Political Policing? PSNI soft on Loyalists

junder

http://m.u.tv/news/Man-in-court-over-riot-firearm/95ce4beb-938c-49b9-8b25-98796c721715

SoulandForm

junder wrote: »

http://m.u.tv/news/Man-in-court-over-riot-firearm/95ce4beb-938c-49b9-8b25-98796c721715

From the link...

"A police constable said that he could connect the accused to the charges, saying initial tests on the alleged firearm that was recovered confirmed it was a blank firing pistol.

However, the PSNI officer said further tests would be carried out."

So lets wait and see what happens when those tests are finished, eh?

circadian

Ok so he was firing blanks. Does that make it any more acceptable?

gurramok

gallag wrote: »

As to the original point of this thread over 100 flag protesters have been arrested to date.

It took a month of violence for the PSNI to actually force them back. And as you are "local", how are these protests and marching on roads lawful?

Shouldn't they have had permission to march from East Belfast to the City Hall??

gallag

gurramok wrote: »

It took a month of violence for the PSNI to actually force them back. And as you are "local", how are these protests and marching on roads lawful?

Shouldn't they have had permission to march from East Belfast to the City Hall??

They have been arresting people all month, they did not just go out today and lift 100 people, that shows the point of this thread wrong, the psni really cannot win.

gallag

circadian wrote: »

Ok so he was firing blanks. Does that make it any more acceptable?

Yes.

GRMA

gallag wrote: »

Yes.

lol?

Are you serious?

gurramok

gallag wrote: »

They have been arresting people all month, they did not just go out today and lift 100 people, that shows the point of this thread wrong, the psni really cannot win.

Can you answer the question, how are these protests and marching on roads lawful?

Shouldn't they have had permission to march from East Belfast to the City Hall??

gallag

GRMA wrote: »

lol?

Are you serious?

Yes, firing a starters pistol is more acceptable than firing a real gun at people, how can that possibly be hard to understand? Both are wrong and scummy but I believe 100% of people would find being shot at with a blank firing gun more acceptable than being shot at with a real gun. Mabey I am missing something?

gallag

gurramok wrote: »

Can you answer the question, how are these protests and marching on roads lawful?

Shouldn't they have had permission to march from East Belfast to the City Hall??

I honestly dont know?? Is a peaceful protest illegal? Are they j-walking? Is that illegal? Does it fall under the remit of the parades commision? I really dont know.

GRMA

gallag wrote: »

Yes, firing a starters pistol is more acceptable than firing a real gun at people, how can that possibly be hard to understand? Both are wrong and scummy but I believe 100% of people would find being shot at with a blank firing gun more acceptable than being shot at with a real gun. Mabey I am missing something?

Neither are acceptable.

woodoo

gallag wrote: »

I find it ridiculous that people wont accept catholics have more children for cultural/religious reasons then also point out that the consensus showes that catholics are increasingly outnumbering protestants when it suits their agenda.

West Belfast is a hell hole, did you watch the new years eve video the west joyriders put up that I linked? What reason would you give for it?

I do accept that catholic families on average have more children than protestant families. Its the same in the south as in the north so it is not done in spite of protestants.

West Belfast may be a hellhole i have never been. But so are parts of Dublin, Limerick, London, Paris, New York. There are many reasons for that. Religion or Nationality is not the reason.

GRMA

I suggest ignoring gallags sectarian rantings about the evil plot of the papists, breed like rabbits they do.

GRMA

woodoo wrote: »

I do accept that catholic families on average have more children than protestant families. Its the same in the south as in the north so it is not done in spite of protestants.

West Belfast may be a hellhole i have never been. But so are parts of Dublin, Limerick, London, Paris, New York. There are many reasons for that. Religion or Nationality is not the reason.

West Belfast is no worse than parts of Dublin.

I like West Belfast, although there are bits of it that are dumps... like every city in the world.

gallag

GRMA wrote: »

West Belfast is no worse than parts of Dublin.

I like West Belfast, although there are bits of it that are dumps... like every city in the world.

Show me a video that is bad as the one I posted then, and still waiting on a logical explanation of why parents in west belfast have lost control of their children morso than other areas of belfast?

GRMA

Cause the papists have bred like rabbits and have no morals is it?


I dont agree with your assertion anyway.


I'm sure I could if I went digging, there are some very dodgy areas in Dublin which are just as bad if not worse. Joyriding specifically? I dunno but you get plenty of burnt out cars around where I stay in Dublin

gallag

GRMA wrote: »

Cause the papists have bred like rabbits and have no morals is it?


I dont agree with your assertion anyway.


I'm sure I could if I went digging, there are some very dodgy areas in Dublin which are just as bad if not worse. Joyriding specifically? I dunno but you get plenty of burnt out cars around where I stay in Dublin

Go digging then, and I gave a coherent argument of why higher numbers of children = higher chance of hoods, you offer nothing but rants of sectarianism and denial of facts including video evidence. Find a video of that level of social disobedience in any uk OR irish city, not a one of riot now, something that would back up your clame that west belfast is not the **** hole of these islands. Did you watch the video btw? Its not just joyriding, there are crowds of teens running a mock in a republican stronghold, they openly disrespect the ira and the police (look at the comments on the videos and graffiti) they actually attack the police with cars, jeeps and bricks and this is every week. What is your explanation? Now try a big boy responce without degenerating into crys of sectarianism etc.

sure joe

gallag wrote: »

I honestly dont know?? Is a peaceful protest illegal? Are they j-walking? Is that illegal? Does it fall under the remit of the parades commision? I really dont know.

which one are these apply i havent seen any peaceful protests. are loyalists capable of peaceful protests. why are they even protesting.

gallag

sure joe wrote: »

which one are these apply i havent seen any peaceful protests. are loyalists capable of peaceful protests. why are they even protesting.

Yes, for example, the last few nights have been completely peaceful until they came under attack by Republicans on the way home at the short strand, I am sure you can watch the last few nights news reports to confirm this. I dont agree with the protests, they are pointless but just because you or I dont agree does not mean people lose the right to protest peacefully.

GRMA

gallag wrote: »

Yes, for example, the last few nights have been completely peaceful until they came under attack by Republicans on the way home at the short strand, I am sure you can watch the last few nights news reports to confirm this. I dont agree with the protests, they are pointless but just because you or I dont agree does not mean people lose the right to protest peacefully.

Thats not true.

The residents of the short strand have long suffered at the hands of loyalists, perfect example is the attempted pogrom last year


You try to portray yourself as moderate, aloof - but as you know - I know what you are at.

sure joe

gallag wrote: »

Yes, for example, the last few nights have been completely peaceful until they came under attack by Republicans on the way home at the short strand, I am sure you can watch the last few nights news reports to confirm this. I dont agree with the protests, they are pointless but just because you or I dont agree does not mean people lose the right to protest peacefully.

the big word here is until. is it until they passed the nationalist, untill they provoked nationalist at the short strand with sectarian chants or these the same sort of halfwits who march round in a circle outside catholic churches in an attempt to get to know their neighbours better or show them some respect. i suppose it was good that they were able to retrain themselves long enough so that they could try and shift the blame to republicans. these cretins are a joke in ireland and britain and around the world

woodoo

GRMA wrote: »

You try to portray yourself as moderate, aloof - but as you know - I know what you are at.

Is he on another site too or do you know him personally?


Gallag where you have a disaffected people, poverty, inadequate policing, low levels of education and joblessness you are going to get problems.

gallag

You guys sure have an aversion to facts, you also seem to be under the mistaken impression that only one side has idiots capable of throwing stones, I myself realised long ago that both sides can be dicks, but no, you guys know better, only loyalists can protest, antagonise, riot or generally be idiots ;-)

gallag

woodoo wrote: »

Is he on another site too or do you know him personally?


Gallag where you have a disaffected people, poverty, inadequate policing, low levels of education and joblessness you are going to get problems.

I appreciate you putting forward an argument, I also agree with what you say but I would propose that the Shankill road is equally disaffected, in poverty etc but no where as bad as the falls for social disobedience. There would be people just asbad, just not as many people due no cultural/religious pressure to have babys.

SoulandForm

gallag wrote: »

I appreciate you putting forward an argument, I also agree with what you say but I would propose that the Shankill road is equally disaffected, in poverty etc but no where as bad as the falls for social disobedience. There would be people just asbad, just not as many people due no cultural/religious pressure to have babys.

Do you have any figures?

sure joe

gallag wrote: »

You guys sure have an aversion to facts, you also seem to be under the mistaken impression that only one side has idiots capable of throwing stones, I myself realised long ago that both sides can be dicks, but no, you guys know better, only loyalists can protest, antagonise, riot or generally be idiots ;-)

one side did have a real and genuine reason to protest

gallag

sure joe wrote: »

one side did have a real and genuine reason to protest

If you could wrap your head around it you would realise that both sides have a real and genuine reason to protest, unless you are self conceded enough to consoder yourself the ultimate authority on what people believe?

SoulandForm

gallag wrote: »

If you could wrap your head around it you would realise that both sides have a real and genuine reason to protest, unless you are self conceded enough to consoder yourself the ultimate authority on what people believe?

Yes I agree both sides do have reasons to protest; there is no rational reason though to be protesting the decision about bringing the policy of flag flying into accord with the UK mainland. None whatsoever.

gallag

SoulandForm wrote: »

Yes I agree both sides do have reasons to protest; there is no rational reason though to be protesting the decision about bringing the policy of flag flying into accord with the UK mainland. None whatsoever.

Its very simple, it created a change to what many people were used to, they did not like it, whether you agree or not surley you can see the rational thought behind it?

gurramok

gallag wrote: »

Yes, for example, the last few nights have been completely peaceful until they came under attack by Republicans on the way home at the short strand, I am sure you can watch the last few nights news reports to confirm this.

Provocation of burning the Tricolour at Short Strand http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuT9SS9r_Xo

Why couldn't they just keep on walking by? They just had to antagonise.

gallag

gurramok wrote: »

Provocation of burning the Tricolour at Short Strand http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuT9SS9r_Xo

Why couldn't they just keep on walking by? They just had to antagonise.

Its so petty and circular, if the republicans did not put the tricolour up on the fence to antagonise the peacful protesters on their walk home they would never of burnt it, if the loyalists never walked in intimidating groups up the road the nationlists would not have put the tricolour on the fence. Etc etc,Round and round this petty argument would go.

maccored

and like if someone was standing there and got punched in the head, it would be their fault for standing there too probably ... yes ... fantastic logic.

gallag wrote: »

Its so petty and circular, if the republicans did not put the tricolour up on the fence to antagonise the peacful protesters on their walk home they would never of burnt it, if the loyalists never walked in intimidating groups up the road the nationlists would not have put the tricolour on the fence. Etc etc,Round and round this petty argument would go.

SoulandForm

gallag wrote: »

Its very simple, it created a change to what many people were used to, they did not like it, whether you agree or not surley you can see the rational thought behind it?

No sorry I cant understand the effort taken into protesting over this decision.

Failing schools, rising crime and unemployment I can understand protesting over.

The fact that with all the problems facing both communities in Belfast they choose this to get worked up about is bordering on the insane.

gallag

maccored wrote: »

and like if someone was standing there and got punched in the head, it would be their fault for standing there too probably ... yes ... fantastic logic.

Or if someone was walking there and got a rock thrown at their head it would be their fault for walking there. round and round on the big political point scoring wheel. Weeeeeeeeeee. First person to change someone's entrenched political view posting circular arguments on a public forum wins the flag of their choice.

gallag

SoulandForm wrote: »

No sorry I cant understand the effort taken into protesting over this decision.

Failing schools, rising crime and unemployment I can understand protesting over.

The fact that with all the problems facing both communities in Belfast they choose this to get worked up about is bordering on the insane.

But you do understand people having different opinions and what is important or not important to you may well be important or not important to others? Do you also agree that if someone wants to protest about Marian price being in jail or a flag being removed it is their right to do so without threat of attack.

For the record I completely agree with you, It always astounds me that people will protest/riot about trivial **** like men marching up a road or not marching up a road or flags or some **** but massive tax avoidance that costs our economy more than the benefits system and mps pay and expenses put together bearly rouses a crowd at a coffee shop, still respect their right to protest stupid **** though because it might not be stupid to them.

SoulandForm

I accept their right to protest in a peaceful manner; however Im not to pleased with people protesting by blocking roads and causing headaches for people trying to get home from work. However I dont respect them for it. We wont know the results of this until the next Council elections; if the Alliance are strengthened or maintain what they have than we have turned a corner, if on the other hand they do badly and a Jamie Bryson gets elected than we are in trouble.

Thomas_I

gallag wrote: »

... a logical explanation of why parents in west belfast have lost control of their children morso than other areas of belfast?

I rather suspect that these parents not necessarally have lost control of their children but rather they´re encouraging them to join these "protests". It doesn´t mean that they told them to take part in riots also, but I wouldn´t be surprised if they did. That might be probably some tradition handed down from generation to generation and that´s the core of the whole problem. If their parents don´t move on, it takes even longer for their children to change their minds. That all starts and ends within the families at the first place and then within their communities. The interaction of both makes it hard to break through that circle of hate and anger.

Thomas_I

gallag wrote: »

You guys sure have an aversion to facts, you also seem to be under the mistaken impression that only one side has idiots capable of throwing stones, I myself realised long ago that both sides can be dicks, but no, you guys know better, only loyalists can protest, antagonise, riot or generally be idiots ;-)

There´s no aversion to facts from my point of view and I also take a look on both sides. The point is, that the Republicans "hold their horses" for longer than expected, which means that they´ve started to "fight back" after weeks of protests and riots initiated out of the Unionists / Loyalists protest marches. I say deliberatly "initiated" because unless there is some proof that these rioters have strong links or even are members of the aforesaid communities it would be an generalisation of the whole of the protestors. The interferance of some senior UVF members gives the whole thing a more dangerous quality in regards of the still fragile "peace" in NI.

I agree with you on the point that one can find these thugs everywhere and on both sides, for such people are more than pleased to find any opportunity to have "their fun". They never mind whether they´re hijacking some peaceful protest marches, the problem is that the peaceful protestors can´t get rid of them that simple by sorting them out, even if they try to do so.

sure joe

gallag wrote: »

If you could wrap your head around it you would realise that both sides have a real and genuine reason to protest, unless you are self conceded enough to consoder yourself the ultimate authority on what people believe?

so one side who despite living in ireland dont consider themselves irish. have more union jacks flying than in any part of britain i have ever seen. they do this for one reason and one reason only. so they now fell aggrieved that it wont be flying every day over certain buildings. contrast this to nationalist who are irish they are not represented by the union jack. they despise it, yet living in their own country this has been shoved down their throats by a one sided goverment all their lives and you think there is two sides to this story

Thomas_I

gallag wrote: »

But you do understand people having different opinions and what is important or not important to you may well be important or not important to others? Do you also agree that if someone wants to protest about Marian price being in jail or a flag being removed it is their right to do so without threat of attack.

For the record I completely agree with you, It always astounds me that people will protest/riot about trivial **** like men marching up a road or not marching up a road or flags or some **** but massive tax avoidance that costs our economy more than the benefits system and mps pay and expenses put together bearly rouses a crowd at a coffee shop, still respect their right to protest stupid **** though because it might not be stupid to them.

Very well said, indeed. This is what makes them different to the people in Britain, they go to protests on the street exactly for these reasons and don´t give a damn about flying the Union Flag anywhere. Some different perceptions of political realities and what really matters.

guttenberg

sure joe wrote: »

so one side who despite living in ireland dont consider themselves irish. have more union jacks flying than in any part of britain i have ever seen. they do this for one reason and one reason only. so they now fell aggrieved that it wont be flying every day over certain buildings. contrast this to nationalist who are irish they are not represented by the union jack. they despise it, yet living in their own country this has been shoved down their throats by a one sided goverment all their lives and you think there is two sides to this story

It stopped being just about the flag long ago. I've spoken to a few protestors about what they were protesting about, and they all sang from different hymn sheets! Read up on the rhetoric spouted by Jamie Bryson and Willie Frazer with their "Unionist Forum". Both previously had paid "community activist" employment, but money ran out, so this is their attempt at making themselves relevant/getting a new paycheck!
The Union Flag is back flying over Belfasts City Hall today because of a Royals birthday, will that stop any rioting tonight I wonder?

SoulandForm

When Jamie Bryson ran in an election the last time he claimed to be involved in anti-sectarianism and anti-racist activities. Only in Northern Ireland.

"His work promotes social inclusion and tackles sectarianism and racism and is reproduced across various communities in Northern Ireland."

http://cpni.biz/Alison/Profiles.html

NIMAN

Listened to a good piece on the TV the other day about the very low standards of grades/education among young Protestant males in Belfast, and how there is an increasing number of young males who are disillusioned with the system and their potential future.

Having said that, the Chief Constable also said that many of these young folks lives will be wrecked so early by getting themselves a criminal record whilst in their early teens.

It is sad to see one so young rioting. They have no concept of the damage this is doing to the provinces reputation abroad, and will directly affect the potential likelihood of an increase in jobs for them when they grow up. They are too young to know the effect the constant rioting of the 70s and 80s done, but history seems to be repeating itself.

As for the parents .... well thats a whole different argument.

Little_Korean

NIMAN wrote: »

Listened to a good piece on the TV the other day about the very low standards of grades/education among young Protestant males in Belfast, and how there is an increasing number of young males who are disillusioned with the system and their potential future.

Having said that, the Chief Constable also said that many of these young folks lives will be wrecked so early by getting themselves a criminal record whilst in their early teens.

It is sad to see one so young rioting. They have no concept of the damage this is doing to the provinces reputation abroad, and will directly affect the potential likelihood of an increase in jobs for them when they grow up. They are too young to know the effect the constant rioting of the 70s and 80s done, but history seems to be repeating itself.

Also, many of those rioting are clearly too young to really rememer the Troubles and the impact it had on everyone and everything.

Whether or not they'd still be out causing mayhem even if they did remember is a different question.

briany

Little_Korean wrote: »

Also, many of those rioting are clearly too young to really rememer the Troubles and the impact it had on everyone and everything.

Whether or not they'd still be out causing mayhem even if they did remember is a different question.

The kids might not be old enough to remember but I'd say their parents and grandparents are, and what are they telling their kids and their grandkids about the troubles? It worries me that there are a number of parents and grandparents on both sides who are misrepresenting the troubles to younger generations and a greater number who can't or won't keep tabs on where their kids are at night and what they're up to.

Little_Korean

briany wrote: »

The kids might not be old enough to remember but I'd say their parents and grandparents are, and what are they telling their kids and their grandkids about the troubles? It worries me that there are a number of parents and grandparents on both sides who are misrepresenting the troubles to younger generations and a greater number who can't or won't keep tabs on where their kids are at night and what they're up to.

How often do kids in general pay attention to anything their elders say about how things were 'back in the day'?

I see Willie Frazer on TV casting himself as the voice of an Unionist community outraged at yet another slight on their tradition but as he's never been elected despite numerous attempts, I doubt he represents even his own generation, let alone the younger lot.

Pottler

junder wrote: »

Prove it

Sorry you have lost your sight and hearing, hope you get well soon.

[MOD]This is not an acceptable response.[/MOD]

sure joe

junder wrote: »

No it was blank rounds and the fella responsable was arrested and charged with having a blank firing pistol

now we know why the catholics are multiplying quicker than the protestants

SoulandForm

A precedent has been set.

If during the summer the PSNI remove the GARC protesters from the road than the sheer level of the double standard could spark serious trouble and help discredit the current order further in nationalist and Republican eyes.

Chuck Stone

NIMAN wrote: »

It is sad to see one so young rioting.

Little_Korean wrote: »

Also, many of those rioting are clearly too young to really rememer...

It angers me when I see young children being allowed to join in the disturbances. It looks as if kids as young as 7 or 8 year are throwing stones at the cops (from both sides).

The parents should be ashamed of themselves - maybe a call from a social worker would be no bad thing.