote: »

You see guys it was the GENERAL MANAGER of the hotel who put me down for the holidays when usually i report to my HEAD CHEF....even my head chef was unaware i was down for paid holidays on my sick leave...it not about the cash etc thats not the point im making....

to simplify it up LEGALLY am i entitled to take my holidays Unpaid?? i mean i was suffering at home and unfit to work or even attend college......how is it deemed fair that i should just shut up and accept that i was ill for 2 weeks and 4 days of those was( to the GM was part of my holidays) when i consider holidays making the most of the time you are given off to do things in my case i wasnt because i could barely move from bed!

and to clear things up......I havent approached him fully because when i do i want to have a s#it load of ammo(knowledege) at my disposal... i know he broke the law but i cant just walk upto him and go 'what you did was illegal' without having some facts or rights i can list off...

Knowledge is power

From what i know legally, You can not take holidays without prior agreement from your employer, even if they were wrong to pay you for them when they did,
It would be 2 different issue'. Issue 1, you have a case against them for paying holiday pay you while on sick leave
Issue 2, If you took holidays without prior notice, paid or unpaid they would have a case against you.
I dont think its a case of they done that so i'm going to do this

But i could be wrong

Maybe talk to him and try come to some agreement before doing anything that might end up been nasty

Ceepo

adash10 wrote: »

and to answer no i did NOT go on illness benefit as i receive a grant for college!

Well to sum up communication issues the GM of the Hotel is there over 10 years...im sure he knows how to inform employees that he is putting them down for holidays by picking up the phone, why should i deal with my recovery and work matters while recovering??he technically saw it as an advantage to him to put me down for the 4 days i was owed as i was going to be out for 2 weeks and as i stated before....its not even that busy this time of year.

Yes of course you are right on all above, it is the GM that was wrong and he should have informed you.

But can i just add to that, if i wanted holiday time on specific dates i would insure that i told someone in advance, even if i was out sick, Just to make sure i got them on the dates i wanted

prettygurrly

adash10 wrote: »

and to answer no i did NOT go on illness benefit as i receive a grant for college!

Well to sum up communication issues the GM of the Hotel is there over 10 years...im sure he knows how to inform employees that he is putting them down for holidays by picking up the phone, why should i deal with my recovery and work matters while recovering??he technically saw it as an advantage to him to put me down for the 4 days i was owed as i was going to be out for 2 weeks and as i stated before....its not even that busy this time of year.

I'm really confused here, how was it the GM's advantage to pay you for holidays instead of you getting nothing while you were off? If it's so unbusy in your hotel at Christmas (which if that's the case I'd be concerned for your job rather than being pissed off about holiday days being used so you get paid something while you're sick) then the GM (or head chef) could probably let you have 4 days off unpaid if you asked...I think you need to be careful about how you approach this situation, don't burn bridges because despite what we hear on the news, this country is not back on its feet in any sense, so a job's a job and in the grand scheme of things I think the GM was trying to do the best by you.

foxinsox

There is a lot of correct info on here in other posts.

My take on it :

Sounds to me like the GM maybe thought he was doing you a favour. Maybe he thought as it wasn't a planned absence that you might be stuck for a few bob. Maybe he didn't want to bother you while you were recovering from surgery.

Biggest problem as I see it is that neither of you seem to have talked about it to each other.

If I was a GM of a hotel I would not be expecting a chef to be off on hols in the month of December.

If it was me I def would not cause a scene over this, if I did I would imagine I'd be job hunting in the very near future, not by choice.

adash10

Well i get over 30 hours per week as in my industry its 'tight'...chefs come and go every week and they try squeeze what they can out of you...trust me im chefing almost 6 years now part time/full time! plus i have college exams starting in a few days and i work a second job to help pay the rent so yeah 4 days off to me is pretty important TIME WISE!

the GM didnt inform me i was down for hols...paid me while i was on sick leave(ILLEGAL) and now im down 4 days off that i really could have used to my benifit!

do you not think its unfair that he considered me being sick a bit of a holiday just to suit the establishment so he wouldnt have to ask another staff member to cover my shifts while im off...??

gozunda

Ceepo wrote: »

A simple phone call form both parties would have sorted things out,

Employer, Hi, I am going to pay you the 4 day hoildays you are owed, is that ok ?. Employee Yes?No.

Employee, Hi, Is it ok to take them 4 days holidays in dates xx, to xx or dates xx and xx and xx and xx, Employer Yes?No.

Simples!

It remains illegal for an employer o assign Holidays where an employee is out sick


Anyone who believes the boss is in any way doing the OP a favour is looking the wrong way down the telescope

What's not to get here?

Ok alternative scenario:

Boss: you will be working 24 hour shifts every day for the next week ok?

Staff: ehh ok thanks for telling me - do I have a choice?

Boss: no

Staff; eh ok so...

The OP quite clearly had other things on his mind - like unplanned illness, hospital etc etc

He has a reasonable expectation for consideration from his employer

OP - do you have a union in your workplace by any chance?

Edit: I somehow always had the idea that 'work problems' was more a place for employees than otherwise but llooking back it would definitely seem to be more employers interests here than employees ...

prettygurrly

i'm still struggling to see how paying you while you were off which he didn't have to do is suiting the establishment? The crux of it is that you keep saying the place is not busy yet you think you won't get the time off (even unpaid). Sounds like you wouldn't have got the time off if you had applied for it correctly and now are hoping that by shouting "illegal" and threatening things will make sure you get the four days off...not a nice place to work after that, that is if you are still working!

prettygurrly

gozunda wrote: »

Simples!

It remains illegal for an employer o assign Holidays where an employee is out sick


Anyone who believes the boss is in any way doing the OP a favour is looking the wrong way down the telescope

What's not to get here?

Ok alternative scenario:

Boss: you will be working 24 hour shifts every day for the next week ok?

Staff: ehh ok thanks for telling me - do I have a choice?

Boss: no

Staff; eh ok so...

The OP quite clearly had other things on his mind - like unplanned illness, hospital etc etc

He has a reasonable expectation for consideration from his employer

OP - do you have a union in your workplace by any chance?

Edit: I somehow always had the idea that 'work problems' was more a place for employees than otherwise but llooking back it would definitely seem to be more employers interests here than employees ...

Making someone work 24 hour shifts is obviously illegal and would be done with intent...I think the point we're trying to make here is that it sounds like there was no intent behind the employers actions, he was trying to do the employee a favour. God knows when I was working I would have loved to have my leave used for sick days as we didn't have sick pay...fair enough bring the situation up with the employer but possibly don't be on the attack...it won't get you very far.

gozunda

Ceepo wrote: »

From what i know legally, You can not take holidays without prior agreement from your employer, even if they were wrong to pay you for them when they did,
It would be 2 different issue'. Issue 1, you have a case against them for paying holiday pay you while on sick leave
Issue 2, If you took holidays without prior notice, paid or unpaid they would have a case against you.
I dont think its a case of they done that so i'm going to do this

But i could be wrong

Maybe talk to him and try come to some agreement before doing anything that might end up been nasty

Ceepo - nowhere does the OP state he took 'unpaid holidays' without prior notice!

The OP was ill!

What are you trying to do there? Scare the OP off?

adash10

no we dont have a union...yes i get that vibe too im an employee looking for help im not looking to start a war between employers/employees...i know its xmas but like i siad before and wish people would read the Hotel isnt that busy this year yes there is shifts going but feck that i want whats entitled to me i worked bloody hard for it..split shifts and coming in at 5a.m to do breakfast shifts etc.

my illness was not foreseen i was rushed to hospital after work when i could not walk and i was unfit to work for at least 2 weeks!

i dont care if he was doing me a favour he didnt inform me 1st off he was giving me holiday pay and second he seems to think my recovery was a 'little' holiday for me as well....

foxinsox

I think you should just talk to the GM.

Ask him what the story is.

adash10

your not reading the posts...he gave me my holidays while i was UNFIT for work which means that he doesn't have to deal with it any more...its 1 less problem for him to look at as he thinks i can work like normal and wont be requesting any time off...but the point is i AM entitled to those days off he just thinks it was ok to shun me off with the holiday money while i was absent...

he is no longer a chef down and doesn't have to worry about getting other chefs to cover the shifts i was originally due off.....

gozunda

prettygurrly wrote: »

Making someone work 24 hour shifts is obviously illegal and would be done with intent...I think the point we're trying to make here is that it sounds like there was no intent behind the employers actions, he was trying to do the employee a favour. God knows when I was working I would have loved to have my leave used for sick days as we didn't have sick pay...fair enough bring the situation up with the employer but possibly don't be on the attack...it won't get you very far.

SO IS MAKING SOMEONE TAKE UNREQUESTED HOLIDAYS WHILST THEY ARE OUT SICK

I see no favour & neither does the OP

The more dodgy employers get away with these shoddy practices the worse it is for all employees.

So yes the OP is correct to stand up for his employment rights.

adash10

Ive mentioned it to him and he said he will look into it when he gets the chance....pffft as if he wants to deal with me, he is a bit of a tosser if you get me...and thats a realy polite way to describe him...

foxinsox

adash10 wrote: »

Ive mentioned it to him and he said he will look into it when he gets the chance....pffft as if he wants to deal with me, he is a bit of a tosser if you get me...and thats a realy polite way to describe him...

Ok, that's a different story all together. I don't think you had mentioned before that you had spoken to him about it.

Tell him that you had plans and had really wanted to have 4 days off before Christmas, request the holiday days off in writing.

Let him deal with it then.

You can't really know what he is thinking.

You both need to sit and talk and sort it out.

adash10

im only home from work and i said it to him as i was leaving that's why its only mentioned now...if you could all just put yourself in my shoes...if you worked like a dog and looked forward to 4 days holidays off but found out after 2 weeks recovering you would not be getting them wouldnt you kick up a fuss....what if i had kids or family commitments to tend to but now i wouldnt be able to..

its not fair...he pulled a fast one and thinks im going to keep my mouth shut.

not on my watch people like him are power mad and have no respect for employees..they see us as numbers and letters on a roster.

fact!

davo10

OP we all agree with you, you are entitled to days off, but you must understand that there is a protocall to be adhered too, you must give sufficient notice of when you wish to take leave days, you must also get the consent of your employer, right now you have neither so are not "entitled" to take the days you want. By all means kick up a storm, but act in haste, repent at your leisure.

Ceepo

gozunda wrote: »

Ceepo - nowhere does the OP state he took 'unpaid holidays' without prior notice!

The OP was ill!

What are you trying to do there? Scare the OP off?

Never said they did.

Op asked should the just take the days off anyway.
As far as I can remember they never asked for time off in advance, and asked should the just take the time off, unpaid,
What I said was if op takes time off unpaid it has to be with the discussed with emoloyer.
The emoloyer can give the time off unpaid if they can agree on that

If you want to quote me, please do it fairly

Ceepo

adash10 wrote: »

Ive mentioned it to him and he said he will look into it when he gets the chance....pffft as if he wants to deal with me, he is a bit of a tosser if you get me...and thats a realy polite way to describe him...

Probably should have done that at the start,

Most thing can be sorted out by talking.

amdublin

Can we clarify please.

You were on sick leave.

Did your employer pay you for your holidays in place of being on sick leave?

Or in addition to being on sick leave?

If it is in addition then I think it is fine I.e. You are not losing out (from a money/al perspective)

While I acknowledge you wanted the days off he was obviously not aware of this? What about if you suggest you take the days unpaid - this technically balances out: you are getting the days off, plus paid for them (already).

I think clarification would be good rather than listening to the SHOUTERS on the thread going on about it being ILLEGAL and UNIONS etc, when from my reading of the thread we don't have full info.

Also, fwiw I think a sit down and calm conversation of how to sort this out with the guy (for both of you) is better than ranting and raving about ILLEGALITIES etc. This could all be sorted without a big argument if things are discussed rationally from both perspectives of what has happened.

gozunda

I note that a number of posts have ignored that what the employer did is in fact ILLEGAL and this is further compounded by the fact that the employer gave the employee no notice that he was assigning holidays. Neither has the employer appeared to be anyway reasonable with regard to the OP being out sick and taking his remaining annual leave days off.

It remains that the employer is breaking current employment law.

Perhaps worryingly a number of posts appear to attempt to scare the OP into not looking for this matter to be rectified on the basis that the employer may take action against the OP for doing so. So much for employment law then...

I am presuming that at least a number of these posts come from those with employer interests. I find such replies deeply distasteful as they appear to show that employers can do as they wish in disregarding an employees rights.

It makes me wonder how many employers use the 'work problem' forum to keep an eye on possible employee issues?

Advocating anyone to not uphold he law - even employment law is something I find to be of significant concern.

davo10

I think gozunda that most readers recognise that the OP may in fact have benefited from the situation. You seem not to understand that OP has now absolutely no right to leave on the dates he wishes nor before year end, so again, try to comprehend, if he has not given requisite notice of intention to take holidays, he is not entitled to them, nor to be paid for them. Employers are entitled to notice in order to make arrangements for cover.

This could be argued back and forth but as other posters have said, the best thing to do is to discuss this with the manager, but as stated, he may end up with no pay and no holidays, would you be satisfied with that outcome?

amdublin

Gozunda are you actually reading any posts in this thread?????

gozunda

davo10 wrote: »

I think gozunda that most readers recognise that the OP may in fact have benefited from the situation. You seem not to understand that OP has now absolutely no right to leave on the dates he wishes nor before year end, so again, try to comprehend, if he has not given requisite notice of intention to take holidays, he is not entitled to them, nor to be paid for them. Employers are entitled to notice in order to make arrangements for cover.

This could be argued back and forth but as other posters have said, the best thing to do is to discuss this with the manager, but as stated, he may end up with no pay and no holidays, would you be satisfied with that outcome?

How on earth can an employee have 'benefited' from an employer acting illegally - and without any consultation of the employee.

you state that an employee has no right to 'leave on the days he wishes' What right if any does an employer Have TO BREAK THE LAW?

The employee states that there is no reason why annual leave up to and including the end of the year could not have been facilitated as part of his annual leave with the exception that he has been out sick.

The relationship between an employee and an employer is a contract with contractual obligations for both parties

The employee has rights under employment law that have been broken by his employer and the employer has clearly broken his contractual obligations towards his employee

The OP clearly stated that the action of the employer was taken without consultation and he has lost his holiday entitlement because of this
So there is no 'Benefit' or 'Favour' from the situation. The employer breaking employment law does no favour to anyone except where an employer is attempting to pull a fast one on the employee.

The employee has a right to representation as to the days he wishes to take for his annual leave. Yes there may need to be negotiation between employer and employer as to what is best - this is part of normal employment arrangements however Exceptional circumstances (ie illness) prevented the employee having giving necessary notice - this does not give permission for the employer to break employment law. End of.

So you again attempting to threaten an employee that he may have no holidays or pay. Get real - I believe the EAT / labour court would be very interested in being made aware of such employer practises.

tbh I find these attempts at misrepresentation of the employees situation to be offensive in general and specifically in relation to the OP

gozunda

amdublin wrote: »

Gozunda are you actually reading any posts in this thread?????

Yes - I have read it all.

Now let me ask you a question / Do you do understand what the employer did is Illegal? Or are you ignoring this?

twowheelsonly

OP.. Were you officially on sick leave i.e. handed in a Sick Cert/Doctors letter or was it verbal?
Other info that would be handy is how long you have worked there and whether or not you have a contract.

I lean slightly towards the side that what he did was illegal to the letter of the law but maybe not knowingly.

At this stage there are 8 working days left to Christmas and you want 4 of them off!! Chances are that at least a couple of those would have been refused in any case due to not booking them on time. Much as you may have intended to do so the fact remains that you didn't.

With your consent it is possible to get paid holiday pay while you're out sick. Likewise it's actually possible to claim sick leave whilst on Holiday leave and claim back the holiday leave (or part thereof..)

amdublin

gozunda wrote: »

Yes - I have read it all.

Now let me ask you a question / Do you do understand what the employer did is Illegal? Or are you ignoring this?

No I am not ignoring that. BUT it depends on the SPECIFIC situation. Which I have asked the op to clarify. I am not going to jump and straight away shout ILLEGAL when we don't have the facts.

Was the op on sick leave and instead of recording this as sick leave the employer has instead recorded it as holiday leave and paid him/her - yes of course this is not right.

BUT! Was the op on sick leave - and the employer has recorded him/her correctly as on sick leave. But completely separate to this, rather than the op losing their al for the year (because they did not state the days they wanted) the employer has paid him/her for the days. Because if THIS is the case then what the employer has done is correct IMO.

So just calm down and get the full facts before you start SHOUTING stuff. You may be correct, or I may be correct, or other posters could be correct (that the employer thought they were helping the op) but until we all KNOW the FULL FACTS no one can say with certainty what has happened here.

Op - please can you clarify.
Plus have you had a chance to calmly discuss like an adult with the guy a fair solution for all involved?

foxinsox

Some very angry shouty posts on here.

None of us here know the full details.

Regardless of the situation, the employee
doesn't seem to have made the employer aware of his plans to take holidays.

The employee and the employer need to actually talk about this to resolve it.

gozunda, this form is for work problems, I would take that to be for anyone who has a problem with work. I've read all sorts of posts on here, good advice seems to be given.

I think your post saying there is bias in here is untrue, in fact I found it a bit rude to all the posters who take time to reply and try to help people in here.

Nearly every poster in here has agreed that holiday pay shouldn't be paid while out sick.

I personally think going all gung ho and getting angry with his employer before talking to him and asking his reasons for paying it, is not going to help the op at all.

There may be a very simple explanation.

gozunda

foxinsox wrote: »

Some very angry shouty posts on here.

None of us here know the full details.

Regardless of the situation, the employee
doesn't seem to have made the employer aware of his plans to take holidays.

The employee and the employer need to actually talk about this to resolve it.

gozunda, this form is for work problems, I would take that to be for anyone who has a problem with work. I've read all sorts of posts on here, good advice seems to be given.

I think your post saying there is bias in here is untrue, in fact I found it a bit rude to all the posters who take time to reply and try to help people in here.

Nearly every poster in here has agreed that holiday pay shouldn't be paid while out sick.

I personally think going all gung ho and getting angry with his employer before talking to him and asking his reasons for paying it, is not going to help the op at all.

There may be a very simple explanation.

The OP has been quite clear - there are some interests that appear to be ignoring the given facts in an apparent bizarre attempt to disregard the illegality of the situation that the OP has clearly outlined.

Employers have very clear contractual obligations towards their employers and employees have clearly defined employment rights - attempting to fudge these issues does not help anyone

Strangely there would appear to heavily weighted employer interests in this matter