Neuter our Samoyed or not?

PatsyR

Our 3 year old male Samoyed has been breaking out constantly for the last 2 weeks. He has a very large area which we thought we'd completely fenced off but he's still managing it nd we can only assume its because of a bitch in heat somewhere. My mam wants to get him done to try stop this but I'm so worried about it. He has the best personality in the world nd full of energy nd it would break my heart if he changed nd wasn't the same scamp we all adore has anyone any experience of getting this done with a samoyed?

SillyMangoX

Dont worry his personality wont change, well it will in the sense that he wont be going after bitches. It really is kinder to have them done unless they are a show dog, they have these bits driving them mad that they will never get to use. Its the right thing to do really if he is hard to control around bitches.

andreac

Firstly, get your garden sorted and figure out how he is getting out. His safety comes before anything and he risks being run over, stolen, shot by a farmer etc. Thats your main priority here before neutering.

Secondly, unelss you actually plan on breeding him, i highly suggest you neuter him. It wont change his personality at all, thats an old wives tale. Its also a lot healthier in the long run to have him done.

jsabina

My Previous dog was a Samoyed.
We didn't neutered him for years and years.
He was suffering so much when there were bitches in heat crying all the time.
When he was maybe 7 or 8 years old we had to neuter him as he had physical problems...
He didn't change at all his personality, but I learnt that is better to neuter when they are young and fit instead of waiting problems..

hope it helps

Sigma Force

Deffo neuter him, the garden will have to have improved fencing regardless because now he knows how to get out he will still try to get out even if it's not after the wimmin. He'll just go out because he can and fancies a wander.

Neutering doesn't change dogs personalities one bit, at least not in my experience. I have 2 spayed girls and a neutered boy. Have neutered every cat and dog we've had over the years (and that's a lot) and never had any changes in their personality or energy.

Some people think their dogs change because they get them done when they are around the 6 month mark which is around the time a lot of dogs grow up a bit more and either calm down or go through a teenagery stage and try to push boundaries nothing to do with hormones.

Maybe there are exeptions to the rule but I've never experienced a change with dogs or cats.

Would be the responsible thing to do in the long run, you don't want him helping to father unwanted litters by accident.

lorebringer

Neutering does not change a dogs personality - it's an old wives tale. We have neutered dogs of all ages over the years and have never had an issue with the dogs personality changing. Boys tend to recover very quickly, they'll feel sorry for themselves for a few days and then they get over it. The only thing it will do will take the hormone drive away resulting in a more relaxed and calmer dog.

Your dog escaping from the garden may be a behaviour issue but you really need to sort out the security of the garden to prevent him escaping. I always recommend getting dogs neutered if they are pets, and are not going to be (ethically!) bred from. It really makes a difference when you have them near bitches in heat or intact males. Plus, it tends to curb bad habits like humping!

slookie

I've a 20 month old Samoyed bitch and am in the same situation. She has been in heat twice already and is due in heat again early in the New Year. It is such a nightmare when in heat and I end up feeling so sorry for her locked up for 2 or 3 weeks. So I'm definitely going to get her neutered, but I want her to have one litter of pups first. How soon after could I get her neutered?

SillyMangoX

slookie wrote: »

I've a 20 month old Samoyed bitch and am in the same situation. She has been in heat twice already and is due in heat again early in the New Year. It is such a nightmare when in heat and I end up feeling so sorry for her locked up for 2 or 3 weeks. So I'm definitely going to get her neutered, but I want her to have one litter of pups first. How soon after could I get her neutered?

If I was in your situation I would not let her have a litter at all. There's no need for it, she won't miss what she never had. You can get her done about a month after her heat, give things a chance to settle down.

andreac

Slookie, why do you want her to have a litter?

bluecherry74

Neutering definitely won't change his personality. My guy was done a few weeks ago, He's just over a year old and he's still as active and cheeky as ever. The only side effects are less humping and less marking, which I was hoping for.

You will still need to secure your garden in some way though. Once they've figured out how to get out and discovered what great fun it is, they'll just keep trying. My other dog, a neutered female, recently discovered a small gap in the fence and now that she has a taste for freedom there's no stopping her. The two of them are now in a secure dog run whenever I'm out and it's great peace of mind.

slookie

I want company for her. If she has 5 pups, I will keep 2, and give 2 to family who also have Samoyeds already. Won't be selling them.

Toulouse

slookie wrote: »

I want company for her. If she has 5 pups, I will keep 2, and give 2 to family who also have Samoyeds already. Won't be selling them.

And what happens when she has 8 or more?

It's not a good enough reason to breed her imo.

andreac

Has she had all her health checks done, ie Hip scoring and whatever other tests are required for Samoyeds? This is not just a vet check, its specific health tests that have to be carried out.

You shouldnt even consider doing this until you get the results back and they are good enough. Also, do you know how much work is involved in breeding and raising a litter? Have you got the funds if something goes wrong??

Also, please ensure whatever dog you use, if you do breed, has all the relevent health tests and paperwork in order.

Did you ever show her? Do you know shes good enough to breed from in the first place?

tk123

andreac wrote: »

Have you got the funds if something goes wrong??

This - too many people don't even think that something may go wrong. I know somebody who bred a litter (they show them so have all the checks etc)...one of the pups got stuck so emergency trip to the vets in the middle of the night. There's been posters here who lost their dog and some have lost both the dog and pups went something went wrong. Don't think I'd be able to risk it if it was my dog...besides if all went well I end up with 10 or 15 pups that I wouldn't be able to part with lol!! :P

Ziegfeldgirl27

slookie wrote: »

I want company for her. If she has 5 pups, I will keep 2, and give 2 to family who also have Samoyeds already. Won't be selling them.

I wish I could thumbs down this post. I have never read anything so ridiculous in my life.

mistress_gi

I see no one mentioned the health advantages if getting our canine friends neutered. Severely reduces the possibility of brest cancer in bicthes and completely eliminates the risk of males getting testicular cancer and in bitches uterus cancer. I know there are more but these are just iff the top of my head.
Also, imagine waht it would be like to have all those hormones racing inyour blood and not being able to do anything about it!!!
I am a big advocate of neutering!

Tranceypoo

slookie wrote: »

I want company for her. If she has 5 pups, I will keep 2, and give 2 to family who also have Samoyeds already. Won't be selling them.

A few years ago now a stray wandered into my in laws, she was pregnant. I have never been through so much stress and expense in my life, are you prepared for the stress and extra work of looking after your dog through her pregnancy, all the things that could go wrong during the birth and the expense of it all? I'm talking extra vet bills for the mother, any emergency vet bills if anything goes wrong during the birth, the expense of 5 or more puppies, that's food when you start weaning them, all their shots at about 30/35 a go, worming, vet checks etc and that's if they're all healthy puppies, not to mention cleaning up the poop and pee of 5 or more puppies, changing their bedding, cleaning their food bowls, having a quiet area. Honestly the list is endless, it's one of the most stressful things I have ever done in my life and I would never ever go through it again by choice. Get her spayed and save yourself the drama, hassle and bank balance.

slookie

This could possibly be the most anti-breeding site on the internet.... Won't be breeding for a while anyway as she came into heat yesterday....like 6 weeks earlier than I was expecting.

Bullseye1

slookie wrote: »

This could possibly be the most anti-breeding site on the internet.... Won't be breeding for a while anyway as she came into heat yesterday....like 6 weeks earlier than I was expecting.

You have gotten some good advice with regards the implications for breeding your dog.

I do agree with you however on the anti-breeding brigade.

Wibbs

andreac wrote: »

Its also a lot healthier in the long run to have him done.

I realise this is the mantra around these parts and often repeated, but this is not the statement of fact some like to think. In bitches it is a preventative measure for many conditions and illnesses and is certainly better to get it done than not, but in males it is not nearly so clear cut. Particularly in large breeds. Rates for bone cancer go up for example. In Rotties it increases the risk by four times. Prostate cancers also quadruple. This I find interesting as most of the neutering advice out there claims it prevents it(it's a very low incidence disease anyway). Incidence of cardiac tumours(quite a common illness) go up by five times.

One advantage in this case is the dog is 3 years old. The younger the dog when neutered the higher the risks involved. The increased risks of ligament issues is far less for a start. I can dig up links to research on all this BTW, though the Blanket Neuter Meme will likely persist.

As for it preventing him straying? It might, but I'll try and dig up some research I read where it didn't have the effect expected in many dogs. In any case a well secured area and help from a good behaviourist would be the better route IMH. Nuetering as an "easy" way to modify behavior is a bit Lazy IMHO. Samoyed's are of the husky family are they not? They're buggers for roaming IIRC.

TL;DR PatsyR I'd do my own research, read up and try to avoid the extremes on both sides when making your decision and don't assume that just because "it's the done thing"* that this means it's a given for it to be the right thing in your individual case.

Just thought an alternative viewpoint couldn't go amiss.




* I'd add that just because a vet recommends it, doesn't always mean it's cast iron either. After all they also recommend yearly vaccinations for viral diseases when research has shown that dogs retain immunity for far longer, even for life. Your average dog that lives to say 12 years gets 4 or 5 vaccines per year of life, yet a human can get to 80 with only 4 or 5 in their entire life. They also can recommend dog food that's glorified weetabix for a near exclusive carnivore and many hawk the stuff in their surgery(and I'm no raw food faddist) .

fatmammycat

Wibbs wrote: »

I realise this is the mantra around these parts and often repeated, but this is not the statement of fact some like to think. In bitches it is a preventative measure for many conditions and illnesses and is certainly better to get it done than not, but in males it is not nearly so clear cut. Particularly in large breeds. Rates for bone cancer go up for example. In Rotties it increases the risk by four times. Prostate cancers also quadruple. This I find interesting as most of the neutering advice out there claims it prevents it(it's a very low incidence disease anyway). Incidence of cardiac tumours(quite a common illness) go up by five times.

One advantage in this case is the dog is 3 years old. The younger the dog when neutered the higher the risks involved. The increased risks of ligament issues is far less for a start. I can dig up links to research on all this BTW, though the Blanket Neuter Meme will likely persist.

As for it preventing him straying? It might, but I'll try and dig up some research I read where it didn't have the effect expected in many dogs. In any case a well secured area and help from a good behaviourist would be the better route IMH. Nuetering as an "easy" way to modify behavior is a bit Lazy IMHO. Samoyed's are of the husky family are they not? They're buggers for roaming IIRC.

TL;DR PatsyR I'd do my own research, read up and try to avoid the extremes on both sides when making your decision and don't assume that just because "it's the done thing"* that this means it's a given for it to be the right thing in your individual case.

Just thought an alternative viewpoint couldn't go amiss.




* I'd add that just because a vet recommends it, doesn't always mean it's cast iron either. After all they also recommend yearly vaccinations for viral diseases when research has shown that dogs retain immunity for far longer, even for life. Your average dog that lives to say 12 years gets 4 or 5 vaccines per year of life, yet a human can get to 80 with only 4 or 5 in their entire life. They also can recommend dog food that's glorified weetabix for a near exclusive carnivore and many hawk the stuff in their surgery(and I'm no raw food faddist) .

I'm glad you said this Wibbs, because I agree with most of it. I used to be part of the 'neuter your male' group until I did a lot of research before getting my own dog and had a rethink ( point, my last dog was neutered). There is increasing evidence that large breed male dogs- like mine– suffer from being neutered too early, and grow rangy and leggy as a result. As you say there is evidence that cancers develop in the neutered dog- although I also wonder if the general feeding methods of our pets has anything to do with this.
Neutering can prevent testicular cancer, sure, but testicular cancer is easily treated and the cure for testicular cancer IS to neuter your dog.
I'm not saying people should not neuter their dog either, not everyone has the time or the energy to deal with an intact dog, but it not the panacea for behavioural issues people think it is. Certainly my own dog will remain intact unless I have a very good reason for subjecting him to any surgery and I do not feel in any way I am doing him a disservice, quite the opposite.

Magenta

slookie wrote: »

I want company for her. If she has 5 pups, I will keep 2, and give 2 to family who also have Samoyeds already. Won't be selling them.

What about the remaining pup, you only have 4 accounted for there!
Also, in my experience of rehoming rescued litters, offers for homes can and do fall through very quickly. People are impatient, there will always be someone else who has a puppy or kitten ready to go a week earlier than you do. Or when push comes to shove they realise they don't actually want one. The classified sites websites are full of last-of-litter puppies who were left behind because the person who was to buy them never showed up/ "left due to time waster''.

Tranceypoo

slookie wrote: »

This could possibly be the most anti-breeding site on the internet.... Won't be breeding for a while anyway as she came into heat yesterday....like 6 weeks earlier than I was expecting.

Well I'm glad you've taken all the advice and experience you got here on board and done all your research.....

Knine

Another aspect to neuter/spay argument is the coat.

It can change the coat type of coated breeds. Something you may not notice if you have a short haired dog but a collie or retriever or the wired coated terriers can develop coats that are wooly or coarse and hard to manage.

Its not a reason not to spay or neuter but it is something to be aware of.

Wibbs

fatmammycat wrote: »

There is increasing evidence that large breed male dogs- like mine– suffer from being neutered too early, and grow rangy and leggy as a result.

There does seem to be an awful lot of ligament and bone issues in dogs these days. Makes sense certainly in males neutered before they've stopped growing. Testosterone is large part of the signals that are sent to "instruct" the bone to stop. Never mind signals to grow muscle as opposed to fat.

As you say there is evidence that cancers develop in the neutered dog- although I also wonder if the general feeding methods of our pets has anything to do with this.

Maybe though presumably the stats allowed for feeding.

Neutering can prevent testicular cancer, sure, but testicular cancer is easily treated and the cure for testicular cancer IS to neuter your dog.

+1 90% cure rate.

I'm not saying people should not neuter their dog either, not everyone has the time or the energy to deal with an intact dog, but it not the panacea for behavioural issues people think it is.

This. As for behavioural issues, as wikipedia puts it(referencing current research);

"Various studies of the effects neutering has overall on male and female dog aggression have been unable to arrive at a consensus. A possible reason for this according to one study is changes to other factors have more of an effect than neutering.[27] One study reported results of aggression towards familiar and strange people and other dogs reduced between 10 and 60 percent of cases,[28] while other studies reported increases in possessive aggression[29] and aggression towards familiar and strange people,[30] and yet another study reported no effect on territorial aggression, and only a reduction in dominance aggression that existed for at least 5 years.[31] For females with existing aggression, many studies reported increases in aggressive behavior[32][33][34][35] and some found increased separation anxiety behavior.[30][36] A report from the American Kennel Club Canine Health Foundation reported significantly more behavioral problems in castrated dogs. The most commonly observed behavioral problem in spayed females was fearful behavior and the most common problem in males was aggression.[37] Early age gonadectomy is associated with an increased incidence of noise phobias and undesirable sexual behaviors.[38]".

It seems well up in the air as far as being a treatment for behavioral issues and may actually increase others. Of course you don't read any of that from the pro neuter groups and their literature. How many have said that it's an old wives tale that it changes their personalities and that their dogs didnt change? What changes that did occur could just as easily be put down to natural maturity. I've always had "intact" male dogs(all working type breeds too) and have never had these major problems some seem to have and I'm no dog whisperer or anything close to it. Some went through a twitchy adolescence but that passed with maturity as these things tend to. I've known intact dogs all my life and our grandparents and all those before them would have rarely had snipped dogs and what happened? Not a lot it seems. The idea that they're slaves to massive hormone surges strikes me as a tad OTT and an example of projection in the majority of cases anyway.

Overpopulation as a reason? Seems on the money on the surface, but we've never nuetered so many of our dogs as we do today, yet the problem is worse than ever. Plus if sterilisation is what's required, why not more suggestions of far less invasive procedures like vasectomies and tubal ligation? That would sterilise the dog and leave it's hormones intact(though if I had a bitch I would likely neuter her as it does keep some common and serious issues at bay).

Like I said this meme is very strong and even moral pressure is brought to bear on the subject. Never sits well with me anyway.

ShaShaBear

My aunt kept boxers, and decided she wanted her bitch to have one litter before she got her two neutered. Ten pups, two survived, and when the people who had booked them found out the other eight had died over the space of a few weeks with no idea why, they refused to pay for the pups, and my aunt had no choice but to give them away.
She assumed that there would be no complication, she had no money aside for vet treatment and it turned out that neither of her boxers were close to being suitable to breed from, and both IKC registered (just goes to show you!). She had to have the bitch put to sleep shortly after, due to a large brain tumor.

I'd actually condone you buying a Samoyed pup for company for her before you bring in anywhere between 5 and 9 unwanted puppies (and you have not even clarified that you will be breeding her with another Samoyed!) and you certainly cannot rely on your family wanting to take a pup each. Imagine, getting left with 9 new dogs, when you're struggling to control your own during heat. How will you rehome them all? Or will you keep them and decide they should all have one litter each and let them breed among themselves?

This site is not anti-breeding by any means, it's anti-irresponsible-breeding. :rolleyes:

doubter

Please please please don't breed her...this year alone, I am aware of 6 samoyeds that were killed in irish pounds, and 4 that were transferred to rescue. Please - those killed, in theory, could be from one litter...yours? please don't.

doubter

Wibbs wrote: »

There does seem to be an awful lot of ligament and bone issues in dogs these days. Makes sense certainly in males neutered before they've stopped growing. Testosterone is large part of the signals that are sent to "instruct" the bone to stop. Never mind signals to grow muscle as opposed to fat. Maybe though presumably the stats allowed for feeding.
+1 90% cure rate.
This. As for behavioural issues, as wikipedia puts it(referencing current research);

"Various studies of the effects neutering has overall on male and female dog aggression have been unable to arrive at a consensus. A possible reason for this according to one study is changes to other factors have more of an effect than neutering.[27] One study reported results of aggression towards familiar and strange people and other dogs reduced between 10 and 60 percent of cases,[28] while other studies reported increases in possessive aggression[29] and aggression towards familiar and strange people,[30] and yet another study reported no effect on territorial aggression, and only a reduction in dominance aggression that existed for at least 5 years.[31] For females with existing aggression, many studies reported increases in aggressive behavior[32][33][34][35] and some found increased separation anxiety behavior.[30][36] A report from the American Kennel Club Canine Health Foundation reported significantly more behavioral problems in castrated dogs. The most commonly observed behavioral problem in spayed females was fearful behavior and the most common problem in males was aggression.[37] Early age gonadectomy is associated with an increased incidence of noise phobias and undesirable sexual behaviors.[38]".

It seems well up in the air as far as being a treatment for behavioral issues and may actually increase others. Of course you don't read any of that from the pro neuter groups and their literature. How many have said that it's an old wives tale that it changes their personalities and that their dogs didnt change? What changes that did occur could just as easily be put down to natural maturity. I've always had "intact" male dogs(all working type breeds too) and have never had these major problems some seem to have and I'm no dog whisperer or anything close to it. Some went through a twitchy adolescence but that passed with maturity as these things tend to. I've known intact dogs all my life and our grandparents and all those before them would have rarely had snipped dogs and what happened? Not a lot it seems. The idea that they're slaves to massive hormone surges strikes me as a tad OTT and an example of projection in the majority of cases anyway.

Overpopulation as a reason? Seems on the money on the surface, but we've never nuetered so many of our dogs as we do today, yet the problem is worse than ever. Plus if sterilisation is what's required, why not more suggestions of far less invasive procedures like vasectomies and tubal ligation? That would sterilise the dog and leave it's hormones intact(though if I had a bitch I would likely neuter her as it does keep some common and serious issues at bay).

Like I said this meme is very strong and even moral pressure is brought to bear on the subject. Never sits well with me anyway.

The only reason I am pro neutering is that there are too many unresponsible breeders- and owners - in this country. Male dogs tend to stray after a bitch in heat, and before you know it theres pups..Currently I know of 4 litters in our irish pounds..dogs that will DIE tomorrow if no rescue steps in - and all recsues are full.Latest a husky mother with 3 1 day old pups dumped in someones back yard in Tullamore...and very often, due to the fact that pups are too young to be vaacinated they will contract Parvo in the pound..and die a horrible death.Please neuter your animals..dog,cat,rabbit...doesn't matter.

Bullseye1

I appreciate that there are irresponsible breeders in this country but there are also responsible breeders. I'm not saying that the OPs reasons are possibly breeding their dog is legitimate. It is probably more appropriate to source a companion dog through other means be it from a responsible breeder or from a pound or rescue.

Personally I would recommend anyone considering breeding dogs for he love of he breed to contact the relevant dog club for advice. Your dog may not be suitable for breeding healthy dogs. Have the necessary health checks as advised by the dog club.

This is not the best place for sourcing information on breeding. There are far too many people with their own agenda, good and well meaning but if thy had their way there would be little or no breeding.

slookie

slookie wrote: »

I want company for her. If she has 5 pups, I will keep 2, and give 2 to family who also have Samoyeds already. Won't be selling them.

Why not just buy another dog - not necessarily a Samoyed?

Synyster Shadow

slookie- I've heard that one litter can help prevent cancer of the womb (told by vets) and I know with my Granny's German Shep that she is always looking to mother pups that are brought over there when family is visiting with there newest family member, she pines for days after they leave again so getting her neutered before having a litter of pups wont make her forget what she's missing out on its part of them. I think keeping one pup out of the litter for her own company and yours is nice and we were thinking of doing the same last year when a friend of ours had our Doberman bread with there bitch and just at the last minute we decided not to (the thought was nice though as he's getting the snip early next year and he's unique colour wise-blue)

You should take the advice you need and make your own mind up in the end. Best of luck either way