Nurses

smilerxxx

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

It is ridiculous for a new recruit in any profession, to expect to receive the same salary at the beginning of their career as an experienced colleague. I was disgusted to see nurses on the news last night saying that they can't afford to work for that salary and won't emigrate. So what's the alternative? You've received grant money from the public and are going to sit on your arse next year out of sheer bloody mindedness and some misguided sense of entitlement.

Some other poster asked if we would prefer to be nursed by a happy nurse or a disgruntled one. I would prefer to be nursed by someone with a professional approach to their job. I've spent a lot of time as a patient on surgical wards and I've met some fantastic nurses and some whom have made me seriously question their suitability for being in the nursing profession.

Take the money and be grateful to have a 2 year contract in a full-time paid job or don't the choice is yours. There are many unemployed people who would be delighted to be offered the opportunity you're being given. The hard done by attitude displayed on the news last night was disgraceful.

New recruits are not paid the same as experienced nurses. They never were. And that's how it should be.

Your attitude that we feel we are entitled is quite insulting. I'm entitled to nothing. But fair days work for a fair days pay.

mountai

Odysseus --- Read my post --- digest it --- You defend the indefensible IMHO. Why is there this perception . No one has suggested that Nurses pay is to be cut (for existing nurses) . The people effected are NOT NURSES , they have qualified in this sphere but are not yet employed. They have a choice. Its notable , the posts from existing working Nurses who are in agreement with points I raise. Hope this not being abusive to anyone.

handlemaster

smilerxxx wrote: »

Nobody said we should be guaranteed jobs. NOBODY! We should have to apply for what's available and may the best man win.

The thing is handlemaster, we don't want applause. We just want to be paid accordingly.

According to what ? Thats the rate so ?

Odysseus

mountai wrote: »

Odysseus --- Read my post --- digest it --- You defend the indefensible IMHO. Why is there this perception . No one has suggested that Nurses pay is to be cut (for existing nurses) . The people effected are NOT NURSES , they have qualified in this sphere but are not yet employed. They have a choice. Its notable , the posts from existing working Nurses who are in agreement with points I raise. Hope this not being abusive to anyone.

I have read your post and I'm still asking you to say what your point is. If it is valid why would you not say it out in the open?

smilerxxx

Of course some already employed nurses defend it. Their pay is protected. They are overworked and understaffed and doing the work of 3 to 4 nurses. They need help.

suicide_circus

I have mixed feelings on this one.

The hypocrisy of the unions, who sacraficed the futures of new young nurses in order to preserve the bloated pay and benefits of existing staff, is gauling but to be expected. Same as the teachers union.

The two year contract is not to be sneezed at and other professions would jump at the chance in this day and age but 22k p/a for what a nurse has to do seems ridiculously small, no? Are herw other benefits and perks not included in that figure?
As a previous poster said, this move is no doubt related to the recent EU directive on the payment of agency workers.

Pumpkinseeds

smilerxxx wrote: »

New recruits are not paid the same as experienced nurses. They never were. And that's how it should be.

Your attitude that we feel we are entitled is quite insulting. I'm entitled to nothing. But fair days work for a fair days pay.

Every employee is entitled to the same, however a lot of people in the private sector are being forced to take pay cuts just to keep their jobs. The economy is in the toilet and things need to change.

handlemaster

http://www.worldsalaries.org/professionalnurse.shtml

Odysseus

handlemaster wrote: »

According to what ? Thats the rate so ?

The rate they want is point 1 on the pay scale, this is where people start. Not 80% of it.

smilerxxx

handlemaster wrote: »

According to what ? Thats the rate so ?

According to the existing entry pay. It has already dropped by 20%.

Honestly, do You want the nurse who is responsible for your care, and accountable for care and the care of the hca's to be earning less than the cleaners. Disclaimer before anyone jumps down my throat, I work doing that too

It's me that faces a court on your behalf or to answer for actions against you.

Odysseus

suicide_circus wrote: »

I have mixed feelings on this one.

The hypocrisy of the unions, who sacraficed the futures of new young nurses in order to preserve the bloated pay and benefits of existing staff, is gauling but to be expected. Same as the teachers union.

The two year contract is not to be sneezed at and other professions would jump at the chance in this day and age but 22k p/a for what a nurse has to do seems ridiculously small, no? Are herw other benefits and perks not included in that figure?
As a previous poster said, this move is no doubt related to the recent EU directive on the payment of agency workers.

You can't have both ways, you believe that this rate is too small or low, but then the staff already there get bloated pay!!

Clarehobo

handlemaster wrote: »

http://www.worldsalaries.org/professionalnurse.shtml

Have you any more recent figures? Plus this doesn't indicate graduate salaries.

The Recliner

Given this thread was originally posted in the Horse racing forum this seem appropriate

*My lovely lovely lovely nurse*
My lovely nurse, running through the field
where are you going with your fetlocks blowing in the wind?
I want to shower you with sugar lumps
and ride you over fences
polish your shoes every single day
and bring you to the nurse dentist
*My lovely lovely lovely nurse*
My lovely nurse, you're a trainee no more
running around with the man on your back
like a trainee in the night, yeah
like a trainee in the night

smilerxxx

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

Every employee is entitled to the same, however a lot of people in the private sector are being forced to take pay cuts just to keep their jobs. The economy is in the toilet and things need to change.

And that cut was already taken. The nurses have given their share.

handlemaster

Odysseus wrote: »

The rate they want is point 1 on the pay scale, this is where people start. Not 80% of it.

Imagine going into an interview and saying before it even starts I don't want to work for X give me y. It just won't happen. The HSE is hemorraging money it has got to stop. Everyone has a point as to why it shouldn't be them. The whole public sector needs to be overhauled its a pity the government is only taking nibbles.

adamski8

smilerxxx wrote: »

With all due respect rasheed, you can say that in hindsight but when faced with reality it's very different. If you do get pregnant how would you pay for childcare with 2 nurses on days and nights both earning sweet fanny Adams

The same way how any couple does!
No company says oh i see you have 5 kids and a morgage well lets give you an extra ten G's then.

If the pay is not what you WANT it to be then go someone else or do something else.

I have never earned more than 16,000/year for the last 8 years getting qualifiedand looks like any job i take wil be 20,000/year boo hoo, its not anyone elses fault. No one owes me anything.

If you have trainined to be a nurse maybe you will have to go back and train as something else lole so many other qualified engineers etc that have found out there has been zero jobs in the last few year.

smilerxxx

It isn't "oh it shouldn't be us" it already was us guys.

handlemaster

smilerxxx wrote: »

According to the existing entry pay. It has already dropped by 20%.

Honestly, do You want the nurse who is responsible for your care, and accountable for care and the care of the hca's to be earning less than the cleaners. Disclaimer before anyone jumps down my throat, I work doing that too

It's me that faces a court on your behalf or to answer for actions against you.

Here we go again. A nurse will not give good care if he/she is not paid what they want. Will a taxi driver run me over if I don't give him/her a tip ? Will the waitress spit in my food if she feels she's not paid enough ?

corktina

40% management.... thats amazing...





bloody criminal too

Odysseus

handlemaster wrote: »

Imagine going into an interview and saying before it even starts I don't want to work for X give me y. It just won't happen. The HSE is hemorraging money it has got to stop. Everyone has a point as to why it shouldn't be them. The whole public sector needs to be overhauled its a pity the government is only taking nibbles.

I have been at many interviews where I have stated my rate is this, I have had plently of discussion where I had the rate increased and others where it has been lowered.

Rate of pay is often a part of the interview process.

Dozen Wicked Words

Oh the winds they were howlin' both ragged and cold
Through the grey Melbourne streets in the pre-Christmas days,
And the Sisters of Mercy looked out through their tents
At the fires in petrol drums, they seemed to say
Have we come to this, is it all we can do,
To sit here and wait, to see the thing through?
But to dig in their heels was a thing they'd been taught,
So they painted a sign and it said, "Blow your horn if you support".
Oh Sister of Mercy, why can't they see,
That a daughter of charity you'll never be.
It's a wicked old game that the government plays,
When they treat you like dogs, then you must have your day.
It's a telephone vote, everyone grab your phones,
All the people dial in from their luxury homes,
It was easy to do, far too easily done,
Well the thumbs they went down, it was three against one.
And none of us now can know how that felt,
But they strengthened their stance and they tightened their belts,
And the papers they all said "no beer for Christmas",
It seemed such a shame

While the nurses sat out in the wind and the rain.
Oh Sister of Mercy, why can't they see,
That a daughter of charity you'll never be.
It's a wicked old game that the government plays,
When they treat you like dogs, then you must have your day.
Well the girl on the six o'clock news looked concerned,
As she told of the developments bitter and bold,
But I could not help wonder what she got for Christmas,
And was there a story we hadn't been told.
In the newsroom, at the breakup the whole thing was fine,
But they never drank beer, the bastards drank wine.
While down on the pickets they cared not for beer,
Just for health, just for welfare,
Just for their hard fought careers.
Oh Sister of Mercy, why can't they see,
That a daughter of charity you'll never be.
It's a wicked old game that the government plays,
When they treat you like dogs, then you must have your day
When they treat you like dogs, then you must have your day
You will have your day, someday...

Written about the Australian Nurses Strike by Weddings,Parties,Anything.

Rasheed

smilerxxx wrote: »

With all due respect rasheed, you can say that in hindsight but when faced with reality it's very different. If you do get pregnant how would you pay for childcare with 2 nurses on days and nights both earning sweet fanny Adams

I understand the position you're in Smiler, one of my own friends is a newly grad and its a shiity position to be in. But this time two years ago, I was just finished my training that I slogged for and was delighted I had the career I always wanted.

Got my three months contract and then nothing. 70% of my class went to London, another five to Australia or Canada and the rest of us either couldn't leave or didn't want to. So I got agency and got on with getting as much experience as possible ( I realise agency has dried up somewhat).

What I'm trying today is, while with agency, I had shiit pay, €14 hourly rate, and none of the perks of being contracted to the HSE. No annual leave payed, no courses paid for me, no reassurance that if I needed sick or maternity pay, I would get it.

I went I to work every day wondering would this be my last, would the work or money dry up. If you came to me then and said you'd give me a two year contract with 80% wages, I have to say, I'd have taken the hand off you for it.

I understand what it feels like to slog beside a nurse that's getting paid a third more, it's rotten Smiler, but I couldn't see any other way to get experience and to be able to stay in the country.

smilerxxx

adamski8 wrote: »

The same way how any couple does!
No company says oh i see you have 5 kids and a morgage well lets give you an extra ten G's then.

If the pay is not what you WANT it to be then go someone else or do something else.

I have never earned more than 16,000/year for the last 8 years getting qualifiedand looks like any job i take wil be 20,000/year boo hoo, its not anyone elses fault. No one owes me anything.

If you have trainined to be a nurse maybe you will have to go back and train as something else lole so many other qualified engineers etc that have found out there has been zero jobs in the last few year.

I am a qualified engineer actually, I'm training as a nurse because I love it. And who said anything about ten g's Jesus Christ we only want entry pay,

The whole "you think your entitled" attitude is wearing thin. I don't think I'm entitled to a job. I think we should apply for what's available and The best person for the job is hired. That is it.

Dozen Wicked Words

Rasheed wrote: »

I understand the position you're in Smiler, one of my own friends is a newly grad and its a shiity position to be in. But this time two years ago, I was just finished my training that I slogged for and was delighted I had the career I always wanted.

Got my three months contract and then nothing. 70% of my class went to London, another five to Australia or Canada and the rest of us either couldn't leave or didn't want to. So I got agency and got on with getting as much experience as possible ( I realise agency has dried up somewhat).

What I'm trying today is, while with agency, I had shiit pay, €14 hourly rate, and none of the perks of being contracted to the HSE. No annual leave payed, no courses paid for me, no reassurance that if I needed sick or maternity pay, I would get it.

I went I to work every day wondering would this be my last, would the work or money dry up. If you came to me then and said you'd give me a two year contract with 80% wages, I have to say, I'd have taken the hand off you for it.

I understand what it feels like to slog beside a nurse that's getting paid a third more, it's rotten Smiler, but I couldn't see any other way to get experience and to be able to stay in the country.

Will you get paid courses, sick pay and maternity leave during this 2 year contract though, or is it a prolonged Temporary contract on less money? I don't know, and I am not sure you do.

smilerxxx

I believe it's a temporary contract, If it wasn't and I thought we would then start on entry level I would be interested. I am just fearful we'll be screwed again.

smilerxxx

handlemaster wrote: »

Here we go again. A nurse will not give good care if he/she is not paid what they want. Will a taxi driver run me over if I don't give him/her a tip ? Will the waitress spit in my food if she feels she's not paid enough ?

Your not answering the question, first of all of course a nurses care will NOT be any less, but do you honestly, hand on your heart honestly think it's fair?

If you do, I can't say much more to be honest.

Rasheed

dooferoaks wrote: »

Will you get paid courses, sick pay and maternity leave during this 2 year contract though, or is it a prolonged Temporary contract on less money? I don't know, and I am not sure you do.

A contracted temporary staff member gets the same benefits as permanent. And only right too.

Just an example of a course being paid for Manual Handling. While an agency nurse would have to pay approx €120 for a days training, a contracted HSE worker would get the course through the hospital.

smilerxxx

Rasheed wrote: »

A contracted temporary staff member gets the same benefits as permanent. And only right too.

Just an example of a course being paid for Manual Handling. While an agency nurse would have to pay approx €120 for a days training, a contracted HSE worker would get the course through the hospital.

Ya this is brilliant, And honestly if the government could be trusted I'd be seriously thinking this is great. But where will be after 2 years. Out on our ear I reckon. I can't emigrate unfortunately, getting on and a lot of commitments

Hail 2 Da Chimp

What makes you think these contracts will be renewed?

What makes you think they won't just hire another new batch of newly qualified nurses at 80% of the going rate and then ditch them at the end of their contracts too..?

TrixIrl

smilerxxx wrote: »

How about actually hiring us at the starting salary and maybe keep it at that salary for 2 years. The hidden agenda is to reduce the extortionate cost of paying for agency nurses, the huge agency bills would not exist if they just bloody hired nurses directly. The agency should not receive the same rate as the nurse, the agency should have had a 20% fee or even 10% it got completely out of hand.

As much as I think its a great opportunity for the newly qualified nurses (many of whom are my friends), its completlety unfair to reduce their salary again and also so unfair on nurses that qualified since the start of the embargo. They have been the ones propping up the HSE through agency/short contracts etc and had been promised jobs via the panels when the embargo was lifted. They are now being shoved out the door to be replaced with NQ nurses. Thre are wards in many hospital around the country, Cavan General being one that are completely staffed by agency - to give that whole ward and its responsibilities to NQs is ridiculous - it will increase the need for management when that the one thing we should be cutting.

Also, Liam Doran today said that agencies recieve 5.5% commission and that the other differnece is 23% VAT. If the abolished VAT on agency nurses (infairness VAT from HSE to agency to Governemt is just money goinga round in circles) they would save that 23% straight away anyways. Considering the other costs to the state that are involved in direct recruitment but are not encurred if hiring agency staff - pensions, mat & sick benefit, yearly training, uniforms, more HR staff, location and education allowances it would actually cost the state more to hire these nurses than get them through agency.

Im not pro-agency - i think the embargo should just be lifted and these positions be filled from the panels with the most experienced nurses possible but there's a reason the private hospitals (who dont have any ban on recruitment) are massive users of agency - its efficent. And the HSE could really do with a bit of that!