So its Bliain na Gaeilge now is it.

opti0nal

Herb Powell wrote: »

But you were giving out about this?????!!!??

Ah, you just didn't get the joke.

Herb Powell wrote: »

Except it's actually legislated for in our constitution. And if 1.77 million people say on the census that they speak Irish, do you think it's ok for the government to just ignore that?

It's a throwback to the de Valera era. didn't we once have a clause about the 'special position of the Catholic Church'. Irish is now in a similar position.

Years of what was accepted without question must be questioned.

LordSutch

Cliste wrote: »

... and actually looking at the figures shows that nearly 190,000 people speak Irish very regularly (at least once a week).

What bothers me about this, is the elastic meaning of 'speak". the figures say that nearly 190,000 people speak Irish, but what does 'speak' mean?

Personally I suspect that many of those 190,000 only have the cupla focal, and that they aspire to speak/converse in full blown conversations in Irish, but they can't. I actually know people who claim to speak Irish, but its only in the most rudamentary way! < should the figures show that they 'speak' Irish???

I can speak Irish too in a very basic fashion (oscail on doras etc etc), but I could never hold a meaningful conversation in Irish, so do I say Yes I do speak Irish, or not :cool:

9959

Blackjack wrote: »

Just wondering how an entire body of commuters (100%) can make up greater than the sum of said commuters (107%). Then again, your ability to be offended by paint on the road is quite odd too.

As regards whether Irish language speakers could or could not understand the words bus lane or not, I'm sure the blue signage to the left of the bus lane would give it away to speakers in all languages. And indeed most if not all Irish speakers will understand what bus lane means, as will most if not all of those who are mono linguistically English speaking in this country will understand that "Lána bus" is a bus lane.
Clearly you figured this much out, I'm sure most others have too.

As regards Irish language zealotry, it seems there are plenty of English language zealotry around here too. No doubt this will have gone to a vote in the Dublin city council to see whether to adopt the Irish language to describe a specific traffic lane. Again, this is democracy in action. Should you object to this, you could either take it up with the council, or see if you could gather together some followers and see if you can perhaps get on the council yourself?.

I never knew that 107% was greater than 100%, thanks for pointing that out so adroitly.
Message to self: must not exaggerate to make a point in future for fear of being misunderstood.

If I were to take your advice and become a councillor, then believe me, Bus Lane/ Lana Bus would come way down on my list of priorities.
The Irish Language question has never come between me and my sleep, I've lived quite happily in Dublin, and through my work, travelled the length and breadth of this country without ever once hearing a conversation being conducted 'As Gaelige', you can choose to believe me or not, but I tell you now, it's the truth.

My use of the word 'zealotry' seems to have pushed a few buttons on this thread, just to clarify, I don't believe for one minute that all - or even a majority - of Irish Language speakers are zealots - but I do believe, as in most politcal/cultural movements, that the zealots among your number are extremely harmful to your cause, you (second person plural) may not want to do your dirty washing in public, but it would be refreshing to see some critical self-analysis amongst your own ranks in order to 'weed out' or challange the adversarial nature of your 'squeaky wheels', they may get the oil, but ultimately their 'Lana Bus' - let's not say zealotry but rather pettiness - only serves to alienate and disengage the very people with whom you would hope to persuade to your cause.

You're right in saying that English speakers know what 'Lana Bus' means, as I am right in saying that Irish speakers know the meaning of 'Bus Lane', if English speakers and Irish speakers were mutually exclusive groups then we might have a real practical problem to solve, now correct me if I'm wrong, but my guess is that approximately 100% (note how I didn't use 107%) of Irish speakers can speak, read and write English, which leads me to believe that 'the Irish Language movement' may have a variety of issues on its list of aims and aspirations, but clear communication - the primary use of language - doesn't seem to be one of them, if there are any monolingual Irish speakers left, then yes I do agree that they have a constitutional right for state services to be provided 'As Gaelige', or even free English lessons if requested.
So let's be honest and admit that the English/Irish language debate is one of a theoretical nature, and that 'Lana Bus' is not a practical solution to a practical problem, but rather a deliberate, some might argue provocative, flexing of constitutional muscle, hence the bemusement of the capital's population on seeing the words 'Bus Lane' being literally burned off the road in order to make way for its Irish equivalent.

Happy New Year to all speakers of Irish, English, Polish, Chinese (Mandarin and Cantonese), Romanian and even Manx!

....but as I stated previously, NOT Esperanto, as I firmly believe that some its speakers and adherents are only using the language as a 'Trojan Horse' for their post-colonial, pan-nationalistic aims!
One must remain ever vigilant.

Grudaire

LordSutch wrote: »

What bothers me about this, is the elastic meaning of 'speak". the figures say that nearly 190,000 people speak Irish, but what does 'speak' mean?

Personally I suspect that many of those 190,000 only have the cupla focal, and that they aspire to speak/converse in full blown conversations in Irish, but they can't. I actually know people who claim to speak Irish, but its only in the most rudamentary way! < should the figures show that they 'speak' Irish???

I can speak Irish too in a very basic fashion (oscail on doras etc etc), but I could never hold a meaningful conversation in Irish, so do I say Yes I do speak Irish, or not :cool:

I fully accept what you're saying here that the figures are flawed, But you're ignoring my point completely!

You're questioning the figures for one side of the discussion but not for your own side... can you not realise that?

Personally I would guess if people speak once a week it is at something like a Ciorcal Comhrá - which would imply that they are at least fluent enough to converse in Irish. Daily is a very definite statement, and just because someone is fluent doesn't mean they necessarily have the opportunity to speak Irish on a daily basis.

Grudaire

Grayson wrote: »

I have no problem with the cost of providing these services being paid for only by irish speakers.
see, you're on a huge discussion board and your discussing this in english. that's because you speak english as does every single irish person.
The government has an obligation to provide you with services in a language you understand. Not in whatever language you happen to decide.
Because there are just as many taxpaying polish people in ireland than there are irish. Or should we only limit ourselves to languages natively spoken? In which case should we speak Pavee?

But some services are provided in Polish!

Also there are not as many "taxpaying polish people in ireland than there are irish."
there are not as many "taxpaying polish people in ireland than there are irish speakers."
there are however more "taxpaying polish people in ireland than there are daily irish speakers."

The fact is a significant amount of Irish people (don't mind what you see on b.ie!) think that the state should support the Irish language for cultural and equality purposes. Thus the legislation and funding is where it is!

opti0nal

Cliste wrote: »

The fact is a significant amount of Irish people (don't mind what you see on b.ie!) think that the state should support the Irish language for cultural and equality purposes.

How is forcing English-speaking children to learn Irish an equality thing? How are Irish speakers discriminated against when no Irish-speaking doctor is available in a public hospital, but not discriminated against if the same thing happens in a private hospital?

Certainly some cultural funding should be provided, say, on a level of whatever we give to Rugby, but the existing subsidies, direct and hidden are monstrous.

Cliste wrote: »

Personally I would guess if people speak once a week it is at something like a Ciorcal Comhrá - which would imply that they are at least fluent enough to converse in Irish.

It should be a simple matter for those 'Ciorcal Comhrá' to provide statistics?

Grudaire

opti0nal wrote: »

Certainly some cultural funding should be provided, say, on a level of whatever we give to Rugby, but the existing subsidies, direct and hidden are monstrous.

Trolling troll is trolling?

opti0nal wrote: »

It should be a simple matter for those 'Ciorcal Comhrá' to provide statistics?

Do you understand how census's work?

And how examples work?


Nah actually fcuk this.. I vote to Atari Jaguar the fluck away from this thread. Slán

Grayson

Cliste wrote: »

I fully accept what you're saying here that the figures are flawed, But you're ignoring my point completely!

You're questioning the figures for one side of the discussion but not for your own side... can you not realise that?

Personally I would guess if people speak once a week it is at something like a Ciorcal Comhrá - which would imply that they are at least fluent enough to converse in Irish. Daily is a very definite statement, and just because someone is fluent doesn't mean they necessarily have the opportunity to speak Irish on a daily basis.

I have no idea what that means?

LordSutch

Indeed, who, or what is a Ciorcal Comhrá? please explain.

Thanks in advance.

LordSutch

LordSutch wrote: »

Indeed, who, or what is a Ciorcal Comhrá? please explain.

Thanks in advance.

Conversation circle...

mackerski

K4t wrote: »

A country without a language is a country without a soul...A language without a country is a language without a soul.

This country has more than one language. Hooray for us, extra soul!

opti0nal

Cliste wrote: »

Trolling troll is trolling?

Good choice of words. You could compare the subjugation of children to years of forced Irish lessons to having their cultural souls battered by a troll.

Cliste wrote: »

Do you understand how census's work?

They don't check on the accuracy of people's answers to questions about use of Irish?

Cliste wrote: »

And how examples work?

You mean like hypothetical dilemmas in hospitals when confronted by Irish speakers?

Cliste wrote: »

Nah actually fcuk this.. I vote to Atari Jaguar the fluck away from this thread. Slán

It's the failure to engage with Irish society on equal and respectful terms that is leading to the demise of Irish speaking.

Bazzo

opti0nal wrote: »

A: The Government: compulsory Irish lessons for native English-speakers at school.

You stated:
I think it's fair to ask you if forcing people to speak Irish is part of what you mean by 'guarded and protected'.

I don't know about you, but when I went to school a lot of stuff was compulsory. Including a continental language.

opti0nal

Bazzo wrote: »

I don't know about you, but when I went to school a lot of stuff was compulsory. Including a continental language.

Not in the same sense as Irish was & is compulsory. Isn't what you say a bit like saying that children were beaten at schools, therefore beating children is OK?

Bazzo

opti0nal wrote: »

Not in the same sense as Irish was & is compulsory. Isn't what you say a bit like saying that children were beaten at schools, therefore beating children is OK?

No, I don't think it's a bit like saying that, as making aspects of education compulsory and beating a child aren't comparable situations.

The point I was making was that many aspects of education are compulsory, with good reason, and at what point does it become unfair to 'force' an educational aspect on them?

Herb Powell

9959 wrote: »

If I were to take your advice and become a councillor, then believe me, Bus Lane/ Lana Bus would come way down on my list of priorities.
The Irish Language question has never come between me and my sleep, I've lived quite happily in Dublin, and through my work, travelled the length and breadth of this country without ever once hearing a conversation being conducted 'As Gaelige', you can choose to believe me or not, but I tell you now, it's the truth.

So why is it suddenly such a massive issue?

opti0nal wrote: »

It's the failure to engage with Irish society on equal and respectful terms that is leading to the demise of Irish speaking.

To be fair about it, you have been pretty condescending and disrespectful from the start of this thread.

opti0nal

Bazzo wrote: »

The point I was making was that many aspects of education are compulsory, with good reason...

What's the good reason for making Irish lessons compulsory?

Bazzo wrote: »

... and at what point does it become unfair to 'force' an educational aspect on them?

Thank you for asking: When there's no good reason. When the educational benefit is negligible.When the outcome does not justify the expense, pain and effort?

Bazzo

opti0nal wrote: »

What's the good reason for making Irish lessons compulsory?

Thank you for asking: When there's no good reason. When the educational benefit is negligible.When the outcome does not justify the expense, pain and effort?

The reason Irish is currently compulsory is because it is deemed to be an important aspect of our cultural identity(something which every first world nation strives to upkeep through their education systems) and the bodies we have in place for the upkeep of our cultural identity have deemed Irish important enough to be part of the education system.

The good reason for making education compulsory is obvious by the way, a child is not mature enough to make such large impacting decisions about their education. If education wasn't compulsory you would find most children and teenagers out playing/hanging around with friends rather than attending school.

9959

Herb Powell wrote: »

So why is it suddenly such a massive issue?

I don't believe that it is a massive issue, if you agree, then we might be able to continue the discourse without rancour.
Happy days!

opti0nal

Bazzo wrote: »

The reason Irish is currently compulsory is because it is deemed to be an important aspect of our cultural identity

This sounds like propaganda. What is the net outcome of subjecting English-speaking children to 13 years of compulsory Irish lessons? Could we achieve the same outcome (for the children) that we get at present with much less cost and effort? For example, by handing them a card with the 'cupla focal' on it when they leave school. It would save a lot of time and effort. 13 years - and just a few phrases are ever used occasionally. Think about it - it's mad.

Bazzo wrote: »

The good reason for making education compulsory is obvious by the way, a child is not mature enough to make such large impacting decisions about their education.

That's only a good reason if you are more interested preserving the jobs of Irish language teachers than in the welfare of the child. There's nothing 'good' about that reason. Not learning Irish will have minimal impact on the child. A 'good' reason is child-centric. And the child's parents: you ignored them and their wishes: why? Are they as incompetent as the children?

Bazzo

opti0nal wrote: »

This sounds like propaganda. What is the net outcome of subjecting English-speaking children to 13 years of compulsory Irish lessons? Could we achieve the same outcome (for the children) that we get at present with much less cost and effort? For example, by handing them a card with the 'cupla focal' on it when they leave school. It would save a lot of time and effort. 13 years - and just a few phrases are ever used occasionally. Think about it - it's mad.

That's only a good reason if you are more interested preserving the jobs of Irish language teachers than in the welfare of the child. There's nothing 'good' about that reason. Not learning Irish will have minimal impact on the child. A 'good' reason is child-centric. And the child's parents: you ignored them and their wishes: why? Are they as incompetent as the children?

Saying that something "sounds like propaganda" isn't a valid arguement, by the way, especially as I'm not pushing any particular political agenda, just sharing a belief that a language is an important part of the nation's cultural identity.

I agree that Irish being taught as it is is useless to the majority of students by the way, but I see that as a reason to overhaul the archaic way in which it is taught and to engage children in its history and cultural importance, not as an excuse to abolish it and confine it to a thing of the past.

opti0nal

Bazzo wrote: »

just sharing a belief that a language is an important part of the nation's cultural identity.

English is far more important than Irish and is central to our cultural identity whereas Irish-speaking is now peripheral to it. There must surely be better ways to promote Irish, than forcing children to speak it.

Bazzo wrote: »

...but I see that as a reason to overhaul the archaic way in which it is taught and to engage children in its history and cultural importance, not as an excuse to abolish it and confine it to a thing of the past.

Nobody is suggesting abolishing Irish language lessons, merely acknowledging that the reason why children don't speak Irish is because they don't want to. It's nothing to do with teaching methods. Children and their parents should be able to choose.

You've not said why parents should be excluded from decisions about their children's linguistic education.

Bazzo

opti0nal wrote: »

English is far more important than Irish and is central to our cultural identity whereas Irish-speaking is now peripheral to it. There must surely be better ways to promote Irish, than forcing children to speak it.

Nobody is suggesting abolishing Irish language lessons, merely acknowledging that the reason why children don't speak Irish is because they don't want to. It's nothing to do with teaching methods. Children and their parents should be able to choose.

You've not said why parents should be excluded from decisions about their children's linguistic education.

I don't have a problem with parents having a say, I assumed from your comments on the lack of any benefit of Irish and it only existing to give Irish teachers a jobthat you wished to remove it as a subject in public education, something that I believe would kill it before its time.

Again, saying that children don't do something because they don't want to isn't something I'd agree with. If that were the case children would never go to bed, eat their vegetables or do homework. The onus is on society and their parents to decide what is for the best for them and make them do it. If you ask me, teaching Irish as if it's their first language and spoken every day is actively discouraging the speaking of it. Of course a 15 year old isn't going to he interested in reading poetry in Irish that's over a hundred years old. But this is a flaw with the current teaching method, and not am indication that Irish is either useless or dead.

LordSutch

Bazzo wrote: »

The reason Irish is currently compulsory is because it is deemed to be an important aspect of our cultural identity (something which every first world nation strives to upkeep through their education systems) and the bodies we have in place for the upkeep of our cultural identity have deemed Irish important enough to be part of the education system.

...because it is deemed to be an important aspect of our cultural identity...

Sucessive generations of Irish school children since 1922 have not learnt to speak Irish (fully converse in Irish), in any meaningful way, hence the general Irish populous is still not speaking Irish to any great extent (after eight/nine decades of cultural identity), yes there are pockets of Irish speakers, and yes, the Irish lobby is in full flow in the run up to 2016, but the question just has to be asked, do Irish people really want to speak Irish (as their 1st language) in this day and age? and do they/we really see Irish as being important enough, as to be a living breathing part of our cultural identity en masse?

I wish Bliain na Gaeilge well, but I can't see it being a major success.

pawrick

It will have as much benefit to the Irish Language as Rolf Harris playing the saw did for the growth in sales of saws

An Coilean

opti0nal wrote: »

English is far more important than Irish and is central to our cultural identity whereas Irish-speaking is now peripheral to it. There must surely be better ways to promote Irish, than forcing children to speak it.

Nobody is suggesting abolishing Irish language lessons, merely acknowledging that the reason why children don't speak Irish is because they don't want to. It's nothing to do with teaching methods. Children and their parents should be able to choose.

You've not said why parents should be excluded from decisions about their children's linguistic education.

So you think that most non-Irish speakers chose before they even got to school that Irish was not for them?

Maybe that's not what your saying but its hard to see another interpretation if its got nothing to do with how its taught, as you say. If this is true, then 90%+ of Irish people chose at a very young age that they will not speak Irish.
Now assuming that this is actually the case, it does raise the question of how Gaelscoils have as near as makes no difference 100% success rate at teaching kids to speak Irish, I mean yes, given that their parents choose to send them there, there is a good chance that the children will be better disposed to learning the language, but people who send their kids to a Gaelscoil are not a closed off community separate from the rest of the population, they are just ordinary Irish people with almost nothing to distinguish them from the population at large, in the vast majority of cases the parents don't have Irish, and we hear so often that many of them are not sending their kids to a Gaelscoil because of Irish, but because of elitism, racism, convenience and many other motives other than interest in the language. So given this, why do their kids almost as one seem to have taken a different choice to the rest of the population? It's very strange you have to admit given that they must have taken the choice before they even came into contact with each other at school.

opti0nal

An Coilean wrote: »

So you think that most non-Irish speakers chose before they even got to school that Irish was not for them?

They're brought up in English-speaking households and during their educational years, the only time they speak Irish is when forced to do so. Once they leave school, they don't speak Irish. That would seem to indicate that they don't want to speak Irish and never did. Even if they do come out with 'cupla focal' to impress their foreign friends, it is grossly excessive to subject them to years of forced lessons to achieve this outcome.

An Coilean wrote: »

Now assuming that this is actually the case, it does raise the question of how Gaelscoils have as near as makes no difference 100% success rate at teaching kids to speak Irish...... It's very strange you have to admit given that they must have taken the choice before they even came into contact with each other at school.

The children's parents have taken the decision for them. There is obviously a demand from some people for Irish-medium education. We don't know if the children will continue to use Irish once they've left Irish-medium education or if it results in a better outcome for children. We don't know if the extra expense has any benefit for society. But, it is acceptable for parents to choose the child's medium of education.

What's wrong with the idea of allowing parents to choose whether or not children are subjected to Irish lessons? Why not reduce the massive amount of time spent on teaching 'cupla focal'?

Why is the maintenance of compulsion/coercion so important to you?

An Coilean

opti0nal wrote: »

They're brought up in English-speaking households and during their educational years, the only time they speak Irish is when forced to do so. Once they leave school, they don't speak Irish. That would seem to indicate that they don't want to speak Irish and never did. Even if they do come out with 'cupla focal' to impress their foreign friends, it is grossly excessive to subject them to years of forced lessons to achieve this outcome.

The children's parents have taken the decision for them. There is obviously a demand from some people for Irish-medium education. We don't know if the children will continue to use Irish once they've left Irish-medium education or if it results in a better outcome for children. We don't know if the extra expense has any benefit for society. But, it is acceptable for parents to choose the child's medium of education.

What's wrong with the idea of allowing parents to choose whether or not children are subjected to Irish lessons? Why not reduce the massive amount of time spent on teaching 'cupla focal'?

Why is the maintenance of compulsion/coercion so important to you?

You suggest that the people not speaking Irish once they leave school shows that they 'don't want to speak Irish and never did'.
As far as I can make out, the basis of your argument is that Irish children don't want to speak Irish, that this is a decision they come to even before they get to school and because of this they won't learn Irish no matter how its taught, right?

I would suggest that someone not speaking a language does not show that you don't want to. I think we can all agree that if you cant speak a language then you won't speak it, weather you would like to or not.
The question then becomes why someone can't speak the language.
There is the suggestion that if someone wants to speak Irish, then they will, and if they don't then they don't want to simple as.
But the thing is, its not nearly as simple as that.
Learning a language is hard, it requires time, money, motivation and opportunity. For the average Irish child, when it comes to learning Irish in school, several factors are against them learning it beyond a low level of ability.
First off time is against them, over the whole of the education system, the student will not get enough class time to gain more than a basic ability in the language.
Money is less of an issue, though things outside of school that would help to increase their ability to speak Irish such as a summer camp in the Gaeltacht are not cheap.
Motivation in an educational context = expectancy X value. That is how well the student expects to do and how they value what they are learning. This is not something that is solely innate to the child, teachers have a huge role to play in this area. Modern educational best practice says that teachers must motivate their class to learn in every lesson, how a teacher does this makes the difference in how students perform.
Opportunity is another factor that effects how well you learn a language, and this is something that is lacking when it comes to learning Irish. Outside the classroom is it difficult to use the Irish you have learned.

Depending on these factors someone might arrive into a school well disposed to learning Irish and never succeed in learning the language beyond a Cúpla Focal. On the other hand, someone could arrive into a school with no interest in Irish at all and become a fluent and active Irish speaker by the time they leave.

opti0nal

An Coilean wrote: »

You suggest that the people not speaking Irish once they leave school shows that they 'don't want to speak Irish and never did'.
......

The educational system has 13 years to turn hardened English speakers into Irish speakers. Even the Gardai get just 24 hours to make people talk.

An Coilean

opti0nal wrote: »

The educational system has 13 years to turn hardened English speakers into Irish speakers. Even the Gardai get just 24 hours to make people talk.

I'll take it you are unable to counter the points I put forward in my post then.

opti0nal

An Coilean wrote: »

I'll take it you are unable to counter the points I put forward in my post then.

Your fanciful thoughts that inside every English speaker is an Irish speaker yearning to get out? I ignored them as they're a distraction from the core issue which is whether or it its is right to force people to speak Irish. An issue, which I think you find inconvenient.

Derpington95

Although I'd like to see more people speaking irish regularly as it is part of our heritage and history, These bliain na gaeilge things never really catch on and are kinda cheesey to be honest. The way I'm being taught Irish right now isn't the best way of getting people to enjoy speaking their native language. With too much focus on silly things like poetry and analysing terrible movies like caca milis my friends and classmates struggle heavily and end up hating the language. I'm lucky enough to be fluent (in my opinion and I actually enjoy speaking irish unlike most young people my age:L These things like seachtain na gaeilge seem good on paper but to be honest they never take off as people don't feel compelled to speak it which I'm perfectly fine with I just wish some people would take some pride of their native language and history.

CillianL

I went to the task of learning Irish fluently. I didn't do Irish in primary school and got an A1 Ard-Leibhéil.

My experience was that no one really cares about Irish because its seen as an ornament, nice to have but **** all you can do with it. Learning Irish is very achievable but its like most fellas trying to get six packs or girls trying to loose weight for the summer, everyone wants the end result but most can stomach the hard graft needed to realise it.

Dá bharr sin bhíos mar eo in aghaidh an sruth gan cabhair agus cáill mé mo dhóchais i bpobal na tire go mbeadh siad in ann aon athbheoacáin a thaibairt chun cinn sa todhchaí.

So seachtaine na gaeilge is grand for promoting aoibhinn ní shuilleabhán's face but its just empty marketing Irish people are too lazy and stupid to make Irish meaningful again

opti0nal

Derpiington95 wrote:

I just wish some people would take some pride of their native language.

Irish people are quite proud of their native language: English.

CillianL wrote: »

Irish people are too lazy and stupid to make Irish meaningful again

I suspect that Irish-language enthusiasts and the followers of the Main Aim would prefer this explanation to the appalling vista that many Irish people are quite OK with simply being English-speaking Irish folk.

Iwasfrozen

CillianL wrote: »

Irish people are too lazy and stupid to make Irish meaningful again

Ooh get you.

http://londonparticulars.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/kennethwilliams.jpg

Derpington95

opti0nal wrote: »

Irish people are quite proud of their native language: English.

By native language I meant to say indigenous language.

opti0nal

Derpington95 wrote: »

By native language I meant to say indigenous language.

What do you mean by 'proud of'?

Iwasfrozen

Derpington95 wrote: »

By native language I meant to say indigenous language.

Our indiginous language is english. That's the language we naturally speak. Irish is the strange language being hoisted onto us by the government and a politically motivated minority.

An Coilean

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Our indiginous language is english. That's the language we naturally speak. Irish is the strange language being hoisted onto us by the government and a politically motivated minority.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_language
Read the first paragraph and tell me does English seem to fit.

An Coilean

opti0nal wrote: »

Your fanciful thoughts that inside every English speaker is an Irish speaker yearning to get out? I ignored them as they're a distraction from the core issue which is whether or it its is right to force people to speak Irish. An issue, which I think you find inconvenient.

I never said that, just another in a long list of pointless strawmen on your part.

My post made the argument that there are several important factors when it comes to learning a language. Asserting that someone not learning a language means they don't want to is a false dichotomy.

Actually the core issue is that next year is Bliain na Gaeilge, a topic we seem to have strayed from.

Iwasfrozen

An Coilean wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_language
Read the first paragraph and tell me does English seem to fit.

By that definition no, though I didn't fail to notice the "citation needed".

opti0nal

An Coilean wrote: »

My post made the argument that there are several important factors when it comes to learning a language. Asserting that someone not learning a language means they don't want to is a false dichotomy.

Is this your justification for forcing children to speak Irish?

An Coilean wrote: »

Actually the core issue is that next year is Bliain na Gaeilge, a topic we seem to have strayed from.

Aptly illustrated by a video showing peoples' indifference when accosted by an annoying Irish speaker.

An Coilean

opti0nal wrote: »

Is this your justification for forcing children to speak Irish?

No, I was not trying to justify 'forcing children to speak Irish'. I was trying to point out that the suggestion that you put forward, ie: not being able to speak Irish shows that people don't want to, is false and that it is in fact more complicated than that. Get it now?

Aptly illustrated by a video showing peoples' indifference when accosted by an annoying Irish speaker.

What are they supposed to do, burst into applause? Do a song and dance to show their appreciation for the national language? The reaction he got was very much in line with the reaction you would normally get when asking for directions, its not something that's supposed to inspire great enthusiasm, the point is to show Irish in normal every day use on the streets of Dublin.

opti0nal

An Coilean wrote: »

No, I was not trying to justify 'forcing children to speak Irish'.

Got it.

An Coilean wrote: »

....the national language....

Ah yes, its's the The National Language.

9959

An Coilean wrote: »

No, I was not trying to justify 'forcing children to speak Irish'. I was trying to point out that the suggestion that you put forward, ie: not being able to speak Irish shows that people don't want to, is false and that it is in fact more complicated than that. Get it now?



What are they supposed to do, burst into applause? Do a song and dance to show their appreciation for the national language? The reaction he got was very much in line with the reaction you would normally get when asking for directions, its not something that's supposed to inspire great enthusiasm, the point is to show Irish in normal every day use on the streets of Dublin.

"What are they supposed to do.....a song and dance..."

I sincerely hope that if any songs are to be sung by the bewildered, unsuspecting members of the public, then those songs should be of the purest 'Gaelige', and not one of those foreign numbers from alien cultures much loved by young folk today, have they no national pride?

As for the dancing, let's keep it 'Irish', we want none of that gyrating or lascivious hip-swaying favoured by the loose-moraled horde of non-Irish speakers from 'the outside world' who seem to be having an inordinate, and indeed, malign influence on our purest of pure Gaelic children, we must keep our dancing 'comely maiden' style and NOT 'Gangnam', that is to say, no lateral hip movement, hands and harms welded to our flanks as if tied and bound by hundreds of years of sexual repression.
What next I wonder, speaking 'English' and playing the garrison game - filthy SOCCER - on the streets of our nation's capital........ for shame!

An Coilean

9959 wrote: »

"What are they supposed to do.....a song and dance..."

I sincerely hope that if any songs are to be sung by the bewildered, unsuspecting members of the public, then those songs should be of the purest 'Gaelige', and not one of those foreign numbers from alien cultures much loved by young folk today, have they no national pride?

As for the dancing, let's keep it 'Irish', we want none of that gyrating or lascivious hip-swaying favoured by the loose-moraled horde of non-Irish speakers from 'the outside world' who seem to be having an inordinate, and indeed, malign influence on our purest of pure Gaelic children, we must keep our dancing 'comely maiden' style and NOT 'Gangnam', that is to say, no lateral hip movement, hands and harms welded to our flanks as if tied and bound by hundreds of years of sexual repression.
What next I wonder, speaking 'English' and playing the garrison game - filthy SOCCER - on the streets of our nation's capital........ for shame!

Haha, it would be funny if it weren't so grossly ill-informed. You seem to think that Irish speaking is some kind of vehical for an isolationaist catholic Ireland.

The reality is quite different though, there has never been a shortage of modern music as Gaeilge, that's as true today as it was when 'Always on my mind' was being sung as Gaeilge back in the 70's

The kind of Irish dancing you are referring to is actually quite a recent invention and indeed it was developed specifically for purity and to be acceptable to the Church, but it is not particularly associated with the Irish speaking community, in fact it was more in the Garrison towns that it took off than in Irish speaking areas, the older and freer Sean Nós dancing was and is preferred choice for Irish speakers, when their not falling around the place in coppers of course

Feel free to have what ever prejudices you want, but I hope you can recognize them for what they are.

opti0nal

An Coilean wrote: »

Haha, it would be funny if it weren't so grossly ill-informed. You seem to think that Irish speaking is some kind of vehical for an isolationaist catholic Ireland.

Choosing to speak a different language to the majority of your fellow citizens is somewhat isolating.

Herb Powell

9959 wrote: »

"What are they supposed to do.....a song and dance..."

I sincerely hope that if any songs are to be sung by the bewildered, unsuspecting members of the public, then those songs should be of the purest 'Gaelige', and not one of those foreign numbers from alien cultures much loved by young folk today, have they no national pride?

As for the dancing, let's keep it 'Irish', we want none of that gyrating or lascivious hip-swaying favoured by the loose-moraled horde of non-Irish speakers from 'the outside world' who seem to be having an inordinate, and indeed, malign influence on our purest of pure Gaelic children, we must keep our dancing 'comely maiden' style and NOT 'Gangnam', that is to say, no lateral hip movement, hands and harms welded to our flanks as if tied and bound by hundreds of years of sexual repression.
What next I wonder, speaking 'English' and playing the garrison game - filthy SOCCER - on the streets of our nation's capital........ for shame!

What the actual fucck

Iwasfrozen

opti0nal wrote: »

Choosing to speak a different language to the majority of your fellow citizens is somewhat isolating.

Some would even say "elitist". :eek:

opti0nal

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Some would even say "elitist". :eek:

To be elitest, you'd be walking up to people in the street in an English-speaking city and proudly speaking Irish at them....surely nobody would do that?