Holiday pay on sick leave..?

amdublin

The Op has not been clear. You're the only one trying to fudge things - making your opinion out to be correct when you don't have the full facts.

Change the record about this argument being weighted. None of us can be certain until we get the full facts.

Op my advice would be not to listen to Gozundas ranting. Instead sit down with your manager and discuss it out.

gozunda

amdublin wrote: »

The Op has not been clear. You're the only one trying to fudge things - making your opinion out to be correct when you don't have the full facts.
Change the record about this argument being weighted. None of can be certain until we get the full facts.
Op my advice would be not to listen to Gozundas ranting. Instead sit down with your manager and discuss it out.

Read his posts - The OP has been quite clear. The only fudging appears to have occured due to deliberate misinterpratation of the basic facts in other posts.

And for your information I have not advoacted that discussion should not take place. I note that the OP has already attempted to talk about this with his GM - to no avail.

I observe that there are clear attempts in this to brow beat the OP. This has happened several times and as I have said is deeply disturbing.

Its about time those employers that would attempt such dishonest behaviour should face up to the fact that employees have employment rights that must be respected.

If they are not, then there are quite clear routes for redress.

amdublin

I'm finished with this thread. Good luck op I hope you get this resolved to your satisfaction.

noodler

Good luck OP.

I do worry that yourself (and Gozunda in particular) are only hearing what you want to hear.

What happens if other staff have made arrangements months ago to take time off at Xmas? I don't see how your claim would be anymore of a priority then theirs. I've worked retail and you just understand how difficult it is for everyone to get what they want at this time of the year.

If you had already been refused the time off (you haven't yet asked as we understand it) then people could give more help.

1) Will the employer let you have four unpaid days off in 2012?

2) If so, will he let you have them on the dates you want?

3) If not, will he let you carry them to 2013?

It seems to be the course of action at the moment. Even if what he did was illegal as Goz maintain (repeatedly), then how does it entitle you on December 16th to the four days off which you haven't even applied for?


Sorry if I sound harsh and best of luck with the exam. I urge you not to "just take them" as one poster suggested as I'd hate for you to lose your job because of what somebody posted on here.

prettygurrly

Gozunda, I also found your posts particularly rude to people who have taken the time to reply to this thread. I'd ask you not to make any assumptions of me or my working situation thank you. I am not an employer and have been an employee in various jobs for over 14 years.

I still feel that the employer has not gained anything by paying the holiday leave during sick pay. I note that no one has yet explained how they benefited from paying the OP his holidays when they didn't have to. As rightly pointed out by lots of people, the OP could not guarantee that he would have got leave at this time of year (despite their claims that the place isn't busy) and therefore you would have been down holiday pay and would not have been paid sick leave if the employer hadn't signed days for you during your sick leave. Whether you're able to take days off, which is what you want, is totally up to the employer and if you feel that you deserve the days off then bring up the illegality and shout and stamp your foot but it's unlikely to get you anywhere. If you took them to court what would happen? A small fine? rap on the wrist for what in the grand scheme of things is just a miscommunication which you may have to learn from. In any job I've had I've given as much notice as I could for leave, particularly a number of days in a row.

Can I ask you a question OP, how would you have felt if you didn't want to take four holiday days? would you still be shouting about the illegalities of your employer's actions or would you be going "cheers for marking my sick leave down as holiday leave so I still got a bit of pay before christmas"

Mrs OBumble

Just a brief moderator's note:

We discuss issues here- that means we talk about the legality of situations, but also we apply common-sense: sometimes the law is unclear, sometimes where will be conflicting legal aspects (eg employer is required to give annual leave - but cannot do so in the time available due to unexpected illness getting in the way).

But we cannot and do not give legal advice - because that could get boards.ie into trouble.

So please don't use overly legalistic language in analysing situations, because it may cause people to think they're getting "legal advice" rather than just your interpretation.

And please don't SHOUT - it's rude, and hurts people's eyes. If you want to add emphasis, then bold, italics, or even colour is the way to go.

FWIW, I like to think of Work and Jobs / Work Problems advice being like that of a pragmatic union delegate or shop steward, ie informed by labour laws, and by common sense about how to manage relationships in the real world where laws don't always help.

gozunda

Noodles and Prettygurly - I find your direct attack and continued berating of the OP in clear contradiction of what has been stated disgusting

The Employer does not have all the rights in this issue. It is quite clear that the OP has been done out of days that were designated as annual leave without his agreement.

As I gave stayed there appears to have been absolutely no consideration of the employee based on the fact he was ill.

Btw I havn't 'maintained' anything. - assigning sick days as holidays is clearly outlined as not being permissible under employment legislation. - I am not interpreting this. This is set out quite clearly on various government publications.

You have questioned his clear statement that his place of work is not busy and also stated he had no rights to take his annual leave before the end of the year. I have taken the OPs details into account when replying

If you do not believe the OPs account - then why choose to advocate for the employer especially considering he obviously disregarded the OPs employment rights under legislation

Then there has been the veiled predictions / indications of what his employer might do to him in the event of the OP asking that his employment rights be respected.

I will take it these attitudes stem more from employer or HR interests and not on behalf of any real consideration of the employees situation.

As I said I find these attitudes both disingenuous and disgusting tbh. Many of the responses would appear to dictate 'that the employer is always right' - this is very very wrong and a poor reflection of what should be clear contractural obligations by the employer towards their employees

Yes the employer is in a position of trust with regard to their employees - this is a trust that should not be abused and should never be excused.

noodler

gozunda wrote: »

Noodles and Prettygurly - I find your direct attack and continued berating of the OP in clear contradiction of what has been stated disgusting

You see, this is the issue with your posts. You are not actually reading what people say.

That was my first post in the thread and so could hardly be considered "continued berating" (it actually wasn't berating at all).

gozunda

noodler wrote: »

You see, this is the issue with your posts. You are not actually reading what people say.

That was my first post in the thread and so could hardly be considered "continued berating" (it actually wasn't berating at all).

I would respectfully suggest you go back and read the number of posts on this matter. You will notice that what you posted has already detailed previously in other posts hence the continued berating. Your post added to this. Hence my reply.

Considering the OP gave quite a clear description of what happened - there are some replies that appear to fail to take little or any of this information into account.

I have pointed the apparent lack of willingness to take what the OP has stated into account and the rather strange substitution of this with various presumed scenarios that appear to have nothing to do with what the OP outlined.

I have outlined that the employees rights were infringed in relation to this matter. I see little condemnation of this fact or how he has been treated subsequently. It is this that I find most concerning.

tatli_lokma

Gozunda, you use the word attack a lot, but in reality, you are the one with the attacking language. I agree with you absolutely, that by the letter of the law, then yes, these days should not have been taken as AL when he was sick. However, you seem to refuse to see other sides to this. The "benefit" to the employee is that they got paid for 4 days which they would not normally have been given. You might not see it as a benefit, but I myself was in a similar situation to OP a while back, and was unexpectedly very sick for 2 weeks before Christmas with no sick pay. I asked could I please take the 8 days AL I had left against this so that I would have some money for Christmas and was flat out refused, citing the legal reasons as you have. Technically my employer was correct, but sometimes it is not always to your benefit as an employee if your boss sticks to the letter of the law with no flexibility or employment of common sense. Has OP's manager handled this strictly the correct way as per the law - possibly not. However it is much easier resolved than you seem to realise. Shouting "rights" and "ILLEGAL" over and over and riling the OP up are not in reality going to benefit the gentleman.

As others have said, a professional and reasoned approach to the matter is much more likely to benefit the OP. If he does as you say and insists that he have his AL re-instated, there is still no (and I use a word here that you might understand) legal obligation on the employer to grant this leave on the dates OP prefers. However, legally, the employer must come to an agreement and allow these dates to be carried over for use in 2013.

OP, I am sorry for your situation. I do entirely appreciate where you are coming from. I think the particular bugbear for you is thatyou feel that your employer considers your time off sick as a holiday, when it was clearly not. However, as others have advised, I too would advise caution. Particularly in the industry in which you work - sick people are inconveniences usually, so this attitude is seen a lot. And you then wading in demanding 'rights' won't help you one little bit.

I would advise you to ask yourself - what do you really want to get out of this?

- Do you want your AL back? in which case, are you happy for the 4 days to be deducted from your next wages (as you don't get paid sick leave, had you not had AL allocated for this time off, you would have had 4 days less pay)?

- If the answer to above is yes, then you need to ask yourself what benefit this really is to you? Either way, 4 days unpaid leave is going to be taken - it all balances out in the end, so is it worth fighting this one out?

- when you were off sick, did other people have to cover for you? do you know if anyone else had to possibly cancel holidays to cover? this might explain why you are not being given any more time off this year.

- From my reading of it, OP, for you its not about money, its about time off. In which case, whilst I do sympathise, you need to ask is it really worth fighting this battle for 4 days unpaid leave (as money wise, it makes no difference what so ever)? If these days are really that important to you, then sit down in a mature manner and explain this to your manager. Explain to him that from a personal view, the reason it means so much to you that your sick leave be acknowledged is because you have a strong work ethic and you would not like for it to be thought that you were not as sick as you were. Then explain for what purpose expressly you need a few days off before christmas. Be prepared to compromise and others might meet you half way - you might not get 4 days, but maybe 2 for example.

OP, try not to over think this too much. I doubt your work ethic was being questioned - appendicitis is not the sort of thing you can fake, so I doubt that anyone in work is questioning your credibility on that score. I think more likely, it is a simple issue of the GM not fully appreciating the legalities of putting those 4 days as AL and just not seeing what the issue is.

Sometimes in life we need to pick our battles and only pursue the ones that are really worth fighting. So before you go fighting this fight, ask yourself, "what exactly is it I want to achieve and at what cost?"

gozunda

Little Ted wrote: »

Gozunda, you use the word attack a lot, but in reality, you are the one with the attacking language. I agree with you absolutely, that by the letter of the law, then yes, these days should not have been taken as AL when he was sick. However, you seem to refuse to see other sides to this. The "benefit" to the employee is that they got paid for 4 days which they would not normally have been given. You might not see it as a benefit, but I myself was in a similar situation to OP a while back, and was unexpectedly very sick for 2 weeks before Christmas with no sick pay. I asked could I please take the 8 days AL I had left against this so that I would have some money for Christmas and was flat out refused, citing the legal reasons as you have. Technically my employer was correct, but sometimes it is not always to your benefit as an employee if your boss sticks to the letter of the law with no flexibility or employment of common sense. Has OP's manager handled this strictly the correct way as per the law - possibly not. However it is much easier resolved than you seem to realise. Shouting "rights" and "ILLEGAL" over and over and riling the OP up are not in reality going to benefit the gentleman.

As others have said, a professional and reasoned approach to the matter is much more likely to benefit the OP. If he does as you say and insists that he have his AL re-instated, there is still no (and I use a word here that you might understand) legal obligation on the employer to grant this leave on the dates OP prefers. However, legally, the employer must come to an agreement and allow these dates to be carried over for use in 2013.

OP, I am sorry for your situation. I do entirely appreciate where you are coming from. I think the particular bugbear for you is thatyou feel that your employer considers your time off sick as a holiday, when it was clearly not. However, as others have advised, I too would advise caution. Particularly in the industry in which you work - sick people are inconveniences usually, so this attitude is seen a lot. And you then wading in demanding 'rights' won't help you one little bit.

I would advise you to ask yourself - what do you really want to get out of this?

- Do you want your AL back? in which case, are you happy for the 4 days to be deducted from your next wages (as you don't get paid sick leave, had you not had AL allocated for this time off, you would have had 4 days less pay)?

- If the answer to above is yes, then you need to ask yourself what benefit this really is to you? Either way, 4 days unpaid leave is going to be taken - it all balances out in the end, so is it worth fighting this one out?

- when you were off sick, did other people have to cover for you? do you know if anyone else had to possibly cancel holidays to cover? this might explain why you are not being given any more time off this year.

- From my reading of it, OP, for you its not about money, its about time off. In which case, whilst I do sympathise, you need to ask is it really worth fighting this battle for 4 days unpaid leave (as money wise, it makes no difference what so ever)? If these days are really that important to you, then sit down in a mature manner and explain this to your manager. Explain to him that from a personal view, the reason it means so much to you that your sick leave be acknowledged is because you have a strong work ethic and you would not like for it to be thought that you were not as sick as you were. Then explain for what purpose expressly you need a few days off before christmas. Be prepared to compromise and others might meet you half way - you might not get 4 days, but maybe 2 for example.

OP, try not to over think this too much. I doubt your work ethic was being questioned - appendicitis is not the sort of thing you can fake, so I doubt that anyone in work is questioning your credibility on that score. I think more likely, it is a simple issue of the GM not fully appreciating the legalities of putting those 4 days as AL and just not seeing what the issue is.

Sometimes in life we need to pick our battles and only pursue the ones that are really worth fighting. So before you go fighting this fight, ask yourself, "what exactly is it I want to achieve and at what cost?"

Little Ted

From your post you appear to be a fair person... however there are some significant inaccuracies in what you have written

Looking back I believe I used the word "attack" in my last post only - how does that constitute "a lot"?

I have tried my best to answer directed posts with logical argument and to be supportive of the OPS position unfortunately I have got derision for doing so - rather strange considering the facts tbh. How does this amount to "attacking language"?

I do not believe that in this instance the employer was looking out for the best interests of the employee - a number of points would indicate this:

He did not notify the employee of what he was doing

What the GM did was obviously illegal

The GM does not in any way appear to be accommodating with regard to the fact the OP was out sick and was owed a number of holidays

The OP has stated that his place of work is not that busy at Christmas (this may be due to location and other factors) then there is no good reason why a good employer would not work with the OP in coming to a mutually beneficial agreement

The OP has attempted to talk to the GM - to no avail

I note you also talk about your own experience of being out sick - May I ask why you did not do the obvious thing and claim Illness Benefit?

It is indeed unfortunate that there are employers out there who choose to give employees an unfair deal and get away with it because of the balance of power - which as you clearly indicate is on the side of the employer. Again the veiled threat "of at what cost". I really find this type of manipulation to be very cynical.

The way the employer approached this matter specifically I believe says little for his attitude towards his employees in general. If the OP does not seek a fair resolution in this matter, this employer and also other employers get the idea that they can treat employees with less than their contractual obligations in relation to other areas of employment

It is unfortunate that in Ireland this type of behavior appears to be all common amongst employers. It is very distasteful that it also appears to be accepted. The recent economic downturn and recent cases of unfair treatment of employees would also to led some employers to believe that they can do as they wish.

I hope that the OP gets a fair resolution of this matter. If nothing else they at least know the type of employer they are dealing with for the future.

tatli_lokma

Gozunda, when you use CAPITALS in a forum, it is commonly accepted that you are shouting. Look back over all your posts - you capitalise words quite regularly, so in effect are shouting at other posters. If you were having a face to face discussion and were to regularly shout at people to emphasise your point, then this would be, IMO, commonly accepted as agressive and attacking behaviour. Hence my comment to you regarding attacking language.

I have read through the OP's posts, and it is clear that not all the information is yet to hand. You are jumping quite solidly on the bandwagon that plays the tune that this employer is unfair and treats their staff like sh!t. And you do this only on the basis of a few posts from OP, which provide sketchy information at best and which are one sided.

You will find that in general many posters on here will play devils advocate, or try to give the poster an insight from the other persons side. This is a very reasonable and useful thing to do - when we are upset by something in work, or feel hard done by often we need someone outside to give perspective or a different insight.

The OP only vaguely said that they mentioned it to their GM, and that the GM said they will look into it whent hey get the chance. That is hardly the same thing as having a proper discussion about the situation in the manner I suggested.

Gozunda, with all due respect, whilst you do make some valid points, and there are legal issues here, it is not as black and white as you paint it. In the real world where people have to get along with each other and work side by side and have differing personalities and priorities it is rarely black and white, and a little bit of calmness, rationality and common sense goes a long way. Why Sh!it on your own doorstep? Why would OP walk himself out of a job, possibly with no reference, just for the sake of principle? You can hold onto your principles and get your voice heard without getting peoples back's up unneccessarily. You make a lot of assumptions, based on very little actual facts.

For example, you are pretty certain that the employer did not act in the employee interests and almost accuse them of having done it on purpose:

gozunda wrote:

He did not notify the employee of what he was doing

at best this indicates a poor knowledge of how the AL/sick leave system should work and that he has poor communication skills, possibly is a bad manager. It does not prove malicious intent.

gozunda wrote:

What the GM did was obviously illegal

obvious to who? again, my point above stands - he is only doing something 'obviously' illegal if he has enough knowledge to realise that it is illegal, which is probably giving him more credit than he deserves.

gozunda wrote:

The GM does not in any way appear to be accommodating with regard to the fact the OP was out sick and was owed a number of holidays

again, you are making broad assumptions - this is based on one post from OP which says that the GM said he will look into it later.

Finally my point still stands as to choosing your battles. At the end of the day whether OP took his leave during his sick period, or whether he gets these re-instated and gets to take them later, he will not be financially any better off. If the time off means that much to him, he has to make the effort to explain this to his GM. If he still refuses when he could accommodate him, well then he is being a twat, but he is within his rights to decide when an employee takes their leave.

OP has to accept some responsibility that he did not have his leave booked, and unfortunately due to circumstances beyond anyone's control he missed out. Who is to say even if he had submitted his request that he would have got it? again, you are assuming that he would have been given the time off, and we simply do not know if that would have been the case.


Again, if OP feels that it is a matter of principle that the manager acknowledge that his leave was justified as sick leave, then he can have a chat with him and explain why this bothers him. But as there is little to be gained (i.e he is unlikely to get the time off now and he is not going to be better off financially) then, were it me, I would not push it too far.

I totally agree with you Gozunda, that in the workplace often inconsiderate and unfair behaviour is regular. And the socialist in me also agrees that at times you need to stand up for your rights. But the realist in me says that you need to make sure that you do not put your principles before your own welfare - being principled doesn't pay the bills. There is more than one way to stand your corner and ensure your rights are protected - going in all guns blazing and shouting at people telling them they are acting in an illegal manner is not one that works very often, I can tell you! You get much further with honey than vinegar, its all about how you tackle these issues.

So Gozunda, chill out a bit, try to be a bit more realistic and pragmatic about the situation and then perhaps you will be able to give OP some really constructive advice. No one is disputing that the legalities of assigning AL when it is certified sick leave, but we are all disputing your advice on how to handle the matter.

(Finally, the reason I would have prefered AL instead of illness benefit is because I would have had 8 full days pay. Instead I had 7 days of illness benefit which was less than my normal wages - as the 1st three days is not counted anyway, if I had been permitted to use AL, I would have only had 2 days unpaid and the rest at full wages.)

tatli_lokma

gozunda wrote: »

It is indeed unfortunate that there are employers out there who choose to give employees an unfair deal and get away with it because of the balance of power - which as you clearly indicate is on the side of the employer. Again the veiled threat "of at what cost". I really find this type of manipulation to be very cynical.

I would also counter, that this balance of power you suggest is not as unbalanced as you think. I have been on both sides - I am an employee but equally I am a manager. As a manager, try to get rid of someone who is a lazy worker...I can tell you, you will put a lot of time and energy and man hours into managing out someone. There are plenty of employEEs who take full advantage of contractual obligations. So again, sorry to sound like a broken record, but it is never black and white - for every manipluative employer who takes advantage of an employee there is just as many manipulative employees who take the piss knowing that the manager can't really do very much about it.

With rights come responsibilities - a concept sadly lost on many people in the world.

gozunda

Little Ted wrote: »

Gozunda, when you use CAPITALS in a forum, it is commonly accepted that you are shouting. Look back over all your posts - you capitalise words quite regularly, so in effect are shouting at other posters. If you were having a face to face discussion and were to regularly shout at people to emphasise your point, then this would be, IMO, commonly accepted as agressive and attacking behaviour. Hence my comment to you regarding attacking language.

Little Ted - take another look - I am not the only poster here who uses this device. As you obviously cannot physically shout - it is commonly used for emphasis especially where a point has been blatantly ignored.
And btw you made a headline that i used the "word attack" frequently - I did not - so this does not cover your "attack" in the last post

I have read through the OP's posts, and it is clear that not all the information is yet to hand. You are jumping quite solidly on the bandwagon that plays the tune that this employer is unfair and treats their staff like sh!t. And you do this only on the basis of a few posts from OP, which provide sketchy information at best and which are one sided.

There is little if no point in replying to a poster if you are going to presume a)he is misinformed or b) he is lying. IMO there is enough information there to determine the situation without substituting your reality for his. Otherwise this is just making it up to suit some another agenda

You will find that in general many posters on here will play devils advocate, or try to give the poster an insight from the other persons side. This is a very reasonable and useful thing to do - when we are upset by something in work, or feel hard done by often we need someone outside to give perspective or a different insight.

Playing devils advocate is ok but to hint at punitive retaliation if the the OP dares put his head above the parapet is a very cynical ploy imo and does not help the OP in relation to his situation

The OP only vaguely said that they mentioned it to their GM, and that the GM said they will look into it whent hey get the chance. That is hardly the same thing as having a proper discussion about the situation in the manner I suggested.

Again the detail would suggest that the GM had no desire to discuss this and gave the OP the brush off.

Gozunda, with all due respect, whilst you do make some valid points, and there are legal issues here, it is not as black and white as you paint it. In the real world where people have to get along with each other and work side by side and have differing personalities and priorities it is rarely black and white, and a little bit of calmness, rationality and common sense goes a long way. Why Sh!it on your own doorstep? Why would OP walk himself out of a job, possibly with no reference, just for the sake of principle? You can hold onto your principles and get your voice heard without getting peoples back's up unneccessarily. You make a lot of assumptions, based on very little actual facts.
For example, you are pretty certain that the employer did not act in the employee interests and almost accuse them of having done it on purpose:at best this indicates a poor knowledge of how the AL/sick leave system should work and that he has poor communication skills, possibly is a bad manager. It does not prove malicious intent.

Its up to the OP to decide his reply as to what happened. Having multiple posters who appear to ignore what facts is not helpful. I have clearly pointed this out

obvious to who? again, my point above stands - he is only doing something 'obviously' illegal if he has enough knowledge to realise that it is illegal, which is probably giving him more credit than he deserves.
again, you are making broad assumptions - this is based on one post from OP which says that the GM said he will look into it later.

A GM who does not know basic employment law and that such behaviour is not legal?? I believe that is stretching it just too far. The basis of employment and annual leave is very straight forward imo.

Finally my point still stands as to choosing your battles. At the end of the day whether OP took his leave during his sick period, or whether he gets these re-instated and gets to take them later, he will not be financially any better off. If the time off means that much to him, he has to make the effort to explain this to his GM. If he still refuses when he could accommodate him, well then he is being a twat, but he is within his rights to decide when an employee takes their leave.
OP has to accept some responsibility that he did not have his leave booked, and unfortunately due to circumstances beyond anyone's control he missed out. Who is to say even if he had submitted his request that he would have got it? again, you are assuming that he would have been given the time off, and we simply do not know if that would have been the case.
Again, if OP feels that it is a matter of principle that the manager acknowledge that his leave was justified as sick leave, then he can have a chat with him and explain why this bothers him. But as there is little to be gained (i.e he is unlikely to get the time off now and he is not going to be better off financially) then, were it me, I would not push it too far.

again there would appear to be a complete failure to communicate with the employee or to reasonably accomodate the OP. That is it in a nutshell.

I totally agree with you Gozunda, that in the workplace often inconsiderate and unfair behaviour is regular. And the socialist in me also agrees that at times you need to stand up for your rights. But the realist in me says that you need to make sure that you do not put your principles before your own welfare - being principled doesn't pay the bills. There is more than one way to stand your corner and ensure your rights are protected - going in all guns blazing and shouting at people telling them they are acting in an illegal manner is not one that works very often, I can tell you! You get much further with honey than vinegar, its all about how you tackle these issues.
So Gozunda, chill out a bit, try to be a bit more realistic and pragmatic about the situation and then perhaps you will be able to give OP some really constructive advice. No one is disputing that the legalities of assigning AL when it is certified sick leave, but we are all disputing your advice on how to handle the matter.

Very nice for you to say so but I dont agree with your summary. Attempting to scare the OP into inaction is not a constructive solution imo.

(Finally, the reason I would have prefered AL instead of illness benefit is because I would have had 8 full days pay. Instead I had 7 days of illness benefit which was less than my normal wages - as the 1st three days is not counted anyway, if I had been permitted to use AL, I would have only had 2 days unpaid and the rest at full wages.)

Well perhaps if employers actually paid employees whilst they are out sick as the government is suggesting - we wouldnt have this problem.

Little Ted wrote: »

I would also counter, that this balance of power you suggest is not as unbalanced as you think. I have been on both sides - I am an employee but equally I am a manager. As a manager, try to get rid of someone who is a lazy worker...I can tell you, you will put a lot of time and energy and man hours into managing out someone. There are plenty of employEEs who take full advantage of contractual obligations. So again, sorry to sound like a broken record, but it is never black and white - for every manipluative employer who takes advantage of an employee there is just as many manipulative employees who take the piss knowing that the manager can't really do very much about it.

With rights come responsibilities - a concept sadly lost on many people in the world.

And unfortunately the GM appears to have neither gave consideration to neither the rights of the employee or his own responsibilities.

tatli_lokma

ah look, as amdublin says, I give up. Gozunda you are completely unwilling to take on board ANY (sorry for shouting) points from anyone else - you are singlemindedly determined to push your point and will not listen to any reasonable comments.

SHOUTING is rude on the forum - the mod has already advised you of this, so stop trying to make excuses.

You need to grow up and join the real world. You have dragged this thread down to the point where you are not in fact being helpful to the OP. It is easy to tell him to fight for his rights sitting in your ivory tower. You clearly have no understanding of how the real world works (your comment regarding managers who don't know employment law is proof of this). You haven't even given him any constructive advice as to how to go about fighting for his rights - all you do is shout ILLEGAL over and over but where did you give actual useful and helpful advice to the OP as to how he should handle this situation to ensure he gets his rights?????

I am done with you now - you are beyond reason.

OP, I hope things work out for you Ultimately I would recommend asking yourself the questions I outlined in my earlier post, and then from that approach the situation in a reasonable and professional manner. Regardless of the outcome, if you deal with it in that way you will come out of the situation able to hold your head high and with a reference should you choose to go elsewhere. Best of luck to you.

gozunda

Little Ted wrote: »

ah look, as amdublin says, I give up. Gozunda you are completely unwilling to take on board ANY (sorry for shouting) points from anyone else - you are singlemindedly determined to push your point and will not listen to any reasonable comments.
SHOUTING is rude on the forum - the mod has already advised you of this, so stop trying to make excuses.
You need to grow up and join the real world. You have dragged this thread down to the point where you are not in fact being helpful to the OP. It is easy to tell him to fight for his rights sitting in your ivory tower. You clearly have no understanding of how the real world works (your comment regarding managers who don't know employment law is proof of this). You haven't even given him any constructive advise as to how to go about fighting for his rights - all you do is shout ILLEGAL over and over but where did you give actual useful and helpful advise to the OP as to how he should handle this situation to ensure he gets his rights?????
I am done with you now - you are beyond reason.
OP, I hope things work out for you Ultimately I would recommend asking yourself the questions I outlined in my earlier post, and then from that approach the situation in a reasonable and professional manner. REgardless of the outcome, if you deal with it in that way you will come out of the situation able to hold your head high and with a reference should you choose to go elsewhere. Best of luck to you.

Only looking at this from the employer angle is disengenous and unhelpful. I have seen many nasty employment practices over the years and tbh the more an employee bends over generally the more they get shafted. I find the veiled threats contained in many of these posts indicative of the state of play in business deeply concerning. If you can't take this in board then I suggest you should perhaps make yourself more familar with employee rights as clearly you do not care about the legal obligations that employers have,


Btw you were the one who brought up the point about the GM not knowing employment law and excuses for this. I was commenting on this.

if you don't like capital letters (& btw I am not the only one to make use of them obviously! ) then why labour the point

You made an inaccurate accout of my use of the word 'attack' I believe - at least admit that you are incorrect somewhere.

Unlike some other replies who attempted to hide the fact what the GM did was incorrect - I spelt this out. I also highlighted several inaccuracies that were directed at the OP Whatever the OP does at least they now have a fair idea of the state of play of what happened to them. It is unfortunate that employees have to put up with such petty mindedness. I also note the level of frustration on behalf of the OP at replies ignoring what he was actually saying.


OP I wish you all the best. Hope you get it sorted .

tatli_lokma

oh give it a rest gozunda.
If you have anything actually helpful for the OP - as in an actual strategy or advice on how to actually deal with the issue, how to approach this with the GM etc etc, then please by all means post it. Otherwise, let it go - you are helping no one, least of all yourself.

Mrs OBumble

I think we'll leave it there.

OP, you've had some varied advice here - just like in real life. Good luck with resolving your problem. PM me later if you want me to open the thread up so you can let us know how you got on.

/moderation