Nurses

Brussels Sprout · 17-01-2013 2:22pm

mfitzy wrote: »

Just seen on the news the application rate has been very low for the jobs. These young graduates are deluded. €22k may not be huge money, but these days it's a good start and a job in Ireland in very uncertain times.
The sense of entitlement from this set of workers and the Unions is sickening to say the least. The real elephant in the room is the Croke Park Agreement and the fact that existing nurse pay and conditions are absolutely cushioned (for now) and thus there's far less in the "pot" for the new entrants.

Delighted for them. They had no voice when the decision was taken to cut their pay. The existing workers have the Croke Park Agreement. Therefore the only weapon in their arsenal is to ignore the offer and leave. They're voting with their feet and the country will be the worse for it.

Once again the long term good of the country's public sector has been damaged for the sake of short term gains.

mikom · 17-01-2013 2:26pm

mfitzy wrote: »

Just seen on the news the application rate has been very low for the jobs. These young graduates are deluded. €22k may not be huge money, but these days it's a good start and a job in Ireland in very uncertain times.
The sense of entitlement from this set of workers and the Unions is sickening to say the least. The real elephant in the room is the Croke Park Agreement and the fact that existing nurse pay and conditions are absolutely cushioned (for now) and thus there's far less in the "pot" for the new entrants.

Delighted for them also.
Some of us would like to halt the race to the bottom.
The fockers in government would be advertising for Midwifes on jobbridge, if they got their way.

Brussels Sprout · 17-01-2013 2:27pm

One of the biggest incentives is salaries. A newly qualified nurse or midwife in NSW, which offers the best remuneration packages in the country, starts on an annual wage of $54,234 (€43,845). This compares to just €27,211 for new staff nurses on the first level of the pay scale in Ireland.

link

And of course that is the old Irish salary in the quote above. A lot of nurses were willing to stay here for the old salary but the additional 5k drop made it a no-brainer for most.

road_high · 17-01-2013 2:28pm

All very well but the country is broke. Looks like cutting off your nose to spite your face to me. €22k is hardly a race to the bottom with zilch experience. Nuts.

mikom · 17-01-2013 2:32pm

mfitzy wrote: »

All very well but the country is broke. Looks like cutting off your nose to spite your face to me. €22k is hardly a race to the bottom with zilch experience. Nuts.

zilch experience?
You know fock all about nurses training judging by that statement.
Also the ones that come in on €22k will be training and supervising new students, so in your opinion that would be zilch experience guiding zilch experience............. nuts is right.

Boombastic · 17-01-2013 2:36pm

mikom wrote: »

zilch experience?
You know fock all about nurses training judging by that statement.
Also the ones that come in on €22k will be training and supervising new students, so in your opinion that would be zilch experience guiding zilch experience............. nuts is right.

A new graduate training and supervising other new graduates

yes that is nuts

road_high · 17-01-2013 2:36pm

mikom wrote: »

zilch experience?
You know fock all about nurses training judging by that statement.

What they train in hospitals as part of their study, so what? I know all about it, I have family doing/did it. I did prof college work experience pre graduation, but was seen as a graduate when I graduated. Why nurses think they are any better is beyond me.
Hopefully these jobs will be advertised outside Ireland too.

speedboatchase · 17-01-2013 2:39pm

mfitzy wrote: »

Just seen on the news the application rate has been very low for the jobs. These young graduates are deluded. €22k may not be huge money, but these days it's a good start and a job in Ireland in very uncertain times.
The sense of entitlement from this set of workers and the Unions is sickening to say the least. The real elephant in the room is the Croke Park Agreement and the fact that existing nurse pay and conditions are absolutely cushioned (for now) and thus there's far less in the "pot" for the new entrants.

22k in an unsackable job and a two-year contract is certainly not to be sniffed at but if people feel that it's beneath them and want to look elsewhere then that's their prerogative.

I agree that it stems somewhat from a sense of entitlement (it took me two years to get a job in my chosen field after four years of college - 18k salary too) but if graduate nurses would rather emigrate or search in the private sector then fair enough - the country doesn't owe them a living and it shouldn't be held to ransom when it's broke.

I Heart Internet · 17-01-2013 2:42pm

Worst comment I've heard on this debate so far was from a union rep on RTE Radio who insisted that the level of pay cuts in the public sector had not really been matched in the private sector. She just stated that as a fact - presumably she doesn't understand that a profitable private company can pay staff in line with profits but an unprofitable company usually closes with all jobs lost. She thought there was a never ending pot of money in Ireland Inc somewhere.

Odysseus · 17-01-2013 2:43pm

Yeah, I have to agree, they will try and advertise these positions for longer now or soething in order to try get the numbers.

I still hope/think that this will not go ahead, we are still a long way from seeing this new positions on wards and in clinics. If they [the HSE] come up against problems at every turn, the idea may still be binned.

mikom wrote: »

Delighted for them also.
Some of us would like to halt the race to the bottom.
The fockers in government would be advertising for Midwifes on jobbridge, if they got their way.

I Heart Internet · 17-01-2013 2:45pm

speedboatchase wrote: »

22k in an unsackable job and a two-year contract is certainly not to be sniffed at but if people feel that it's beneath them and want to look elsewhere then that's their prerogative.

2 year contract /= unsackable job really though, does it? Unsackable for 2 years but not unsackable as in a "job for life".

Boombastic · 17-01-2013 2:47pm

Odysseus wrote: »

Yeah, I have to agree, they will try and advertise these positions for longer now or soething in order to try get the numbers.

...............

or foreign nurses will come in and snap up the jobs, then we'll hear the complaining!

road_high · 17-01-2013 2:51pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Worst comment I've heard on this debate so far was from a union rep on RTE Radio who insisted that the level of pay cuts in the public sector had not really been matched in the private sector. She just stated that as a fact - presumably she doesn't understand that a profitable private company can pay staff in line with profits but an unprofitable company usually closes with all jobs lost. She thought there was a never ending pot of money in Ireland Inc somewhere.

That's actually sickening. They work in an unproductive side of the economy with their wages paid via taxes from profits/salaries earned in the private economy. What about the 300k people that lost their jobs in the past 4 years? The govt really need to take a hard line with these jokers once and for all.

mikom · 17-01-2013 2:52pm

mfitzy wrote: »

What they train in hospitals as part of their study, so what? I know all about it, I have family doing/did it.

You said zilch experience.
The fact that you have family doing/did it makes your comments even more sickening.

mfitzy wrote: »

I did prof college work experience pre graduation, but was seen as a graduate when I graduated.

Much Hepatitis C and AIDS in your graduate position?

mfitzy wrote: »

Why nurses think they are any better is beyond me.

They probably don't

mfitzy wrote: »

Hopefully these jobs will be advertised outside Ireland too.

Enjoy retraining your "angels" from afar.
If they are even retrained.....

mfitzy wrote: »

They work in an unproductive side of the economy

Yeah, just like guards, teachers, Teagasc advisers, firemen, comedians, dog minders,.............

Gumbo · 17-01-2013 2:58pm

mfitzy wrote: »

That's actually sickening. They work in an unproductive side of the economy with their wages paid via taxes from profits/salaries earned in the private economy. What about the 300k people that lost their jobs in the past 4 years? The govt really need to take a hard line with these jokers once and for all.

you do know that unions are private sector....dont you

road_high · 17-01-2013 3:01pm

Boombastic wrote: »

or foreign nurses will come in and snap up the jobs, then we'll hear the complaining!

Hopefully they will. Once their qualifications pass muster with the HSE and the local grads think 22k is is too little (because Liam Doran and his ilk told them so), let the market decide. Like what happend the 300k plus that lost their jobs in the private sector .ie. the real world.

Odysseus · 17-01-2013 3:01pm

Boombastic wrote: »

or foreign nurses will come in and snap up the jobs, then we'll hear the complaining!

What I would like to see is the current nurses refusing to work with these lower paid nurses and other medical and allied staff joining in.

I would gladly refuse to work with one of these nurses if they ever do make it on a ward or clinic.

road_high · 17-01-2013 3:03pm

Odysseus wrote: »

What I would like to see is the current nurses refusing to work with these lower paid nurses and other medical and allied staff joining in.

I would gladly refuse to work with one of these nurses if they ever do make it on a ward or clinic.

How about taking a pay cut to increase the grads pay if they feel so strongly? That would be actual "solidarity"

FTA69 · 17-01-2013 3:06pm

They work in an unproductive side of the economy

Nursing is a vital cog in the health care system, health care is a necessary part of any decent and civilised society. It's hardly "unproductive", it certainly serves a more beneficial role for society (i.e. people) in general than many sectors in casino capitalism.

private sector .ie. the real world.

Considering nursing is a considerably more demanding job than the vast majority of private sector jobs your comment is nonsense to say the least.

K-9 · 17-01-2013 3:08pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Worst comment I've heard on this debate so far was from a union rep on RTE Radio who insisted that the level of pay cuts in the public sector had not really been matched in the private sector. She just stated that as a fact - presumably she doesn't understand that a profitable private company can pay staff in line with profits but an unprofitable company usually closes with all jobs lost. She thought there was a never ending pot of money in Ireland Inc somewhere.

Some will pay more, some will not. If you listen to IBEC they are always on about competitiveness.

Boombastic · 17-01-2013 3:08pm

Odysseus wrote: »

What I would like to see is the current nurses refusing to work with these lower paid nurses and other medical and allied staff joining in.

I would gladly refuse to work with one of these nurses if they ever do make it on a ward or clinic.

Why would you refuse to work with these nurses?

Why wouldn't you refuse to work with the other nurses who wouldn't take a paycut to even things out?

road_high · 17-01-2013 3:10pm

FTA69 wrote: »

Considering nursing is a considerably more demanding job than the vast majority of private sector jobs your comment is nonsense to say the least.

You are basing that on what evidence exactly?

17-01-2013 3:13pm

mfitzy wrote: »

All very well but the country is broke. Looks like cutting off your nose to spite your face to me. €22k is hardly a race to the bottom with zilch experience. Nuts.

Its absolute s**te money for the job, disgraceful even, works out at just over 18k after deductions. Just because someone has no experience (which the nurses actually have from their training) does not mean they should start on crap money. Plenty of jobs do and should have a good starting salary and nursing is one of them.

I hope you make this point to the nurses sometime you need them and I hope they land you outside the front door of the hospital with a kick.

Odysseus · 17-01-2013 3:13pm

Boombastic wrote: »

Why would you refuse to work with these nurses?

Why wouldn't you refuse to work with the other nurses who wouldn't take a paycut to even things out?

What the others nurses who have taken cuts, I would hope other disciplines would take a similar view if they where to try that with other new positions in other disciplines.

However, I have been saying this from day one, I can't see this happening. I don't think those nurses will ever make in on a ward. I could be wrong but time will tell.

FTA69 · 17-01-2013 3:14pm

mfitzy wrote: »

You are basing that on what evidence exactly?

On the common sense basis that dealing with horrific injury, constant bereavement, night shifts, 12 hour shifts, days of unpaid work every year, no breaks, unsocial hours, working during holidays, understaffing, drug dependency, infant mortality, severe alzheimers and dementia, alcoholism, physical violence, verbal abuse, aggression; all generally mean a tougher working enviornment than the likes of your typical office job.

Have you any idea what goes on in hospitals? What do you think it's like working in A and E on Saturday night?

Odysseus · 17-01-2013 3:14pm

mfitzy wrote: »

How about taking a pay cut to increase the grads pay if they feel so strongly? That would be actual "solidarity"

How about a higher tax to pay them the correct rate?

Boombastic · 17-01-2013 3:15pm

Odysseus wrote: »

What the others nurses who have taken cuts, I would hope other disciplines would take a similar view if they where to try that with other new positions in other disciplines.

However, I have been saying this from day one, I can't see this happening. I don't think those nurses will ever make in on a ward. I could be wrong but time will tell.

like the teachers did??

Odysseus · 17-01-2013 3:17pm

Boombastic wrote: »

like the teachers did??

Yeah, I know, terrible position for those people.

Death and Taxes · 17-01-2013 3:17pm

Boombastic wrote: »

Why would you refuse to work with these nurses?

Why wouldn't you refuse to work with the other nurses who wouldn't take a paycut to even things out?

IMO any unemployed nursing graduate who fails to apply for one of these jobs should be denied Social welfare, after all to qualify for Social Welfare you must be activly seeking work.

FTA69 · 17-01-2013 3:17pm

Luka Handsome Fingertip wrote: »

Its absolute s**te money for the job, disgraceful even, works out at just over 18k after deductions. Just because someone has no experience does not mean they should start on crap money. Plenty of jobs do and should have a good starting salary and nursing is one of them.

I hope you make this point to the nurses sometime you need them and I hope they land you outside the front door of the hospital with a kick.

Exactly, not much more than they'd get on the dole really for 1) spending four years doing a university degree and 2) working one of the toughest and most demanding jobs in society. It's an absolute joke like. On top of this then you have eejits trying to denigrate the nursing profession as being almost irrelevant due to the fact they are state employees. Ignoring the fact you wouldn't have any health care system without them.

Nurses

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