HSE stoops to an new low.

Death and Taxes

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/cancer-patients-are-asked-to-pay-up-front-for-chemo-3327217.html

It is hard to believe that people are being asked to pay up front to recieve life saving chemotherapy!
These outpatients are being asked to pay up front for chemotherapy treatment at €75 a go.
"This is happening in Dublin and outside Dublin in other hospitals.

"They are being asked to pay immediately. This appears to be an HSE directive sent out to all hospitals. It's not just one or two hospitals."

How low can the Health Service Executive stoop?

snubbleste

What's the issue Completely misleading title.
This is normal.
If you are not covered by either medical card or health insurance, you have to pay some of the cost and the rest is subsidised by the State.

crusher000

issue will increase as more and more people can't afford private health insurance

Death and Taxes

snubbleste wrote: »

What's the issue Completely misleading title.
This is normal.
If you are not covered by either medical card or health insurance, you have to pay some of the cost and the rest is subsidised by the State.

The issue is demanding payment up front, it amounts to pay us now or die!
It was previously the case that you were billed AFTER the treatment, with so many people now in deep financial trouble it is unjustifiable that they are to be charged per treatment in advance!

Mr Benevolent

€75 for a chemotherapy session sounds like a bargain tbh.

crusher000

Confab wrote: »

€75 for a chemotherapy session sounds like a bargain tbh.

You complete a**e

Sergeant

WileyCoyote wrote: »

The issue is demanding payment up front, it amounts to pay us now or die!
It was previously the case that you were billed AFTER the treatment, with so many people now in deep financial trouble it is unjustifiable that they are to be charged per treatment in advance!

What is the huge difference between paying for it in advance, as opposed to be being billed for it afterwards? You still have to pay it.

snubbleste

WileyCoyote wrote: »

The issue is demanding payment up front, it amounts to pay us now or die!
It was previously the case that you were billed AFTER the treatment, with so many people now in deep financial trouble it is unjustifiable that they are to be charged per treatment in advance!

It is completely justifiable. The client is fully aware that this is the way the system operates.
The HSE is also in financil trouble, why should they be paying more to chase up debtors?

Frank Black

WileyCoyote wrote: »

The issue is demanding payment up front, it amounts to pay us now or die!
It was previously the case that you were billed AFTER the treatment, with so many people now in deep financial trouble it is unjustifiable that they are to be charged per treatment in advance!

Do you not think this is the reason they are doing it?

mountai

Sergeant wrote: »

What is the huge difference between paying for it in advance, as opposed to be being billed for it afterwards? You still have to pay it.

What is PRSI for then.

Rabies

Sergeant wrote: »

What is the huge difference between paying for it in advance, as opposed to be being billed for it afterwards? You still have to pay it.

Many people run away from bills. Was still common place before the recession. Now many people feel like they have a right to ignore bills, that is the worrying bit.

Mr Benevolent

crusher000 wrote: »

You complete a**e

I wasn't joking. Chemo drugs are very expensive. They could charge people the full whack if they want. Why should people get free treatment if they don't have a medical card or private health insurance?

Death and Taxes

Sergeant wrote: »

What is the huge difference between paying for it in advance, as opposed to be being billed for it afterwards? You still have to pay it.

The difference is that if you have a chemo appointment tomorrow and you don't have €75 you dont get the life saving treatment:mad:

Frank Black

mountai wrote: »

What is PRSI for then.

The difference between the actual cost of the treatment and the €75 the patient is charged presumably.

Sir Oxman

Confab wrote: »

I wasn't joking. Chemo drugs are very expensive. They could charge people the full whack if they want. Why should people get free treatment if they don't have a medical card or private health insurance?

Because they may likely die without it?

Death and Taxes

black francis wrote: »

Do you not think this is the reason they are doing it?

You think a pay now or die attitude is reasonable, fair, or even acceptable?

norrie rugger

Sergeant wrote: »

What is the huge difference between paying for it in advance, as opposed to be being billed for it afterwards? You still have to pay it.

Probably to do with while you are on Chemo you are out of work and have no income.
Once/if you recover, you will have an income stream again and can start to pay down.

crusher000

So those that can pay will be saved and those that have no money will be turned away to die ?

Health Service is the name, don't expect it for free but peoples health should take priority over all economic debt etc.

matrim

The HSE can't win with this one.

If they ask to pay upfront then it's a reaction similar to the OP, where people say "HSE are such money grabbing bastards, stopping people from getting threatment because they won't pay €75"

If they don't ask for upfront payment and a bill is sent out. People don't pay the bill and the HSE have to get in some form of debt collector, "HSE are money grabbing bastards, I'm in chemo and they are stressing me out sending me bills"

Frank Black

WileyCoyote wrote: »

You think a pay now or die attitude is reasonable, fair, or even acceptable?

Yes, that's exactly what I believe - :rolleyes:

miss_shadow

I work in a cancer hospice. I'd hate to tell you that some of the pain relief they offer is based on how old you are and your chance of survival because of the cost of the treatment.

miss_shadow

I work in a cancer hospice. I'd hate to tell you that some of the pain relief they offer is based on how old you are and your chance of survival because of the cost of the treatment.

bleg

miss_shadow wrote: »

I work in a cancer hospice. I'd hate to tell you that some of the pain relief they offer is based on how old you are and your chance of survival because of the cost of the treatment.

Basic pharmacoeconomics.

Death and Taxes

matrim wrote: »

The HSE can't win with this one.

If they ask to pay upfront then it's a reaction similar to the OP, where people say "HSE are such money grabbing bastards, stopping people from getting threatment because they won't pay €75"

If they don't ask for upfront payment and a bill is sent out. People don't pay the bill and the HSE have to get in some form of debt collector, "HSE are money grabbing bastards, I'm in chemo and they are stressing me out sending me bills"

Bills were previously issued after treatment, I don't ever remember complaints.
I mean this isn't for something minor it's for Chemo ffs!
it is certainly concerning the Irish Cancer Society
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/irish-cancer-society-worried-by-chemotherapy-prices-578104.html

ShiverinEskimo

Confab wrote: »

I wasn't joking. Chemo drugs are very expensive. They could charge people the full whack if they want. Why should people get free treatment if they don't have a medical card or private health insurance?

Such an ignorant, obnoxious attitude even by AH standards. Only the extremely rich could afford to pay cash for Chemo. My Dad's runs at about 110 grand for the full course. That's just for the Chemo - not the other 22 drugs per day he takes to combat the side-effects of the drugs to treat the side-effects of the drugs to treat the side-effects of the chemo.

Only the extreme minority of people receiving Chemo could afford to pay the full whack so in reality what your proposing is "The health service could just let these people die a slow, horrifyingly painful death if they want".

It's always the healthy, employed people with disposable income that harp on about health welfare. I hope your situation never deteriorates in the same manner as those currently reliant on Chemo.

Einhard

WileyCoyote wrote: »

You think a pay now or die attitude is reasonable, fair, or even acceptable?

I seriously doubt that people would be allowed to die because they couldn't afford the €75. Just another excuse for some to wallow in indignant outrage. By the looks of things, it's the default position of a fair proportion of people here. We're becoming a nation of Victor Meldrews.

bleg

Einhard wrote: »

I seriously doubt that people would be allowed to die because they couldn't afford the €75. Just another excuse for some to wallow in indignant outrage. By the looks of things, it's the default position of a fair proportion of people here. We're becoming a nation of Victor Meldrews.

I don't believe it.

super_furry

WileyCoyote wrote: »

The difference is that if you have a chemo appointment tomorrow and you don't have €75 you dont get the life saving treatment:mad:

Has anyone been turned away?

Death and Taxes

Einhard wrote: »

I seriously doubt that people would be allowed to die because they couldn't afford the €75. Just another excuse for some to wallow in indignant outrage. By the looks of things, it's the default position of a fair proportion of people here. We're becoming a nation of Victor Meldrews.

I don't believe it!

But seriously it is causing causing concern according to the Irish Cancer Society.

Sergeant

Einhard wrote: »

I seriously doubt that people would be allowed to die because they couldn't afford the €75. Just another excuse for some to wallow in indignant outrage. By the looks of things, it's the default position of a fair proportion of people here. We're becoming a nation of Victor Meldrews.

Joeduffyitus.

Mr Benevolent

ShiverinEskimo wrote: »

Only the extremely rich could afford to pay cash for Chemo. My Dad's runs at about 110 grand for the full course. That's just for the Chemo - not the other 22 drugs per day he takes to combat the side-effects of the drugs to treat the side-effects of the drugs to treat the side-effects of the chemo.

Only the extreme minority of people receiving Chemo could afford to pay the full whack so in reality what your proposing is "The health service could just let these people die a slow, horrifyingly painful death if they want".

What? Where did I ever say any of that? All I said was that people should not expect any sort of treatment to be free. You've completely blown my post out of proportion. If your dad has PHI, a medical card or can afford the heavily subsidised €75 per treatment then he doesn't need to worry about the €110k, and the Drugs Payment Scheme, his medical card or PHI will look after most of the drugs expenses.

The point - medical treatment will never be free, the €75 is a standard charge and was being charged well before the Indo started whining.

mitosis

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Bills were previously issued after treatment, I don't ever remember complaints.
I mean this isn't for something minor it's for Chemo ffs!
it is certainly concerning the Irish Cancer Society
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/irish-cancer-society-worried-by-chemotherapy-prices-578104.html

The trouble is, and I speak from experience, if you invoice after treatment there is less chance you'll get paid. I am impressed they only charge 75.00, the treatment must cost 10X that.

Clarehobo

WileyCoyote wrote: »

The difference is that if you have a chemo appointment tomorrow and you don't have €75 you dont get the life saving treatment:mad:

Have they actually turned people away because they don't have the €75?

To be honest, if people can afford it they should be billed up front. If people can't afford it, they should be issued a medical card or waiver to cover their treatment while they are ill.

HondaSami

WileyCoyote wrote: »

The issue is demanding payment up front, it amounts to pay us now or die!
It was previously the case that you were billed AFTER the treatment, with so many people now in deep financial trouble it is unjustifiable that they are to be charged per treatment in advance!

I think the problem is people are not paying after the treatment. Im sure it is stressful enough without having this financial burden as well but the treatment is not free.
What is the alternative, how would you propose they get people to pay?

Odysseus

WileyCoyote wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/cancer-patients-are-asked-to-pay-up-front-for-chemo-3327217.html

It is hard to believe that people are being asked to pay up front to recieve life saving chemotherapy!
These outpatients are being asked to pay up front for chemotherapy treatment at €75 a go.
"This is happening in Dublin and outside Dublin in other hospitals.

"They are being asked to pay immediately. This appears to be an HSE directive sent out to all hospitals. It's not just one or two hospitals."

How low can the Health Service Executive stoop?

It is the standard hospital charge, I agree that in such cases it should be scraped in the subject cannot pay. However, what I want to know is what happens if the person says I don't have it on me, send me the bill. I would imagine treatment is not denied?

Cancer treatment should come under LTI imo.

Death and Taxes

HondaSami wrote: »

I think the problem is people are not paying after the treatment. Im sure it is stressful enough without having this financial burden as well but the treatment is not free.
What is the alternative, how would you propose they get people to pay?[/QUOTE]
The same way they did until a month ago, when they suddenly changed how they bill.

Lyaiera

Clarehobo wrote: »

Have they actually turned people away because they don't have the €75?

To be honest, if people can afford it they should be billed up front. If people can't afford it, they should be issued a medical card or waiver to cover their treatment while they are ill.

Absolutely.

But in the process of and wait in determining if people can afford it up front they'd be left to die.

I went to A&E and was sent for surgery with 36 hours with a serious condition that had the possibility of escalating to serious permanent injury and possibly death. According to my files I was deemed to be able to afford it up front. I got the bill a few weeks later and wrote back showing them my income and the entire bill was waived. If I had to pay for it up front I could have died.

donegal_road

the first I heard of this new measure was this mornings news. Was there any word or warning of it in the last few months, I dont remember hearing a thing until today.

Bullseye1

Confab wrote: »

I wasn't joking. Chemo drugs are very expensive. They could charge people the full whack if they want. Why should people get free treatment if they don't have a medical card or private health insurance?

Why do you think they have neither?

steddyeddy

Confab wrote: »

€75 for a chemotherapy session sounds like a bargain tbh.

Reminds me of the american expression: people who say they dont worry about money dont worry about it because they always had it.

75 can be either a little or a lot depending on your finances. If people havent got it to pay up front it provides unacceptable stress to those with cancer. Stress and cancer are not good combinations. The HSE should issue a statement on this to put peoples minds at ease.

Valetta

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Why do you think they have neither?

Because they are deemed to have sufficient income to afford the heavily subsidised charges.

The €75 charge per visit is capped at a maximum of €750 per year- less than the average annual charge for insurance.

flutered

Confab wrote: »

I wasn't joking. Chemo drugs are very expensive. They could charge people the full whack if they want. Why should people get free treatment if they don't have a medical card or private health insurance?

am i under the mistaken impression that all cancer drugs/treatment are free to everyone, i do not have to pay the levy on the drugs that i collect from the chemist for my oncologist to administer.

spank_inferno

Seeing as most of the country is covered by Medical Card, much of the rest by private insurance, this won't impact a large amount of people.

My last visit to the hospital involved:
- An ambulance trip.
- 2 paramedics.
- An A&E bed for 1/2 a day.
- A small procedure under local anastetic.
- Some pain-killing drugs while I was there.

I was tended to pretty well.
A week later I got my bill, I think it was €75-ish.
I paid & I was gratefull I did not have to bear the full price despite not having insurance or medical card.


TL/DR version:
Just because its the "Big C" people shouldn't lose sight of the care & cost of care that we receive, whether its cancer or a broken finger.
Being asked to contribute a fraction of that cost is far from 'stooping to a new low'.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

steddyeddy

spank_inferno wrote: »

Seeing as most of the country is covered by Medical Card, much of the rest by private insurance, this won't impact a large amount of people.

My last visit to the hospital involved:
An ambulance trip.
2 paramedics.
An A&E bed for 1/2 a day.
A small procedure under local anastetic.
Some pain-killing drugs while I was there.

I was tended to pretty well.

A week later I got my bill, I think it was €75-ish.

I paid & I was gratefull I did not have to bear the full price despite not having insurance or medical card.


TL/DR version:
Just because its the "Big C" people shouldn't lose sight of the care & cost of care that we receive, whether its cancer or a broken finger.
Being asked to contribute a fraction of that cost is far from 'stooping to a new low'.

I agree I am grateful for the service and the affordable price. Affordable to me that is. A large number of irish families (40%) I think have less than a hundred left at the end of the month. Not all have the medical card and not all have insurance.

ShiverinEskimo

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Some people do need perspective alright - people like you.

All well and good saying 75 euro is one day's work in a job. It's a moot point for the majority of cancer patients who are physically incapable of working.

40% of job-seekers allowance is a MASSIVE chunk.

Perspective - you're a cancer patient in the sticks who can't work and has to drive 2 hours to St. Vincents or St. Luke's in Dublin paying petrol, tolls and parking in doing so which you can't claim back. Except you're high on morphine-based painkillers so you can't drive, so your spouse, sibling, child, friend, neighbour has to take a day off to drive you there and back.

That 40% of your jobseekers allowance suddenly becomes 50 or 60 percent. Then you have to drop 127 euro to the chemist for the prescription you got when you saw the oncologist. Oops. There we go - jobseekers allowance gone. I guess it's lucky your appetite is the first thing to go during Chemo because you won't be eating fúck all with the money you might have left.

Given the cost of these treatments runs into hundreds of thousands it's a total slap in the face to THE most vulnerable people in society to shake them down for 75 quid at the time when they are least likely to be able to afford it.

Charge the 75, but bill them and if/when they recover. Work a payment plan out when the patient can return to work or can spare more of their dole and have some chance of paying it off. Not unreasonable.

Cee-Jay-Cee

WileyCoyote wrote: »

The issue is demanding payment up front, it amounts to pay us now or die!
It was previously the case that you were billed AFTER the treatment, with so many people now in deep financial trouble it is unjustifiable that they are to be charged per treatment in advance!

And it generally wasn't paid so now they ask in advance. I don't see the problem, your being provided with a very expensive treatment and asked to pay a nominal amount in advance. If I had cancer the €75 fee would be the least of my worries.

ShiverinEskimo

CJC999 wrote: »

If I had cancer the €75 fee would be the least of my worries.

It would be your only worry if you didn't have €75.

Boombastic

Sure they've increments to pay, can be wasting money on those scummy sick people

€266m top-ups are paid out to HSE staff



Bloody sick people ruining the HSE for the rest of us

Valetta

ShiverinEskimo wrote: »

Some people do need perspective alright - people like you.

All well and good saying 75 euro is one day's work in a job. It's a moot point for the majority of cancer patients who are physically incapable of working.

40% of job-seekers allowance is a MASSIVE chunk.

Perspective - you're a cancer patient in the sticks who can't work and has to drive 2 hours to St. Vincents or St. Luke's in Dublin paying petrol, tolls and parking in doing so which you can't claim back. Except you're high on morphine-based painkillers so you can't drive, so your spouse, sibling, child, friend, neighbour has to take a day off to drive you there and back.

That 40% of your jobseekers allowance suddenly becomes 50 or 60 percent. Then you have to drop 127 euro to the chemist for the prescription you got when you saw the oncologist. Oops. There we go - jobseekers allowance gone. I guess it's lucky your appetite is the first thing to go during Chemo because you won't be eating fúck all with the money you might have left.

Given the cost of these treatments runs into hundreds of thousands it's a total slap in the face to THE most vulnerable people in society to shake them down for 75 quid at the time when they are least likely to be able to afford it.

Charge the 75, but bill them and if/when they recover. Work a payment plan out when the patient can return to work or can spare more of their dole and have some chance of paying it off. Not unreasonable.

Use your medical card.

steddyeddy

CJC999 wrote: »

And it generally wasn't paid so now they ask in advance. I don't see the problem, your being provided with a very expensive treatment and asked to pay a nominal amount in advance. If I had cancer the €75 fee would be the least of my worries.

Again if you have the 75 it's the least of your worries. If not it's a huge worry. A life threathening worry.