€5335 for the Dept. of Social protection annual retired staff get together

Noel Kinsella

They are not called Civil Serpents for nothing. Snakes every last one of them (In my opinion)

suicide_circus

It's immoral and wrong, plain and simple.
Tax money being used to pay for a PARTY for former employees.....HSE salary increments being paid while the HSE is running 100s of millions deficit....so so so wrong, truly depressing

2ndcoming

listermint wrote: »

Do these people have the inability to organise / pay for this type of thing themselves ?

My mother was let go last week from a company she gave more than 20 years of her life to. Do you think there ex staff will get treated to yearly parties payed for just to say hi ?

When i read the article initially i though sure its a christmas party for hard pressed workers.

Retired staff!!! come on now its a piss take and not a funny one either.

Like most people, you don't have an issue with a paid for Christmas party for current staff. This doesn't happen, and would cost an enormous amount more, regardless of the fact that it seems to be more acceptable to most.

Most of these people are in their 70's and 80's, a lot of them widows with meagre pensions, regardless of what picture the Indo paints, most of them have a pension worth about 8 grand more than the contributory old age pension in exchange for 40 years work. I have no issue with them having a mass and what's basically a tea morning.

There are much more serious wastes of public money than this, it's a non-issue really, a Joe Duffy special.

TwoShedsJackson

Noel Kinsella wrote: »

They are not called Civil Serpents for nothing. Snakes every last one of them (In my opinion)

They're actually not called Civil Serpents at all. Except by you, who seems to think it's the height of wit.

suicide_circus

2ndcoming wrote: »

Like most people, you don't have an issue with a paid for Christmas party for current staff. This doesn't happen, and would cost an enormous amount more, regardless of the fact that it seems to be more acceptable to most.

Most of these people are in their 70's and 80's, a lot of them widows with meagre pensions, regardless of what picture the Indo paints, most of them have a pension worth about 8 grand more than the contributory old age pension in exchange for 40 years work. I have no issue with them having a mass and what's basically a tea morning.

There are much more serious wastes of public money than this, it's a non-issue really, a Joe Duffy special.

nonsense.
If you dont have a vested interest then your grasp on reality is pretty tenuous
In time of recession and hardship, when services and social welfare cuts are the order of the day you CANNOT pay for a ****ing party with public funds.

Noel Kinsella

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

They're actually not called Civil Serpents at all. Except by you, who seems to think it's the height of wit.

Ok "simple servants" does that suit you better ? And as far as your statement "They're actually not called Civil Serpents at all. Except by you, who seems to think it's the height of wit.[/QUOTE]" lots of people I know call them civil serpents.

Theta

What's the problem? These happen all the time, it normally an event for people who have retired that year so that they all get together and get thanked for a long term of service to the department. They did their jobs and there bit and they are getting thanked for it

Whats 5k for 250 people over there lifetime in the department? Say on average they all gave 10 years working there? Whats that? 2E a year per person? Come on lets grow up here. Most of these people will more than likely never see each other again.

Boombastic

Theta wrote: »

What's the problem? These happen all the time

Thats the problem

Theta wrote: »

Most of these people will more than likely never see each other again.

Why? Have they no phones, email, skype, facebook.....?

suicide_circus

Theta wrote: »

What's the problem? These happen all the time, it normally an event for people who have retired that year so that they all get together and get thanked for a long term of service to the department. They did there jobs and there bit and they are getting thanked for it

Whats 5k for 250 people over there lifetime in the department? Say on average they all gave 10 years working there? Whats that? 2E a year per person? Come on lets grow up here. Most of these people will more than likely never see each other again.

The fact that these happen "all the time" does not make the spending of public funds on unnessersary piss ups any less wrong.
The figures you give are also irrelevant. This money is gouged out of the working mans pay check to provide for essential services and social security, not poxy partys.

Ush1

Theta wrote: »

What's the problem? These happen all the time, it normally an event for people who have retired that year so that they all get together and get thanked for a long term of service to the department. They did their jobs and there bit and they are getting thanked for it

Whats 5k for 250 people over there lifetime in the department? Say on average they all gave 10 years working there? Whats that? 2E a year per person? Come on lets grow up here. Most of these people will more than likely never see each other again.

Doesn't matter if it was 1 cent. It's public money going on something beyond frivolous.

And what's this notion people have of wanting the tax they paid back as they've "earned" it and paid so much in. That isn't how taxes work I'm afraid.

Theta

suicide_circus wrote: »

The fact that these happen "all the time" does not make the spending of public funds on unnessersary piss ups any less wrong.
The figures you give are also irrelevant. This money is gouged out of the working mans pay check to provide for essential services and social security, not poxy partys.

How are they irrelevant? The people who the party is for have contributed the "working mans paycheck" that its being gouged from and im sure they wouldn't mind nor do I that 2 euro from the tax they or I have paid every year to be used to thank them at the end of it?

I work in the private sector just so we can make sure that you don't think i'm waiting for my extravagant 20 euro party at the end of my career.

MagicMarker

It's quite unbelievable that anyone can defend such a farcical use of our taxes. It's all the more unbelievable that people are actually saying that because these are OAPS, widows, have "meager" pensions that it's not so bad, that they've more than paid the state back in taxes all these years. I mean seriously, what kind of fucked up retarded logic is this?

Micky Dolenz

Noel Kinsella wrote: »

They are not called Civil Serpents for nothing. Snakes every last one of them (In my opinion)

Noel Kinsella wrote: »

[/S][/S][/U][/I][/I][/B][/B][/B][/B]
Ok "simple servants" does that suit you better ? And as far as your statement "They're actually not called Civil Serpents at all. Except by you, who seems to think it's the height of wit.

" lots of people I know call them civil serpents.[/QUOTE]

Mod

Banned- flaming.

2ndcoming

I'm sure they're all on Facebook. And Zoosk. When their not tweeting? You're aware we're talking about geriatric retirees here?

suicide_circus

Theta wrote: »

How are they irrelevant? The people who the party is for have contributed the "working mans paycheck" that its being gouged from and im sure they wouldn't mind nor do I that 2 euro from the tax they or I have paid every year to be used to thank them at the end of it?

I work in the private sector just so we can make sure that you don't think i'm waiting for my extravagant 20 euro party at the end of my career.

Thats the thing, if your private sector employer wants to throw you a party thats no problem, your employer is a private and presumably profitable enterprise.
The employer in this case, the state, is flat broke and in debt to the tune of many billions. So broke in fact that it cannot afford to provide its services to its customers (we the people) and is operating wholey on borrowed money. This employer cannot afford partys at this time.

Boombastic

2ndcoming wrote: »

I'm sure they're all on Facebook. And Zoosk. When their not tweeting? You're aware we're talking about geriatric retirees here?

Many capable older people use these services and I notice you left out my fist suggestion of telephone. Is it really their ex-employers responsibility to organise their social life for them?

jmayo

mango salsa wrote: »

So what?

A work party for some employees?

Except they weren't employees.

mango salsa wrote: »

5000 euros wouldnt have made up the respite grant!!!

You do know all the 5,000s add up.

But then again you are probably a public servant so basic accounting or more correctly budgetary principles don't apply.

Itsdacraic wrote: »

Shock? Really?

€5k out of a multi-billion euro budget.
Get over it.

As above, all those 5,000s add up and before you know it you have 100,000 or 500,000 and how many people deserving of that money miss out and how many more taxpayers are hit to pay for it.

Yet another apologist for the public sector with an overwhelming sense of entitlement.

MagicMarker wrote: »

It's quite unbelievable that anyone can defend such a farcical use of our taxes. It's all the more unbelievable that people are actually saying that because these are OAPS, widows, have "meager" pensions that it's not so bad, that they've more than paid the state back in taxes all these years. I mean seriously, what kind of fucked up retarded logic is this?

When the fook are people going to challenge public sector/state employees on this lie about how they pay tax and thus are due things in return.
They make themselves out to be net contributors to the system when it is the exact opposite.
Where does the money that pays their salaries comes from in the first place ?
A fair chunk of it comes from taxes on private sector workers and on private sector enterprise.
Take out the private sector contributions and lets see how long the public sector can sustain itself on "their taxes".

Spindle

I can't believe the amount of people defending this!

For one think I have no problem with the public sector in general, I do believe that there is an issue with some over paid management and also there are some areas where people need to work harder or more efficiently, equally there are some underpaid overworked staff there as well, but all that is for another thread.

What I do have an issue with is that 5,000 could employ someone for 2 months, so surely everybody should be refusing to have parties, then with all those savings you might actually be able to higher one or two more front line staff.

Also I don't see how this is a non-issue, waste is waste, when you are up to your eye balls in debt every saving counts. Also when the TDs stand up on their pulpits spewing about we all need to put on the green jumper, put our shoulder to the wheel etc etc, why can't they make the people in their own departments follow the line as well.

Also something which I haven't seen mentioned is why did they have to give the Catholic church a donation!!!! Not really where I want my money to be going, with the legacy they have left behind.

Spindle

jmayo wrote: »

E

When the fook are people going to challenge public sector/state employees on this lie about how they pay tax and thus are due things in return.
They make themselves out to be net contributors to the system when it is the exact opposite.

I never like this public versus private sector debate, it is always a them v us debate. When in fact it should be both private and public working together.

The public sector need the private as much as the private need the public sector.

People in the public sector do pay taxes and should benefit form the same protections as that as private sector employees. The issues are with a few top earners and inefficient management within the public sector. There is also a "this is my job I don't do anything outside of my role attitude" as well that needs to be adjusted.

I do have issue with the the defined benefit pension lot, as they never paid anywhere near enough tax for what their pension plan is worth. I know it is a political nightmare, but they really need to tackle some of those issues.

LivelineDipso

Yakult wrote: »

Its money being pumped backed into the economy

CIVIL SERVANT ALERT.

Odysseus

Spindle wrote: »

I can't believe the amount of people defending this!


Also something which I haven't seen mentioned is why did they have to give the Catholic church a donation!!!! Not really where I want my money to be going, with the legacy they have left behind.

Because the Church provided a service, the mass for those who died this year.

LivelineDipso

Boombastic wrote: »

Saddest thing about this is that some people are actually defending it, as if it is grand:rolleyes:

That's because boards is a civil service doss on the job fest.

Odysseus

LivelineDipso wrote: »

CIVIL SERVANT ALERT.

And so what if that poster is, what is your point? Are they second rate citizens now?

HondaSami

LivelineDipso wrote: »

That's because boards is a civil service doss on the job fest.

Yourself included ? what dept should you be working in now?

LivelineDipso

Odysseus wrote: »

Did you work there?

You are something else! The lenghts you are going to justify this disgusting, decadent display of Civil Servive "Up Yours We're Alright Jack!" is sickening in the extreme.

There are hundreds of thousands of emplyed people in this country who do not event get a christmas party as their employers need ever penny they can get to keep the companies solvents and their workers understand as they want to keep their jobs.

Civil Servants make me want to vomit.

LivelineDipso

HondaSami wrote: »

Yourself included ? what dept should you be working in now?

I am looking for a job and typing and sending out CVs.

Would you prefer I stood outside betting shops rubbing scratch cards?

LivelineDipso

Odysseus wrote: »

And so what if that poster is, what is your point? Are they second rate citizens now?

OH THE IRONY!

Odysseus

LivelineDipso wrote: »

You are something else! The lenghts you are going to justify this disgusting, decadent display of Civil Servive "Up Yours We're Alright Jack!" is sickening in the extreme.

There are hundreds of thousands of emplyed people in this country who do not event get a christmas party as their employers need ever penny they can get to keep the companies solvents and their workers understand as they want to keep their jobs.

Civil Servants make me want to vomit.

Well why should that poster expect to go to that party unless they worked there?

What do you want a bucket? I don't get a party either, my team pay for their own.

Should you not avoid these type of threads if you have a weak stomach?

HondaSami

LivelineDipso wrote: »

I am looking for a job and typing and sending out CVs.

Would you prefer I stood outside betting shops rubbing scratch cards?

You are just assuming posters on here are civil servants on the doss then?

I really have no opinion on what you should be doing, do what ever makes you happy.

MagicSean

No problem with a service and a small do for retired people. My local community centre does something similar for retired people in the area at Christmas. It's mostly supported by donations but the venue and staff are provided by public funds. I think it's important to stay in touch with pensioners. For some of them it's the only proper company they have. This is the kind of thing money should be going to in this country. People are acting like these retirees are somehow less important than others because they use to work for the HSE.

Spindle

Odysseus wrote: »

Because the Church provided a service, the mass for those who died this year.

As a State employer should they not be secular??? What about other faiths?? Why champion a hideous organization that has total lack of regard for the laws of our State with tax payers money?

Again I know it is only 5,000 euros, but it all counts, and it is tax payers money they are spending, I don't want them to spend my tax on rubbish, for people that are squirreling away loads more of my tax money. If they want to spend their own money for this then that is fine.

Gumbo

LivelineDipso wrote: »

Civil Servants make me want to vomit.

I think you need to speak to Joe..............

Odysseus

Spindle wrote: »

As a State employer should they not be secular??? What about other faiths?? Why champion a hideous organization that has total lack of regard for the laws of our State with tax payers money?

Again I know it is only 5,000 euros, but it all counts, and it is tax payers money they are spending, I don't want them to spend my tax on rubbish, for people that are squirreling away loads more of my tax money. If they want to spend their own money for this then that is fine.

I don't have any time for the Church myself; actually the few times I being in one this year has been for funerals and services like this.

I can't tell them not to hold a service in a church, and to be fair neither can anyone here. Regardless of how I feel about the CC, I am glad of that.

Boombastic

Odysseus wrote: »

..............................

I can't tell them not to hold a service in a church, and to be fair neither can anyone here. Regardless of how I feel about the CC, I am glad of that.

Yes they can, when it's their taxes that are paying for it

Odysseus

Boombastic wrote: »

Yes they can, when it's their taxes that are paying for it

Ring them up so, tell them you don't want to see this happening again. I'm sure they will take heed of your position.

jmayo

Spindle wrote: »

I never like this public versus private sector debate, it is always a them v us debate. When in fact it should be both private and public working together.

I and probably a lot of other private sector workers still in employment face the facts we may not have a job some day down the road, our pensions have been decimated over last 5/6 years and even then our pensions will in no way be linked to our final retirement salary, we will not get a nice multiple of our salary as a taxfree lump sum on retirement (we might get a watch or photframe if lucky) and we have had pay cuts or pay freezes in order to sustain our employers.
Yes we got pay rises in the good times, but we get the opposite when times are hard.
We take that as granted.

On the other hand we see a bunch of people who are often affectively unfirable, no matter how poorly they perform in their jobs, who often get pay increments because they are due them even though their employer is flat broke, who are often entitled to a tax free lump sum on retirement, a defined benefit pension linked to retirement salary and often current encumbent's salary.
Public sector workers demanded pay rises commensurate with private sector workers during the good times even though they always had the bonuses of better pensions and job security.

Services will be cut and taxes increased to guarantee that the position of the current public sector employees continues.

And yes I know the pensions position has changed for newer members of staff, just like starting salary, etc and I think that will cause tensions within the sector down the road.

So please tell me what I have in common with the public sector workers ?

They are fighting for the right to continue as is even though invariably that will cost me more in taxes and lost public services.

Spindle wrote: »

The public sector need the private as much as the private need the public sector.

People in the public sector do pay taxes and should benefit form the same protections as that as private sector employees.

There is a big difference here.
For the most part, all of a public sector employees salary is paid for by taxes and the fact they themselves pay taxes on these earnings just means they are repaying some of the taxes back to the exchequer.
In the vast majority of private sector workers cases their salaries are funded by the sales of their employer.
And yes I know that employer may be selling to public sector workers as well as sales to other private sector workers or exports to non Irish taxpayers/citizens.

Every taxpayer be it public or private should expect an adequate civil police service for their security, basic education for their children, and availablity of a basic decent health care for their taxes.

The thing is a lot of private sector workers see when they look at the ones who actually work for the state, and thus are also in receipt of tax funded salaries, si that they expect guaranteed pay increments, guaranteed employment, guaranteed defined benefit pensions and quiet often some other perks such as lavish sick leave, unvouched expenses (politicans are public servants), lump sum exit payments.
One example of this joke is that joan burton wanted private companies to fund sick leave all the while some public servants are the worse offenders at taking ridiculous amounts of sick days.

Spindle wrote: »

The issues are with a few top earners and inefficient management within the public sector. There is also a "this is my job I don't do anything outside of my role attitude" as well that needs to be adjusted.

The salaries given to top public servants would warrant a level of professionalism and responsibility that has been severly lacking.
Stand up roddy molloy, patrick neary, john hurley, brendan drumm.

The layers of management superfluous to requirements in areas such as HSE is an utter disgrace.
The attitude "this is my job I don't do anything outside of my role attitude" exists very much at the bottom as can be seen from dealing with hospital porters, technical, reception and admin staff.
And it is one of the reasons I despise unions who copperfasten it.

Spindle

Boombastic wrote: »

Yes they can, when it's their taxes that are paying for it

This is the point it is tax payers money, we should have a right to object to stupid wastage and spending like this.

I am all for a social welfare state for those that need it most, healthcare education etc etc.

But in this instance it was for a non-essential party, I am sure all invited could have came up with the 20 euro needed if they really wanted to have this get together.

If a company is in trouble going bankrupt all non-essential activities should be cut to save money and expenditure should be gone throw with a fine tooth comb, in an attempt to keep the company as a going concern.

No matter how trivial an expense it matters when your going to the wall, we as a country we are Bankrupt so it all matters.

Gumbo

jmayo wrote: »

our pensions have been decimated over last 5/6 years

I think this boat has sailed.
My private pension (PRSA) with AIB is up more now than it was at the height of the boom. It has grown by nearly 20% compared to my contributions from 2004-2009.

Are you saying all pensions are down or just using a headline from a paper a few years old?

Boombastic

Odysseus wrote: »

Ring them up so, tell them you don't want to see this happening again. I'm sure they will take heed of your position.

I have already emailed - I'll post the reply here if I ever get one. Are they answering the phones do you know?

You are right, they won't heed it, - and that's a problem, even if half the country complained they still wouldn't heed it because it's ingrained in the culture and sure it's always been done this way. They seeing nothing wrong with wasting money like this, can't see the problem at all. If fact they considered it appropriate to spend more money this year on the party than they did last year.

Change is whats needed and them heeding peoples complains of incidents and waste like this and adapting to the current climate would be a great first step. But change is not something government depts do well

Spindle

Boombastic wrote: »

I have already emailed - I'll post the reply here if I ever get one. Are they answering the phones do you know?

You are right, they won't heed it, - and that's a problem, even if half the country complained they still wouldn't heed it because it's ingrained in the culture and sure it's always been done this way. If fact they considered it appropriate to spend more money this year on the party than they did last year.

Change is whats needed and them heeding peoples complains of incidents and waste like this and adapting to the current climate would be a great first step. But change is not something government depts do well

That is the unelected civil servants for you, in league with a bunch of muppet union leaders, between them they have a nice deal going. :rolleyes:

Odysseus

Be fair, how would I know if they are answering their phone. Just becuase I work in one part of the HSE; it doesn't mean I have access to any Gov Depts.

I had to steal a heater from an empty office last week, I can't even get to speak to somebody about getting a heater for my office.

Spindle

jmayo wrote: »

So please tell me what I have in common with the public sector workers ?

Apart from the obvious, such as supporting families, paying bills, saving, etc.

You use the same public services that they use.

You pay taxes.

Your entitled to the same basic state benefits on retirement.

You are free to apply apply for jobs in the public sector it is not a closed system.

Your take home pay is/was cut.

Boombastic

Odysseus wrote: »

Be fair, how would I know if they are answering their phone. Just becuase I work in one part of the HSE; it doesn't mean I have access to any Gov Depts.

I had to steal a heater from an empty office last week, I can't even get to speak to somebody about getting a heater for my office.

I was just asking:p


It doesn't sit well though if even employees can't access someone to communicate with. Aren't we paying savage money for HR?

Spindle

Odysseus wrote: »

Be fair, how would I know if they are answering their phone. Just becuase I work in one part of the HSE; it doesn't mean I have access to any Gov Depts.

I had to steal a heater from an empty office last week, I can't even get to speak to somebody about getting a heater for my office.

This is the kind of rubbish that depresses me, there should be no way that you are left to rot in bad facilities and can't get in contact with somebody to get a heater to keep you warm. And if you did get in contact with someone have to go through red-tape and forms just to get something done.

This is why I never like public v private sector debates, as working in either does not mean you are working in dream job where everything is perfect.

Although I can't understand how you can defend frivolous spending on parties when there is not that much money about.

Boombastic

€5335 would buy 133 heaters in DID




Better to let the patients and staff freeze though and fill the old ones up with booze and smoked salmon

The Dept of Social Protection spent €12,880,052,000 in the year to the end of November - about €2,800 per person in the country.

€5,335 for a party in Busáras for former staff won't make any difference.

I would be more annoyed that the event started off with a mass and having to get someone to go back and figure out how much was spent on coat hangers.

Boombastic

Deleted User wrote: »

The Dept of Social Protection spent €12,880,052,000 in the year to the end of November - about €2,800 per person in the country.

€5,335 for a party in Busáras for former staff won't make any difference.

I would be more annoyed that the event started off with a mass and having to get someone to go back and figure out how much was spent on coat hangers.

Party in Busáras, is this another party they had?

Boombastic

Boombastic wrote: »

Party in Busáras, is this another party they had?

The letter in the OP says the party was in held in Aras Mhic Dhiarmada canteen - better known as Busáras (unless there is another Aras Mhic Dhiarmada I am unaware of)

Edit:Busáras

Boombastic

Deleted User wrote: »

The letter in the OP says the party was in held in Aras Mhic Dhiarmada canteen - better known as Busáras (unless there is another Aras Mhic Dhiarmada I am unaware of)

Them and their fancy names, the department of social protection has offices on the upper floor though, .


This is only 1 party over €500 declared in the FOI request. There are more!! This party didn't just cost the €5335. The wages and time of the people organising also have to be taken in to account. The HR person who bought the gifts, the mail room workers...and I would question the amount of money spent on franking the envelopes, seems excessive for postage


With a backlog of 9,000 applicants these staff have more important things to be doing

Zillah

There are people having to drop out of college mid-education and move back home with their families because their grants weren't coming through - grants which were needed to feed them and pay rent. For some of them even a few hundred quid would have kept them going. Even say, 1000 each...that's five people who might never get a college degree now.

Sure hope it was a good fucking party.