Political Policing? PSNI soft on Loyalists

gallag

Madam wrote: »

Are you still living in the 1950s and sixties? Thats not a Belfast people I recognise, well not in the modern era! By your reckoning people with more that two children are bad parents, I wonder how mine coped with 5:rolleyes:

What? Catholics fertility rate is higher than protestants even today, not many Catholic mothers will buy their children condoms. its just facts. Catholics generaly have stronger morals and faith, most make fantastic familys but simple statistics mean more children = higher chance of bad parents or just more hoods.

Have you googled west belfast joyriders yet? Can you offer any other reason why west belfast is living in fear of gangs of youths?

I dont want to offend people here but should we pretent there was not a "breed them out" culture in n.i? Or that catholics dont like contraception and make a lot of babys? Or that these factors combined helped make west belfast the most lawless part of any city in the uk/ireland?

GRMA

Mask is slipping Gallag, some pretty nasty sectarian stuff coming out of you there

Madam

He's wrong though - I happen to like contraception but then I'm not from Belfast:) I wonder if he knows of the many protestants who had 8, 9, 10 and even 13 of a family(my grannparents)?

FTA69

gallag wrote: »

I dont want to offend people here but should we pretent there was not a "breed them out" culture in n.i? Or that catholics dont like contraception and make a lot of babys? Or that these factors combined helped make west belfast the most lawless part of any city in the uk/ireland?

I heard that they use their front doors for firewood and keep coal in the bath. Also their childrens are all black-faced little urchins.

Honest to God lad you're some craic. Yes there is a high-crime rate in some Nationalist areas, the same as there is in other poor parts of the country. It has f*ck all to do with religion.

gallag

GRMA wrote: »

Mask is slipping Gallag, some pretty nasty sectarian stuff coming out of you there

What? What did I say was wrong? West belfast is plagued by gangs of youths, I hypothesised this is because of bad parenting, it does not happen anywhere else in belfast, I believe the problem stems from children being born about 15 years ago for voting/religious reasons. I know it is simplistic, and not a particularly nice theory but it does seem logical? I am happy to hear other theory's but lets not put our head in the sand.

gallag

Madam wrote: »

He's wrong though - I happen to like contraception but then I'm not from Belfast:) I wonder if he knows of the many protestants who had 8, 9, 10 and even 13 of a family(my grannparents)?

Of course there is not a set rule but generally catholics have more children and there was a vote them out culture up north. Feel free to show me wrong.

FTA69

gallag wrote: »

What? What did I say was wrong? West belfast is plagued by gangs of youths, I hypothesised this is because of bad parenting, it does not happen anywhere else in belfast, I believe the problem stems from children being born about 15 years ago for voting/religious reasons. I know it is simplistic, and not a particularly nice theory but it does seem logical? I am happy to hear other theory's but lets not put our head in the sand.

If you think people are having kids to out vote the DUP then you're off your rocker lad. End of story really.

gallag

FTA69 wrote: »

I heard that they use their front doors for firewood and keep coal in the bath. Also their childrens are all black-faced little urchins.

Honest to God lad you're some craic. Yes there is a high-crime rate in some Nationalist areas, the same as there is in other poor parts of the country. It has f*ck all to do with religion.

Nonsense! I am not soom fool that thinks theprotestant community had some sort of superiority over catholics, or that catholics are in any way inferior, it is just simple fact that the breed them out culture that existed then combined with the catholic churches position on making babys has got to be at least partly responsible for gangs of teenagers out on the streets making life hell for west belfast people.

gallag

FTA69 wrote: »

If you think people are having kids to out vote the DUP then you're off your rocker lad. End of story really.

Seriously? I thought it was common knowledge that this did happen?? Of course not every family would have that attitude but it did happen.

FTA69

gallag wrote: »

Nonsense! I am not soom fool that thinks theprotestant community had some sort of superiority over catholics, or that catholics are in any way inferior, it is just simple fact that the breed them out culture that existed then combined with the catholic churches position on making babys has got to be at least partly responsible for gangs of teenagers out on the streets making life hell for west belfast people.

There's gangs of young people running around every city in Ireland and further afield. There's plenty of hoods and car thieves and drug addicts in Loyalist areas too. I remember the UDA nailed one to a fence not too long ago.

gallag

FTA69 wrote: »

There's gangs of young people running around every city in Ireland and further afield. There's plenty of hoods and car thieves and drug addicts in Loyalist areas too. I remember the UDA nailed one to a fence not too long ago.

But the problem is no where near as bad as west belfast, even sf called it lawless, it really is that bad, did you google the videos? Do you wonder why there are no east blfast joyrider gang videos?

gallag

FTA69 wrote: »

There's gangs of young people running around every city in Ireland and further afield. There's plenty of hoods and car thieves and drug addicts in Loyalist areas too. I remember the UDA nailed one to a fence not too long ago.

The guy rhe uda nailed to the fence was a Catholic joyrider from west belfast. The ira broke his ankels a few months before that.

gallag

http://m.guardian.co.uk/uk/2002/nov/10/northernireland

FTA69

Whatever, they battered plenty of Protestant criminals as well over the years. West Belfast is probably a sh*thole because 1) like other Irish cities, it was neglected and has a huge problem of poverty. 2) Due to the conflict it has no tradition of policing outside of what the IRA provided, which was crude and haphazard, and now that's gone entirely.

It has nothing to do with people "breeding out Prods", that's just a figment of your bigoted imagination.

junder

FTA69 wrote: »

There's gangs of young people running around every city in Ireland and further afield. There's plenty of hoods and car thieves and drug addicts in Loyalist areas too. I remember the UDA nailed one to a fence not too long ago.

And where was the joyriders from? Republican west belfast, and while the politicans did thier condemnation bit for the media, his own community where Actully pretty happy at the punishment handed out to him, due in no part to him being a notorious and long term hood / joyrider and no I'm not condoning what happened to him, just showing just how fed up people are with the crimnal justice system that fails to deal with these hoods.

Chuck Stone

Gallag, Catholic parents from disadvantaged areas care as much about what the Pope says as Protestants from similar areas do - if they listened to the RCC at all there'd be no separations and wee'uns born outside marriage.

If we were to strip away the symbols and loyalties and concentrate on observing behaviour alone the two tribes have a lot more in common than they'd care to admit.

junder

Loyalist areas have thier Anti social problems to, however so far the hoods ( and i an leaving paramiltarys out of that deffnition) are yet to take such a hold. I do remember asking somebody from a republican area why joyriding seemed more common in republican areas. He believed it was because back in the day the provies used to get young hoods to nick cars so they could be used to plant bombs on, after a while the young hoods started having a bit of a muck about with the cars they had stolen, before handing them on, soon they stopped handing them on full stop and just nicked them for thier own pleasure. Yes this is purely anecdotal however there is an old film ' you me and marly' which gives a good ( although the film is abut old now) insight to joyriders

.jacksparrow.

junder wrote: »

Loyalist areas have thier Anti social problems to, however so far the hoods ( and i an leaving paramiltarys out of that deffnition) are yet to take such a hold. I do remember asking somebody from a republican area why joyriding seemed more common in republican areas. He believed it was because back in the day the provies used to get young hoods to nick cars so they could be used to plant bombs on, after a while the young hoods started having a bit of a muck about with the cars they had stolen, before handing them on, soon they stopped handing them on full stop and just nicked them for thier own pleasure. Yes this is purely anecdotal however there is an old film ' you me and marly' which gives a good ( although the film is abut old now) insight to joyriders

And who robbed the cars for the loyalists?

junder

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

And who robbed the cars for the loyalists?

Do you have a better explanation as to why joyriding is more prevalent in republican areas

Dubhlinner

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

And who robbed the cars for the loyalists?

I don't think they'd have nearly as big a turnover of cars as provos did. Though why you have use the whataboutery approach here is beyond me

It sounds like a decent enough potential explanation or at least factor to me. When a culture of joyriding starts among youths in an area its like trying to put out a bushfire for years because everyone has an older brother or cousin who did it.

THere could even be environmental factors to it. West belfast roads may just be more suitable to joyriders eg harder to police. from a quick glance at a map looks that way anyway

junder

Dubhlinner wrote: »

I don't think they'd have nearly as big a turnover of cars as provos did. Though why you have use the whataboutery approach here is beyond me

It sounds like a decent enough potential explanation or at least factor to me. When a culture of joyriding starts among youths in an area its like trying to put out a bushfire for years because everyone has an older brother or cousin who did it.

THere could even be environmental factors to it. West belfast roads may just be more suitable to joyriders eg harder to police. from a quick glance at a map looks that way anyway

Twinbrook and turf lodge would certinly have access to long stretchable of dual carriageway which would be fairly empty at night. However the worst if it at the moment seems to be centred on the stretch of road running up to divas flats from the city center

fasttalkerchat

gallag wrote: »

What? Catholics fertility rate is higher than protestants even today, not many Catholic mothers will buy their children condoms. its just facts. Catholics generaly have stronger morals and faith, most make fantastic familys but simple statistics mean more children = higher chance of bad parents or just more hoods.

Have you googled west belfast joyriders yet? Can you offer any other reason why west belfast is living in fear of gangs of youths?

I dont want to offend people here but should we pretent there was not a "breed them out" culture in n.i? Or that catholics dont like contraception and make a lot of babys? Or that these factors combined helped make west belfast the most lawless part of any city in the uk/ireland?

Yet more protestants are in prison (non-political) and protestants have a lower standard of education?
There are problems on both sides and the reasons for them are very complex.
And no we didn't have a programme to out breed you.

.jacksparrow.

Dubhlinner wrote: »

I don't think they'd have nearly as big a turnover of cars as provos did. Though why you have use the whataboutery approach here is beyond me

It sounds like a decent enough potential explanation or at least factor to me. When a culture of joyriding starts among youths in an area its like trying to put out a bushfire for years because everyone has an older brother or cousin who did it.

THere could even be environmental factors to it. West belfast roads may just be more suitable to joyriders eg harder to police. from a quick glance at a map looks that way anyway

Ha I was actually just asking a genuine question,was just curious...

SoulandForm

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Yet more protestants are in prison (non-political) and protestants have a lower standard of education?
There are problems on both sides and the reasons for them are very complex.
And no we didn't have a programme to out breed you.

The fact is that Catholic schools across the UK tend to be a lot better than other schools. They obviously have the ability to do things right that others dont have in this area.

The Protestant Community has backed itself into a corner- which is why frustration and anger about unemployment, bad housing, crime, failing schools, etc gets channeled into opposing bringing the policy of flying the flag into line with the rest of the UK.

Instead of Catholic and Protestant communities it would be nice to have just Ulster Irish communities with Catholics and Protestants in them.

fasttalkerchat

junder wrote: »

Do you have a better explanation as to why joyriding is more prevalent in republican areas

The strange thing is that now only old ****eboxes can be stolen easily, so it would be much less hassle to buy a £100 runabout, rally around the streets and get a fine and a few points.
Yet, they chose instead to hijack cars, a crime that guarantees a prison sentence.
So maybe its more about image... the same way that big time drug dealers blow their money on 10 grand alloys.

junder

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

The strange thing is that now only old ****eboxes can be stolen easily, so it would be much less hassle to buy a £100 runabout, rally around the streets and get a fine and a few points.
Yet, they chose instead to hijack cars, a crime that guarantees a prison sentence.
So maybe its more about image... the same way that big time drug dealers blow their money on 10 grand alloys.

I would liken it to more of a drug. I have worked with joyriders in the past and the talk about the buzz of stealing a fast hi powered car and thrashing the hell out of it, the thrill of being chased by the police. They also enjoy giving two fingers up to the local shinner / provie by raking the hell out of thier stolen vehicle right outside his / her house. There has been cases of joyriders having been knee capped are out stealing cars as soon as they are let out of hospital while they are still on crutches

junder

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Yet more protestants are in prison (non-political) and protestants have a lower standard of education?
There are problems on both sides and the reasons for them are very complex.
And no we didn't have a programme to out breed you.

Sure that can't be right, sure according to this thread the police are soft on prods

gallag

Look, if there are stats to show there are more protestants in prison and better Catholic schools then lets not ignore that, facts are facts, just like catholics breed faster and west belfast is the most lawless part of any uk/irish city due to gangs of teenagers running crazy. Why is that? Simple, bad parenting, what the hell are fifteen year old doing out at stupid oclock any way?? I know catholics are not worse parents than protestants, but with having more children it creats a statistical probability that there will be more hoods and bad/stressed parents. Why do they have more kids? Again, simple, cultural and religious reasons.

I am not trying to put catholics down here, why would I care, I hold all religions in equal distaste, just saying that more kids equals a higher probability of more hoods/bad parents, I dont think anyone with a logical mind would doubt that e.g if you had 1000 protestant familys with family sizes 6 or more they would have more hoods or stressed/bad parents than 1000 Catholic familys with 2 children, the question up for debate is why do people in west belfast have more kids? I believe for cultural and religious reasons.

SoulandForm

GRMA wrote: »

Mask is slipping Gallag, some pretty nasty sectarian stuff coming out of you there

Northern Ireland was founded on sectarianism.

Everyone both Catholic and Protestant has a certain amount of nasty tribalism there unless they have made serious efforts to get rid of it.

Take away the sectarianism and the British occupation both Protestants and Catholics from Northern Ireland are more similar to people from the ROI than people from the south of England are to people from the north of that country.

Sinn Fein though at the moment seem happy to accept the division among our people.

junder

SoulandForm wrote: »

Northern Ireland was founded on sectarianism.

Everyone both Catholic and Protestant has a certain amount of nasty tribalism there unless they have made serious efforts to get rid of it.

Take away the sectarianism and the British occupation both Protestants and Catholics from Northern Ireland are more similar to people from the ROI than people from the south of England are to people from the north of that country.

Sinn Fein though at the moment seem happy to accept the division among our people.

I am the British presence on the island along with the rest of the unionist community and because of this there will always be a British presence on this island regardless of what happens in any future referendums so unless you regard us as foreigners please explain to me how we can be 'occupying' the country we where born and bred in

fasttalkerchat

junder wrote: »

I am the British presence on the island along with the rest of the unionist community and because of this there will always be a British presence on this island regardless of what happens in any future referendums so unless you regard us as foreigners please explain to me how we can be 'occupying' the country we where born and bred in

There are plenty of people in the 26 counties of the same English/British/etc. descent. None of them are treated as foreigners, most of them assimilated very well.

COYW

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

There are plenty of people in the 26 counties of the same English/British/etc. descent. None of them are treated as foreigners, most of them assimilated very well.

Can you expand on the assimilation, if you don't mind? Assimilated into what?

SoulandForm

junder wrote: »

I am the British presence on the island along with the rest of the unionist community and because of this there will always be a British presence on this island regardless of what happens in any future referendums so unless you regard us as foreigners please explain to me how we can be 'occupying' the country we where born and bred in

You are no more British than I am; infact for all I know you could less British.

And what does British mean at the end of day?

Its very possible to argue that everybody is British in Ireland.

By British you mean Loyal to the Westminster State? Did I cease to be British when I copped on that Unionism/Loyalism was destructive nonsense? Thats not exactly a great nationality that people leave when they change politics, is it?

I can defend Cormwell and walk out unscatched from a Kerry rebel pub. Could I defend the men of 1916 and walk unbattered from a Loyalist pub in Northern Ireland?

The future of Northern Ireland is probably a sectarian bear pit riddled with poverty, violence and division ruled over by the British state. That is what you seem to want- and you can have it.

But people will still dream of something better.

fasttalkerchat

COYW wrote: »

Can you expand on the assimilation, if you don't mind? Assimilated into what?

Irish protestants.
For various reasons that didn't happen in the other 6. All sides must take some blame.

SoulandForm

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Irish protestants.
For various reasons that didn't happen in the other 6. All sides must take some blame.

A lot of Irish Protestants are from pure Gaelic stock. A lot of Orange bigots have Gaelic names. Protestantism is a Religion and not an ethnic group.

And anyway lumping non-conformist working class and small farming people with the Anglican Ascendency that brought such horror to Ireland is just wrong- even if the Orange and Black will be happy to do so today.

circadian

Back to political policing etc

Here's a handy wee tool for figures. It won't answer the question of the OP but it may help shed some light.

http://www.nicrimemaps.org/

Edit: since some were stating that crime, in particular vehicle theft was worse in the Divis Tower than in predominantly Loyalist areas seem to be misguided. In November vehicle crime in the area was in similar numbers as the Lisburn Road area.

http://www.police.uk/crime/?q=Divis Tower, Belfast BT12 4, UK#crimetypes/2012-11

oscarBravo

SoulandForm wrote: »

And what does British mean at the end of day?

What does Irish mean at the end of the same day?

fasttalkerchat

SoulandForm wrote: »

A lot of Irish Protestants are from pure Gaelic stock. A lot of Orange bigots have Gaelic names. Protestantism is a Religion and not an ethnic group.

And anyway lumping non-conformist working class and small farming people with the Anglican Ascendency that brought such horror to Ireland is just wrong- even if the Orange and Black will be happy to do so today.

Indeed. I was referring to how those of British origin who came to the south eventually became Irish, yet whose who cane to the North did not (on the whole).

SoulandForm

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Indeed. I was referring to how those of British origin who came to the south eventually became Irish, yet whose who cane to the North did not (on the whole).

You are very wrong.

As much as I dislike Ian Paisley and Billy Wright both are very Irish.

fasttalkerchat

SoulandForm wrote: »

You are very wrong.

As much as I dislike Ian Paisley and Billy Wright both are very Irish.

If I can trace my ancestors back to Greece then I'm of Greek heritage... maybe Irish-Greek rather than Greek but you are what you feel.
I don't think anyone has the right to tell someone who they are but the real question is why Paisley and Wright have not embraced the country of their birth.

junder

circadian wrote: »

Back to political policing etc

Here's a handy wee tool for figures. It won't answer the question of the OP but it may help shed some light.

http://www.nicrimemaps.org/

Edit: since some were stating that crime, in particular vehicle theft was worse in the Divis Tower than in predominantly Loyalist areas seem to be misguided. In November vehicle crime in the area was in similar numbers as the Lisburn Road area.

http://www.police.uk/crime/?q=Divis Tower, Belfast BT12 4, UK#crimetypes/2012-11

Lisburn Road is predominately a middle class professional / student area so unless students and nurses etc are our nicking cars I would suggest its people
Coming in from outside the the lisburn road

FTA69

junder wrote: »

Loyalist areas have thier Anti social problems to, however so far the hoods ( and i an leaving paramiltarys out of that deffnition) are yet to take such a hold. I do remember asking somebody from a republican area why joyriding seemed more common in republican areas. He believed it was because back in the day the provies used to get young hoods to nick cars so they could be used to plant bombs on, after a while the young hoods started having a bit of a muck about with the cars they had stolen, before handing them on, soon they stopped handing them on full stop and just nicked them for thier own pleasure. Yes this is purely anecdotal however there is an old film ' you me and marly' which gives a good ( although the film is abut old now) insight to joyriders

In the 1990s the northside of Cork City was plagued with joyriders, I remember every weekend night seeing cars flying around the open spaces in estates before burning them out on a green area. The problem was so bad that major roadworks had to be carried out to introduce chicanes and speed ramps in estates and the roads around them. Dublin was and is also famous for the level of car theft and joyriding that takes place. Believe it or not in these two cities the IRA had nothing to do with encouraging people to steal cars, so why is it so prevalent there as well?

The reason West Belfast is worse than most places is probably because there has been a situation where for a number of generations there was no concept of policing as its known in the rest of Europe. Anti-social behaviour was only ever dealt with by the IRA and as you said yourself in another post, shooting young people in the legs never discouraged them from committing crime. The cops have pulled people out of stolen cars with casts on their legs from the last beating/shooting.

circadian

junder wrote: »

Lisburn Road is predominately a middle class professional / student area so unless students and nurses etc are our nicking cars I would suggest its people
Coming in from outside the the lisburn road

Ye mean between Malone and Lisburn Road? How about heading down Ulsterville avenue or any of the streets near Windsor Park. Or in fact the whole of the bloody Lisbirn Road during the summer, I'm sure those middle class students are placing Union Jacks and loyalist paramilitary flags everywhere.

Ah, sure what do I know it's not like I've spent a lot of time in the area.

karma_

circadian wrote: »

Ye mean between Malone and Lisburn Road? How about heading down Ulsterville avenue or any of the streets near Windsor Park. Or in fact the whole of the bloody Lisbirn Road during the summer, I'm sure those middle class students are placing Union Jacks and loyalist paramilitary flags everywhere.

Ah, sure what do I know it's not like I've spent a lot of time in the area.

He knows very well that there are streets like Tates ave. running off the Lisburn road but that doesn't suit his argument.

gallag

circadian wrote: »

Ye mean between Malone and Lisburn Road? How about heading down Ulsterville avenue or any of the streets near Windsor Park. Or in fact the whole of the bloody Lisbirn Road during the summer, I'm sure those middle class students are placing Union Jacks and loyalist paramilitary flags everywhere.

Ah, sure what do I know it's not like I've spent a lot of time in the area.

Ulsterville av is expencive professional and student, the bottom of tates is about three small streets, past there you are back into west belfast or to the other side donegal road and the village. the cars may well be stole from the lisburn road but they end up burnt in west belfast, try googling lisburn road joyriders then google west belfast joy riders. Its common sense, the lisburn road area is a 10 min walk for the hoods, they have the loyalist areas of the Shankill and ballygomartin to one side and their own community to the other i.e pole glass twinbrook etc the safest place to steal is the lisburn rd.

gallag

karma_ wrote: »

He knows very well that there are streets like Tates ave. running off the Lisburn road but that doesn't suit his argument.

There are not streets "LIKE TATES AV" runnung of the lisburn road, there is only tates av and only the very bottom of tates av would be the sort of area a union flag would fly, every other street and most of tates av is professional/student, high house prices etc tates leads to boucher road and about 1.5 miles on up stockmans/balmoral joins the top of the lisburn/boucher rd. The boucher road and m1 are the only thing between west belfast and the lisburn road so it should suprise no one that many cars get stole from the lisburn road.

COYW

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Irish protestants.
For various reasons that didn't happen in the other 6. All sides must take some blame.

I am an Irish protestant. What did I or my ancestors who have lived in this country for generations assimilate into, exactly? Also, a person can be Irish and British, in the same manner that you can be Scottish, Welsh, English and British.

circadian

I can't even tell if you lads are on the troll or just contrary for the sake of it.

Edit: by you lads I mean junder and gallag.

gallag

circadian wrote: »

I can't even tell if you lads are on the troll or just contrary for the sake of it.

Edit: by you lads I mean junder and gallag.

What do you disagree with?

gallag

circadian wrote: »

Ye mean between Malone and Lisburn Road? How about heading down Ulsterville avenue or any of the streets near Windsor Park. Or in fact the whole of the bloody Lisbirn Road during the summer, I'm sure those middle class students are placing Union Jacks and loyalist paramilitary flags everywhere.

Ah, sure what do I know it's not like I've spent a lot of time in the area.

There are no union flags placed on the lisburn rd at anytime. Also no loyalist paramilitary flags, ever.