Political Policing? PSNI soft on Loyalists

gallag

Chuck Stone wrote: »

It angers me when I see young children being allowed to join in the disturbances. It looks as if kids as young as 7 or 8 year are throwing stones at the cops (from both sides).

The parents should be ashamed of themselves - maybe a call from a social worker would be no bad thing.

I cant understand it, kids that age should be tucked up in bed, how any parent can let them do this?????? I cant go to bed at night if my cats aren't in never mind my kids.

dienbienphu

I think sooner or later the PSNI are gona have to come down hard on loyalists.

Chuck Stone

gallag wrote: »

I cant understand it, kids that age should be tucked up in bed, how any parent can let them do this?????? I cant go to bed at night if my cats aren't in never mind my kids.

I would have got a fierce slap if I'd have picked up a stone to throw at the cops as a young'un. My folks wouldn't have allowed us near anything like that anyway and always tried to insulate us from the troubles as kids. Sure didn't I used to say I was going to 'join the bands and throw the stick' when I was a nipper!

gallag

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I would have got a fierce slap if I'd have picked up a stone to throw at the cops as a young'un. My folks wouldn't have allowed us near anything like that anyway and always tried to insulate us from the troubles as kids. Sure didn't I used to say I was going to 'join the bands and throw the stick' when I was a nipper!

Same for me, my mum raised us in an estate called rathcoole, she never let me join a band and managed to shelter us as much as she could, still remember the riots though, back in the 80s, I remember a car buning in our front garden, but alas once you reach a certain age, start secondary school etc you become involved no marrer how much your mum tries. If N.I slipped by into troubles I would move, nothing is more important than my kids, I guess that is my main fear of a united ireland, I think even the most optimistic risk assessment would predict massive trouble.

True story, about a month ago I was picking a customer up from a house around the bottom of the newtownards road, just of a side street, while waiting I see two kids trying to break a brick in half, I put my window down and ask them were they going to throw their half bricks at the armoured police wagons, "yeah" they replied, I then asked them if they knew the very same wagons could withstand attack from rocket propelled grenades and their we bricks would not even scratch the paint and that the only risk here was for them to be run over or caught in cross fire, any way, off they went with their halfers, the optimist in me would hope they went home to safety but the realist in me fears I have sent them looking for some RPG'S :-)

Thomas_I

gallag wrote: »

... If N.I slipped by into troubles I would move, nothing is more important than my kids,...

This is what really counts in life.

gallag wrote: »

... I guess that is my main fear of a united ireland, I think even the most optimistic risk assessment would predict massive trouble. ...

I think that this fear is shared by plenty other people in NI by those with recollection of the troubles. Therefore the parents of these children taking part in the riots should know better.

If I were in your place, I would think exactly the same way you do.

Little_Korean

SoulandForm wrote: »

A precedent has been set.

If during the summer the PSNI remove the GARC protesters from the road than the sheer level of the double standard could spark serious trouble and help discredit the current order further in nationalist and Republican eyes.

Well, discredited in the eyes of those who'd never be satisfied in any case. It's not as if the PSNI gets to pick and choose which issues to get involved in.

Chuck Stone

gallag wrote: »

I guess that is my main fear of a united ireland, I think even the most optimistic risk assessment would predict massive trouble.

That's a generation away at least imho - hopefully things will improve for everyone by then both north and south.

COYW

gallag wrote: »

I cant understand it, kids that age should be tucked up in bed, how any parent can let them do this?????? I cant go to bed at night if my cats aren't in never mind my kids.

It is disgraceful parenting but it is just as evident down here. You see little clowns out acting the maggot when they should be in bed. I would love to see their parents taken to task over their children's behaviour but some goody-two-shoes organisation would probably prevent it from happening. It is probably "society's" fault that they are out acting like that.

gallag wrote: »

, I guess that is my main fear of a united ireland, I think even the most optimistic risk assessment would predict massive trouble.

I think violence, with a significant amount of it focused on this country, would be inevitable if a UI ever came to pass, which is one of the main and many reasons that I am against any form of unification with NI. Anyone who supports the idea of a UI has to accept that it is pretty much inevitable.

SoulandForm

COYW wrote: »

I think violence, with a significant amount of it focused on this country, would be inevitable if a UI ever came to pass, which is one of the main and many reasons that I am against any form of unification with NI. Anyone who supports the idea of a UI has to accept that it is pretty much inevitable.

And as long as Northern Ireland there will be violence. Rather a short burst than violence stemming the UK government playing one tribe off another tribe and also the inevitable armed resistance to occupation.

MakeEmLaugh

GRMA wrote: »

Interesting article on Slugger:

http://sluggerotoole.com/2012/12/13/after-numerous-riots-countless-illegal-road-blockades-psni-announce-that-theyve-made-40-arrests/



I think the Continuity RUC element in the PSNI is still holding it back - not as bad as it used to be but there is a long way to go - this is not helped by the rehiring of ex RUC people who were got rid of to try and make it a more equal and non sectarian force
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/oct/03/northern-ireland-police-rehired


Whats obvious is that over the past while despite the amount of illegal marches and protests, the violence etc the response by the PSNI has been very muted.

Do you think if nationalists were doing similar the response would be the same?

Actually, Jim Allister of the TUV would say the opposite. This is what he had to say in Stormont on Monday last.

"Some of the policing decisions have been bizarre to put it at its mildest. And there seems to have been an aggravating imbalance in the approach of policing. Repeated, known processions coming from the centre of the city into East Belfast, and yet no appreciable, detectable attempt to stop the attacks on those processions from within the Short Strand. No adequate policing in that regard. And that seems to be something which has been an aggravator, then compounded by the foolhardy policing actions of last Saturday."

SoulandForm

COYW wrote: »

Yes but at this moment in time the violence is not within the borders of this country. The point that gallag and I are making is that it will seep into our country, if a UI were to come about.

gallag if I understand correctly is a Unionist from Belfast, I presumed he was talking about the North.

Ireland is your country is it not? And its a small one.

COYW

Fratton Fred wrote: »

If there had been 400 arrests people would still moan.

The police have used water cannon and plastic bullets. They have gathered video evidence and are building cases against violent protestors based on the footage with a view to arrest and conviction. I fail to see what more they can do. There is no pleasing the republican/nationalist movement.

SoulandForm

COYW wrote: »

The police have used water cannon and plastic bullets. They have gathered video evidence and are building cases against violent protestors based on the footage with a view to arrest and conviction. I fail to see what more they can do. There is no pleasing the republican/nationalist movement.

GARC have not been free to block roads with "peaceful protest".

Dubhlinner

SoulandForm wrote: »

GARC have not been free to block roads with "peaceful protest".

Police don't have capability to stop the loyalists ffs. There's thousands of them out protesting it would inevitably lead to bringing the british army in.

GARC on the other hand are a tiny group who the vast majority of nationalists have no time for. No one gives a a damn when they get pulled off the streets

TOMASJ

COYW wrote: »

The police have used water cannon and plastic bullets. They have gathered video evidence and are building cases against violent protestors based on the footage with a view to arrest and conviction. I fail to see what more they can do. There is no pleasing the republican/nationalist movement.

The PSNI have "claimed" to have been doing just that for years concerning Unionist thugs,
But thats as far as it goes, little if any are ever charged with anything, "think back to Holy Cross School"
Possibly that's why the is "no pleasing Nationalists"

gurramok

COYW wrote: »

I think violence, with a significant amount of it focused on this country, would be inevitable if a UI ever came to pass, which is one of the main and many reasons that I am against any form of unification with NI. Anyone who supports the idea of a UI has to accept that it is pretty much inevitable.

Thats quite a quare view. You rather have your view overturned by the threat of violence! What happened to democracy?

gallag

gurramok wrote: »

Thats quite a quare view. You rather have your view overturned by the threat of violence! What happened to democracy?

But thats the thing, most people dont want a ui, and through the entire ira terror campaign most wanted to remain part of the uk, democracy did not matter to the IRA terrorists then and it does not matter now to the dissidents.

GRMA

gurramok wrote: »

Thats quite a quare view. You rather have your view overturned by the threat of violence! What happened to democracy?

Its a viewpoint common with unionists/partitionists.

By the same logic they should have been in favor of a UI during the troubles but you can be sure they peddled the "cant give in to violence" line then.

EDIT: Same with the "we can't afford it" cabal. During the celtic tiger they were saying that it would "drag us down"

guttenberg

gallag wrote: »

But thats the thing, most people dont want a ui, and through the entire ira terror campaign most wanted to remain part of the uk, democracy did not matter to the IRA terrorists then and it does not matter now to the dissidents.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/1127/1224327144275.html

Won't post it as it's quite a long article but it disagrees with your claim that "most people dont want a ui".

This is also reflected in the response to the question as to whether a united Ireland is something to be hoped for.Those saying Yes is still substantial at 64 per cent but it has declined since the 1980s. Even more striking, though, is that the number saying that they would prefer not to see a united Ireland has halved to 8 per cent since 1987.

Whilst most don't think a United Ireland will happen anytime soon, southern opinion towards the North is definitely softening/warming to the possibility.

gallag

guttenberg wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/1127/1224327144275.html

Won't post it as it's quite a long article but it disagrees with your claim that "most people dont want a ui".



Whilst most don't think a United Ireland will happen anytime soon, southern opinion towards the North is definitely softening/warming to the possibility.

The question asked was " do you think a United ireland is something to hope for" completely different to "do you want a united ireland".
Do you think going to mars is something to hope for? Do you want to go to mars?

GRMA

Flag protests: We’re going to make hundreds of arrests, declare police as they trawl CCTV footage

Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/flag-protests-wersquore-going-to-make-hundreds-of-arrests-declare-police-as-they-trawl-cctv-footage-16265502.html#ixzz2J5gn5O00

Will be very pleasantly surprised if this happens.

On a hilarious sidenote I see many loyalists on facebook and elsewhere are calling the PSNI the PSNIRA!!

fasttalkerchat

GRMA wrote: »

Flag protests: We’re going to make hundreds of arrests, declare police as they trawl CCTV footage

Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/flag-protests-wersquore-going-to-make-hundreds-of-arrests-declare-police-as-they-trawl-cctv-footage-16265502.html#ixzz2J5gn5O00

Will be very pleasantly surprised if this happens.

On a hilarious sidenote I see many loyalists on facebook and elsewhere are calling the PSNI the PSNIRA!!

The PSNI on all levels do not want to take on the loyalists. The decision makers know it is better to let them have their way just like at Drumcree. The cops on the ground know they will have nowhere to live if they take on their own neighbours. Remember the last time they clashed?

GRMA

PUP obviously don't know the meaning of police brutality given this is the type of behavior they are giving out about


Get real lads.

Disgraceful behaviour of PSNI officers, Bloomfield Ave, East Belfast

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJ6B3L16dew

You'll have noticed the camera they had mysteriously doesn't record sound... so we can only speculate as to what the camera man was saying.

junder

GRMA wrote: »

PUP obviously don't know the meaning of police brutality given this is the type of behavior they are giving out about


Get real lads.

Disgraceful behaviour of PSNI officers, Bloomfield Ave, East Belfast

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJ6B3L16dew

You'll have noticed the camera they had mysteriously doesn't record sound... so we can only speculate as to what the camera man was saying.

Because beating a man unconscious and then binding his arms and legs is totally acceptable behaviour, ps try using google, the version with sound is easily found

GRMA

junder wrote: »

Because beating a man unconscious and then binding his arms and legs is totally acceptable behaviour, ps try using google, the version with sound is easily found

I saw a man being restrained and resisting arrest

In all honesty you see harsher treatment to criminals on Road Wars or Brit cops or some of those shows

Theres nothing exceptional there, you should put it up on the emergency services forum and ask the police officers and an impartial audience there what they think, its not police brutality

woodoo

junder wrote: »

Because beating a man unconscious and then binding his arms and legs is totally acceptable behaviour, ps try using google, the version with sound is easily found

Why were they arresting him?

junder

GRMA wrote: »

I saw a man being restrained and resisting arrest

In all honesty you see harsher treatment to criminals on Road Wars or Brit cops or some of those shows

Theres nothing exceptional there, you should put it up on the emergency services forum and ask the police officers and an impartial audience there what they think, its not police brutality

So if it had been a nationalist you would still be perfectly comfortable with polices behaviour. Kind of ironic considering the title of this thread that you post a video of a Protestant man being beaten unconscious or perhaps you still think the police where to easy on him, perhaps a few broken bones would have been more acceptable for you?

junder

Last week there was a protest where I live an old man on crutches was beaten to the floor and his wrists badly bruised where the police twisted the crutches put of his hand. He was arrested taken to musgrave where the police had to call an ambulance to take him to hospital because of a heart condition. What was he arrested for? Having an offensive weapon, namely his crutches, the man is 70years old

GRMA

junder wrote: »

So if it had been a nationalist you would still be perfectly comfortable with polices behaviour. Kind of ironic considering the title of this thread that you post a video of a Protestant man being beaten unconscious or perhaps you still think the police where to easy on him, perhaps a few broken bones would have been more acceptable for you?

I've seen police brutality before and certainly I'm not saying that the PSNI dont do it but that video which to me shows a man resisting arrest then getting restrained is not an example of it, nothing near it.


What is happening is that the loyalist community are so used to the RUC being on their side over the years, (as evidenced by the hopefully exaggerated/untrue story about plans for ex RUC and UDR heads to put on their uniforms and steward/protect the fleg protesters) that any attempt by the RUC to deal with them in an anything approaching normal way is viewed as wrong, and police brutality, hence the crap about "PSNIRA". There's been a hysterical response to what has been a very softly softly approach adopted by the PSNI to policing this. It has been hysterical, people saying that the PSNI are too close to Sinn Féin and the like, have you ever heard such crap?

They need to wake up and recognize that the Orange State is gone and they cant have things there way and have the state back up their violence like the old days.

GRMA

junder wrote: »

Last week there was a protest where I live an old man on crutches was beaten to the floor and his wrists badly bruised where the police twisted the crutches put of his hand. He was arrested taken to musgrave where the police had to call an ambulance to take him to hospital because of a heart condition. What was he arrested for? Having an offensive weapon, namely his crutches, the man is 70years old

You were part of the protest and saw this?

guttenberg

junder wrote: »

Because beating a man unconscious and then binding his arms and legs is totally acceptable behaviour, ps try using google, the version with sound is easily found

Is there a video with a better angle showing him getting a beating? To me that was a man not wanting to comply with getting arrested, standard fare for police would be get them on the ground, use their extra numbers for advantage to get the fella cuffed. If there is a fear of him kicking out they'd use the leg restraints. Don't really see anything wrong with that particular video if i'm honest. Whatever reasons the police had for arresting him, a crowd getting in the officers faces arguing over it only makes the situation worse. Don't shout at them, get it on video, get officers numbers and report it if you feel somethings amiss!

junder

So beating a man unconscious is acceptable then?

guttenberg

junder wrote: »

So beating a man unconscious is acceptable then?

Where did I say that? I asked if there was a video showing a better angle of him getting a beating as I don't agree the video posted does? The man could have passed out for lots of reasons, he could have a dodgy medical history that's to blame for all we know!

junder

guttenberg wrote: »

Where did I say that? I asked if there was a video showing a better angle of him getting a beating as I don't agree the video posted does? The man could have passed out for lots of reasons, he could have a dodgy medical history that's to blame for all we know!

He was conscious before he was dragged behind the bill board ( conveniently out of site of any cameras) he becomes unconscious and yet is stil restrained around his legs and and handcuffed. You can see as he is dragged tons police wagon that he is still completely unaware of what is happening and offering no resistance as be is man handled. If is unconsciousness was due to illness you would think an ambulance would be a better place. Do you think that the video is evidence of the 'police being soft on loyalists'?

junder

GRMA wrote: »

You were part of the protest and saw this?

Nope, but I know the old man in question and have seen the video of him being 'subdued'

OCorcrainn

junder wrote: »

Nope, but I know the old man in question and have seen the video of him being 'subdued'

And the moral of todays story kids is that when all else fails use anecdotes.

junder

OCorcrainn wrote: »

And the moral of todays story kids is that when all else fails use anecdotes.

If there is video evidence it's hardly a anecdote

guttenberg

junder wrote: »

He was conscious before he was dragged behind the bill board ( conveniently out of site of any cameras) he becomes unconscious and yet is stil restrained around his legs and and handcuffed. You can see as he is dragged tons police wagon that he is still completely unaware of what is happening and offering no resistance as be is man handled. If is unconsciousness was due to illness you would think an ambulance would be a better place. Do you think that the video is evidence of the 'police being soft on loyalists'?

I think the police are just doing their job. I wonder would those present feel so outraged at police actions if the man arrested was protesting against an OO march? Ambulances generally don't like going into hostile situations, so once the PSNI got the man clear of the crowd, he was seen to by paramedics and was fine. For all we know the man could of "fainted" due to diabetes, in that case a bottle of lucozade cures a lot quicker than a trip to A+E!

Another video on the incident:

The protesters really come off swell in that, PSNI= "Police Supporting Nationalist Interests" is up there with PSNIRA for comedy gold! The man would appear concious throughout that to me, but i'm sure the truth will eventually come out:)

guttenberg

http://www.u.tv/news/Man-charged-after-Belfast-protest/4af46a8e-c0da-41fb-b573-8260fc2204b1

A 42-year-old man has been charged with a number of public order offences following a loyalist flag protest in east Belfast.


A protest at City Hall passed off peacefully. (© Pacemaker)
He was detained in the Bloomfield Avenue area, close to the Connswater shopping centre, on Saturday afternoon.

He has been charged with two counts of assaulting police, disorderly behaviour, obstructing traffic in a public place and three counts of resisting police.

He is due to appear at Belfast Magistrates' Court on Monday. As is normal procedure all charges will be reviewed by the PPS.

An ambulance was called to the scene of the arrest.

Officers confirmed medical assistance was sought but no medical assistance was required.

PUP leader Billy Hutchinson has criticised the PSNI over the man's arrest, describing it as "totally unacceptable".

He has called for a meeting with Chief Constable Matt Baggott.

"I've seen the footage of the incident and was shocked by it," said Mr Hutchinson.

"When arresting someone police officers have to take action that is both reasonable and proportionate. Based on what I've seen, I would say that this appears to be neither.

"I'm asking to meet with the Chief Constable to discuss this incident and the police response in general. There has been a lot of talk recently about the police being more affirmative in responding to the flag protests, but this appears to be totally unacceptable."

However police have defended their handling of the arrest.

A PSNI statement said: "Police were managing a protest in the Newtownards Road/Bloomfield Avenue area of Belfast when they arrested a 42-year-old male for resisting arrest, assault on police, obstruction of a public road and disorderly behaviour.

"The Police response to this arrest was appropriate and proportionate to the circumstances."

It is understood police also came under attack from missiles from the crowd.

A PSNI spokeswoman said the matter has been referred to the Police Ombudsman of Northern Ireland (PONI) for investigation.

Earlier a flag protest at Belfast City Hall passed off without incident.

Meanwhile police in Newtownabbey have made one arrest when dealing with "minor disorder" in the Cloghfern Corner area on Saturday night.

Police said calm has been restored and all roads have re-opened.

Seems reasonable, no?

junder

guttenberg wrote: »

http://www.u.tv/news/Man-charged-after-Belfast-protest/4af46a8e-c0da-41fb-b573-8260fc2204b1


Seems reasonable, no?

IF he is indeed guilty of these offences then yer he he derserved to be arrested, but knocked unconscious? And lets see what effect he is guilty of since we have people that have been arrested for 'waving a flag provocatively' and in the case of the old gentlemen I know having his crutches deemed an 'offensive weapon'

GRMA

So badly beaten he didnt need medical assistance?

junder

GRMA wrote: »

So badly beaten he didnt need medical assistance?

Actully he did, an ambulance did need to be called

GRMA

junder wrote: »

Actully he did, an ambulance did need to be called

"An ambulance was called to the scene of the arrest.

Officers confirmed medical assistance was sought but no medical assistance was required."

maccored

Its possible to be an 'old man' at 42?

junder

maccored wrote: »

Its possible to be an 'old man' at 42?

The old man I am talking about is 69

junder

So in conclusion in this case the police acted reasonably?would you still be arguing that this behaviour by the police is reasonably if the man in question had be a nationalist?

woodoo

junder wrote: »

So in conclusion in this case the police acted reasonably?would you still be arguing that this behaviour by the police is reasonably if the man in question had be a nationalist?

Your spin is tiresome junder.

junder

woodoo wrote: »

Your spin is tiresome junder.

Simply enough question, why not try answering it. In the video, did the police use reasonable force, regardless of the religion of the person being arrested. Would you still feel it was reasonable force if the person in question was a nationalist?

guttenberg

junder wrote: »

Simply enough question, why not try answering it. In the video, did the police use reasonable force, regardless of the religion of the person being arrested. Would you still feel it was reasonable force if the person in question was a nationalist?

Absolutely. The man appeared to be resisting arrest so the police used standard procedure to get him restrained. His innocence or guilt can be decided by a court of law, not an angry crowd arguing with the officers. His political/religious/sexual orientation should have no effect on how police deal with him, there is ample videos on Youtube showing non-compliant nationalists being dealt with in the same manner.

junder

guttenberg wrote: »

Absolutely. The man appeared to be resisting arrest so the police used standard procedure to get him restrained. His innocence or guilt can be decided by a court of law, not an angry crowd arguing with the officers. His political/religious/sexual orientation should have no effect on how police deal with him, there is ample videos on Youtube showing non-compliant nationalists being dealt with in the same manner.

So then, we now have a bench mark of constitutes 'reasonable force' by the police?