Political Policing? PSNI soft on Loyalists

GRMA

Interesting article on Slugger:

http://sluggerotoole.com/2012/12/13/after-numerous-riots-countless-illegal-road-blockades-psni-announce-that-theyve-made-40-arrests/

After 9 days of riots, attempted murder and countless illegal road blockades publicly organised and advertised in advance, there have been some 40 people arrested by the PSNI.

Yup, 40.

One illegal sit-down protest in Ardoyne to oppose a loyalist parade through the nationalist district saw 26 nationalists arrested, charged and convicted in December 2011.

Those are scary numbers for anyone remotely interested in portraying the PSNI as a non-partisan policing service.

I think the Continuity RUC element in the PSNI is still holding it back - not as bad as it used to be but there is a long way to go - this is not helped by the rehiring of ex RUC people who were got rid of to try and make it a more equal and non sectarian force
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/oct/03/northern-ireland-police-rehired


Whats obvious is that over the past while despite the amount of illegal marches and protests, the violence etc the response by the PSNI has been very muted.

Do you think if nationalists were doing similar the response would be the same?

OCorcrain

GRMA wrote: »

Interesting article on Slugger:

http://sluggerotoole.com/2012/12/13/after-numerous-riots-countless-illegal-road-blockades-psni-announce-that-theyve-made-40-arrests/



I've think the Continuity RUC element in the PSNI is still holding it back - not as bad as it used to be but there is a long way to go - this is not helped by the rehiring of ex RUC people who were got rid of to try and make it a more equal and non sectarian force
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/oct/03/northern-ireland-police-rehired


Whats obvious is that over the past while despite the amount of illegal marches and protests, the violence etc the response by the PSNI has been very muted.

Do you think if nationalists were doing similar the response would be the same?

Definitely not, there would have been quadruple the amount of arrests.

Anyone who thinks the PSNI are impartial are kidding themselves.

GRMA

"On a day when unionism and loyalist paramilitaries brought chaos to Belfast city centre where masked men openly marched and where a tricolour was burned, the only known arrest is that of a nationalist youth from Carrickhill.

"The toleration of mass illegal marches and blocking of roads has not gone unnoticed by nationalists and questions need answered about this approach by the PSNI. This community demand civil, accountable, impartial policing and will settle for nothing less."

http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/25241

gallag

GRMA wrote: »

Interesting article on Slugger:

http://sluggerotoole.com/2012/12/13/after-numerous-riots-countless-illegal-road-blockades-psni-announce-that-theyve-made-40-arrests/



I think the Continuity RUC element in the PSNI is still holding it back - not as bad as it used to be but there is a long way to go - this is not helped by the rehiring of ex RUC people who were got rid of to try and make it a more equal and non sectarian force
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/oct/03/northern-ireland-police-rehired


Whats obvious is that over the past while despite the amount of illegal marches and protests, the violence etc the response by the PSNI has been very muted.

Do you think if nationalists were doing similar the response would be the same?

I seem to remember that "sit down protest" got pretty crazy, I am willing to bet the petrol bomb ratio matches the arrest ratio, you do understand their can be differing levels of violence at these events? A police woman got a breez block dropped on her head in ardoyne also

GRMA

gallag wrote: »

I seem to remember that "sit down protest" got pretty crazy, I am willing to bet the petrol bomb ratio matches the arrest ratio, you do understand their can be differing levels of violence at these events? A police woman got a breez block dropped on her head in ardoyne also

Dont lie to us. Those arrested had nothing to do with violence.

He also stressed that, according to police, the accused were not involved in violence which broke out later in the area.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-16299855

Iwasfrozen

GRMA wrote: »

Interesting article on Slugger:

http://sluggerotoole.com/2012/12/13/after-numerous-riots-countless-illegal-road-blockades-psni-announce-that-theyve-made-40-arrests/



I think the Continuity RUC element in the PSNI is still holding it back - not as bad as it used to be but there is a long way to go - this is not helped by the rehiring of ex RUC people who were got rid of to try and make it a more equal and non sectarian force
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/oct/03/northern-ireland-police-rehired


Whats obvious is that over the past while despite the amount of illegal marches and protests, the violence etc the response by the PSNI has been very muted.

Do you think if nationalists were doing similar the response would be the same?

If you think the PSNI is not being impartial complain to the ombudsman. If you have evidence of course. If you don't then we're wasting time here.

GRMA

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

If you think the PSNI is being impartial complain to the ombudsman. If you have evidence of course. If you don't then we're wasting time here.

If I thought the PSNI was being impartial I wouldn't be raising this very serious issue.

TOMASJ

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

If you think the PSNI is being impartial complain to the ombudsman. If you have evidence of course. If you don't then we're wasting time here.

A lot of good that did for the 6 catholics murdered in Loughinisland watching a football match when Al Hutchinsonthe the last ombudsman did everything possible to cover up the RUC/PSNI involvement with unionist murder gangs,

hopefully the new ombudsman will let the truth be known in a new inquiry

Iwasfrozen

GRMA wrote: »

If I thought the PSNI was being impartial I wouldn't be raising this very serious issue.

Well spotted my bad. But again my point stands if you think the PSNI is not doing it's job raise it with the people who can do something about it. That's what the ombudsman is there for.

TOMASJ wrote: »

A lot of good that did for the 6 catholics murdered in Loughinisland watching a football match when Al Hutchinsonthe the last ombudsman did everything possible to cover up the RUC/PSNI involvement with unionist murder gangs,

hopefully the new ombudsman will let the truth be known in a new inquiry

The fact you put the RUC and PSNI beside each other like they are equivalent says enough about your impartiality.

woodoo

Its been all over twitter and other forums. it is quite clear that loyalists and republicans are treated differently by the PSNI. Its not quite as bad as the RUC and is changing slowly. Someday it will reach parity. Demographics should see to that.

TOMASJ

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The fact you put the RUC and PSNI beside each other like they are equivalent says enough about your impartiality.

why would that be now,
did the New PSNI not re-employ RUC men only a few weeks after a big pay off,
to investigate the murder of Catholics by unionist murder squads with the full knowledge and that same RUC.
In this and dozens of other inquires by HET

fasttalkerchat

Any word on what they're planning tomorrow? We were planning a trip to the Christmas market but heard that there is supposed to be trouble again.

maccored

Isnt it a bit ironic to question a poster is impartial when the ombudsman isnt?

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/northern-ireland-police-ombudsman-office-rocked-by-damning-report-16045436.html

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Well spotted my bad. But again my point stands if you think the PSNI is not doing it's job raise it with the people who can do something about it. That's what the ombudsman is there for.

The fact you put the RUC and PSNI beside each other like they are equivalent says enough about your impartiality.

The powerful monitoring group is a cornerstone of the region's new policing structures but it is under pressure after findings that it removed criticism of police from probes into murders from the Troubles.

ChrisOF

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The fact you put the RUC and PSNI beside each other like they are equivalent says enough about your impartiality.

Considering that the PSNI is the successor organisation to the RUC putting them beside each other is necessary when talking about policing in the North over a period of time.
The onus is on them to prove that they are different.

Fratton Fred

If there had been 400 arrests people would still moan.

Death and Taxes

GRMA wrote: »

Interesting article on Slugger:

http://sluggerotoole.com/2012/12/13/after-numerous-riots-countless-illegal-road-blockades-psni-announce-that-theyve-made-40-arrests/



I think the Continuity RUC element in the PSNI is still holding it back - not as bad as it used to be but there is a long way to go - this is not helped by the rehiring of ex RUC people who were got rid of to try and make it a more equal and non sectarian force
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/oct/03/northern-ireland-police-rehired


Whats obvious is that over the past while despite the amount of illegal marches and protests, the violence etc the response by the PSNI has been very muted.

Do you think if nationalists were doing similar the response would be the same?

Dunno, I think they are taking the same approach as the Gardai did when the organized crime gang fired shots at the funeral of that dirtbag Ryan in Dublin a few months ago.
That said the behaviour of the loyalists and certain Unionist `has been absolutley deplorable and has shown their absolute contempt for the democratic process, while on the other side some are using this issue to score cheap political points and do a bit sectarian stirring.

PauloMN

I think it's easy to get caught up in numbers. These were two different situations, riots need to be handled in a completely different manner to protests. I not suggesting that the PSNI are perfect in every way, but imo they are far removed from what was the RUC. It will take time for all the old means and ways to be completely eradicated, but it will come with time, as older members retire and more fresh blood comes into the organisation - people who grew up in a more "normalised" NI society.

WileyCoyote above mentioned the Ryan funeral - it's a very good point. I remember thinking at the time why didn't the Gardaí go in and just arrest people, but in hindsight, their handling of it was absolutely spot on. Sometimes you have to take a step back and look at the bigger picture.

gurramok

If that Ryan gang funeral was up north, the PSNI would not have stepped back like the Gardai. If it was a Loyalist funeral, they would have stepped back.

These days we have protesters who are on the extreme end of Loyalism blockading important roads with threatening behaviour to anyone to tries to pass. Many of those protesters are covering their faces. In Ardoyne at the time, a sit down protest on a single road was forcefully broken up within hours. That along with the fewer arrests is the crux of it.
A "mass" blockading of roads is due again at rush hour this evening, we'll be watching the PSNI in their actions.

listermint

Fratton Fred wrote: »

If there had been 400 arrests people would still moan.

I have to question this.


Why would they?

Or is this just another i have to comment for the sake of commenting ? Sounds ridiculous.

junder

gurramok wrote: »

If that Ryan gang funeral was up north, the PSNI would not have stepped back like the Gardai. If it was a Loyalist funeral, they would have stepped back.

These days we have protesters who are on the extreme end of Loyalism blockading important roads with threatening behaviour to anyone to tries to pass. Many of those protesters are covering their faces. In Ardoyne at the time, a sit down protest on a single road was forcefully broken up within hours. That along with the fewer arrests is the crux of it.
A "mass" blockading of roads is due again at rush hour this evening, we'll be watching the PSNI in their actions.

That comes under the category of bull****, usually that's a dissident line that somehow the psni are just the RU in disguise, what actual proof is there that the psni are not even handed. Certinly in loyalist community's they feel the police are more heavy handed Ruth them, look on a loyalist gable wall, at the graffiti there P olice S erving N ationslist I nterests is the usual slogan

Martin Luther

I don't see a big problem with how the PSNI has handled this. It is important not to piss Protestants off.

PauloMN

Martin Luther wrote: »

I don't see a big problem with how the PSNI has handled this. It is important not to piss Protestants off.

The PSNI will never be able to do anything right when there's attitudes like that about. Thankfully most people don't hold such a narrow-minded view.

gurramok

junder wrote: »

That comes under the category of bull****, usually that's a dissident line that somehow the psni are just the RU in disguise, what actual proof is there that the psni are not even handed. Certinly in loyalist community's they feel the police are more heavy handed Ruth them, look on a loyalist gable wall, at the graffiti there P olice S erving N ationslist I nterests is the usual slogan

They only write that as the PSNI is no longer their force(RUC) enforcing their exclusive interests along the line "how dare they arrest a loyalist!", its the recent bias by the PSNI towards protests that sticks out a mile including illegal marches by face covered youths towards Belfast City Hall etc.. So when can we see the PSNI start clearing the illegal roadblocks?

junder

gurramok wrote: »

They only write that as the PSNI is no longer their force(RUC) enforcing their exclusive interests along the line "how dare they arrest a loyalist!", its the recent bias by the PSNI towards protests that sticks out a mile including illegal marches by face covered youths towards Belfast City Hall etc.. So when can we see the PSNI start clearing the illegal roadblocks?

Prove it

Fratton Fred

listermint wrote: »

I have to question this.


Why would they?

Or is this just another i have to comment for the sake of commenting ? Sounds ridiculous.

Because it is the usual republican posters critcising loyalists and the PSNI.

If the PSNI rounded up every single rioter and executed them, the usual suspects would claim they were being treated leniently.

Meanwhile, any republican put in prison is being held on a miscarriage of justice, or should be allowed special privileges.

They were complaining about no rubber bullets being fired the other day, until it was pointed out that they were used. now they have found something else to moan about.

FTA69

The fact is that the security of agenda of the PSNI is controlled entirely and exclusively by MI5 who operate from a large headquarters based in Holywood, Co Down. Despite Sinn Féin's claims that they can "put manners on the PSNI" etc via the policing boards, MI5 are answerable to nobody only themselves and are clearly pursuing an agenda whereupon political activists who challenge the status quo are being removed from the streets.

Stephen Murney, an Éirigi member, was stopped and searched dozens of times in his hometown of Newry. Recently they raided his house and put him up on charges of possesion of articles relevant to terrorists. These articles include a hat and a jacket which were used in a flute band and a plastic BB gun belonging to his young son.

Rab Jackson and Padraic MacCoitir have also been lifted as a result of a sit-down protest against a sectarian parade past Ardoyne. The state is pursuing the same aggressive tactics as it always did, despite Sinn Féin's erroneous claims of reform. People shouldn't be surprised that a police force controlled and directed by MI5 isn't in the least bit impartial. At the end of the day it will act in British interests, like it always has.

listermint

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Because it is the usual republican posters critcising loyalists and the PSNI.

If the PSNI rounded up every single rioter and executed them, the usual suspects would claim they were being treated leniently.

Meanwhile, any republican put in prison is being held on a miscarriage of justice, or should be allowed special privileges.

They were complaining about no rubber bullets being fired the other day, until it was pointed out that they were used. now they have found something else to moan about.

I think we both know thats not true. Does this make you as sensationalist as them ?

Yes, yes it does in a nutshell.

Fratton Fred

FTA69 wrote: »

The fact is that the security of agenda of the PSNI is controlled entirely and exclusively by MI5 who operate from a large headquarters based in Holywood, Co Down. Despite Sinn Féin's claims that they can "put manners on the PSNI" etc via the policing boards, MI5 are answerable to nobody only themselves and are clearly pursuing an agenda whereupon political activists who challenge the status quo are being removed from the streets.

Stephen Murney, an Éirigi member, was stopped and searched dozens of times in his hometown of Newry. Recently they raided his house and put him up on charges of possesion of articles relevant to terrorists. These articles include a hat and a jacket which were used in a flute band and a plastic BB gun belonging to his young son.

Rab Jackson and Padraic MacCoitir have also been lifted as a result of a sit-down protest against a sectarian parade past Ardoyne. The state is pursuing the same aggressive tactics as it always did, despite Sinn Féin's erroneous claims of reform. People shouldn't be surprised that a police force controlled and directed by MI5 isn't in the least bit impartial. At the end of the day it will act in British interests, like it always has.

Were Rab Jackson and Padraic MacCoitir wearing their tin foil hats at the time? if not they only ave themselves to blame.

Fratton Fred

listermint wrote: »

I think we both know thats not true. Does this make you as sensationalist as them ?

Yes, yes it does in a nutshell.

sensationalist? no, flippant? yes.

FTA69

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Were Rab Jackson and Padraic MacCoitir wearing their tin foil hats at the time? if not they only ave themselves to blame.

No, they were engaging in a legitimate sit-down protest against an inflammatory and provocative march by a shower of bigots. And then they were arrested and remanded in jail by a police force that clearly has a political agenda.

Is that difficult to comprehend or something?

Fratton Fred

FTA69 wrote: »

No, they were engaging in a legitimate sit-down protest against an inflammatory and provocative march by a shower of bigots. And then they were arrested and remanded in jail by a police force that clearly has a political agenda.

Is that difficult to comprehend or something?

so they were causing an obstruction and were arrested by the Police?

Wow, I'm sure MI5 spent hours instructing the PSNI on what to do with that one:rolleyes:

GRMA

Fratton Fred wrote: »

so they were causing an obstruction and were arrested by the Police?

Wow, I'm sure MI5 spent hours instructing the PSNI on what to do with that one:rolleyes:

How come loyalist blocking roads havent been arrested....

FTA69

Fratton Fred wrote: »

so they were causing an obstruction and were arrested by the Police?

Wow, I'm sure MI5 spent hours instructing the PSNI on what to do with that one:rolleyes:

Arrested ages later at a time when the cops are pursuing a nationwide agenda including attempting to have people imprisoned for having a beret in the house. Considering the police in the north have recently been proven to be colluding with Loyalists to murder British citizens I don't see how you have such difficulty believeing they may have an agenda.

Fratton Fred

GRMA wrote: »

How come loyalist blocking roads havent been arrested....

yet....

FTA69 wrote: »

Arrested ages later at a time when the cops are pursuing a nationwide agenda including attempting to have people imprisoned for having a beret in the house. Considering the police in the north have recently been proven to be colluding with Loyalists to murder British citizens I don't see how you have such difficulty believeing they may have an agenda.

it was proven the RUC were doing it, the PSNI is a different animal entirely.

FTA69

Fratton Fred wrote: »

yet....



it was proven the RUC were doing it, the PSNI is a different animal entirely.

The PSNI has the same agenda the RUC did, to maintain the security of the northern state within a British context. And to this effect their security agenda is exclusively dictated by MI5, who were up to their necks in state collusion with Loyalists.

getz

FTA69 wrote: »

The PSNI has the same agenda the RUC did, to maintain the security of the northern state within a British context. And to this effect their security agenda is exclusively dictated by MI5, who were up to their necks in state collusion with Loyalists.

i would not be so quick in throwing accusations about so quickly,wait at least untill the smithwick tribunal report is published,

FTA69

getz wrote: »

i would not be so quick in throwing accusations about so quickly,wait at least untill the smithwick tribunal report is published,

Sorry but collusion was a reality. End of story really.

getz

FTA69 wrote: »

Sorry but collusion was a reality. End of story really.

and so was irish senators gun running,and defence monies being paid to the IRA ,

FTA69

getz wrote: »

and so was irish senators gun running,and defence monies being paid to the IRA ,

First of all Irish state support went to defence committees, by the time the Provisional IRA was up and running properly the state turned completely against Republicans. And besides, does that somehow justify official British state agencies such as the police, the military and various intelligence agencies arming and equipping Loyalists so they could murder civilians in the UK?

getz

FTA69 wrote: »

First of all Irish state support went to defence committees, by the time the Provisional IRA was up and running properly the state turned completely against Republicans. And besides, does that somehow justify official British state agencies such as the police, the military and various intelligence agencies arming and equipping Loyalists so they could murder civilians in the UK?

then the smithwick tribunal on state collusion in the shootings of northern irish policemen is a complete waste of time and money [costing millions of euros ,so far]

FTA69

getz wrote: »

then the smithwick tribunal on state collusion in the shootings of northern irish policemen is a complete waste of time and money [costing millions of euros ,so far]

Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps a guard did pass on information to the IRA, I wouldn't disbelieve the notion. That however, is very different to a co-ordinated and sustained campaign of collusion undertaken by various state bodies.

junder

Ironically almost an identical thread is running on a loyalist site with exactly the same complaints about the police as the usual republicans on this site, the arguments are identical, just have to substitute the words republican / loyalist

FTA69

junder wrote: »

Ironically almost an identical thread is running on a loyalist site with exactly the same complaints about the police as the usual republicans on this site, the arguments are identical, just have to substitute the words republican / loyalist

Why are Republicans in charge of the PSNI's security agenda? I thought it was MI5 myself.

Loyalists having a siege mentality where everyone wants to sell them out at the drop of a hat is nothing new to be fair.

GRMA

junder wrote: »

Ironically almost an identical thread is running on a loyalist site with exactly the same complaints about the police as the usual republicans on this site, the arguments are identical, just have to substitute the words republican / loyalist

Given decades of RUC support any marginal move towards equal policing is viewed as favoring nationalists by loyalists.

junder

Blah, blah, blah, whine, whine, whine. So far any evidence that the psni is favouring loyalists is anecdotal. No actual proof. Once the protests die down the police will start arresting people, at the moment they are gathering intel,same as the Garda did during the recent dissident funeral.

Death and Taxes

FTA69 wrote: »

Arrested ages later at a time when the cops are pursuing a nationwide agenda including attempting to have people imprisoned for having a beret in the house. Considering the police in the north have recently been proven to be colluding with Loyalists to murder British citizens I don't see how you have such difficulty believeing they may have an agenda.

no the haven't!
It is believed that their was collusion at a very high level between the British Army (mostly the FRU) and loyalist gunmen years ago.
However dont let the facts get in the way of your agenda.

GRMA

WileyCoyote wrote: »

no the haven't!
It is believed that their was collusion at a very high level between the British Army (mostly the FRU) and loyalist gunmen years ago.
However dont let the facts get in the way of your agenda.

Everyone knows collusion was a reality

Fratton Fred

junder wrote: »

Blah, blah, blah, whine, whine, whine. So far any evidence that the psni is favouring loyalists is anecdotal. No actual proof. Once the protests die down the police will start arresting people, at the moment they are gathering intel,same as the Garda did during the recent dissident funeral.

and it is exactly the same way the Metropolitan and West Midlands police handled the riots last year.

Seeing as the chief constable of the PSNI cut his teeth at the Met and then the WM Police, I'd say these riots will be handled pretty much the same way.

TOMASJ

Fratton Fred wrote: »

and it is exactly the same way the Metropolitan and West Midlands police handled the riots last year.

Seeing as the chief constable of the PSNI cut his teeth at the Met and then the WM Police, I'd say these riots will be handled pretty much the same way.

Dont think the police in England would let super brit types wrapped in union jacks block roads in London Liverpool or any other city or town in England

junder

GRMA wrote: »

Everyone knows collusion was a reality

I see, it's on a gable wall so it must be true

Death and Taxes

GRMA wrote: »

Everyone knows collusion was a reality

The key word is WAS , not as another poster claimed IS.
I was reponding to a gross misrepresentation.