Afraid to call in sick. :(

hattoncracker

Hi,

I'm wondering if I could get some advice.

I changed jobs in October, the job I was in previous to that, I very rarely called in sick unless I absolutely had to, and would sometimes come in when I probably shouldn't.

In my new job I'm on probation for six months, two weeks ago my mum got really ill and I had to call in for two days and head home which is on the other end of the country, and with all the stress of that I caught a cold last week. When I came back, I had a back to work interview that was basically told that sick days is something that they look at when they're deciding who to give permanent contracts to, and to not develop any bad patterns.

I went in for three days last week and I had two days off (Thursday and Friday) and spent as much time as I could resting, but on Sunday I started getting chest pains and had trouble breathing, and my boyfriend's mother dragged me to the doctor on Monday morning before I went to work.

I was told I have a chest infection, and pulled muscles from coughing, and she tried to cert me off for the week. I took a cert for two days, but she wants me to take the week, and I'm on very strong antibiotics and anti-inflammatories since Monday.

I thought I'd be feeling much better today but I'm not, I'm weak as a kitten and I'm really sweating from a temp. I'm due to be working til Friday, and then Xmas Eve, and then back on the 27th and 28th of December.

Should I just go in and work away, or should I take the week off? I'm really really afraid that I won't get the job because of this as a permanent contract is a really difficult thing to get from them, only 10% of the previous applicants were successful after probation, and I can't afford to lose this job.

Eoin

I know it's easy for me to say - but absolutely take the week off before you get even sicker. Deal with the work stuff when you're in a fit state, you'll be no good to them if you're as ill as you say.

gozunda

hattoncracker wrote: »

Hi,

I'm wondering if I could get some advice.

I changed jobs in October, the job I was in previous to that, I very rarely called in sick unless I absolutely had to, and would sometimes come in when I probably shouldn't.

In my new job I'm on probation for six months, two weeks ago my mum got really ill and I had to call in for two days and head home which is on the other end of the country, and with all the stress of that I caught a cold last week. When I came back, I had a back to work interview that was basically told that sick days is something that they look at when they're deciding who to give permanent contracts to, and to not develop any bad patterns.

I went in for three days last week and I had two days off (Thursday and Friday) and spent as much time as I could resting, but on Sunday I started getting chest pains and had trouble breathing, and my boyfriend's mother dragged me to the doctor on Monday morning before I went to work.

I was told I have a chest infection, and pulled muscles from coughing, and she tried to cert me off for the week. I took a cert for two days, but she wants me to take the week, and I'm on very strong antibiotics and anti-inflammatories since Monday.

I thought I'd be feeling much better today but I'm not, I'm weak as a kitten and I'm really sweating from a temp. I'm due to be working til Friday, and then Xmas Eve, and then back on the 27th and 28th of December.

Should I just go in and work away, or should I take the week off? I'm really really afraid that I won't get the job because of this as a permanent contract is a really difficult thing to get from them, only 10% of the previous applicants were successful after probation, and I can't afford to lose this job.

They sound like a right shower of ******.
I still am amazed at how unbelievable some employers can be regarding their expectations of employers who work for them.

Ultimately your health should be the first priority. What is your direct manager like? Can you call them and explain that you are I'll.

Tbh If you are not fit to work then don't. You risk your own health as well as the health if collegues you work with.

At the end of the day a company who treats its employees with so little consideration is more than likley not going to be a good employer.


Many employers don't even bother to pay employees sick pay and yet they expect employees to bend themselves over backward even against medical advice to 'make up' the time. Simply unbelievable tbh ...

Its Christmas - Scrooge is alive and well & Tiny Tim might as well go and jump....

O.A.P

Stay at home until you are well enough to work again.
I learned this the hard way kept coming to work with the flu until I got pneumonia, Then spent two weeks in hospital and four weeks at home recovering.
All because I needed to take a few days off at the end of that month

Procrastastudy

OP sorry to come in and be the barer of bad news but you have to see this from the employers point of view. Make sure you are in daily contact with your line manager and I would suggest requesting a meeting upon your return. At that meeting I would offer them your permission to check with your previous employer that you had a good attendance record (assuming you do) and that you would be more than willing to extend your probationary period due to them not getting a good picture of the 'real you'. Make sure all your sickness is properly certified.

Realistically most employers say three months or six months but really everyone is on 12 months probation anyway. The only way to play this one is to play Ms Co-operative. It's simply not worth the risk to an employer to be stuck with someone with poor attendance these days. That said - played right there is no need for this to be a massive issue.

Remember the MOST IMPORTANT thing is your health.

EDIT: I'd also offer (if you are 100% sure you'll be recovered) to do some unsocial hours like New Years eve and day if they need cover. Don't offer this if there is even a 0.1% chance of letting them down.

hattoncracker

Procrastastudy wrote: »

OP sorry to come in and be the barer of bad news but you have to see this from the employers point of view. Make sure you are in daily contact with your line manager and I would suggest requesting a meeting upon your return. At that meeting I would offer them your permission to check with your previous employer that you had a good attendance record (assuming you do) and that you would be more than willing to extend your probationary period due to them not getting a good picture of the 'real you'. Make sure all your sickness is properly certified.

Realistically most employers say three months or six months but really everyone is on 12 months probation anyway. The only way to play this one is to play Ms Co-operative. It's simply not worth the risk to an employer to be stuck with someone with poor attendance these days. That said - played right there is no need for this to be a massive issue.

Remember the MOST IMPORTANT thing is your health.

EDIT: I'd also offer (if you are 100% sure you'll be recovered) to do some unsocial hours like New Years eve and day if they need cover. Don't offer this if there is even a 0.1% chance of letting them down.

Yeah, I know.. I'll be having a meeting if I go back tomorrow-but I'm afraid to go back tomorrow in case it makes me worse and I have to call in Thursday or Friday. Aaah!! I'm a bit torn, tbh. If I knew that they didn't think I was taking the piss then I'd be ok with it. But I don't know. I'm already working Christmas Eve, the 27th and the 28th (my birthday), and NYE so it's not like I don't have any anti-social hours ahead of me!

gozunda

hattoncracker wrote: »

Yeah, I know.. I'll be having a meeting if I go back tomorrow-but I'm afraid to go back tomorrow in case it makes me worse and I have to call in Thursday or Friday. Aaah!! I'm a bit torn, tbh. If I knew that they didn't think I was taking the piss then I'd be ok with it. But I don't know. I'm already working Christmas Eve, the 27th and the 28th (my birthday), and NYE so it's not like I don't have any anti-social hours ahead of me!

Tbh 'meetings' because you have been out sick is a bit of a joke. Tbh.

Did you get a medical cert? If you did hand it to them and politly but firmly stand your ground. Be clear and concise with facts. You were Sick and were advised to stay of work on medical grounds. If they think you are "taking the piss" that's their problem. This amounts to them being unreasonable and bullying imo.

HC - try not to think about this too much - it can make it harder to get better if you are feeling stressed or anxious.

Hope you are feeling better soon.

Eoin

gozunda wrote: »

Tbh 'meetings' because you have been out sick is a bit of a joke. Tbh.

Did you get a medical cert? If you did hand it to them and politly but firmly stand your ground. Be clear and concise with facts. You were Sick and were advised to stay of work on medical grounds. If they think you are "taking the piss" that's their problem. This amounts to them being unreasonable and bullying imo.

HC - try not to think about this too much - it can make it harder to get better if you are feeling stressed or anxious.

Hope you are feeling better soon.

For a start, those meetings can be a good idea to make sure that the person is fit to return to work, confirm that there are no factors in work causing it etc - it doesn't have to have a negative or accusatory tone to it.

Also, no - it's not just their problem. For a start, if you're on probation and can be let go very easily. You do not hold the upper hand by any means. Not to mention that disciplinary procedures can be followed for absenteeism, no matter how genuine the illness (if you're probation or not).

As I said earlier, the OP has to look after their health first - but it's not a good idea to assume that there's no chance of any blowback just because you've a sick cert.

drunkmonkey

hattoncracker wrote: »

Yeah, I know.. I'll be having a meeting if I go back tomorrow-but I'm afraid to go back tomorrow in case it makes me worse and I have to call in Thursday or Friday.

Cracker, you have a cough and a cold, your not on deaths door, it's Christmas week and your not showing up. I know your sick but if your that sick they'll send you home anyway once you turn up, nobody wants somebody coughing and spluttering on them this time of year. (especially if your in the Hospitality industry?).
If your in a Job that winds down at Christmas you could probably stay at home, but if your on probation in a business that is busy at Christmas and somebody else has to carry the can for you I wouldn't fancy your chances of holding on to the Job.
Go in to work. If you had the flu I'd understand but taking a week off for a cold is a bit much.

gozunda

Eoin wrote: »

For a start, those meetings can be a good idea to make sure that the person is fit to return to work, confirm that there are no factors in work causing it etc - it doesn't have to have a negative or accusatory tone to it.

Also, no - it's not just their problem. For a start, if you're on probation and can be let go very easily. You do not hold the upper hand by any means. Not to mention that disciplinary procedures can be followed for absenteeism, no matter how genuine the illness (if you're probation or not).

As I said earlier, the OP has to look after their health first - but it's not a good idea to assume that there's no chance of any blowback just because you've a sick cert.

My point is the OP has a sick note relative to a chest infection and torn muscles from coughing. Not just a 'cold'

Company Staff are not qualified to check or verify if a staff member is medically fit or otherwise. The medical note will state why the OP was out. There is no need for the Spanish inquisition tbh.

I'm sorry but no there cannot be disciplinary action held against an employee for being sick - that suggestion is itself sick.

If the company is that analy retentive regarding genuine illness then they are potentially going to bigger issues to deal with due to unfair work practices

As I suggested OP - Attend the 'meeting' be polite with medical cert details and stand your ground. Tbh it is sad but it sounds like the OP is absolutely petrified at the companies attitudes. This is hardly conducive to a good working environment.

Stheno

gozunda wrote: »

My point is the OP has a sick note.
Company Staff are not qualified to check or verify if a staff member is medically fit or otherwise. The medical note will state why the OP was out. There is no need for the Dpanish inquisition tbh.

I'm sorry but no there cannot be disciplinary action held against an employee for being sick - that suggestion is itself sick.

If the company is that analy retentive regarding genuine illness then they are potentially going to bigger issues to deal with due to unfair work practices

As I suggested OP - Attend the 'meeting' be polite with medical cert details and stand your ground. Tbh it is sad but it sounds like the OP is absolutely petrified at the companies attitudes. This is hardly conducive to a good working environment.

Gozunda

You are talking complete bollox to be honest.
Having worked in companies like that, if staff were on the level and trusted they would'nt do the interviews, and I've worked in plenty of companies where they didn't and faced the sack.

OP needs to talk to his/her superior and understand the criteria to be made permanent.

OP also needs to be job hunting for a new job as they are temporary

Procrastastudy

gozunda wrote: »

My point is the OP has a sick note.
Company Staff are not qualified to check or verify if a staff member is medically fit or otherwise. The medical note will state why the OP was out. There is no need for the Dpanish inquisition tbh.

I'm sorry but no there cannot be disciplinary action held against an employee for being sick - that suggestion is itself sick.

If the company is that analy retentive regarding genuine illness then they are potentially going to bigger issues to deal with due to unfair work practices

As I suggested OP - Attend the 'meeting' be polite with medical cert details and stand your ground. Tbh it is sad but it sounds like the OP is absolutely petrified at the companies attitudes. This is hardly conducive to a good working environment.

People forget that even if you are genuinely sick it can get to the point that you'll be let go for not fulfilling your contract. Employers know this and use the probationary period as a yard stick.

It has to be seen from both sides.

Eoin

gozunda wrote: »

I'm sorry but no there cannot be disciplinary action held against an employee for being sick - that suggestion is itself sick.

This is incorrect - see this page.

If illness or injury is at issue, it is often assumed that you cannot be dismissed fairly while on certified sick leave from your work. However, this is not true. It is difficult to lay down hard and fast rules to apply to these cases as each will be treated on its own merits. Issues such as length of service, previous record and the importance of the job will vary and will have to be taken into account.

Regardless, no disciplinary procedures need be followed at all while on probation.

I don't want to panic the OP, but it's not a good idea to give incorrect information.

uck51js9zml2yt

If you are medically certified to be off sick then you are not insured to be in work. I often sent guys home even when I was desperate and needed them to work.

Also, going in does no one any favours. You get sicker and your colleagues get sick.

gozunda

Procrastastudy wrote: »

People forget that even if you are genuinely sick it can get to the point that you'll be let go for not fulfilling your contract. Employers know this and use the probationary period as a yard stick.

It has to be seen from both sides.

Tbh that kind of kick off takes a hell of a lot of time out sick. Not short periods that are medically certified. Trouble with these type of set ups is that unfortunately no balance of sides. As I said this type of management is not condusive to a good working environment.

gozunda

Eoin wrote: »

This is incorrect - see this page.

Regardless, no disciplinary procedures need be followed at all while on probation.

I don't want to panic the OP, but it's not a good idea to give incorrect information.

This is not incorrect

My point was that an employee can not be disciplined for being 'sick' - I did not say for 'being out sick'

However for correct information in context for the OP I have abstracted the following from your link

Dismissal related to short-term illness generally occurs where you have a medical problem that results in frequent absences for short periods from the workplace. Assuming that the genuine nature of your problem was not in question, your employer will have to show that a pattern of absence exists, that it is causing problems, that the problem is unlikely to get better and that you have been warned that dismissal is likely.

The onus is on the employer to show a persistent pattern. Hardly the case in normal illness type situations.

Eoin

gozunda wrote: »

Tbh that kind of kick off takes a hell of a lot of time out sick. Not short periods that are medically certified. Trouble with these type of set ups is that unfortunately no balance of sides. As I said this type of management is not condusive to a good working environment.

Regular short absences are just as likely to cause it - possibly more so. But again, the OP is on probation. They can let him/her go tomorrow without following any procedures.

It might not be the sign of a particularly flexible company to work for, or hopefully the company just does this during probation just to scare people off pulling sickies when they start, and relax soon after.

But either way, the point is that the OP does not have a particularly strong position to dig his/her heels in, so I don't think you're giving very good advice.

@hattoncracker - hopefully this is all academic arguing and they'll be reasonable when you return. But you don't sound like you're in a good state at the moment, so just worry about getting better and maybe keep in contact with your line manager as suggested.

The onus is on the employer to show a persistent pattern. Hardly the case in normal illness type situations.

Fair point - but while on probation it's irrelevant.

hattoncracker

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Cracker, you have a cough and a cold, your not on deaths door, it's Christmas week and your not showing up. I know your sick but if your that sick they'll send you home anyway once you turn up, nobody wants somebody coughing and spluttering on them this time of year. (especially if your in the Hospitality industry?).
If your in a Job that winds down at Christmas you could probably stay at home, but if your on probation in a business that is busy at Christmas and somebody else has to carry the can for you I wouldn't fancy your chances of holding on to the Job.
Go in to work. If you had the flu I'd understand but taking a week off for a cold is a bit much.

With respect, it was a cough and a cold last week. Now its a chest infection and I'm quite unwell. If it was a cough and a cold then id just be going in like I was last week-and I'm on some heavy duty meds for the infection.

My job is an inbound call centre so its hard not to cough as I spend all day talking.

But you are right, I think maybe I'll just suck this one up.

foxinsox

A lot of companies do "Back to Work" meetings after an employee absence. I remember the main reason when I used to do them in an old job was to genuinely make sure the employee was ok to work.

@ OP

Many years ago I would have worried about it like you are..

But as I've got older I've realised that your health is more important than anything else.

That sounds crap I know, it won't pay the bills.
It may affect whether you get the full time position or not.

But, in the grand scheme of things, life, the universe and stuff: you being well in life is much more important than any job.

I know it's hard and probably wrecking your head, which is not helping your health.

Could you survive if you didn't have a job?

Yes, you could, it might not be fun but I'm sure you would be ok.

It's not just a cold you have, only you can decide if you really are able for work. If you really aren't, just call in sick, say you are really sorry to let them down but you are feeling awful and have to return to your doctor tomorrow. Phone to doctors surgery and ask for another cert.

Hope you feel better soon

drunkmonkey

hattoncracker wrote: »

But you are right, I think maybe I'll just suck this one up.

Your well able for it don't be a bit worried, tell them at the interview your hopefully over the worst of it, if your still crook at the end of the day head over to your boss and say it to them.
I'm an ex-smoker and an employer if you gave me that torn muscles in your chest excuse i'd laugh and start plotting how to get rid of you for being too soft!!
Work could be a bit of a giggle christmas week anyway, makes the best of it, it's a good time to bond with other staff...probably plenty of prizes & gifts floating around as well.

tatli_lokma

OP, as others have said, try not to stress too much about it. I understand that you are worried due to having a 'back to work' interview last time. But for perspective, I would say that in large companies, particularly call centre environments, they do tend to hold the reigns quite tight when it comes to unscheduled absence. This is so that across all departments things are run the same. Cynically, I would also think that they know full well that the environment is stressful and that people may well pull sickies because they weren't up to facing work some days. So knowing this, they actively discourage uncertified or unscheduled sickness leave by reminding you that regular absence is potentially a disciplinary matter.

My own husband worked for a large multi national - in 23 mths of employment he never had a sick day or was even late. Then 1 mth before his 2 yr anniversary at the company, he ended up with a broken rib, thanks to an over zealous co-worker at a charity football event the company had organised. He was off for 4 days. Despite this he still had the stern 'absence could lead to disciplinary' meeting. So my point is, in many companies, regardless of the situation, regardless of whether they believe you or not, it is just standard practice to give this spiel.

All you can do, as Eoin says is to make sure that you keep in contact with your manager. Don't be appologetic as its not your fault you are sick, but do make sure s/he knows that you are sympathetic to the fact that it is a busy time of year and that you appreciate that your time off may cause staffing difficulties. I would even say, don't be afraid to voice your concerns to your manager that your time off may have a detrimental effect on your probation decision.

When you return, keep the head down and make sure your work is to a high standard. Then hopefully when it comes to review time and they are deciding if to keep you or not, your work will be the main deciding factor and they will be able to identify your time off as a one off for genuine reasons.

You do have to accept that possibly if it comes down to you and another colleague based on work quality, they will decide to offer the permanent position to the other person because of the absence - particularly if they work on a scoring matrix when it comes to making these decision. But that is a risk you just have to take. You have no choice really - you are ill and that can't be helped.

CatFromHue

I've only ever had one back to work interview, it was when I was working on contract too.

I'd been out for a week, I'd rang on the Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday mornings to give them an update before I had to just say I'm not going to be in for the week. I had a Doctors cert and my main vibe from the meeting was that my manager didn't want me at work if others were going to pick something up for me.

It didn't affect my contract and about a month later I was offered a permanent position.

juan.kerr

gozunda wrote: »

They sound like a right shower of ******.
I still am amazed at how unbelievable some employers can be regarding their expectations of employers who work for them.

Unless the OP has changed the post, this is a bit much. To me it reads that the employer gave friendly advice before something became a problem.

While I have sympathy for the OP, the first 2 days weren't actually legitimate sick leave since the OP wasn't actually sick - his mother was.

Hope you and your mum are getting better OP.

Mrs OBumble

juan.kerr wrote: »

Unless the OP has changed the post, this is a bit much. To me it reads that the employer gave friendly advice before something became a problem.

While I have sympathy for the OP, the first 2 days weren't actually legitimate sick leave since the OP wasn't actually sick - his mother was.

One of the great things about boards is that people get a variety of advice ... inevitably some people will some from biases that lead more strongly toward one side (employer perspective) or the other (workers rights)

I've met contracts in the past that allowed people to use their own sick leave to care for dependent relatives. Originally this was to care for sick children, but as people age their parents can be equally dependent.

I don't know if contracts in this sick-leave-optional country routinely cover that, but some may allow it as an acceptable reason for being absent from work without prior agreement. Remember if you don't turn up and don't have an acceptable excuse, you're considered to have abandoned the job. Sick leave does not necessarily mean paid leave, it just means permission to be absent.

micosoft

One of the big problems is that Doctors notes are completely discredited at this point from an employers point of view. GP's in Ireland have a reputation of giving out certs on demand leading a lot of employers to disregard them. This is why Back to Work interviews are increasingly important and why a lot of employers no longer accept the employees GP but refer to an occupational GP to verify.

Aside from that the advice from some is sound. You are on probation - I'd try to make it in at this stage. You aren't on deaths door and your job is seditionary. Keep a finger on the mute button.

gozunda

micosoft wrote: »

One of the big problems is that Doctors notes are completely discredited at this point from an employers point of view. GP's in Ireland have a reputation of giving out certs on demand leading a lot of employers to disregard them. This is why Back to Work interviews are increasingly important and why a lot of employers no longer accept the employees GP but refer to an occupational GP to verify.

Aside from that the advice from some is sound. You are on probation - I'd try to make it in at this stage. You aren't on deaths door and your job is seditionary. Keep a finger on the mute button.

By disregarding medical opinion employers leave themselves open to ignoring the rights of employees and the risk of legal action. At the end of the day employers cannot assume to override a statement medical opinion. If they are in doubt then the can assign the employee to their own medical representative.

Employers are the ones looking for the medical certificates - by the same instance they cannot then ignore them. If an employer is calling into doubt the opinion or behaviour of a medical professional then take the correct action by reporting the GP to the medical council etc.

Back to work interviews are an artificial construct that are worthless for medical determination as HR staff / management cannot give medical opinion.
As in the case of the OP they serve to harass employees who have already provided employer designated medical certs for absence. I can see some application where an absence is prolonged and a return to work where change has taken place.

Other wise they serve simply as a bully tactic by employers. I see no basis in employment practice or law that gives any employer any rights for such direct intimidation in an area where an employee has a right to medical confidentiality and has already provided a professional statement of their absence especially where many employers do not even basic sick pay.

Mrs OBumble

gozunda wrote: »

By disregarding medical opinion employers leave themselves open to ignoring the rights of employees and the risk of legal action. At the end of the day employers cannot assume to override a statement medical opinion. If they are in doubt then the can assign the employee to their own medical representative.

....

where an employee has a right to medical confidentiality and has already provided a professional statement of their absence especially where many employers do not even basic sick pay.

I totally agree with your first paragraph.

But do keep in mind that a professional statement about ill health explains but does not excuse absence from work.

Unless there is a disability issue involved (in which case discrimination is illegal), employers are free to use absence patterns as a basis for employment decisions. And I totally sympathize: there's no point have a someone one staff if they're frequently going out sick.

It's not about whether sick leave is paid or not, it's about the operational cost and disruption to business involved in replacing a staff member at short notice.

gozunda

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I totally agree with your first paragraph.

But do keep in mind that a professional statement about ill health explains but does not excuse absence from work.

Unless there is a disability issue involved (in which case discrimination is illegal), employers are free to use absence patterns as a basis for employment decisions. And I totally sympathize: there's no point have a someone one staff if they're frequently going out sick.

It's not about whether sick leave is paid or not, it's about the operational cost and disruption to business involved in replacing a staff member at short notice.

Get what you are saying but where this is relevant is where the absences are minor and or limited - then subjecting employees to such inquisitions has an negative effect such as creating an atmosphere of fear of reporting in when actually ill. This is counter-productive to a good working environment imo. In fact This thread highlights this issue very well - "Afraid to call in Sick" - is this what employers really want?

I also find it disturbing that some employers may be casting dispersions on the medical profession provision of medical certificates considering some of the behaviour of some employers highlighted at times in the Labour court / Employment Appeals tribunal

As I said if there is a specific problem with a medical professional then it should be reported and not used an excuse for the introduction of such extreme control practices

monkeypants

hattoncracker wrote: »

two weeks ago my mum got really ill and I had to call in for two days and head home which is on the other end of the country

Make sure this is counted as personal leave or unpaid leave. It shouldn't be sick leave as you weren't sick.

martingriff

Procrastastudy wrote: »

OP sorry to come in and be the barer of bad news but you have to see this from the employers point of view. Make sure you are in daily contact with your line manager and I would suggest requesting a meeting upon your return. At that meeting I would offer them your permission to check with your previous employer that you had a good attendance record (assuming you do) and that you would be more than willing to extend your probationary period due to them not getting a good picture of the 'real you'. Make sure all your sickness is properly certified.

Realistically most employers say three months or six months but really everyone is on 12 months probation anyway. The only way to play this one is to play Ms Co-operative. It's simply not worth the risk to an employer to be stuck with someone with poor attendance these days. That said - played right there is no need for this to be a massive issue.

Remember the MOST IMPORTANT thing is your health.

EDIT: I'd also offer (if you are 100% sure you'll be recovered) to do some unsocial hours like New Years eve and day if they need cover. Don't offer this if there is even a 0.1% chance of letting them down.

No offence but why should he do all this. If he is sick and the doctor has told him to take time off and take a cert it should be up to the employer if they want to prove he is not sick. It would be worse if he came in had an accident because he was sick or gave it to everyone else.

OP stay in bed take as much time as the doctor says you have to and don't worry about your work. If they are going to let you go as you were genuinely ill or your mother was very sick then I say they are looking for any reason to lay off someone.

It is sickening that an employer can make you feel pressurized that way. I suppose they think now you should be glad and kissing there feet they gave you a job.

martingriff

Eoin wrote: »

For a start, those meetings can be a good idea to make sure that the person is fit to return to work, confirm that there are no factors in work causing it etc - it doesn't have to have a negative or accusatory tone to it.

Also, no - it's not just their problem. For a start, if you're on probation and can be let go very easily. You do not hold the upper hand by any means. Not to mention that disciplinary procedures can be followed for absenteeism, no matter how genuine the illness (if you're probation or not).

As I said earlier, the OP has to look after their health first - but it's not a good idea to assume that there's no chance of any blowback just because you've a sick cert.

If they fire you for been sick witch can happen then it is terrible state of affairs

martingriff

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Cracker, you have a cough and a cold, your not on deaths door, it's Christmas week and your not showing up. I know your sick but if your that sick they'll send you home anyway once you turn up, nobody wants somebody coughing and spluttering on them this time of year. (especially if your in the Hospitality industry?).
If your in a Job that winds down at Christmas you could probably stay at home, but if your on probation in a business that is busy at Christmas and somebody else has to carry the can for you I wouldn't fancy your chances of holding on to the Job.
Go in to work. If you had the flu I'd understand but taking a week off for a cold is a bit much.

Did you read the full OP. Go in and they will tell you go up my bottom. Probation should not come in to it. I am not saying they can't extend it I think that would be ok as long as they explain it. Your sick OP stay home do not go in.

monkeypants

martingriff wrote: »

If they fire you for been sick witch can happen then it is terrible state of affairs

I've had to fire people over absence. Not pleasant, but that was the end result of the process that I had to follow.

martingriff

monkeypants wrote: »

I've had to fire people over absence. Not pleasant, but that was the end result of the process that I had to follow.

What do you mean by absence though. I mean was it some thing they never told you about, had to suspicions that they were not really sick.

monkeypants

martingriff wrote: »

What do you mean by absence though. I mean was it some thing they never told you about, had to suspicions that they were not really sick.

Too many instances of sick leave. Some were certified, but many weren't, which is bizarre as we've a free company doctor who hands out certs like biccies. In the end, too much time away calls into question an employee's suitability for a role. I'm generally fairly understanding, but I cannot ignore the policy for long.

We've a fairly young workforce who tend to view work as an extension of college; that it's optional and a hangover is a genuine illness. It doesn't help when they're friends with a HR manager on Facebook.

A lot of them don't get sick pay, so it doesn't cost me anything, right? Wrong. I have work that needs doing and a job that I can't hire someone else for because the seat is occupied by someone who isn't doing the work.

By the way, in fifteen years of full-time work I've taken zero sick days. I was sent home once in early 2000 because I worked in a call centre and I'd lost my voice completely.

Wanderer2010

monkeypants wrote: »

I've had to fire people over absence. Not pleasant, but that was the end result of the process that I had to follow.

Then i assume your workplace is a non-unionised place? Plus is it you doing the firing, usually that decision is made by a higher up after several warnings etc, could be wrong as I dont know your own case.

As for being sick, if you are out sick, then its not the end of the world, companies are only cracking down on it lately because of recession etc and putting more pressure on people to get more done. These back to work interviews are borderline illegal- if you have a cert signed by the doctor then that should say it all. You were out, it was certified, no questions about how suitable you are to return, adding up the days etc, to be used against you. I would certainly make a complaint if I were treated like that. I know the OP is anxious as they arent in a permanent job, but so many people do it and get away with it so if you cant beat them then at least join them I say.

Wanderer2010

monkeypants wrote: »

By the way, in fifteen years of full-time work I've taken zero sick days. I was sent home once in early 2000 because I worked in a call centre and I'd lost my voice completely.

By the way. absolutely NOBODY cares about this, only you. It doesnt matter if you spent 20years with not one sick day to your name, you dont get any thanks, you dont get paid extra and the cpmpany will continue to function with or without you. Its only a personal gain to you that you have so little sick days; certainly if you think everyone has this goal in mind, then Im sure that has been revised by now

Eoin

martingriff wrote: »

If they fire you for been sick witch can happen then it is terrible state of affairs

It depends on how much sick leave there is. If it's "sick leave" every other Monday after a long session in the boozer, then that's not a terrible state of affairs.

If it's genuine illness, but means that the employee can't do their job that they're paid for, then unfortunately, that's fair enough too - if not pleasant.

If you think that's bad, it's a hell of a lot worse in the States and other places.

martingriff wrote: »

No offence but why should he do all this. If he is sick and the doctor has told him to take time off and take a cert it should be up to the employer if they want to prove he is not sick.

Because the OP is on probation and needs to prove himself if he wants a permanent contract. Someone taking a good bit of sick leave while on probation doesn't look good.

gozunda wrote: »

then subjecting employees to such inquisitions has an negative effect such as creating an atmosphere of fear of reporting in when actually ill. This is counter-productive to a good working environment imo. In fact This thread highlights this issue very well - "Afraid to call in Sick" - is this what employers really want?

There's a tipping point between someone being afraid to ring in sick - which is not good - and employees knowing that they can't take a duvet day and call it sick leave and get away with it whenever they want. The latter is perfectly OK IMO.

And again, the back to work meetings are not necessarily all about inquisitions and can be useful, but I've already gone through that.

monkeypants

These things are done with a HR manager, to keep things fair and equitable. No union involved. All processes followed are documented and agreed to by the employee when beginning work.

I don't mind people taking time off when they're sick. I understand that presenteeism can be a problem too. I just want people to work their 40 hour week, collect their paycheque and get on with their lives. Someone who takes three days off at the first sign of a sniffle is a pain in the ass. I view the back to work interview as a way for me to identify anything else going on in the employee's life that could be causing them hassle and see if I can help in any way.

monkeypants

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

By the way. absolutely NOBODY cares about this, only you. It doesnt matter if you spent 20years with not one sick day to your name, you dont get any thanks, you dont get paid extra and the cpmpany will continue to function with or without you. Its only a personal gain to you that you have so little sick days; certainly if you think everyone has this goal in mind, then Im sure that has been revised by now

It wasn't and isn't a goal, it's just the way that it's worked out. I've never asked or expected anything extra for it, I simply haven't needed to take any sick time. The company will certainly function without me as in those fifteen years I have moved jobs several times.

Wanderer2010

monkeypants wrote: »

These things are done with a HR manager, to keep things fair and equitable. No union involved. All processes followed are documented and agreed to by the employee when beginning work.

I don't mind people taking time off when they're sick. I understand that presenteeism can be a problem too. I just want people to work their 40 hour week, collect their paycheque and get on with their lives. Someone who takes three days off at the first sign of a sniffle is a pain in the ass. I view the back to work interview as a way for me to identify anything else going on in the employee's life that could be causing them hassle and see if I can help in any way.

That sounds a bit dodgy with your union comment every employee is entitled to fair representation and certainly you sound like a real company man. The back to work interview call a spade a spade its a way to induce guilt and make it awkward to go out sick again despite a doctors cert. Companies are known for that kind of bullying sadly

Eoin

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

That sounds a bit dodgy with your union comment every employee is entitled to fair representation and certainly you sound like a real company man. The back to work interview call a spade a spade its a way to induce guilt and make it awkward to go out sick again despite a doctors cert. Companies are known for that kind of bullying sadly

It's not a disciplinary procedure, therefore there is no need for unions to be involved.

Do you agree that employees should not disguise duvet days as sick leave, or do you think that's ok to do?

Fiery mutant

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

That sounds a bit dodgy with your union comment every employee is entitled to fair representation and certainly you sound like a real company man. The back to work interview call a spade a spade its a way to induce guilt and make it awkward to go out sick again despite a doctors cert. Companies are known for that kind of bullying sadly

Doctors certs are handed out like confetti these days. I heard of a instance last year where some journalist visited 10 GP's last year around the country to get sick notes, and made it plain to the GP's that he only wanted the note to get away from work, and of the 10 visited, 7 gave the note without issue, 2 after a bit of a discussion, and only 1 flatly refused.


I have had employees ask for time off for whatever reason, been refused the time off, either because staffing levels at the time didn't allow for it, or for any other reason, and then they turn up for work on the day with a doctors note saying they have to be off for a few days due to such and such. Now obviously this is not always the case, but there is a culture of abusing these notes IMO.

If it was me OP, I'd do everything I can to get up and go in and work, if you are really that sick, they will send you home.

monkeypants

monkeypants wrote: »

We've a fairly young workforce who tend to view work as an extension of college; that it's optional and a hangover is a genuine illness. It doesn't help when they're friends with a HR manager on Facebook.

This says so much about 2012.

monkeypants

Eoin wrote: »

It's not a disciplinary procedure, therefore there is no need for unions to be involved.

Exactly. For disciplinary matters, the employee can bring whatever representation they wish. One brought a solicitor once, for all the use it was.

qwertypop

hattoncracker wrote: »

Yeah, I know.. I'll be having a meeting if I go back tomorrow-but I'm afraid to go back tomorrow in case it makes me worse and I have to call in Thursday or Friday. Aaah!! I'm a bit torn, tbh. If I knew that they didn't think I was taking the piss then I'd be ok with it. But I don't know. I'm already working Christmas Eve, the 27th and the 28th (my birthday), and NYE so it's not like I don't have any anti-social hours ahead of me!

I know that your 100 percent sick. But the timing stinks. The week of Xmas and your birthday thrown in as well. There going to think your on the piss. I'd go in to work sick and let them send you home or else collapse at the water cooler. Sure way of getting a week off

imitation

In fairness to the employer, if the company has above a couple of dozen employees they have probably seen a few hypercondriacs and a few people fond of pulling sickies after benders (I think we have a reputation as a nation for it at this stage). I know after working for a few short years I have definitely seen a few cases of it. At the end of the day, the business has to turn a profit and somebody dropping out on a regular basis is extremely disruptive.

I think it was a good thing the employer mentioned it to you, better than being told at the end of your probation, but it was really misfortunate you caught a bad flu ! I think as others have said you have to take the sick time, but when your ready to come back, bring in the doctors cert and any other evidence you have and clear the air with them and let them know its not going to be a regular thing. (at same time, everybody gets sick, and we have obligations to other people)

Wanderer2010

monkeypants wrote: »

Exactly. For disciplinary matters, the employee can bring whatever representation they wish. One brought a solicitor once, for all the use it was.

Wow, I would hate to be working under you. Your anti-union views are very obvious and your comment about the solicitor being no good is borderline bullying. You say you have fired people for absenses, of course thats a disciplinary issue and the employee has the right of appeal and a union rep. In most normal companies, if the absences are an issue, they are given a verbal warning, then written etc until all avenues are exhausted. All these meetings are done with a rep, should the employee want one. Its not a case of "Oh you are out a lot, come in here and we fire you"! You are the one who was saying you are hardly ever sick, I think you are expecting the same standards from your employees, which is unfair. People get sick, they have lives, things happen. Thats life and employee absense is just a fact of working life.

Mrs OBumble

Deleted User wrote: »

This says so much about 2012.

It's nothing new. When I worked in the fast-food industry nearly 30 years ago, in a store with lots of students, the situation was much the same. If you're managing youngsters, you need to hard-assed and teach them workplace discipline, or they end up having food fights in the kitchen, thinking that serving 51% of the customers well is good enough, and suchlike.

With slightly older people, the workforce usually has more professional maturity, so the way for managers to get performance is lighten up considerably.

smcgiff

Wow. Just wow. Very little credence is given to doctor notes these days, and for good reason. Yet, the suggestion here is that an employer should report doctors to the medical council. Do you not think owners/managers have anything better to do?

Doctor certs have to be accepted at all times as there are insurance implications.

However, do the ones on here that are accusing managers of bullying accept that employees (quite a lot actually) take the piss and abuse employment protection laws.

A lot of advice here is ignoring the op being on probation. A lot of good advice has been given to the op as to how he should manage the situation if he does need to call in sick.

One final point re the op - sickness is relative and open to exaggeration. The op mentions that only 10% of employees go from probation to permanent contracts. This makes no sense. You cannot be kept on probation indefinitely, and to let go 90% of staff would be VERY inefficient

Wanderer2010

smcgiff wrote: »

Wow. Just wow. Very little credence is given to doctor notes these days, and for good reason. Yet, the suggestion here is that an employer should report doctors to the medical council. Do you not think owners/managers have anything better to do?

Doctor certs have to be accepted at all times as there are insurance implications.

However, do the ones on here that are accusing managers of bullying accept that employees (quite a lot actually) take the piss and abuse employment protection laws.

A lot of advice here is ignoring the op being on probation. A lot of good advice has been given to the op as to how he should manage the situation if he does need to call in sick.

One final point re the op - sickness is relative and open to exaggeration. The op mentions that only 10% of employees go from probation to permanent contracts. This makes no sense. You cannot be kept on probation indefinitely, and to let go 90% of staff would be VERY inefficient

I agree with your point that a lot of staff do abuse sick leave but at the end of the day if you have a medical cert thats the end of it, its signed off and you are excused for the day/week etc. Back to work interviews are only appropriate for people who have been out for several weeks or months with a serious injury or stress leave. I have had a few of them and even the way they are structured is designed as a kind of telling off not to do it again- they ask you how many days so far you have taken off, why exactly you were sick etc, all info thats already on the cert.

Its bullying plain and simple and designed to drop a huge hint about not taking any time off again or at the very least reconsider the length of time off. And company doctors are even worse for this because they want all employees back to work as soon as possible so will downplay any recovery time or adjustments needed for your work environment for people who need to be eased back into work. :rolleyes: