kitchen wiring

larrya

Just wondering what is the norm for number of socket circuits in a kitchen.I know each appliance must have its own isolation switch but should each have its own circuit.For example could dryer and washing machine be on the same circuit or should they be seperate.Or could I put dryer with other sockets for toaster and kettle and washing machine with other counter top sockets.Any advice appreciated.

meercat

larrya wrote: »

Just wondering what is the norm for number of socket circuits in a kitchen.I know each appliance must have its own isolation switch but should each have its own circuit.For example could dryer and washing machine be on the same circuit or should they be seperate.Or could I put dryer with other sockets for toaster and kettle and washing machine with other counter top sockets.Any advice appreciated.

my advise would be at least 5 circuits
i would put separate circuits for
1 tumble dryer
2 wash machine
3 dishwasher
4 fridge/freezer
5 general kitchen sockets above counter

overkill?????
possibly ,but everything is covered and if possible i try to fit rcbo's to each circuit
fit a 3 row board and 2 pole busbar to top row with a rcbo for immersion and a 10amp rcbo for bathroom lights lights

larrya

meercat wrote: »

my advise would be at least 5 circuits
i would put separate circuits for
1 tumble dryer
2 wash machine
3 dishwasher
4 fridge/freezer
5 general kitchen sockets above counter

overkill?????
possibly ,but everything is covered and if possible i try to fit rcbo's to each circuit
fit a 3 row board and 2 pole busbar to top row with a rcbo for immersion and a 10amp rcbo for bathroom lights lights

Cheers meercat,I was thinking along those lines but nice to get another opinion on it.

hedzball

meercat wrote: »

my advise would be at least 5 circuits
i would put separate circuits for
1 tumble dryer
2 wash machine
3 dishwasher
4 fridge/freezer
5 general kitchen sockets above counter

overkill?????
possibly ,but everything is covered and if possible i try to fit rcbo's to each circuit
fit a 3 row board and 2 pole busbar to top row with a rcbo for immersion and a 10amp rcbo for bathroom lights lights

And if you priced that for a installation you WOULD NOT GET THE JOB ..

IIRC (as they do change) the reg was undercounter appliances must have an isolation.. DP switch counter level.. washer/dryer grand..

Each kitchen is different so I try stick to a wall by wall rule no more then 3 in a circuit.

EG. Kitchen left Kitchen right and Undercounter.. all under the rcd. Cheaper and just as apt protection wise..

Fair enough fault finding is faster with single rcbos but wont be too hard to find out which of two appliances is dodgy :D

M cebee

i would be thinking 5 radial circuits or thereabouts

you could fit 2 rcds for kitchen and house sockets to keep cost down

meercat

hedzball wrote: »

And if you priced that for a installation you WOULD NOT GET THE JOB ..

the extra cost should be minimal
hopefully the price wouldnt be that tight and not get the job for the sake of it
however the pluses well outlay the minus

meercat

M cebee wrote: »

you could fit 2 rcds for kitchen and house sockets to keep cost down

thats an option alright

hedzball

meercat wrote: »

the extra cost should be minimal
hopefully the price wouldnt be that tight and not get the job for the sake of it
however the pluses well outlay the minus

aye but you know yourself.. dog eat dog..

meercat

hedzball wrote: »

aye but you know yourself.. dog eat dog..

woooooffff:D

2011

meercat wrote: »

my advise would be at least 5 circuits

i would put separate circuits for
1 tumble dryer
2 wash machine
3 dishwasher
4 fridge/freezer
5 general kitchen sockets above counter

Why ?? I have all of these appliances and the entire downstairs of my house (including my kitchen) is on just one circuit. So far this has never been a problem.
Needless to say I did not wire my home, and I would prefer it it had more, but 5 circuits just for the kitchen, why??
Personally I think that dedicated 2 socket circuits is plenty for almost any kitchen.

overkill?????

In my opinion, yes. There are much better ways to spend your money.

possibly ,but everything is covered and if possible i try to fit rcbo's to each circuit

In the last 20 years I can honestly say that I can not recall an RCD accidentally tripping in any house that I have lived in. Even if my RCD did trip the consequences would not be serious enough to justify one per socket circuit. At a push I can see why someone may need one on a freezer.

In industrial, commercial or office type installations it would be normal to install RCBOs for every socket circuit, not domestic installations. The price of copper is doing enough damage to the trade as it is.

M cebee

2011 wrote: »

Why ?? I have all of these appliances and the entire downstairs of my house (including my kitchen) is on just one circuit. So far this has never been a problem.
Needless to say I did not wire my home, and I would prefer it it had more, but 5 circuits just for the kitchen, why??
Personally I think that dedicated 2 socket circuits is plenty for almost any kitchen.


In my opinion, yes. There are much better ways to spend your money.


In the last 20 years I can honestly say that I can not recall an RCD accidentally tripping in any house that I have lived in. Even if my RCD did trip the consequences would not be serious enough to justify one per socket circuit. At a push I can see why someone may need one on a freezer.

In industrial, commercial or office type installations it would be normal to install RCBOs for every socket circuit, not domestic installations. The price of copper is doing enough damage to the trade as it is.

4-5 radial ccts is about right here imo-
washer and dryer are usually utility appliances ime

DB is normally close by so little extra work involved

1 rcd can be troublesome if you get random nuisance trips which are difficult to trace-i have seen this quite a few times

2011

M cebee wrote: »

4-5 radial ccts is about right here imo-
washer and dryer are usually utility appliances ime

What is the benefit of having this many extra socket circuits?
I agree with future proofing, but only to a point.

I have all of the appliances and more. Even with all of them on at one time I am not in any danger of tripping the single downstairs circuit (Celtic tiger wiring )

1 rcd can be troublesome if you get random nuisance trips which are difficult to trace-i have seen this quite a few times

Yes I have seen this, but it is not typical. An RCBO per circuit is OTT in my opinion.
At most: Perhaps one RCD for the kitchen (covering 2 or more circuits), one RCBO for the "office" and one RCD for all of the socket circuits for the rest of the house.

M cebee

2011 wrote: »

What is the benefit of having this many extra socket circuits?
I agree with future proofing, but only to a point.

I have all of the appliances and more. Even with all of them on at one time I am not in any danger of tripping the single downstairs circuit (Celtic tiger wiring )


Yes I have seen this, but it is not typical. An RCBO per circuit is OTT in my opinion.
At most: Perhaps one RCD for the kitchen (covering 2 or more circuits), one RCBO for the "office" and one RCD for all of the socket circuits for the rest of the house.

all rcbos is prob overkill

but i would allow 3 radials for any kitchen,4-5 here as washer and dryer are also included

there is little extra work involved as board is normally in utility

2011

M cebee wrote: »

all rcbos is prob overkill

but i would allow 3 radials for any kitchen,4-5 here as washer and dryer are also included

there is little extra work involved as board is normally in utility

Remember a good electrical design will have the following qualities:
1) Robust
2) Capacity for future expansion
3) Be cost effective
4) Have the correct balance of the above

cast_iron

I'd agree with 4, only if the washing machine and dryer are a close run to the board. A circuit each is not necessary but with the dryer up to 3000w and I'm not sure about wm wattage, but it could be no more than 1600w based on that dryer figure.
Unless there's a load of sockets in the kitchen, 2 circuits is loads. Can't see why you would want more.
You couldn't be pricing for RCBO per circuit or any of that jazz. Not alone the extra materials, time is money too.

meercat

While I agree rcbos are over the top
I would still recommend 5 circuits
All freezers have to be on their own circuit,and with some fridge freezers being so big it's just as convenient to put in dedicated circuit at this stage
I wouldn't put dryer and washer on same circuit as there is a possibility of overload if both appliances are on together
Again a separate circuit for dishwasher
Then another circuit for counter sockets
As others have said there shouldn't be much extra cabling if board is close

2011

meercat wrote: »

While I agree rcbos are over the top
I would still recommend 5 circuits
All freezers have to be on their own circuit,and with some fridge freezers being so big it's just as convenient to put in dedicated circuit at this stage
I wouldn't put dryer and washer on same circuit as there is a possibility of overload if both appliances are on together
Again a separate circuit for dishwasher
Then another circuit for counter sockets
As others have said there shouldn't be much extra cabling if board is close

I think that if 5 circuits are required in a kitchen then a standard single phase supply to the house is too small.
The numbers simply don't add up.

M cebee

page 307
radial final circuits for socket outlets and appliances in domestic and similar installations

a radial circuit may supply an arrangement of socket-outlets and 'small' permanently connected appliances .

preferably socket-outlets and appliances should be on 'separate' circuits.

if you have a dedicated circuit for fridge/freezer that's 1 gone right away

2011

The point in my last post still stands.

cast_iron

meercat wrote: »

All freezers have to be on their own circuit,and with some fridge freezers being so big it's just as convenient to put in dedicated circuit at this stage

I can't remember ever seeing a standalone freezer in a kitchen. So that rule wouldn't apply. I really don't see the convenience in dedicating a circuit to a fridge freezer.

I wouldn't put dryer and washer on same circuit as there is a possibility of overload if both appliances are on together

I tend to agree on that one, though it's a 50/50. If it was a difficult run, I'd probably not bother.

Again a separate circuit for dishwasher

Overkill, IMO. Why a couple of counter sockets can't go on with this, I don't know.

Then another circuit for counter sockets

I'd put the fridge on with this "other" circuit.

Extra circuits require extra space on the board, use up neutral and earth terminations in it also, reduce the space to work with and generally add to the workload and cost involved. Quite how someone could price for this sort of stuff and still get jobs, I'm not sure.

jjf1974

meercat wrote: »

my advise would be at least 5 circuits
i would put separate circuits for
1 tumble dryer
2 wash machine
3 dishwasher
4 fridge/freezer
5 general kitchen sockets above counter

overkill?????
possibly ,but everything is covered and if possible i try to fit rcbo's to each circuit
fit a 3 row board and 2 pole busbar to top row with a rcbo for immersion and a 10amp rcbo for bathroom lights lights

All these extra rcbo's and a 3 way board as well as extra cable and work would surely add a couple of hundred euros to the price of the job,hard to see the need .

Apprentice30

Hi guys looking for some help!!! I went to do a job in a house where the rcd was tripping. As the house was old I put in a new fuse board. I was able to identify then that the kitchen circuit was tripping the rcd. But I came across a problem which I can't get my head around. Wile checking that everything in the house was wiring I came to the electric shower. When I turned it on it tripped the rcd!!! I checked the wiring it seemed fine. The shower was fed from its own rcbo. When I turned off breaker feeding the kitchen and turned on the shower the rcbo didn't trip. I haven't checked the wiring of the kitchen yet to see is eveything ok. When I take the kitchen out of the rcbo circuit everything works fine. Could this be nuisance tripping? I'm scratching my head over this!! Any help would be a great help

meercat

Have you fed the shower rcbo off the correct live and neutral busbar

Apprentice30

The rcbo is fed from the bottom of my lighting breakers and my neutral is in the main neutral not the rcd neutral. When I was at the house in the kitchen everything is on the one circuit. Fridge/freezer cooker and when I switched on the kettle it also tripped the rcd. I was simply putting this down to maybe over load on the circuit even tho I'd doubt it. I'm scratching my head what it could be.

maxfresh

a rcd tripping is not because of overload , sounds like a borrowed neutral somewhere ,switch off all mcbs except kitchen and see does the rcd trip

meercat

Apprentice30 wrote: »

When I was at the house in the kitchen everything is on the one circuit. Fridge/freezer cooker and when I switched on the kettle it also tripped the rcd.

is the cooker on the rcd(it shouldnt be)

disconnect all the neutrals off the rcd busbar
turn rcd on
switch shower on
check lights/cooker/shower for correct function

if everything ok then
connect socket neutrals one by one
start with the immersion(this is usually a bogey)
check all circuits again
then connect next neutral and check all circuits again
proceed until you find the faulty one and investigate

sometimes a neutral for a light circuit may have been connected to a local socket so check for this also


if you can post a clear pic of the db,it would be great


welcome to boards by the way

Apprentice30

Sorry the cooker is on it own breaker not part of the rcd circuit. Meercat thank you for that information. Hopefully this will help me find the fault!!!

2011

Most electrical problems are best solved by a process of elimination such as the way suggested by meercat above.

Apprentice30

I went to look at that job again and done everything that was suggested above. Everything worked perfect again until I turned on a few things. The rcd tripped when the shower was running and then I turned the kettle on. I pulled a new feed to the kitchen thinking the old wiring was wrong. I haven't a clue what is goin on I'm scratching my head. The board seems to be wired fine the rcd only trips when I have a few items on?????

cast_iron

What make of RCD did you put in? I remember troubleshooting a rewire where the RCD would trip only when a load was put on. After ripping the place assunder twice, it turned out to be a faulty RCD in the end. Swapped it out for a new one of a decent make and all was fine.

meercat

cast_iron wrote: »

What make of RCD did you put in? I remember troubleshooting a rewire where the RCD would trip only when a load was put on. After ripping the place assunder twice, it turned out to be a faulty RCD in the end. Swapped it out for a new one of a decent make and all was fine.

this happened me once too,fnn nightmare