Just to make the blood boil..

Duggys Housemate

pennypocket wrote: »

I leave it there. Wealth taxes include assessments of income.

No they don't. A wealth tax is a tax on wealth not income. The tax the ICTU wants is apparently a larger wage tax. That's not income either , well its not all income.

Duggys Housemate

pennypocket wrote: »

Plus, someone on 24k doesn't pay more in VAT on items purchased than anyone else. Proportionally they pay more tax as a percentage of what they earn and consume in the first place. I don't need to prove anything.

What tax? We already know that income tax is zero. Now you need to prove that VAT makes up for the zero income tax to prove that all taxes disproportionately hit the poor.

pennypocket

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

No they don't. A wealth tax is a tax on wealth not income. The tax the ICTU wants is apparently a larger wage tax. That's not income either , well its not all income.

Read the article again. It is about higher rates of income tax for higher earners but also about the exchange of land in this country during the boom years. For every developer who purchased land at inflated rates there was an equivalent party who made a lot of money on the purchase. This suggests there is a huge amount of wealth (c. 60 billion made in about 6 years v the current amount we supposedly owe, http://www.financedublin.com/debtclock.php). There remains a lot of wealthy individuals in this country (although most have pulled their money out of the country, c.f. the flight of capital following 2008) that should proportionally contribute more. I am ending this conversation as obviously you are immune to evidence.

pennypocket

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

What tax? We already know that income tax is zero. Now you need to prove that VAT makes up for the zero income tax to prove that all taxes disproportionately hit the poor.

Who pays zero income tax? The USC is levied at incomes over €10,036 p.a., since January 2011. Everyone will have to pay property and water taxes soon, regardless of income. Again, as consumption of these items are not elastic, lower waged families will pay proportionately more in terms of their income.

kowloon

07Lapierre wrote: »

What was the alternative? not vote at all?

I suppose it saves a trip.

Mr. Nice

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

I notice people are more accepting about lawyers though. They ate often millionaires.

Freudian slip of the day

Duggys Housemate

pennypocket wrote: »

Read the article again. It is about higher rates of income tax for higher earners but also about the exchange of land in this country during the boom years. For every developer who purchased land at inflated rates there was an equivalent party who made a lot of money on the purchase. This suggests there is a huge amount of wealth (c. 60 billion made in about 6 years v the current amount we supposedly owe, http://www.financedublin.com/debtclock.php). There remains a lot of wealthy individuals in this country (although most have pulled their money out of the country, c.f. the flight of capital following 2008) that should proportionally contribute more. I am ending this conversation as obviously you are immune to evidence.

I'm not ending the discussion. Your link to an ICTU blurb from 2009 which also included this gem :


The union group says that "whatever other problems Ireland has, it has at least entered this recession with the lowest debt-to-GDP ratio in Europe.

Is hardly the definitive document. They also mentioned no wealth tax. Sure, like you, they whined about increases in wealth. But all they argued for in reply was a increase in higher wage taxation.

Red Pepper

Fair play to the guy that wrote that email to our most useless leader. Most of us sit and moan and do sweet fcuk all but at least he did something. I see a lot of the heroes on here are slagging him as a simpleton, that says more about them than the email author. It's an Irish thing I suppose.

Red Pepper

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Doing something is one thing. Rattling off silly silly questions that do nothing but betray the ignorance of the writer is another.

Here's a silly question - are you a muppet?

Red Pepper

pennypocket wrote: »

Perhaps so, but the questions he asks are valid. I think half of our problem is that when someone actually says the emperor has no clothes the rest of the village calls him an idiot.

Well put.

AnonoBoy

Red Pepper wrote: »

Here's a silly question - are you a muppet?

If I was I'd be Dr. Teeth.

He was my favourite.

He also didn't believe that writing a letter full of f*cking stupid questions was any way to get anything done and thought that a modicum of intelligence should be used when questioning the eejits who are running the country instead of blindly just cutting and pasting some moronic points from the Freemen and sending them off to the Taoiseach's office to do nothing except get laughed at and binned.

pennypocket

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

I'm not ending the discussion. Your link to an ICTU blurb from 2009 which also included this gem :


The union group says that "whatever other problems Ireland has, it has at least entered this recession with the lowest debt-to-GDP ratio in Europe.

Is hardly the definitive document. They also mentioned no wealth tax. Sure, like you, they whined about increases in wealth. But all they argued for in reply was a increase in higher wage taxation.

Well I am, you can continue as you will. It was in 2009. I have no love for the unions (nor social partnerships in the first place). It's not the definitive document. I could link to much much more, but I couldn't be arsed. 'Increases in wealth' should be taxed. It's like pissing in the wind at this stage. And yes, as many in this thread have said, the original email guy is essentially doing the same. He may be deluded, but some of his points ring true (not the 'freeman' ****e though). That is all.

Duggys Housemate

The questions start off dumb and achieve a level of dumbness herthofore not seen in Facebook posting. ( I jest. But only a little).

There are one or two good points. But mostly crap, and often wrong. It's too long to reply to all of it as that would also be a crap post. But let's take the first question.

1. Please demonstrate your actual qualifications to lead this country.

Let's ignore the fact you can't demonstrate qualifications, you show your qualifications, or demonstrate your ability.

Here's the answer. I'll be Enda.

i was elected by my constituents to the Dail, and the Dail elected me as Taoiseach, i was therefore appointed by the President in accordance with the constitution. I dont need any other qualifications Sonny boy.

So with the first question being dumber than the dumbest question in dumbtown I suspect a lot of people stopped there. If you read on you find out that the central is privately owned ( it's owned by the government ) and Enda was harassed about government departments having to make a profit, or some such ****e.

Questions of a madman.

Noreen1

I agree with the original post that our dear leader is overpaid.
Neither do I have any faith in austerity as a solution to our economic woes. Certainly not when austerity is touted as a solution simultaneously in Europe and the USA.

However: Is it just me, or are there a lot of people more focused on the fact that our TDs are overpaid, than the actual cause of our problems, and how to find a solution?

Duggys Housemate

pennypocket wrote: »

Well I am, you can continue as you will. It was in 2009. I have no love for the unions (nor social partnerships in the first place). It's not the definitive document. I could link to much much more, but I couldn't be arsed. 'Increases in wealth' should be taxed. It's like pissing in the wind at this stage. And yes, as many in this thread have said, the original email guy is essentially doing the same. He may be deluded, but some of his points ring true (not the 'freeman' ****e though). That is all.

It's like pissing in the wind alright. I can't get an answer regarding how the low end workers who pay no income tax pay more actual tax, nor have we heard any way to tax these increases in wealth.

You are confusing wealth with income. In fact you are confusing wealth with wages. That's not an argument. If the ICTU is appalled that 1% of the population own 20% of the wealth, well they have already earned it so the only way to tax it is a wealth tax. None was mentioned. If they want to tax the income of the wealth owners they would need to tax interest, dividends, capital gains etc. all that was mentioned was an income tax.

It's not just you. Although most people know the real rich dont earn wages - or don't earn just wages at any rate - they still clamour for more taxes on wages - the misnamed income tax - and less on property.

pennypocket

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

It's like pissing in the wind alright. I can't get an answer regarding how the low end workers who pay no income tax pay more actual tax, nor have we heard any way to tax these increases in wealth.

You are confusing wealth with income. In fact you are confusing wealth with wages. That's not an argument. If the ICTU is appalled that 1% of the population own 20% of the wealth, well they have already earned it so the only way to tax it is a wealth tax. None was mentioned. If they want to tax the income of the wealth owners they would need to tax interest, dividends, capital gains etc. all that was mentioned was an income tax.

It's not just you. Although most people know the real rich dont earn wages - or don't earn just wages at any rate - they still clamour for more taxes on wages - the misnamed income tax - and less on property.

Ah jebus. I argued that both should be taxed progressively. Forget about the finfacts article if it continues to itch you up the wrong way. So, regardless of whether it's earned or not (most of the wealth in this country is earned, i.e. via 'rent-seeking' activities such as the income earned from the licencing of mobile phone technologies) and no, it should not fall heavily on the PAYE worker who earns an average wage of 35k. We are on the same page if you are arguing for higher property/wealth taxes. (Cf George Monbiot, http://www.monbiot.com/ especially this : http://www.monbiot.com/2012/11/26/the-fat-of-the-land/).

pennypocket

Noreen1 wrote: »

I agree with the original post that our dear leader is overpaid.
Neither do I have any faith in austerity as a solution to our economic woes. Certainly not when austerity is touted as a solution simultaneously in Europe and the USA.

However: Is it just me, or are there a lot of people more focused on the fact that our TDs are overpaid, than the actual cause of our problems, and how to find a solution?

The excessive wages paid to our Dear Leader and his colleagues are not the problem really. Cutting their entitlements would not get us out of the shíthole we are in. Nevertheless, the optics are important. And also, as they base their salaries and pension entitlements on civil service scales it would be a benchmark to all that are currently overpaid in the service of the public (especially the advisors currently paid above the cap). The actual cause of our problems lies far beyond our control really, in the structural adjustment programs of the IMF and the World Bank we are currently under. BTW, America went the stimulus route, Europe opted for austerity. Although with the 'fiscal cliff' bullshít that could change.

Noreen1

pennypocket wrote: »

The excessive wages paid to our Dear Leader and his colleagues are not the problem really. Cutting their entitlements would not get us out of the ****hole we are in. Nevertheless, the optics are important. And also, as they base their salaries and pension entitlements on civil service scales it would be a benchmark to all that are currently overpaid in the service of the public (especially the advisors currently paid above the cap). The actual cause of our problems lies far beyond our control really, in the structural adjustment programs of the IMF and the World Bank we are currently under.

I agree that the optics are important.

I think the cause of our problems is not entirely beyond our control. Certainly, our Government could (and should, imo) make it very clear to our European counterparts just what the price of austerity is to the average citizen in the Country.

Even the IMF are warning about fiscal targets possibly not being met at this stage - and they're not exactly known for their compassion!

hatrickpatrick

Sergeant wrote: »

Tedious and boring.

Once again, this is why we will never, ever have justice in this country. How in hell is this tedious and boring? Are you personally ok with the status quo?

charlemont

seamus wrote: »

Rabble rabble rabble.

Looked at the top of the list. Stupid question. Looked at the bottom of the list, "Treasonous".

Letter was clearly written by an idiot.

No offence but at least that guy is actually trying to do something about the situation, Even though its only a poxy letter he made the effort to write it and to be honest I'd love to see Enda attempt to answer it.

charlemont

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Once again, this is why we will never, ever have justice in this country. How in hell is this tedious and boring? Are you personally ok with the status quo?

The attitudes of some people here is crazy, Same ol' same ol' nothing will ever change mentality, Ah shur what can we do ?? :eek:

It pisses me off, Its like a form of weakness, This willingness to be ****ed over. Ireland could and should be a top class place but if the people want that they will have to accept change but change won't come with the current attitudes.

dvpower

charlemont wrote: »

No offence but at least that guy is actually trying to do something about the situation

What is he trying to do about the situation?
Apart from writing stupid letters.

seamus

charlemont wrote: »

No offence but at least that guy is actually trying to do something about the situation, Even though its only a poxy letter he made the effort to write it and to be honest I'd love to see Enda attempt to answer it.

I fail to see how a letter full of loaded and rhetorical questions (which display a complete lack of understanding of how things work) constitutes "doing something".

It wouldn't really be possible for Enda to properly answer it any more than he could give a proper answer to, "So Enda, when did you stop beating your wife?".

Noreen1

seamus wrote: »

I fail to see how a letter full of loaded and rhetorical questions (which display a complete lack of understanding of how things work) constitutes "doing something".

It wouldn't really be possible for Enda to properly answer it any more than he could give a proper answer to, "So Enda, when did you stop beating your wife?".

Whereas I tend to agree that the letter is asking the wrong questions, in fairness, if nothing else, he is making his displeasure clear.

If enough people show how unhappy they are with the way this Country is being run - we might just see some change.
While the majority of the people just moan to one another, our Government can continue to delude itself that they are doing a great job - and (much needed) change just wont happen.

TwoShedsJackson

he is making his displeasure clear.

He's sounding like an aggressive muppet is what he's doing - I mean asking a list of questions, some of which cannot even be answered by Enda Kenny, while others are farcical freeman bull****, and having this as his caveat:

These questions are clear, I want and ONLY want, clear answers. I do NOT want to hear waffling generalizations; I do NOT want to hear that it was the previous governments fault; I do NOT want to hear any of the following phrases: "in the interest of the tax payer'; 'for the good of the country'; 'in the national interest'; 'sustainable growth'; 'helping the most vulnerable in society'; 'making difficult choices' or any other buzz words. The questions below are asked in clear, simple English. I will ONLY accept answers in clear simple English. I want ALL these questions answered - properly. If you fail to answer any of these questions satisfactorily I will assume that you are attempting to evade your responsibilities.

makes him sound like a person who will neither accept any answers he was given, and like a six year old who is not being given a toy he wants for Christmas.

I'd ignore this too if I was Taoiseach, and rightly so.

seamus

Good times and bad, there will always be people who are unhappy.

Politicians accept this as their lot. As a result, people who individually contact them and say, "I'm unhappy" get filtered out as noise.

There are two ways in which people can effectively communicate their displeasure

1. Get out on the streets and protest peacefully

2. Do your own research, come up with solutions to the problems that are well thought-out and rational (e.g. "burn the bondholders" is neither), then work to have them published at a national level to encourage public discussion of your solutions.

A list of ridiculous questions posted on facebook and boards.ie is not any kind of meaningful or effective communication and will be ignored and written off by politicians, just like they are on boards.ie

Sergeant

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Once again, this is why we will never, ever have justice in this country. How in hell is this tedious and boring? Are you personally ok with the status quo?

Multiple amazing leaps of mental gymnastics going on here.

I read a poorly written piece of faux-outrage of the type that facebook groups are notorious for, and offer my opinion on it - that it is tedious and boring. How this can lead you to assume that there will never be 'justice' in this country is one that has me perplexed.

Tedious and boring because it is spectacularly ill-informed, smacks of freeman bullshít, and is like an end-of-year compendium of every ranting and indignant topic started in AH on matters relating to the economy.

I love the status quo. Saw them at a gig a few years ago.

Noreen1

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

He's sounding like an aggressive muppet is what he's doing - I mean asking a list of questions, some of which cannot even be answered by Enda Kenny, while others are farcical freeman bull****, and having this as his caveat:



makes him sound like a person who will neither accept any answers he was given, and like a six year old who is not being given a toy he wants for Christmas.

I'd ignore this too if I was Taoiseach, and rightly so.

That's not the point I was making though.

I wouldn't sign my name to his list of questions, personally.
But he is at least trying. I'll give him some credit for that, even if I don't agree with everything he says.

seamus wrote: »

Good times and bad, there will always be people who are unhappy.

Politicians accept this as their lot. As a result, people who individually contact them and say, "I'm unhappy" get filtered out as noise.

There are two ways in which people can effectively communicate their displeasure

1. Get out on the streets and protest peacefully

2. Do your own research, come up with solutions to the problems that are well thought-out and rational (e.g. "burn the bondholders" is neither), then work to have them published at a national level to encourage public discussion of your solutions.

A list of ridiculous questions posted on facebook and boards.ie is not any kind of meaningful or effective communication and will be ignored and written off by politicians, just like they are on boards.ie

1: Given that a lot of people have neither the time, or the money, to travel to Dublin to protest, and in the absence of National protest being organised in every large town in the Country, as happened with the PAYE marches in the 80s, I can't see that happening.

2: The electorate are not obliged to come up with the solutions. That's what TDs and civil servants are paid to do.

3: In Countries where direct Democracy is the norm., I rather suspect that social networking sites are used to raise issues that people want to see changed.
It's an effective way of organising people.

El Weirdo

Red Pepper wrote: »

Here's a silly question - are you a muppet?

Banned.

charlemont

dvpower wrote: »

What is he trying to do about the situation?
Apart from writing stupid letters.

Would ye prefer if he sent a letter bomb instead ??

pennypocket

charlemont wrote: »

Would ye prefer if he sent a letter bomb instead ??

Well obviously no. That is a stretch to the point of of obtuseness, similar to an earlier post in which someone speculated on what the letter writer hypothetically would have written to Santa as an 11 year old. Unnecessary whataboutery really.