Why is atheist Ireland/Michael Nugent given free advertising space on boards.ie?

Brown Bomber

Morag wrote: »

I reject your premise, there is no point in trying engage on the the argument above it's fallacious.

You seem to be failing to grasp the concept that there is leeway given to mods in terms of how the rules are applied, that for some cases the rules have some give but they while they may be flexible they do not break.

While oversight is important, and we should be able to question where we think the site rules are being over looked, or ignored and have situations reviewed, it seems you weren't aware that what you have seen as an erroneous situation is well with in the operating standards and procedures for the site.

If Mr Nugent had failed to contact the mods of the forum about his contributions then things would be different, if Mr Nugent had of been issued warnings about his contributions and persisted contrary to mod instruction then things would be very different.

As things stand the mods it would seem took all factors into consideration and as far as I can see took a decision for the good of the forum, considering the site rules, Mr Nugent's good standing with in the community and have not stepped beyond their remit.

It's being able to make that sort of judgement calls which is why people get asked to become mods in the first place.

You are still contradicting yourself. There are various sitewide rules being BROKEN by every single self-promotional post, including Atheist Ireland's. Your justification for this is "the mods said it's okay...". However, if the mods were to say it was okay for David Duke to push his particular agenda it all of a sudden doesn't matter what the mods say anymore and the sitewide rules come into play. This is a complete double-standard.

Doctor DooM

Brown Bomber wrote: »

You are still contradicting yourself. There are various sitewide rules being BROKEN by every single self-promotional post, including Atheist Ireland's. Your justification for this is "the mods said it's okay...". However, if the mods were to say it was okay for David Duke to push his particular agenda it all of a sudden doesn't matter what the mods say anymore and the sitewide rules come into play. This is a complete double-standard.

Good thing you're talking about something that has never happened, then.

If there was a horrific anti semetic forum I'm sure a horrific anti semetic would be welcome to speak in it, and then your point would make sense.

Morag

Exceptions often make the rule and there are guidelines and oversight in place for mods to ensure that no forum wanders too far.
You seem to think that it's a very black and white issue, it's not, but it is nice to see that you care enough about the site to raise is as a possible issue and check.

K-9

Michael Nugent wrote: »

This conversation reminds me of the quote attributed to Garret Fitzgerald:

"I can see that it works in practice, but does it work in theory?"

Ah Garret, brought a smile to my face and that is all I have to add.

K-9

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I respect your opinion, but let's take this example: the mods in politics decide that White Supremacist and former Klansman David Duke should be allowed to promote his organisation/website/books through boards, and proceeds to publish tons of racist and anti-semitic crap. Now what if the only justification given is "mods discretion"? Should we accept it? I don't think so.

If we had an avowedly racist board (which we will never have obviously) and David Duke came on to preach about his next group meeting, all good, why not?

Best example is hunting, some guy comes along advertising a local shooting club meets, as long as the community have no problem with it, all fine. An Animal Rights activist has no right to come along and moan about the shooting club, it isn't his community, he's hostile to the group, he can moan all he wants on the relevant board but he can't go onto the shooting board and and say that guy has no right to post a thread about his shooting club on, wait for it, shooting.

That's the great thing about boards, we've a shooting forum and an animal and pet issues board.

Penn

Sorry Brown Bomber, but the longer this goes on, the more it seems your issue is more about what he's posting than if he's allowed to post it. You've already been given examples of where advertising and promotion is allowed on Boards (dismissing it doesn't make it any less valid), and now you're talking more about how he's "pushing an agenda" and throwing out what he's doing as comparisons to what racists and anti-Semites might do (as opposed to comparing him to a racist or anti-Semite).

There's a guy who posts on the Pro Wrestling forum who constantly mentions his own site and podcast. Why is it allowed? Because in the past he has gotten interviews with pro wrestlers and allowed Boards users to ask some questions.

There was a poster on Games who was a games journalist. Why was he allowed to post on Boards? Because he occasionally released new game info here sooner than others.

There are examples everywhere of where advertising and promotion are allowed. The A&A mods clearly have no issue with Michael Nugent's posts. The majority of A&A regulars have no issue with Michael Nugent's posts. An Admin on this thread has already indicated that they have no issue with Michael Nugent's posts.

You can dismiss terms like "Discretion of the Moderator" all you like (even though I've already pointed out that that comes directly from the Boards.ie guidelines), but it doesn't make it any less valid. The mods have used their discretion for the benefit of the forum. Michael Nugent has stayed within a perfectly reasonable set or rules (eg. He hasn't cross posted among numerous forums, he doesn't post daily about what's happening with AI, his posts start new discussions which he joins in etc).

There is no issue here.

Benny_Cake

Brown Bomber wrote: »

That is interesting but an unfair comparison IMO books vs politicised atheism. Personally I find it charming that a library employee is making an effort to involve their local community through boards. The new world benifitting the old world.

It sounds as if your main issue here is not so much that Michael is posting information on events then, because if you think it's ok for Blanch public library to post details of events in the Dublin 15 forum, why would you have a problem with Michael Nugent doing the same in A&A? It kinda sounds as if your issues is that you don't like Atheist Ireland and disagree with Michael Nugent's opinions (which is fine, I disagree with many of them myself). Apologies if I'm misrepresenting you but that's the way it comes across.

We had a poster in the Christianity forum who was carrying out an online survey on behalf of the Irish Catholic Bishop's Conference. She sent me a message in advance asking if it was ok to post up the survey and I gave her the go-ahead because I thought it would be of interest to many of the regulars and when the results come out it will probably be discussed anyway. Now I could have just dismissed her as a shill but I used my discretion (the results should be interesting to say the least as someone posted the link in A&A!).

I'm not a regular in A&A so I'm not 100% familiar with Michael Nugent's posts but to be quite honest I think this should be left up to the mods there. As I said, although I would disagree with him quite a bit, anyone who speaks up for the right of others to hold beliefs and express opinions he disagrees with is ok in my book.

Chips Lovell

We let cycling clubs promote beginners spins etc. in the Cycling forum. All of them would be membership fee collecting organisations.

We also permit threads advertising upcoming sportives, charity rides and races. All of which would have an entry fee.

Why? We feel there is a sufficient level of interest among our user base in attending and discussing these events.

Brown Bomber

K-9 wrote: »

If we had an avowedly racist board (which we will never have obviously) and David Duke came on to preach about his next group meeting, all good, why not?

Best example is hunting, some guy comes along advertising a local shooting club meets, as long as the community have no problem with it, all fine. An Animal Rights activist has no right to come along and moan about the shooting club, it isn't his community, he's hostile to the group, he can moan all he wants on the relevant board but he can't go onto the shooting board and and say that guy has no right to post a thread about his shooting club on, wait for it, shooting.

That's the great thing about boards, we've a shooting forum and an animal and pet issues board.

Okay, but there is more to it than simply advertising events. Would a pro-hunting political lobbyist be allowed to lobby there and branch out to other forums with it's propaganda?

Also, the local hunting "events" i would assume are grassroots sporting, i.e. non partizan events. Nugent was flogging E200 tickets for the World Atheist Convention that included word famous speakers and would be focusing on societal change in Ireland.

Nodin

Benny_Cake wrote: »

It sounds as if your main issue here is not so much that Michael is posting information on events then, because if you think it's ok for Blanch public library to post details of events in the Dublin 15 forum, why would you have a problem with Michael Nugent doing the same in A&A? It kinda sounds as if your issues is that you don't like Atheist Ireland and disagree with Michael Nugent's opinions (which is fine, I disagree with many of them myself). Apologies if I'm misrepresenting you but that's the way it comes across.

............

To be blunt, I suspect that his problem is with the A&A forum (specifically the moderation team) rather than Michael Nugent, who just happens to be his battering ram of convenience.

Brown Bomber

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

We let cycling clubs promote beginners spins etc. in the Cycling forum. All of them would be membership fee collecting organisations.

We also permit threads advertising upcoming sportives, charity rides and races. All of which would have an entry fee.

Why? We feel there is a sufficient level of interest among our user base in attending and discussing these events.

Do you allow them to launch their websites on boards.ie? Do their websites feature a "DONATE" button prominently on their main page? Are these cycling clubs also political organisations? Do they lobby governments? Do they have an agenda? Do these clubs try to make other cyclists think in a certain way?

I get what where you are coming from but unless the answer is yes to all of the above question it is apples and oranges.

Chips Lovell

Well, now that you mention it, we allowed a thread about the launch of the new website for the main cycling lobby group in Ireland, who most certainly do have an agenda and lobby government.

Wibbs

Nodin wrote: »

To be blunt, I suspect that his problem is with the A&A forum (specifically the moderation team) rather than Michael Nugent, who just happens to be his battering ram of convenience.

Though I did see some of his points, I'm starting to agree with you N.

[-0-]

I'm a regular of Atheism & Agnosticism and Michael's contributions there are a great addition to the forum. Brown Bomber has been banned from the forum many times, so I don't take anything he has to say about how it is run seriously.

I'm glad he is publicly showing himself up here.

This is a non issue.

Michael Nugent

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I get where you are coming from but unless the answer is yes to all of the above question it is apples and oranges.

It is indeed apples and oranges. You seem to be coming around to accepting the idea of discretion in applying policies to grey areas.

• You seem to be okay with Blanchardstown Library advertising events, and indeed you find it charming, though as it stands you believe they are crossing a line when they advertise ticketed events.
  
• You seem to be okay with local hunting events being advertised, as long as they are grassroots sporting and not partisan, but you seem not to be okay with pro-hunting political lobbyists.
  
• You seem to be okay with cycling clubs promoting events under a series of conditions that you have described, or more accurately, questions that you have posed.

So when it comes down to looking at specific examples, you are not actually seeking a black and white version of the rules to be applied inflexibly. You accept that grey areas exist.

The question then arises: as a general procedural principle (and putting aside the detail of any specific example), who should have the flexibility to decide on the grey areas?

I think the most sensible answer is the moderators of each forum, with an appeals procedure for people who disagree with the moderators.

P. Breathnach

Wibbs wrote: »

Though I did see some of his points, I'm starting to agree with you N.

A matter brought here should be dealt with on its own merits, and not on the basis of any knowledge or supposition about the person who brings it here.

I'm not sure mod discretion is an adequate response. If it were, it would be a get out of jail free card for any mod in any circumstance, and this forum would be largely redundant. There should be an implicit qualifier: mod discretion, reasonably applied and broadly in line with overall boards policy.

That said, I take no position on the core question in this thread.

Brown Bomber

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Well, now that you mention it, we allowed a thread about the launch of the new website for the main cycling lobby group in Ireland, who most certainly do have an agenda and lobby government.

Okay, were there strings attached? Is this lobby group allowed to use boards to launch every campaign? Is this group allowed to politically lobby on your forum? Are they allowed to sell tickets for their events on boards? Are they allowed to open numerous threads that exclusively pushes their agenda?

Michael Nugent

P. Breathnach wrote: »

There should be an implicit qualifier: mod discretion, reasonably applied and broadly in line with overall boards policy.

Yes, I had assumed that implicit qualifier, and it would probably be better to make it explicit.

As a general point (and I am not talking specifically about boards here), grey areas in implementing policies are most likely to arise when an overall policy includes a combination of good aims, some of which can pull in different directions, and someone has to make a judgment as to how best to reconcile those aims in the context of the specific issue being that has arisen.

Sacksian

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I'm not sure mod discretion is an adequate response. If it were, it would be a get out of jail free card for any mod in any circumstance, and this forum would be largely redundant. There should be an implicit qualifier: mod discretion, reasonably applied and broadly in line with overall boards policy.

That's true but when I responded with "mod discretion", I assumed the qualifier "reasonably applied and broadly in line with overall boards policy" was implied. And I think almost everyone who responded similarly did too.

What counts as "reasonable" is obviously up for discussion, but there seems to be broad agreement on that as well.

Brown Bomber

Benny_Cake wrote: »

It sounds as if your main issue here is not so much that Michael is posting information on events then, because if you think it's ok for Blanch public library to post details of events in the Dublin 15 forum, why would you have a problem with Michael Nugent doing the same in A&A? It kinda sounds as if your issues is that you don't like Atheist Ireland and disagree with Michael Nugent's opinions (which is fine, I disagree with many of them myself). Apologies if I'm misrepresenting you but that's the way it comes across.

We had a poster in the Christianity forum who was carrying out an online survey on behalf of the Irish Catholic Bishop's Conference. She sent me a message in advance asking if it was ok to post up the survey and I gave her the go-ahead because I thought it would be of interest to many of the regulars and when the results come out it will probably be discussed anyway. Now I could have just dismissed her as a shill but I used my discretion (the results should be interesting to say the least as someone posted the link in A&A!).

I'm not a regular in A&A so I'm not 100% familiar with Michael Nugent's posts but to be quite honest I think this should be left up to the mods there. As I said, although I would disagree with him quite a bit, anyone who speaks up for the right of others to hold beliefs and express opinions he disagrees with is ok in my book.

Atheist Ireland is political, Blanch Library is not. You simply cannot compare a once-off survey with an ongoing campaign of political activism.

What would your answer be if Declan Ganley contacted you to request permission to promote his organisation/website, sell tickets to events, and request volunteers for actions Libertas were carrying out?

Because this is what is comparable. Not a homemade podcast or a survey.

Michael Nugent

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Nugent was flogging E200 tickets for the World Atheist Convention that included word famous speakers

I want to correct this, because it creates a misleading impression of Atheist Ireland as an avaricious commercial organisation.

• Firstly, the tickets for this event cost €100, not €200, and we also facilitated some people who could not afford that price.
  
• Secondly, it was a three-day weekend convention for which €200 or dearer would not have been an unusual price. We deliberately chose to keep the price low, and not to use the event to maximize profit. We started by announcing a small number of speakers, then gradually added more as the ticket sales allowed us to cover the costs of adding extra speakers.
• The event made a small surplus, which helped to cover some of the costs of the many free events that we run, some of which also feature international speakers.

As an aside, this is an example of one of the types of post that BB is complaining about me posting on A&A. Somebody posts inaccurate information about Atheist Ireland, I correct the information, and BB then categorizes my response under the collective description of “promoting/defending” Atheist Ireland.

Brown Bomber

[-0-] wrote: »

I'm a regular of Atheism & Agnosticism and Michael's contributions there are a great addition to the forum. Brown Bomber has been banned from the forum many times, so I don't take anything he has to say about how it is run seriously.

I'm glad he is publicly showing himself up here.

This is a non issue.

This is total bull****. I've never been banned, nevermind infracted. Get your facts straight or stop lying.

Bloodwing

It was mentioned by the mods of A+A that they are looking at this and one of the things being considered is a specific thread for Michael to post events in as opposed to a new thread every time.

Personally I can understand why some people have an issue with the way things are currently because it does seem to go against some of the rules and others have been banned for similar. The fact is though that Michael's posts are very relevant to the forum and they do spark discussion. The only question is should regular contributors be allowed to bend the rules slightly to promote something they have an interest in, only the mods/admins can decide that but I see no issue with it as long they don't use boards solely for that purpose.

Brown Bomber

Michael Nugent wrote: »

It is indeed apples and oranges. You seem to be coming around to accepting the idea of discretion in applying policies to grey areas.

Correct, I think we'd all agree that there are rules for the benefit of everyone as the spine of the site. Rules that can bend on a case-by-case basis when appyling common sense.

IMO your political lobbying/self-promotion/selling tickets and so on is so far beyond the pale of what you you describe as a grey area it's incredible.

Surely you are aware you are receiving preferential treatment? Countless banned members in the prison forum could attest to that?

Is there something that you contribute to the site that is so far above and beyond what anyone else gives that entitles you to this unique treatment?

Brown Bomber

Michael Nugent wrote: »

I want to correct this, because it creates a misleading impression of Atheist Ireland as an avaricious commercial organisation.

• Firstly, the tickets for this event cost €100, not €200, and we also facilitated some people who could not afford that price.
• Secondly, it was a three-day weekend convention for which €200 or dearer would not have been an unusual price. We deliberately chose to keep the price low, and not to use the event to maximize profit. We started by announcing a small number of speakers, then gradually added more as the ticket sales allowed us to cover the costs of adding extra speakers.
• The event made a small surplus, which helped to cover some of the costs of the many free events that we run, some of which also feature international speakers.

As an aside, this is an example of one of the types of post that BB is complaining about me posting on A&A. Somebody posts inaccurate information about Atheist Ireland, I correct the information, and BB then categorizes my response under the collective description of “promoting/defending” Atheist Ireland.

I apologise, it was a typo. I don't see how E100 vs E200 changes anything though. It was a commercial event that you made a profit from. You received free advertising space in boards.ie to do so. If I was paying for advertising space on boards that would piss me right off tbh. This is a flagrant abuse of the rules. Again, way beyond any grey area.

Michael Nugent

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Correct, I think we'd all agree that there are rules for the benefit of everyone as the spine of the site. Rules that can bend on a case-by-case basis when appyling common sense.

Okay. So, putting aside your personal opinion on the merits of any particular case, who do you think should have the flexibility to decide how to address any case where different people have different opinions?

Brown Bomber wrote: »

IMO your political lobbying/self-promotion/selling tickets and so on is so far beyond the pale of what you you describe as a grey area it's incredible.

Surely you are aware you are receiving preferential treatment? Countless banned members in the prison forum could attest to that?

Is there something that you contribute to the site that is so far above and beyond what anyone else gives that entitles you to this unique treatment?

I think you are mistaken in your belief that I am being treated uniquely.

From just a cursory check, all of the following have been promoted on A&A, in terms of events, launches, petitions, websites etc.

• Irish Skeptics Society (two-monthly lectures with admission charge)
• Irish Humanist Association
• Educate Together
• Cork Humanists
• UCD Secular Humanist Society
• NUIG Skeptics
• British Humanist Association
• European Skeptics Convention
• National demonstration to legislate for X case
• Protest the Pope march in London
• Proposed Ex-Christian support group
• Proposed DIT Atheist Society
• Proposed TCD Secular and Atheist Society

Are you also complaining about all of these posts? If so, why have you singled out only me? If not, why not?

My name is URL

Why not just give the guy a Representative Account so he can post updates and events news regarding AI without causing any confusion to those reading them? Does it really matter if it's non-commercial or not-for-profit?... don't a few other individuals have rep accounts despite them not being commercial entities?

Jaysus... ye gave Jim Corr a special account and he only ever posted once! =p

Brown Bomber

Michael Nugent wrote: »

Okay. So, putting aside your personal opinion on the merits of any particular case, who do you think should have the flexibility to decide how to address any case where different people have different opinions?

The mods of individual forums. However, their decisions must be formed within certain parameters dictated by whoever runs the site. One of these decisions is that advertising is not allowed.

Michael Nugent wrote: »

I think you are mistaken in your belief that I am being treated uniquely.

From just a cursory check, all of the following have been promoted on A&A, in terms of events, launches, petitions, websites etc.

You'll have to provide usernames of others who are using the site politically lobby as official representations of their respective pressure groups to demonstrate that you are not receiving uniquely special treatment.

Doctor DooM

Brown Bomber wrote: »

The mods of individual forums. However, their decisions must be formed within certain parameters dictated by whoever runs the site. One of these decisions is that advertising is not allowed.

Except an admin popped in here to say this isn't the case, that moderators are allowed use their discretion when it comes to this exact issue, so could you please stop saying this.

Michael Nugent

Brown Bomber wrote: »

The mods of individual forums. However, their decisions must be formed within certain parameters dictated by whoever runs the site.

Okay, we are agreed on that.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

One of these decisions is that advertising is not allowed.

The rule you refer to is 'Don't advertise your company'.

And it has to be read in conjunction with this rule:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/faq.php?faq=bie_faq_guidelines#faq_bie_faq_guidelines_discression

Discretion of the Moderator
If you think these rules bind the moderators hands, think again. The moderators have discretion to react and moderate as they see fit, in the best interests of the forum they take care of. You can challenge a decision using the Dispute Resolution Process, but don’t think for a moment you can use the guidelines above to find some semantic loophole to excuse your behaviour (people who do this are known as “rules lawyers” and are seen as a small step above trolls). It’s not going to work. The spirit of the law is more important than the wording of the law on boards.ie and our guidelines can and will change if and when there’s need.