Dying aspen trees sound alarm for world's forests

Oldtree

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21628944.400-dying-aspen-trees-sound-alarm-for-worlds-forests.html

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21628924.400-reckless-forest-plants-living-on-the-edge.html

oh feckko, 70% trees in both moist and arid forests in trouble

periodictable

Oldtree wrote: »

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21628944.400-dying-aspen-trees-sound-alarm-for-worlds-forests.html

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21628924.400-reckless-forest-plants-living-on-the-edge.html

oh feckko, 70% trees in both moist and arid forests in trouble

Bought some of this seed from the US-hope it grows.

Oldtree

Is there no irish seed available for sale or to collect, or even UK seed, may be better than US?

these could maby help if you are stuck:
http://www.wildflowers.ie/gardening/tree_and_shrub_species.htm

That aside the best thing about aspen is the sound the leaves make in the summer, its like a waterfall, lovely.

periodictable

Oldtree wrote: »

Is there no irish seed available for sale or to collect, or even UK seed, may be better than US?

these could maby help if you are stuck:
http://www.wildflowers.ie/gardening/tree_and_shrub_species.htm

That aside the best thing about aspen is the sound the leaves make in the summer, its like a waterfall, lovely.

this is the american aspen Populus tremuloides-plenty of the native stuff around. What I like about the N American one is the shining white bark and the fall coloring

Oldtree

More bad news for trees:

"death rates have increased alarmingly among trees between 100 and 300 years old"

http://www.friendsoftheirishenvironment.net/paperstoday/index.php?do=paperstoday&action=view&id=15233

manjou

Oldtree wrote: »

More bad news for trees:

"death rates have increased alarmingly among trees between 100 and 300 years old"

http://www.friendsoftheirishenvironment.net/paperstoday/index.php?do=paperstoday&action=view&id=15233

I was looking round my place for the last year. Its an old estate and there are lots of old trees around it.However there are alot of them needing replaceing and this has not been done over the last 50 60 years only natural regeneration in some places.So maybe the problem is that we have lost the knowhow or ability to manage the trees especially older ones as they seem to last forever and if new ones are not being planted to replace them they leave a big gap when they are gone.
My place will look terrible for a long time if i was to knock and replace all trees in one go. So i will try and do it gradually and teach next generation to appreciate the trees amd maybe in 100 to150 years they will enjoy them as much as i do sitting under a big oak or beach watchinh the world go by.

Oldtree

happy to give you advice (or opinion) on any aspect of your grounds. It is so important for older trees to be preserved and you manage your grounds for the present and future landscape too.

When you say replacing do you mean they are creating a public hazard or that the trees are in decline?

manjou

Oldtree wrote: »

happy to give you advice (or opinion) on any aspect of your grounds. It is so important for older trees to be preserved and you manage your grounds for the present and future landscape too.

When you say replacing do you mean they are creating a public hazard or that the trees are in decline?

Some of the trees are in decline. The point i was trying to make was that if you look around there are alot of older trees about in hedges etc and not enough young trees comming along and at some point you get alot of trees that need replaceing and no young trees to replace them. Maybe this is what is happening all around the world that the tree population is just getting older.This may be what is wrong with regard to the aspen trees .

Autonomous Cowherd

Has anyone else ever noticed that Irish people ( in general..not YOU! dear God, not You!) seem to have an underdeveloped appreciation of trees? Unless they have a saw in their hands, that is? I am often astonished at the amount of indiscriminate tree cutting that goes on in this country, and even more so since the recession has been biting....people stocking up on firewood, but never replanting.
I have planted over 300 trees in my garden ..I adore trees. I have a few Aspen for their beautiful sound in the wind. As a country we are very much in the lower part of the forested league.. http://www.mongabay.com/deforestation_pcover.htm
something I cannot understand.
We could be growing fruit- producing trees to beat the band. Look at the orchards of Northern Ireland. While we're at it, look at the noticeable change once one crosses the border at all...we go from the scrubby goat willows and opportunistic birch and ash (all beautiful in their own rights) to the majestic oaks and chestnuts and beech of Northern country roads. (Planters anyone? ;p)I know poverty strips a country of its trees, but that excuse became old a very long time ago.
Ach, stop me before i rips out me hair...

periodictable

It's historical.
Also people have to make a living from the land and this can be evidenced from the fact that there was a massive surge in farmer planting of land when 20 year premia were introduced.
To my mind, one of the problems with our forest/agricultural advisors is the dearth of imagination amongst them. This in part stems from a UCD forestry education-it may have broadened since I went through the forestry course) but back then it was an insular self-contained unit, which frowned on any holistic approach to forestry. There was no aesthetic appreciation encouraged for trees and no encouragement for any type of amenity planting.
Sadly there now comes on the scene a new mindset which rejects the introduction of any non-native broadleaves, thereby jettisoning the economic or aesthetic potential they can bring to land owners and the countryside.
I would like to see a phasing out of government subsidies for farming on land that is marginal for agriculture, ie wet mineral soils. A great cover of mixed conifers could be achieved with large pockets of native broadleaves linked by corridors centered on hedgerows and expanded 15-20 m each side. On mountains, ravines could be pit planted with rowan, oak, hazel and crataegus and left to self thin. Hedgerows ought to be planted with specimen lime, walnut, ash, cherry et al-the list is almost inexhaustible. Up to 50% forest cover could be achieved.
I suppose an upside of the wet year we have had is the interest expressed by farmers in converting some or more of their land to forestry.

Autonomous Cowherd

periodictable wrote: »

It's historical.
Also people have to make a living from the land and this can be evidenced from the fact that there was a massive surge in farmer planting of land when 20 year premia were introduced.
To my mind, one of the problems with our forest/agricultural advisors is the dearth of imagination amongst them. This in part stems from a UCD forestry education-it may have broadened since I went through the forestry course) but back then it was an insular self-contained unit, which frowned on any holistic approach to forestry. There was no aesthetic appreciation encouraged for trees and no encouragement for any type of amenity planting.
Sadly there now comes on the scene a new mindset which rejects the introduction of any non-native broadleaves, thereby jettisoning the economic or aesthetic potential they can bring to land owners and the countryside.
I would like to see a phasing out of government subsidies for farming on land that is marginal for agriculture, ie wet mineral soils. A great cover of mixed conifers could be achieved with large pockets of native broadleaves linked by corridors centered on hedgerows and expanded 15-20 m each side. On mountains, ravines could be pit planted with rowan, oak, hazel and crataegus and left to self thin. Hedgerows ought to be planted with specimen lime, walnut, ash, cherry et al-the list is almost inexhaustible. Up to 50% forest cover could be achieved.
I suppose an upside of the wet year we have had is the interest expressed by farmers in converting some or more of their land to forestry.

Thank You Periodictable for that very interesting summation of the state of Irish forestry. And do please hurry up and become the Minister for Future Forests asap because I like (very much) those ideas of yours. 50% forest cover would be frankly DELICIOUS!!!

Oldtree

Why do people need to be paid to plant a few trees on their land? There appears to my eye to be no love of trees here. I try to instill a interest in trees but appear to be seen as an eco warrior.

That was the most starteling thing when I moved back from england a decade or so ago was the lack of trees in the landscape. The planting of grant aided trees is mostly sitka, a very short rotation with rewards within a lifetime, no generational planting and a myriad of tiny non commercial coups blotting the landscape.

I have spoken to a number of older farmers who are of the opinion that trees compete with grass. Studies have proved this to be untrue and that trees/hedgerows can in fact add to the end weight of their animals, by providing shelter, organic matter to the soil with leaves shed and dont compete with grass as tree roots are at a deeper level than grass roots. I have brought this to their attention but they remained unconvinced. I understand this as their margins and time are so tight would you take the risk?

i am of the opinion that grant aid will bring about the doom of any enterprise, look what has finally happened to the sheep and cattle sector they could not survive without grant aid. It appears that trees will not be planted unless the government (taxpayer) pays for it and something for nothing does not lead to appreciation nor caring nor love.

periodictable

The reality is that most small farmers depend on subsidies to survive-many farmers are only part time farmers, having by necessity to work off farm to support themselves.
The 20 year premium is an income support until the crop generates enough income to replace the premium. After that farmers are on their own. During the CAP reform of the 80s it was seen as cheaper in the long run to subsidize afforestation so as to 1. encourage farmer forestry, 2. self sufficiency in timber, and 3. it was cheaper than subsidizing any livestock enterprise.
A I said before, we need to look at land use-just because someone doesn't like the idea of planting, that should not mean we pay them to produce beef or sheep instead when they could produce good timber or even diversify into something more suited to the land. Forestry needs to be looked too as a multifaceted opportunity, with not just timber production but as a multiple use exercise. People need to think outside the box, and even I'd venture that adjoining farmers should pool resources, farm the better land, and jointly plant the rest. But then this is Ireland...I think it will take another generation to break the old mindsets

Oldtree

periodictable wrote: »

I think it will take another generation to break the old mindsets

You're thinking positively then
I read somewhere that it takes 3 generations to break a mindset,
usually accomplished by breeding out.... :rolleyes:

manjou

Oldtree wrote: »

You're thinking positively then
I read somewhere that it takes 3 generations to break a mindset,
usually accomplished by breeding out.... :rolleyes:

Too true.Planted the worst 60 acres in 97 and 2001 basically anywhere i could not work a tractor as was either to wet or rocky people thought we were mad.Now seeing the price of timber especially firewood.Was thinking of putting rest of land into forestry as is better land and would have high growth rates for sitka.Would combine sitka with other hardwoods to create long term forestry buisnrss over years.Told a few people and there reaction was it was sacrilage planting good land.Think if they removed the 1926 act about once in forestry always in forestry people might look at it as a crop rather than a loss of land .

periodictable

Things changing for sure- political allegiances disintegrating, divorce entailing land sales, emigrants seeing how the other half lives and works, and the sight of neighbors, once sneered at for planting their land, enjoying the windfall with timber prices at shy high levels, and becoming self sufficient in heating fuel.
I've recently had a couple who never entertained planting under any circumstances, now confide in me they they intend to plant the whole farm and retire to Spain to live off the premia!
What would really help is a little political vision, and for the technocrats of the Forest Service to show some of the imagination of their predecessors in the 80s and 90s who helped to push through and support the shift towards building a private forest ownership base.