Views of Pornography?

Eramen

orestes wrote: »

Ah, so we have gone from moralising about the societal and personal evils of porn, through the science of addiction and the roundabout of neuroscience, taken a slight detour down circumcision drive, and have safely arrived at our destination of hysterical soap-boxing. Think of the children, rabble rabble, dey tukk ar jaaabzzzz, etc..

Just knock one out man, all this stress isn't good for you.

I'm afraid not. I'm actually highlighting Brotherhood and masculinity, I feel all men should partake in it. You feel differently? You believe that the porn industry has had no cultural impact? Mind-blowing stuff. Why didn't you respond to the scientific explanation?

orestes

Eramen wrote: »

I'm afraid not. I'm actually highlighting Brotherhood and masculinity, I feel all men should partake in it. You feel differently? You believe that the porn industry has had no cultural impact? Mind-blowing stuff. Why didn't you respond to the scientific explanation?

Since I couldn't be bothered re-typing it, and you didn't bother reading it, I'm going to take the weird step of quoting myself

Daveysil15

Wow how did a light-hearted discussion about porn turn into such a deep and philosophical debate? I was only gone a few hours!

wexie

Eramen wrote: »

In a nutshell, all animals have reproduction time-cycles (the optimum intervals for sexual activity in regards to positive overall health), and humans are no exception.

After sex where ejaculation occurs there starts a recuperation period for both male and female in which the bio-chemical make-up of each sex reaches pre-copulation and normative levels which is required for the healthy functioning of all organisms, be it metabolism, brain functionality etc.

In rats this reproductive time cycle was observed to be 2-3 weeks. Now rats do copulate more frequently if they have several mates, but the longer they stay with the same mate the less they are prone to sexual activity, and thus fall back into natural sexual routines. If new mates are introduced the rat will go crazy in a frenzy of sexual activity. This known as the Coolidge effect - the automatic response to novel mates.

Porn is highly similar to this in that it produces novel mates in digital form for consumption by the user. The Coolidge effect becomes noticeable after new 'novel mates' pop up one after the other and compels the user to sexual activity. You see, evolution has prepared our brains in this manner to preserve the species via our genetic material. New mates equals more chances of survivability. The thing is, porn has turned this on its head. It becomes a question of sexing by habit, not by need or reproductive time cycles.


The problem is that when testosterone in releases with great frequency it upsets the chemical-hormonal balance of the body, a balance that is required for immune, mental and physical health in an optimum way. Often it manifests by way of fatigue, irritability, erectile dysfunction (now proven), sexual dysfunctions, stress, and depression.

We all know that low testosterone levels are a major contributing factor to disorders and disease, its just that now we know that it may actually be more threatening then we first anticipated.

On the addiction side, the dopamine released by constant sexual stimulation wrecks havoc with the brain receptors of the inner cortex, and normal pleasurable experiences become dull. This leads on to social/mental health problems as the addiction takes it toll as users seek greater highs and spend more time with the addiction. He/she literately doesn't know when to stop, even at the expense of his/her own health. This is why I say Evolution has not prepared our brain for porn and were all my arguments arise.

These are just some of the concerns I have. I first took on the No Fap challenge (90 days no Porn/Masturbation) out of interest, and the results were surprising to me. I actually function far better than I ever have, I feel like my body is at optimal levels and really feel younger physically speaking, better stability of mind, higher concentration & productivity and much better socially, with women and men in general (I was never bad with women before either) . I don't know the exact reason but bio-chemical properties reaching normal levels which regular masturbation/porn depleted certainly have a part to play.

Lastly, thank you for your post. It was the most intelligent response made to me here all day, a simple "Why do you believe in X?". It is a concise, logical question. I wish I was asked sooner so I could nail down the real questions people might have had sooner, and the discussion would have progressed. But people have their ideology.

Maybe now others will be willing to look into all this, it's not some kind of conspiracy et al, there is solid reasoning. Check out the links in my sig for more info, and also, don't hesitate to try out the challenge, it's an experience!

Can I just point out that some of us grownups actually (occasionally/regularly) might just possibly orgasm/ejaculate by means other than masturbation?

You know...the icky way?

So you're now telling me not only do I need to stop scratching Yoda behind the ears but I need to stop keeping herself happy?

Or is there some kind of optimum amount of marital intercourse we should stick to in order to stop society from collapsing? Please do enlighten me?

hooradiation

Daveysil15 wrote: »

Wow how did a light-hearted discussion about porn turn into such a deep and philosophical debate? I was only gone a few hours!

it actually didn't, it just kinda looks that way.

mikom

BroScience

Serious business.

Eramen

mikom wrote: »

BroScience

Serious business.

Religion-bashing, now science-bashing.. AH has no crutch left to stand on! OMG

Nodin

Eramen wrote: »

Religion-bashing, now science-bashing.. AH has no crutch left to stand on! OMG

....science is being bashed? Can't say I've noticed. People seem more interested in slagging off the nonsense you posted at the moment.

Eramen

wexie wrote: »

Can I just point out that some of us grownups actually (occasionally/regularly) might just possibly orgasm/ejaculate by means other than masturbation?

You know...the icky way?

So you're now telling me not only do I need to stop scratching Yoda behind the ears but I need to stop keeping herself happy?

Or is there some kind of optimum amount of marital intercourse we should stick to in order to stop society from collapsing? Please do enlighten me?

The reproduction time-cycle I talked about is all about normal sexual functions with among people and their time-scales/needs etc.

Porn though, being a form of self-sex though novelty mates is certainly not a part of this rule from an evolutionary sexual behavior standpoint. It's based around habit rather than actual sexual needs. The reason why it becomes habit based is because of the primal inner cortex receptors and their dopamine release, the substance which is the centerpiece for all compulsive or pleasurable activities.

Think a fat man eating a high calorie burger, why does he do it, even though he knows it's harmful to himself? It's because of the pleasure response. The same is true with porn addiction & masturbation, the only difference is people aren't aware of the potential hazards.

It's the dopamine release that is crucial to forming an addiction. Normal sexual relationships and everything that goes with them tends to not cause the receptor malfunction at all. You won't have to tell your woman "Soz, no seks 4 me" lol. You'd be a dead man if that were true.

Daveysil15

I think I've just walked into an encyclopedia.

Madam_X

There's nothing wrong with speculating that exposure to hardcore porn, with its very misogynistic overtones (I know the actresses choose to do the work and are paid well, but the depictions of them being subjugated are still disturbing; plus I don't get why there is so much dismissal for the suggestion that maybe some of them were abused when younger/are in those films to pay for addiction... it can be the case, and has been the case; I have researched it) from adolescence might cause those viewers to have a distorted view of sex and sexuality. Even though it's fantasy, that doesn't stop the line being blurred for some.

To use mainstream movies as an analogy: In the 1950s, Dracula, which just looks silly and camp now, had people leaving the cinemas, fit to be sick; in the 1970s it was the same for The Exorcist and The Texas Chainsaw Massacre - now those two films are tame.

My point is: while it's silly to suggest movies and video-games in and of themselves will cause people (who have no underlying issues) to do extreme stuff because they saw it in a movie/game, prolonged exposure DOES lead to desensitisation, so it's not unreasonable to wonder whether this could be problematic for teen sexuality today.

mikom

Eramen wrote: »

The reproduction time-cycle I talked about is all about normal sexual functions with among people and their time-scales.

Porn though, being a form of self-sex though novelty mates is certainly not a part of this rule from an evolutionary sexual behavior standpoint. It's based around habit rather than actual sexual needs. The reason why it becomes habit based is because of the primal inner cortex receptors and their dopamine release, the substance which is the centerpiece for all compulsive or pleasurable activities.

Think a fat man eating a high calorie burger, why does he do it, even though he knows it's harmful to himself? It's because of the pleasure response. The same is true with porn addiction & masturbation, the only difference is people aren't aware of the potential hazards.

It's the dopamine release that is crucial to forming an addiction. Normal sexual relationships and everything that goes with them tends to not cause the receptor malfunction at all. You won't have to tell your woman "Soz, no seks 4 me" lol. You'd be a dead man if that were true.

There is no evidence that fapping to internet porn causes negative changes in the dopamine-reward system. The case you pseudo-scienced about with the rats simply extrapolated from animal models.

BROSCIENCE.

kowloon

admiralofthefleet wrote: »

yeah you can get 16:9 now and widescreen

Don't forget 3D, it's very effective.

Nodin

Daveysil15 wrote: »

I think I've just walked into an encyclopedia.

...the 1858 Encyclopedia For Gentlemen.

Nodin

kowloon wrote: »

Don't forget 3D, it's very effective.

Now funny as the mockery is, we shouldn't forget the real human toll this medium can take.

Eramen

Madam_X wrote: »

There's nothing wrong with speculating that exposure to hardcore porn, with its very misogynistic overtones (I know the actresses choose to do the work and are paid well, but the depictions of them being subjugated are still disturbing; plus I don't get why there is so much dismissal for the suggestion that maybe some of them were abused when younger/are in those films to pay for addiction... it can be the case, and has been the case; I have researched it) from adolescence might cause those viewers to have a distorted view of sex and sexuality. Even though it's fantasy, that doesn't stop the line being blurred for some.

To use mainstream movies as an analogy: In the 1950s, Dracula, which just looks silly and camp now, had people leaving the cinemas, fit to be sick; in the 1970s it was the same for The Exorcist and The Texas Chainsaw Massacre - now those two films are tame.

My point is: while it's silly to suggest movies and video-games in and of themselves will cause people (who have no underlying issues) to do extreme stuff because they saw it in a movie/game, prolonged exposure DOES lead to desensitisation, so it's not unreasonable to wonder whether this could be problematic for teen sexuality today.

You are right. We can see the effects the film/Hollywood industry has had on popular culture and what's more is we can easily and openly discuss them. The same is not true for porn in the sense of discussion. People are not open to debate for this for one reason or another (embarrassing, why?) and insist that the porn industry is having no cultural impact at all. I think its rather silly to say that when we all know IT IS having cultural/social effects on society. It's had an impact in the same way that you have described with cinema.

You can't simultaneously claim that 'porn is a fact of life, people will use it for good or ill' and at the same time say it's had no social effects whatsoever. It's doesn't make any sense.

GalwayGuy2

@Madame X

Would women watching porn, with a misogynistic overtone, from a young age turn into misogynists?

And what do you think about E's notion of brotherly fraternity protecting society?

Brain Stroking

Eramen wrote: »

You are right. We can see the effects the film/Hollywood industry has had on popular culture and what's more is we can easily and openly discuss them. The same is not true for porn in the sense of discussion. People are not open to debate for this for one reason or another (embarrassing, why?) and insist that the porn industry is having no cultural impact at all. I think its rather silly to say that when we all know IT IS having cultural/social effects on society. It's had an impact in the same way that you have described with cinema.

You can't simultaneously claim that 'porn is a fact of life, people will use it for good or ill' and at the same time say it's had no social effects whatsoever. It's doesn't make any sense.

I'm sorry but you are going to need to show me some stats that porn is having a noticeable effect on society. Where are they? I am not talking about a study done by this group or that group. I am not talking about your opinion etc as that seems to be on one road only and therefore inadmissible. Where are the stats - cold hard stats and not just a feeling and not just what someone said in an article. I want to see where porn has had an effect - you've seen it as you say above. Enlighten everyone.
I'm about to walk home from work now. Will i see the effects on my way home?

Brain Stroking

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

@Madame X

Would women watching porn, with a misogynistic overtone, from a young age turn into misogynists?

Would they not be more likely to turn into submissive types? I find that sometimes debates like these seem to underestimate the ability of any consumer to actually see what they are watching for what it is.

Madam_X

But Brain Stroking, I'm not suggesting those who watch porn immediately think that's how it's done and they're going to do it that way... however a more insidious, subconscious desensitisation to sexual acts that most people would rather not do though, in the same way that horror movies don't scare us today as they did 40 years ago... is that a possibility? I'm not saying it is, but I'm asking.

Eramen wrote: »

You are right. We can see the effects the film/Hollywood industry has had on popular culture and what's more is we can easily and openly discuss them. The same is not true for porn in the sense of discussion. People are not open to debate for this for one reason or another (embarrassing, why?) and insist that the porn industry is having no cultural impact at all.

I don't know how much of an impact it has had, but I'm simply saying there's nothing wrong with asking the question whether it has.
I would say discussion is stifled because of cat-calls of "prude" and "killjoy" and in the worst case scenario: "Man-hating bitch" - none of which necessarily apply of course. There are many who are at pains to show how liberated and edgy and no-holds-barred they are too.

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

@Madame X

Would women watching porn, with a misogynistic overtone, from a young age turn into misogynists?

Well I didn't express any concern that hardcore porn (and I'm only talking about hardcore) would turn boys into misogynists. I simply said there is nothing wrong with being concerned that it might cause a warped view of sex/sexuality for some of those who have had easy access to it since adolescence.

And what do you think about E's notion of brotherly fraternity protecting society?

No opinion on that one.

Eramen

Legitimate question: How many of you guys watch porn regularly? (as if I will receive honest answers)

GalwayGuy2

Legitimate question: How many of you guys watch porn regularly? (as if I will receive honest answers)

Personally, I think we should fully legalize pornography and make it completely researchable by the government and various intrest groups. Background checks, psychiatric, protection, health-care if something happens, and thinking more about what your showing. Make some humour, or some loving, and teach, both men and women, respect for whichever gender they are attracted to.

@Madame X

Yeah, sorry I did put words into your mouth. It's just there's a current trend of thinking, man up campaign a little here, that all men are misogynists in waiting and I could go into the whole objectification thing, but I won't.

But Brain Stroking, I'm not suggesting those who watch porn immediately think that's how it's done and they're going to do it that way... however a more insidious, subconscious desensitisation to sexual acts that most people would rather not do though, in the same way that horror movies don't scare us today as they did 40 years ago... is that a possibility? I'm not saying it is, but I'm asking.

Tbf, that may not be a bad thing. As long as both parties are happy with it (and there isn't admittedly anything psychologically odd going on), it may be good to loosen people up about sexuality.

Richard Dower

Porn has become mainstream and more and more acceptable....the HUGE explosion in the number of performers in the last 5-10 years is shocking. Near;y 35,000 and with the recesson that number is climbing.

Mainstream movies are featuring pornstars more and more with some like Sasha Grey breaking through to the mainstream. It has become more socially acceptable and will continue to be.

Corkfeen

Eramen wrote: »

Legitimate question: How many of you guys watch porn regularly? (as if I will receive honest answers)

I don't watch porn regularly, in fact it doesn't appeal to me particularly(when I was younger it would have) however you only appear to intend on accepting answers where people say they're addicted. I hope the view is nice from up there .....*waves*

Eramen

Madam_X wrote: »

I don't know how much of an impact it has had, but I'm simply saying there's nothing wrong with asking the question whether it has.
I would say discussion is stifled because of cat-calls of "prude" and "killjoy" and in the worst case scenario: "Man-hating bitch" - none of which necessarily apply of course. There are many who are at pains to show how liberated and edgy and no-holds-barred they are too.

True. We don't know the actual extent of effect it has had, not enough data exists to make a definite judgment as to the that, but enough exists to know that is has had certain real-world cutlural implications for society. To try and smother such a debate to me is just a product of ideology and a possible admission of a sympathy or interest in porn (not that I'm against that) and the preservation of the status quo i.e no regulation for the porn industry. People just must be helped made aware through discussion how porn is affecting us as a society, a culture and what is the health effects we can document specifically in regard to porn/masturbation addiction which we are just seeing the tip of the iceberg.


A good example :

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/cupids-poisoned-arrow/201107/porn-induced-sexual-dysfunction-growing-problem

Richard Dower

Eramen wrote: »

Legitimate question: How many of you guys watch porn regularly? (as if I will receive honest answers)

When the mood strikes, i have an admitted weakness for Jenna Haze

Brain Stroking

Madam_X wrote: »

But Brain Stroking, I'm not suggesting those who watch porn immediately think that's how it's done and they're going to do it that way... however a more insidious, subconscious desensitisation to sexual acts that most people would rather not do though, in the same way that horror movies don't scare us today as they did 40 years ago... is that a possibility? I'm not saying it is, but I'm asking.

I find that any comparison with 40 years ago in terms of consumer consumption of any form of certain forms of media to be irrelevant. We are never going back to that time technologically or from a consumer perspective. 40 years ago my dad would have broken himself with excitement to see a live soccer match. Today there are about 20 on per day.
Porn is a good example to look at because, like it or not, for some reason humans like watching other humans have sex. Sex, because of the grip of religion etc, has been pretty taboo until the almost recent past. Nowadays people are more open and that is a good thing. Porn has exploded since the 1990s with the advent of the internet but, if people didnt like porn, then simple supply and demand says it would not have grown the way it has.

My opinion is that, so long as you arent hurting anybody and have third party consents, then you can do whatever you like. If that means i want to shag a plank of wood then so be it.

I really dont see why any man would want to join a club based around (not) ****. In fact, i reckon more porn and **** would solve a lot of problems elsewhere in the world.

The poster annoying everyone here has been spouting opinion as fact, has insulted Irish men with no knowledge of their sexual habits and immediately presumes before anyone has an opportunity to respond ie "how many guys masturbate here? (i just know i'm going to be lied to)" - who wants to engage with someone like that?

Eramen

Porn Effects on Society and its views on sex, health and relationships:



Regular Porn use leaves Italian men with sexual dysfunction and health issues:

http://www.ansa.it/web/notizie/rubriche/english/2011/02/24/visualizza_new.html_1583160579.html

http://italianalmanac.org/life/libido.htm

German study finds increased porn use linked with memory impairments:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23167900

Porn addiction and human behavior

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/cupids-poisoned-arrow/201106/ominous-news-porn-users-internet-addiction-atrophies-brains

jaffacakesyum

Porn, like most things in the world, in moderation is absolutely fine. I find it to be a load of sh1t personally (maybe it's just the porn I've seen but it's been crap, fake, clearly not pleasurable for the woman etc.) but each to their own - have absolutely no problem with people watching porn.

I think it can be healthy in some ways - developing yourself, accepting sex as a perfectly normal healthy thing, enjoying yourself, getting rid of the "Catholic guilt" we've had for so long.

Equally, I think it may have negative effects. People may be overreliant on it, may become addicted to it, and although I've no proof of this I firmly believe (in most likely a small minority of cases) that some men watch so much porn and believe it to be 'real' in that they believe women will "like it rough" and "copy" things they see in porn. Now I'm sure a lot of women do like whats done in porn and as long as this is discussed and mutually agreed on by consenting adults, fine by me! But I've had some unfortunate expericnes with guys who could have just been assholes, or perhaps they saw too much porn and were copying what they saw, I don't know. Again, no proof just speculation. Several of my female friends have had similar stories

Madam_X

Brain Stroking wrote: »

I find that any comparison with 40 years ago in terms of consumer consumption of any form of certain forms of media to be irrelevant. We are never going back to that time technologically or from a consumer perspective. 40 years ago my dad would have broken himself with excitement to see a live soccer match. Today there are about 20 on per day.

That's exactly my point - horror movies are no big deal today because we're used to them, and thus we are less scared by stuff that would have terrorised us 40 years ago.

Porn is a good example to look at because, like it or not, for some reason humans like watching other humans have sex.

I'm not talking about run-of-the-mill sex and oral and a bit of anal, I'm talking about the extreme acts in hardcore porn; fantasy (if er... that's your thing) and not reality, but would a lot of exposure to it from a young age normalise it? Make girls and guys think choking and aggressive anal sex and cumming on the eyes and verbal abuse is the norm and they're prudes and abnormal for not wanting to partake?

My opinion is that, so long as you arent hurting anybody and have third party consents, then you can do whatever you like. If that means i want to shag a plank of wood then so be it.

Well me too but I don't see how that's relevant to what I'm positing?

Brain Stroking

Eramen wrote: »

Porn Effects on Society and its views on sex, health and relationships:

http://www.ansa.it/web/notizie/rubriche/english/2011/02/24/visualizza_new.html_1583160579.html

http://italianalmanac.org/life/libido.htm

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/30/japan-population-decline-youth-no-sex_n_1242014.html

http://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-news/2012/04/29/why-some-japanese-young-people-have-no-interest-in-sex

First link is an articles from a website that i have never heard of.

Second link is a SHOCKING revelation that watching porn and emptying your sack can lead to a loss of libido - NOOOOOOO

Third and fourth are articles describing the same thing ie a higher rate of Japanese teens than usual with no interest in sex. No mention of porn though. They mention "virtual worlds" - that says World of Warcraft to me, not Spankwire.

Is that it? Where do us "weak" irish men come into your extrapolations?

I find it funny that we all had to go through a longwinded treatise on the ramifications of porn on men yet same blusterings are based on the huffington post and the italian daily mail :pac:

GalwayGuy2

It refers to Japanese young men who have rejected their culture's traditional definition of masculinity, and seemingly eschew relationships with the opposite sex as part.

Sounds like the Japanese version of the "gay agenda". Eh, I mean that mockingly.

Brain Stroking

Madam_X wrote: »

That's exactly my point - horror movies are no big deal today because we're used to them, and thus we are less scared by stuff that would have terrorised us 40 years ago.

I'm not talking about run-of-the-mill sex, I'm talking about the extreme acts in hardcore porn; fantasy (if er... that's your thing) and not reality, but would a lot of exposure to it from a young age normalise it? Make girls and guys think choking and aggressive anal sex and cumming on the eyes and verbal abuse is the norm and they're prudes and abnormal for not wanting to partake?
Sex, because of the grip of religion etc, has been pretty taboo until the almost recent past. Nowadays people are more open and that is a good thing.

Well me too but I don't see how that's relevant to what I'm positing?

I wasnt specifically answering only you.

Because we are now more desensitized to horror, what has happened? Can you spot an increase in any illegal or immoral activities because Hostel replaced Freddie Kreuger?

The core of your argument simply means parents need to get tech-savvy and block their kids from watching. Otherwise face the consequences. I am not going to miss out on watching Japanese girls have sex with African tribal elders just so mammy and daddy can watch Eastenders in peace with the kids on the computer in the next room.

Eramen

Brain Stroking wrote: »

First link is an articles from a website that i have never heard of.

Second link is a SHOCKING revelation that watching porn and emptying your sack can lead to a loss of libido - NOOOOOOO

Third and fourth are articles describing the same thing ie a higher rate of Japanese teens than usual with no interest in sex. No mention of porn though. They mention "virtual worlds" - that says World of Warcraft to me, not Spankwire.

Is that it? Where do us "weak" irish men come into your extrapolations?

I find it funny that we all had to go through a longwinded treatise on the ramifications of porn on men yet same blusterings are based on the huffington post and the italian daily mail :pac:

It's based on the findings of the Italian Society of Andrology and Sexual Medicine, so your issue is not really relevant. I'm beginning to suspect that you are in denial tbh. Is facts important to you? Do you change your world-view easily when new information is revealed that you didn't previously know?

I added a couple more studies. I'll post more when I can.

Corkfeen

Eramen wrote: »

It's based on the findings of the Italian Society of Andrology and Sexual Medicine, so you issue is not really relevant. I'm beginning to suspect that you are in denial tbh. Is facts important to you? Do you change your world-view easily when new information is revealed that you didn't previous know?

I added a couple more legitimate studies. I'll post more when I can.

Could you actually produce a study that we can read that discusses societal impacts rather than websites posting their opinion and selectively quoting. (My Italian is fairly shoddy so the APA or something along those lines would be preferable)It would seem obvious that excessive masturbation would result in a libido drop. Will you also admit that the Japanese situation is unrelated to your claims? Also, numerous studies should exist if it's such a massive issue.

I think we can feel some small amount of sympathy for Eramen. I have seen his kinds before (assuming he is not just a troll but even if he is we can use him as a representation of the people he is a caricature of but who actually do exist). They have gotten over their own personal addiction to something - in his case porn - and go on a holy war against it ranting and raving.

In essence you can say people like that have their heart in the right place - but they are likely doing their own cause more harm than good by sweeping around statements like how you are destroying society or throwing out some variant of "get out more" or "get a life" at all and sundry. The language spewed gives the impression that anyone who uses porn in his eyes is instantly a waster - ruining their lives - an addict - dangerous and damaging.

And again we can feel some sympathy for such a person. To them a return to porn use even at a modicum level would be to stare into the abyss and risk plunging into porn and orgasm and masturbation addiction all over again. Alcoholics are the same. When they recover the idea of even one drink is terrifying because they know how smoothly it links to the next one - and the next one - - - and so on.

The only thing I agree with in his "message" here is that addiction is a problem in our society. But not on the mass scale and society destroying levels his own addiction driven paranoia has painted in his own head. Those addicted to alcohol - porn - drugs - gambling - computer games - fast and sugary food - are all in the vast minority compared to the rest of us who use them moderately and controlled.

I indulge in porn on occasion. As do my girlfriends. Sometimes we do together. Sometimes apart. We have even produced some small amount of it ourselves for our own enjoyment and are enjoying working on an epic script for a porn film that we may or may not some day film for real.

Am I the socially inept lifeless waster and entirely unproductive that Eramen wants to paint? Anything but. I have yet to meet a single person as productive as I am these days - though I apologize for blowing my own trumpet on that one - I am simply the polar opposite of the image that so horrifies Eramens mind.

Does the minority issue however mean people like Eramen should shut up and cop on as there is no real problem? Of course not. Addiction IS a real problem in Ireland and around the world and we need to raise awareness of it and help people deal with it and help people recognize the signs of it in others around them before it is too late. It is one of those great issues that society has much work to do to raise consciousness and awareness.

As at least one other poster on the thread has so lucidly pointed out however the worst - and alas most common - error we make in our society is to blame the thing people are addicted TO rather than addiction itself. If someone gets addicted to porn - to hell with porn and bring out the ban hammer. If people get addicted to alcohol and turn to violence on the streets or homelessness or beating their wife - to hell with alcohol and the current licensing hours and so forth.

Blaming the thing addicted to is not the correct target. Addiction tends to be a symptom of other underlying issues in a persons life and railing against the target of individual addictions - let alone with the pointless bombastic and sweeping language employed by Eramen - will help no one.

Again I think his heart (again assuming it is not a troll but people like him if not him still hold true) is in the right place but his way of going about it is likely to push people away from his cause rather than towards it. Alas my experience with such people tells me it will be years rather than days before his passionate fatwa cools enough for him to suspect this himself - let alone recognize it.

He wants people to take control of their own lives. Sure. Some of us have. And in doing so we have decided porn at some level is to be part of that life. Taking control of our lives does not mean - as much as he clearly wants it to mean - making the same choices as him and giving up the same things as him. Taking control of ones life means living it how you want. Not how someone on a holy war against porn on a random internet forum wants you to live it. Nor are our standards of what constitutes being "masculine" the same as his. Nor should they be. Ever.

awec

This is the internet. If you look hard enough you'll find some study somewhere that proposes some ridiculous theory.

It's important that people aren't suckered into believing they are factual, and then regurgitating them as fact on an internet forum whilst trying to come across as superior.

philologos

Right, let me get a chance to respond to some of this.

1ZRed wrote: »

Not even Jesus could've predicted that response!!

We'll be seeing you for good if that's the case

I'm perfectly sure that anyone could have predicted that I work a 9 - 6 job and that I need to work to live. My life doesn't revolve around responding to your posts irrespective of how much I feel it is good to make a good contribution to the discussion at hand.

I'll respond to as much as I can, and I want to get into discussing this. I will also be grouping responses together if the same topic is discussed:

1. Is pornography dehumanising?

1ZRed wrote: »

Well if you see all it is, and all who is in it, as degraded and dehumanised then that is your view on it and is actually how you truly see it, which is wrong.

Well no. Think about it this way. If I isolate appearance from the sum total of the person, I am dehumanising someone insofar as I am stripping away who they are (no pun intended) for my own sexual gratification. Pornography encourages viewing other people for less than who they really are.

As someone who believes that humanity deserves far better than this, I think that sexuality should fall into the context of loving and meaningful relationships which are about far more than sex even if sex is a key component.

I think it is wrong that pornography bastardises this notion, and I think it is wrong that pornography focuses to the human person only in a superficial manner. We can do so so much better as people.

2. Does pornography promote an unnatural view of sexuality?

1ZRed wrote: »

Unnatural view of sexuality? Sorry would you rather we all participated in a bit of good auld fashioned catholic guilt?

Before I look into this. I'm going to point this out again. I'm not a Roman Catholic. Yes, I am a Christian, and I do believe in the Bible as God's inspired and infallible word and I believe that it has significant and real authority in my life. Now that I've pointed this out. There's something important to mention. If I am to look at this subject rationally one should consider the arguments on their merit alone rather than committing the genetic fallacy of dismissing the arguments purely on their origins. I don't deny that these arguments come from a Judeo-Christian position, nor do I deny that I submit to Jesus as Lord, but these arguments should be considered on their rational merit rather than being fobbed off because I'm a Christian.

Guilt has a purpose by the by. There is a reason why guilt exists, and it serves a function. Guilt generally exists as a part of a human conscience to rebuke us when we have done something which is evidently evil rather than what is good. Yes, it can be warped, and yes it can be abused, however to deny that guilt does not have a fruitful purpose in the individual is patently daft. This crazy notion that one should avoid anything to do with a healthy conscience is not true.

Now, before we start, I should point out that I don't advocate returning to a point of Victorian prudishness. I think that things genuinely were overly oppressive in the past. However, for every little bit that people can argue that things were oppressive in the past, things have gone too far in the other direction. Sexuality is shoved in peoples faces continually in the Western world today. Pornography is just one manifestation of this. Personally, I think that in the context of a marriage sexuality is a brilliant thing, but distorted and abstracted from that context it can be destructive particularly in respect to pornography.

Think of it this way. If we enjoyed food and we watched video upon video of a basted ham salivating, wouldn't you regard this as dysfunctional? Abstracted so far from the original concept of eating that it was completely bizarre and unnatural? I'd argue the same is true in terms of sex and pornography. Why not seek out a loving and a meaningful relationship and satisfy your sexual desires through that?

3. Can pornography create unrealistic expectations of sexuality?

1ZRed wrote: »

That is true that it can create unrealistic expectations for sex but it can also teach a lot and let's you figure things out and end up being fairly educational from that point of view. I know I learned a fuck of a lot from porn growing up, so your one size fits all idea that all porn promotes an unnatural idea of sexuality is very false and is an outdated theory.

Well, it's quite commonly accepted that pornography can desensitise people and that people can very readily have a distorted point of view of what typical sexual expression is actually like. I'd rather not have completely atypical experiences of sexuality impact my perspective or view on the subject.

4. Does watching pornography constitute adultery?

1ZRed wrote: »

Well I don't know about you but I don't regard having a sly pull in front of a computer screen as anywhere near having sex, let alone cheating.

And if you feel having sexual desires for someone other than your partner is on par with adultery, then what if a man or woman where to see an attractive person in the street and then for them to have a sexual fantasy about them, is that still cheating? Or does it strictly have to be porn?

First things first. Finding someone else attractive is not on par with adultery. Lusting after another woman than your wife / partner, and lusting after another man than your wife / partner is. It's not simply finding them sexually attractive, or even just having sexual desires. Masturbation is a sexual act, and you are doing this by lusting after another person than your wife or husband.

The only difference is that your member isn't actually physically in the act of penetrating someone / being penetrated by someone else. For all intents and purposes it is pretty much exactly the same.

Pornography has caused significant strain on many marriages, and to treat this in a fickle manner is absurd I think. I know that if this was a problem in a relationship I was involved in I'd be pretty upset about it.

1ZRed wrote: »

Too much of anything is a bad thing! Everything in moderation is key.

Plus I made the point that it's not the pornography which is at fault, it's the user who abuses it. Use it as it is meant as a way to unwind or entertain yourself but don't become reliant or dependent on it and you'll be fine. Again, pornography isn't the sole issue there, it's the user.

You're right too much of anything is a bad thing. On the same note being completely obsessed about sexuality is a bad thing in much the way that salivating over watching videos of roasted ham is a dysfunctional habit. Sexual expression is a great thing in the right amounts and in the right context. Abstracting that into something else is where the problem lies I feel.

5. Is pornography sexist?

1ZRed wrote: »

What if you don't view pornography with any women at all in it? What if women watch porn, does that produce a sexist attitude toward men?

Of course not, that is such an archaic argument against porn that it's all so sexist towards women. So you'd see no issues with me watching gay porn then seeing as though it isn't sexist towards women?

You're really just mirroring your own prejudices against porn here and claiming to be on the right and non-judgmental side of things. Your view of this is actually so unrealistic and flawed I don't know where to start.

Pornography without women in it is about as bad. It is still sexual objectification. The reality is that the vast majority of pornography is sought out by heterosexuals because heterosexuals form a clear majority of the population. I would say that dehumanising people for your own sexual gratification is still a destructive trend rather than a constructive one.

Here's something along the lines of what I meant. This is from an article in The Independent which deals with sexism in society:

Keen not to miss out on the action, Zoo Australia muscled in with a picture on its Facebook page showing a model split in two at the waist, with readers asked whether they preferred the top or bottom half. Reasons given by men in the comments for choosing the lower half included “cause two holes are better than one”, and “cause it doesn’t have the ability to have its own ****ing opinion”. Others specified the top half because “it can still make me a sandwich”, whilst one commenter suggested that if one hole wasn’t enough, you could just make another one.

[...]

And no, the Zoo Australia magazine ‘split her into pieces to dehumanize her even further as you objectify her’ and Virgin’s ‘wouldn’t it be completely hilarious if he incapacitated his wife so he could do whatever he wants with her’ gags aren’t ‘lighthearted’ or ‘harmless’ either. Think dehumanizing women in the public sphere, portraying them as sex objects and victims of men and simply vessels to be ****ed or abused or turned into a great big joke is completely harmless? Tell it to the office worker whose boss referred to her by asking a colleague “if big tits has come in yet”. Tell it to the woman who was asked by her boss in front of 30 colleagues “If I ‘wax my crack’”. Tell it to the girl of 10 who was walking home from school when “two older boys said ‘show us your tits’”. Tell it to the child of 13 who didn’t even understand when two men in a white van asked her if she had “a tight pussy”. Tell it to the woman who reported being groped by strangers “at least once a week and often much more, regardless of what I wear, where I am, how I behave.” Tell it to the woman who declined to talk to a group of men and was pursued down the street by them, shouting “rape!” Tell it to schoolgirl who was “beaten by her boyfriend” and whose “friends asked her if she was going to stay with him until after the prom so she’d have a date”.

I agree entirely. It isn't harmless. I think that all humanity should seek to regard others with dignity irrespective of how attractive people look.

1ZRed wrote: »

1. There is no sexual exploitation going on. Those actors are there of their own choosing and accord. Believe it or not, some people like the idea of being in the pornographic industry. There is nothing wrong with that or their choice.

2. "What if it was my daughter"? Well your daughter has a will of her own and is there of her own choosing. If you want the perception of porn to change you're going about it the wrong way and making it seem shameful and perverted, even though it is a commonly used by many people. So if the large majority of people to use porn, many seeing it as normal, natural to them and without issue, then why have these judgemental attitudes towards those who produce the very thing you enjoy and get pleasure from? It's hypocritical.

1. I disagree very strongly on this point. There is sexual exploitation of millions in the porn industry. People are trafficked for it. It is not enough to be simply assured that people consent to this. By being complicit with it, you are supporting an industry which at least in part exploits trafficked women. How do you know that the women or men that you are watching haven't been trafficked in the sex trade. It is a modern form of slavery, and I'm surprised that you're so blasé about the subject.

2. My point was that if I and many others wouldn't be pleased at the thought of our daughter being in the porn industry why on earth should we be praising someone else's daughter being involved, let alone getting our jollies off it?

Do you not appreciate that there are rather big ethical issues involved here, or perhaps you don't care?

1ZRed wrote: »

Yeah, you think that. You are also a very religious person, and openly so, hardly an unbiased view on the matter, eh?

Also, the irony of pornography enslaving! Because I've NEVER heard that said of religion! :pac:

Pornography is enslaving. Literally to many of the people involved in it through human trafficking, and to many of those who are involved in watching it through sex-addiction. The fact that you take such a blasé approach in respect to it is hugely disheartening if not tragic.

I don't know why you seem to want to bring up my Christian faith time and time again as if it is a negative in my life because it is nothing of the sort. My Christian faith liberates me from being conformed to things like this in the world. I'm greatly thankful that I am able to see the world differently as a result of God caring so much that He sent His only Son Jesus to rescue me from sin. He can do the same for anyone, including you.

I don't claim to be unbiased at all. I clearly am posting from a Christian perspective on this issue. I'm no less biased than you are.

orestes

Eramen wrote: »

Legitimate question: How many of you guys watch porn regularly? (as if I will receive honest answers)

Whenever I feel like it. How about you?

Eramen wrote: »

Porn Effects on Society and its views on sex, health and relationships:



Regular Porn use leaves Italian men with sexual dysfunction and health issues:

http://www.ansa.it/web/notizie/rubriche/english/2011/02/24/visualizza_new.html_1583160579.html

http://italianalmanac.org/life/libido.htm

German study finds increased porn use linked with memory impairments:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23167900

Hang on, Italian and German studies? What happened to all that stuff about Ireland and Irish culture, Irish men and fraternity and Irish-Irishness you were talking about earlier?

Eramen wrote: »

Porn addiction and human behavior
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/cupids-poisoned-arrow/201106/ominous-news-porn-users-internet-addiction-atrophies-brains

From that study, in the section titled Behavioural Addictions:

So far, here's the research scorecard. (Dates indicate when brain-scan research turned up evidence of the last of the three key addiction-related brain changes.)

Pathological gambling - studied for 10 years, and added to the upcoming DSM-5 as an addiction (2010)
Food addiction - (2010)
Internet video-gaming addiction - (2011)
Internet porn addiction - still not studied via brain scans

The emphisis on porn addiction not being studied isn't even added for the relevence of this debate, it's ephisised in the study itself to show there is no actual data on the subject, the whole thing is conjecture.

philologos

token101 wrote: »

Doesn't the Catholic Church prohibit women from entering as priests? Wouldn't you say that's viewing someone as "sexual objects rather than in their fullness as human beings"?

And Catholic priests? Celibacy is healthy and has never lead to any unhealthy abuse has it?

I'm an evangelical Christian, and the Bible doesn't prohibit clergy from marrying. Indeed, considering that in Titus and in 1 Timothy it is explicitly listed that a pastor should only have one wife, and that in 1 Corinthians it is mentioned that Peter had a wife it seems quite intuitive that clergy should be able to marry.

token101 wrote: »

That's just ****ing absurd really. Even if you're in a relationship you still find other people sexually attractive, that's human instinct. You haven't actually cheated, you've just thought about having sex with someone else. If I see someone I dislike and think about punching them in the face that isn't on a par with assault.

Finding people sexually attractive != Lusting after someone and masturbating at the thought of them. That's a sexual act. The only difference as I mentioned already is that the physical act isn't happening to another person, but it is happening at the thought of another person.

token101 wrote: »

Same as gambling, alcohol, chocolate, fast food or religion. Down to the individual isn't it really? The guys who go and blow up buildings in the name of Allah do far more damage than the guy who can't have sex with his wife because he's watched too much porn.

I think much religion is destructive. I don't know where people got the nutty idea that I'm defending all religion. No, I believe in Jesus, that's who I live for.

token101 wrote: »

Religion has caused far more problems and death in society than pornography ever has or ever will. Again, allegations of sexism from anyone in organised religion is a bit like the KKK railing against racism, hypocrisy beyond belief.

See above. I don't know where you got the nutty idea that I defend all religions. I think a lot are destructive actually, much as I think that quite a lot of atheist philosophy is destructive.

token101 wrote: »

And the church doesn't profit from the believers at all does it? The church preaches vows of poverty from ornate palaces. Noone in pornography is brainwashed into believing that what they are doing is a labour of love, unlike the believers who brainwashed into believing that giving the church money will offer them favour with the invisible man. At least porn is honest! And I haven't heard of any legit porn companies offering safe havens to paedophiles and enabling them, and that's something that you would hear about!

Actually, I see a breakdown of how my church uses its money. Mainly it is for furthering the Gospel in London and bringing people to know Him. My pastors don't line their pockets they are earning an average salary. If I thought for any moment that there was financial abuse going on I'd vote with my feet and leave. Essentially I know the breakdown of how every pound is spent there.

My church doesn't offer safe havens to paedophiles either. If it did, I'd be outta there.

token101 wrote: »

Pornography might not be a desirable career choice in society but isn't intrinsically evil like organised religion is. I feel very strongly about organised religion, feel free to pick me up on anything there.

Many people are forced into it. Moreover many people are enslaved to a human philosophy which has destroyed marriages and families, and has consumed peoples lives through addiction. I'm happier free from it.

philologos

thebigbiffo wrote: »

1: I love my wife, I have sex with her. At some point, she's going to be a sexual object for me, men view women as a route to getting their hole to some extent. Nothing to do with porn. Deal with it.

It's great that you have a good and full relationship with your wife. I don't object to this. I don't believe that you are dehumanising your wife because sex is merely a component of a fuller relationship. You're not solely looking to a woman to bring you sexual gratification. I presume that your wife brings much more joy to your life than that.

thebigbiffo wrote: »

2: Do I base my view of reality on Batman movies, Superman, The Nightmare on Elm street series. Did I run out after seeing Love Hate and start dealing drugs? Cop on. You watch fiction, you suspend disbelief.

No. However movies and other things do affect how we see the world, and they do often have a deeper philosophy or moral to be taken away from them. In much the same way it is naiive to think that watching a lot of videos of people having sex in a particular way won't affect sexual expression, or adversely what we expect from sexual expression.

thebigbiffo wrote: »

3: You do realize humans masturbate, married or not right? You do understand we've imaginations. To that regard, I've cheated on my wife with everyone from the office receptionist to Jessica Alba. Don't tell the wife, yeah? I dont think she'd like to think it wasn't just pornstars on was cheating on her with!

By the by, it's important to clarify, that I don't object to masturbation per sé. It is what motivates it if you will. I think that looking to another woman other than your wife for sexual gratification can be regarded as adultery.

thebigbiffo wrote: »

4: I know people addicted to drugs, alcohol, cigarettes, caffeine, jelly tots (I'm not joking), Chinese food, prescription drugs...the list is endless, and in varying degrees of severity. If you're addicted to keeping your garden perfect, do we need a support group? No, would be the answer there.

Addiction to anything is unhelpful. If something is consuming your life in such a way that it is adversely affecting the way you function then it is only right to seek help.

thebigbiffo wrote: »

5: Yeah, again connected to my second point (you do like a good repetitive moan dont ya?) - I thin you need to understand that men and women like sex, and our attitudes have been formed by this since time began. Build a bridge...

Repetitive or unrepetitive, this is worth discussing properly.

I don't think there is anything wrong with men or women liking sex. Heck, it is a great thing in the right context. It is when we abstract this concept out of this context and obsess over it like we've done in the West that it becomes destructive.

thebigbiffo wrote: »

Lastly: "They're not doing what I feel comfortable with so therefore it's bad. I cannot back up my opinion so I will just assume these people are being exploited". Common enough position.

That's not my position. People are literally enslaved to this through the human trafficking industry and by other means. Peoples marriages have literally been destroyed as a result of pornography, and people quite literally have huge issues in respect to this. To treat this in a hard and uncaring manner is really tragic to be honest with you.

thebigbiffo wrote: »

Can I ask you a question? When did you get the internet in your convent?

I work a secular job, I live in a normal house with normal housemates, I'm a normal person like anyone else, the only difference is that I just believe in Jesus Christ.

You can ask some of the people on the London forum who have met me over a drink before

Eramen

Deleted User wrote: »

...........

While I agree with the majority of your post I want to re-clarify some things about myself, which is the only thing I disagree with in your post

I was never a porn addict.. people have assumed it and then taken it as fact. Maybe that makes it easier for them to put my views in context for themselves and their world-view but it is the wrong context. (Someone who No Fap's OMG! )

I've stated I watched porn on occasion, I took up the the No Fap 90 days challenge as an experiment, in terms of a willpower exercise. I was also very curious of the claims of the whole movement. I can say for me at least it was definitely worth it and was relatively easy. I completed it on my first attempt and have essentially never looked back in regards to porn.

I found the majority of supposed outcomes of the lifestyle stood the test in my case. I still to this day am more productive, better concentration & stability, bolstered my can do attitude and prompted actions relating to taking the bull by he horns.

It was a fantastic thing to do, and I encourage any and all to attempt it and document their experience. In retrospect I certainly do have a disdain for porn, only at the end when it's all stopped do you understand it's value and purpose, which is wholly nil. Look at what people in the industry and ex pornstars are saying.

I concentrate my efforts on real people now, not fantasies - even if those fantasies were once only occasional. It is the case that my fantasies are now becoming real. I just find this outlook to be better for myself. Lastly it's because the changes were so positive, even dramatic to an extent, that I am so vocal about this topic.

www.reddit.com/r/NoFap

orestes

Eramen wrote: »

I've stated I watched porn on occasion, I took up the the No Fap 90 days challenge as an experiment, in terms of a willpower exercise. I was also very curious of the claims of the whole movement. I can say for me at least it was definitely worth it and was relatively easy. I completed it on my first attempt have essentially never looked back in regards to porn.

I found the majority of supposed outcomes stood the test in my case. I still to this day am more productive, better concentration & stability, bolstered my can do attitude and prompted actions relating to taking the bull by he horns.

It was a fantastic thing to do, and I encourage any and all to attempt it and document their experience. In retrospect I certainly do have a disdain for porn, only at the end when it's all stopped do you understand it's value and purpose, which is wholly negative. (As people inside the industry and ex pornstar can attest.)

I concentrate my efforts on real people now, not fantasies. I just find this to be better for myself.

You know, you could have saved everyone a whole lot of trouble if you had just said this (especially the bit in bold) at the start instead of all the other shoite. It works for you, fine, we're happy for you, as many have said in this thread already.

Just don't go telling everyone else it's the only way to live or they are morally corrupt degenerates who are against the laws of science and are going to burn in hell or lead to the downfall of human civilization or the return of the vengeful lizard overlords or something or you just end up getting told to gtfo.

Eramen

orestes wrote: »

You know, you could have saved everyone a whole lot of trouble if you had just said this (especially the bit in bold) at the start instead of all the other shoite. It works for you, fine, we're happy for you, as many have said in this thread already.

Just don't go telling everyone else it's the only way to live or they are morally corrupt degenerates who are against the laws of science and are going to burn in hell or lead to the downfall of human civilization or the return of the vengeful lizard overlords or something or you just end up getting told to gtfo.

Fair enough Irishman, but whether I came up with the best science could tell us, or illuminating philosophic ideas, it seems everyone had their minds set no matter what may have been said, except a noble few.

Porn has no effect on society, or on popular-culture, nor on the health of the addict... If you want to believe this, then believe it.

Madam_X

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

Tbf, that may not be a bad thing. As long as both parties are happy with it (and there isn't admittedly anything psychologically odd going on), it may be good to loosen people up about sexuality.

Not e.g. anal ****ing so hard that rectal damage is caused though.

Brain Stroking wrote: »

The core of your argument simply means parents need to get tech-savvy and block their kids from watching. Otherwise face the consequences. I am not going to miss out on watching Japanese girls have sex with African tribal elders just so mammy and daddy can watch Eastenders in peace with the kids on the computer in the next room.

Well fair point, but what about 18-year-olds? Despite the denial, that age group would do anything to be cool. I'm not saying ban hardcore porn (much as I despise the horrible stuff) but there's nothing wrong with talking about any concerns one might have.


Btw, I dont think it's a good idea to give up fapping at all at all! :pac:

orestes

Eramen wrote: »

Fair enough Irishman, but whether I came up with the best science could tell us, or inspirational philosophic ideas, it seems everyone had their minds set no matter what may have been said, except a noble few.

Dude, I have no problem with your point of view or how you live your life, and I'm always open to discussion. I'm actually celibate myself (although I do fap), but that's my choice. How others live their life is up to them. It's not your point of view that irked people, it's the way you put it across, as myself and others have said.

Eramen wrote: »

Porn has no effect on society, or on popular-culture, nor on the health on the addict... If you want to believe this, then believe it.

Porn has had an effect on society, I agree, but why does an effect necessarily have to be a bad thing? I believe sexual liberation and freedom of sexuality to be good things myself. Regarding it's effect on addicts, I'll say again that I think you are completely misunderstanding the nature of addiction.

Aside note, right now I'm watching the 2010 christmas special of Misfits on channel 4 and there's a scene where a teenage guy dressed as santa clause has sex with a pregnant girl.

1ZRed

Phililogos wrote:

Pornography is enslaving. Literally to many of the people involved in it through human trafficking, and to many of those who are involved in watching it through sex-addiction. The fact that you take such a blasé approach in respect to it is hugely disheartening if not tragic.

The fact that you resort to such fear mongering and exaggeration of that severity on the subject, to suit yourself, is hugely disheartening to me. Porn has very little baring on human trafficking, if you knew anything about it you'd know people who are trafficked are very much primarily sold for sex and prostitution, not porn movies. So when referring to such examples as though they are widespread and common place, without any evidence to say otherwise, would be akin to me branding the church a house packed full of child molesters, just to suit my argument and give it some perceived sense of power even though that statement wouldn't be fully true.

I notice you still remain beside that comment that porn is enslaving while ignoring that religion is the most widely recognised form of genuinely enslaving people in every sense of the word.

Phililogos wrote:

I don't know why you seem to want to bring up my Christian faith time and time again as if it is a negative in my life because it is nothing of the sort. My Christian faith liberates me from being conformed to things like this in the world. I'm greatly thankful that I am able to see the world differently as a result of God caring so much that He sent His only Son Jesus to rescue me from sin. He can do the same for anyone, including you.

I don't claim to be unbiased at all. I clearly am posting from a Christian perspective on this issue. I'm no less biased than you are.

No it doesn't, you'd like to think you're liberated and seeing the world in some special way but all you're doing is being told what is good and bad and to follow those views accordingly and unquestionably without thinking for yourself. Basically just conforming to whatever you are told, much to your disagreement that you don't actually conform. Again, it's a biased approach on the subject, therefore I don't take arguments with fanatically religious people very seriously because they seem deaf to logic when it contradicts their own beliefs.

I lack a religion and I don't believe in anything so I just tackled everything without being weighted down with that sort of pre-imposed rule set on me. My view is the least biased there could be because nobody influenced my views, I came up with them on my own because I have no religion telling me what is good and bad, in their view, so you're incredibly wrong to think I'm no less biased than you are.

I'm actually thankful I don't see the world through the eyes of someone of your faith anymore, it's oppressive. When I was younger, and religious, I was made to feel wrong and sinful -by myself, never mind others, because I didn't conform to what it was to be "right" in that faith. That was a very unhappy time for me and I think it is wrong I ever had to feel that way for something I couldn't help just because someone with a 2000 year old book told me so and influenced my society to think that way. I don't think you see how destructive and influential that book is and how it can do very bad things when exploited, which more than likely it always is.
Porn is what it is, there is no great malice or "evil" behind it, it is just sex targeted to those who want and seek it. simple as. There's no comparison.

If you're seeking some moral high ground on this subject, I'd suggest not relying on the bible for it. I've never seen so many accounts of hypocrisy and needless, meaningless suffering anywhere else.

So if porn is the worst thing to happen to our society, I'd say we'd be fairly lucky.

Madam_X

It should be said having concerns regarding hardcore porn and celebrating liberation of sexuality/throwing off the shackles of sexual repression are not mutually exclusive.

Brain Stroking

Madam_X wrote: »

It should be said having concerns regarding hardcore porn and celebrating liberation of sexuality/throwing off the shackles of sexual repression are not mutually exclusive.

True. I cannot look at a horse after some of the beastiality i've seen yet I'm all for shorter school skirts

GalwayGuy2

It should be said having concerns regarding hardcore porn and celebrating liberation of sexuality/throwing off the shackles of sexual repression are not mutually exclusive.

Not e.g. anal ****ing so hard that rectal damage is caused though.

Yeah, when I mentioned my random thought I was not talking about what you mentioned there. I mean, not even within a million miles.