Why are Degree courses in Ireland 4 years?

steveLFC24

I studied biochemistry the UK and one of the reasons was because the degree was only 3 years (I started university at 21). Other reason being I wanted to get the hell out of Ireland for a while. I actually ended up doing 4 years, because I had the option to do a years work experience after the 2nd year. I found it extremely beneficial, being able to leave university and tell employers that I already have a years experience doing x, y and z. Do they that in Irish universities at all?

Anyway, I couldn't tell you why its 3 years her and 4 years in Ireland for an honours degree as I don't have a comparison.

MadsL

MadsL wrote: »

...and that's why he wasn't an English professor...

Yeah, professors never make typos ever

steddyeddy

steveLFC24 wrote: »

I studied biochemistry the UK and one of the reasons was because the degree was only 3 years (I started university at 21). Other reason being I wanted to get the hell out of Ireland for a while. I actually ended up doing 4 years, because I had the option to do a years work experience after the 2nd year. I found it extremely beneficial, being able to leave university and tell employers that I already have a years experience doing x, y and z. Do they that in Irish universities at all?

Anyway, I couldn't tell you why its 3 years her and 4 years in Ireland for an honours degree as I don't have a comparison.

No mandatory work experience in biochemistry at UCD I'm afraid! It's four year course but I think it's brilliant all the same. We get to work in the Conway institute which also looks great on a cv!

XxMCRxBabyxX

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Most of this is done when you are off uni anyway. Mine was april-september. Just did the exams a month earlier or so.

Not necessarily. I know a good few people who had work placement as part of their degrees (Law in NUIM, UCC and UL, Aeronautical Engineering in UL, Business in DCU, Business Management in NUIM, etc) and it was all done as an extra year (Sept - June).

I chose to do work placement as part of my degree but most didn't and so their degree was only 3 years. Most degrees in NUIM are 3 I think.

MadsL

bluewolf wrote: »

Yeah, professors never make typos ever

Bah...too many clever people in this thread I'm outta here and taking my 3 year Hons degree with me...

XxMCRxBabyxX

Ameer Attractive Ledge wrote: »

Well, my parents worked really hard for years to get to a comfortable (far from rich) level, making all kinds of sacrifices. Then when we got to university (my siblings and I are around the same age), we didn't qualify for any grants or reductions through the UK system and had to pay full whack for everything. My parents couldn't afford to pay all that (they paid as much as they could, which pretty much crippled them financially), so we had to work our way through college and take out student loans. Meanwhile, other students with parents on the dole got grants and reduced tuition, didn't have to work and a lot of the time didn't even bother showing up to classes. How is that fair? I think if it's free for some, it should be free for everyone. Those students who got grants have already cleared their debts, while I'll be paying mine off for the next 20+ years. A lot of others are in the same boat.

This 'you earn more, so you pay more attitude' doesn't sit well with me at all. Why bother busting your balls for years just to subsidise other people's kids while your own are drowning in debt?

This is why I believe that we need a system similar to Sweden's where your fees are paid for when you enter college and once you start working you pay them back. It then puts everyone in the same position and no one is better or worse off.

steddyeddy

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

This is why I believe that we need a system similar to Sweden's where your fees are paid for when you enter college and once you start working you pay them back. It then puts everyone in the same position and no one is better or worse off.

I completely agree! That's way no one is excluded but all the same you really have to put thought into you chosen degree path.

Tar.Aldarion

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

Not necessarily. I know a good few people who had work placement as part of their degrees (Law in NUIM, UCC and UL, Aeronautical Engineering in UL, Business in DCU, Business Management in NUIM, etc) and it was all done as an extra year (Sept - June).

I chose to do work placement as part of my degree but most didn't and so their degree was only 3 years. Most degrees in NUIM are 3 I think.

Ihad better clarify the courses then,. All the engineering courses in nuig were 4 years + those 6 months, so more like a 4.5 year course This was mandatory, yours is optional, although I don't know why people didn't do it unless they had a job already lined up. As it sounds like you did it after the degree was over for them? Or was it in between and they skip ahead

steddyeddy

Sarannewrap wrote: »

Media! ah its not like I have nothing going on though, Im starting a deputy editor internship Monday, I present a radio show on near fm, soon to be 2 shows, and I'm a music journalist for a few websites. I also run a beauty blog that is doing quite well. its all about getting the experience first!

It sounds like you have a lot going on to be fair! You're certainly putting yourself out there which is good. I do believe people make their own luck to a certain extent and people who take a chance are luckier. Good luck with your career anyway, when I win the Nobel prize hopefully you'll have me on for an interview :P

XxMCRxBabyxX

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Ihad better clarify the courses then,. All the engineering courses in nuig were 4 years + those 6 months, so more like a 4.5 year course This was mandatory, yours is optional, although I don't know why people didn't do it unless they had a job already lined up. As it sounds like you did it after the degree was over for them? Or was it in between and they skip ahead

Only mine was optional (Law in NUIM). The other courses I named were all mandatory placements of either 8 or 12 months in 3rd year.

My placement was between Second and Third Year so those who didn't do placement just skipped straight ahead to Third Year. Why, I don't know. I never really understood either. Placement was never not an option for me.

steddyeddy

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

Only mine was optional (Law in NUIM). The other courses I named were all mandatory placements of either 8 or 12 months in 3rd year.

My placement was between Second and Third Year so those who didn't do placement just skipped straight ahead to Third Year. Why, I don't know. I never really understood either. Placement was never not an option for me.

In fairness I would say placement in law is more important than a lot of other courses.

XxMCRxBabyxX

steddyeddy wrote: »

In fairness I would say placement in law is more important than a lot of other courses.

Tell that to my fellow classmates!

steddyeddy

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

Tell that to my fellow classmates!

Ok give me their numbers :P

maithanfear

you could also ask why universities have 4 months of summer holidays when semesters are only three months long? and the answer you will find is simple; money

rannerap

steddyeddy wrote: »

It sounds like you have a lot going on to be fair! You're certainly putting yourself out there which is good. I do believe people make their own luck to a certain extent and people who take a chance are luckier. Good luck with your career anyway, when I win the Nobel prize hopefully you'll have me on for an interview :P

Yeah in my industry you rarely just roll into a job! its all about the experience, ideally I would like to have more going on, Im a bit of a workaholic :pac: I find the more I have going on the more productive I am!

entropi

Sarannewrap wrote: »

Yeah in my industry you rarely just roll into a job! its all about the experience, ideally I would like to have more going on, Im a bit of a workaholic :pac: I find the more I have going on the more productive I am!

Sure the more you have going on, the more experience you're getting!

We have mandatory work experience for half of 4th year, it goes without saying that it will be an immense help in learning stuff outside of the course and furthering ourselves (coursemates + I) to getting employment afterwards.

Ruski

There's a reason for degrees such as science and engineering to be four years, and it's not for kids to piss about in college for an extra year. It's because those areas are vast. Three years is not enough time to learn everything. In fact, four years is too short to learn everything that you should know, understand properly and be able to use without a reference.

Duggys Housemate

Ruski wrote: »

There's a reason for degrees such as science and engineering to be four years, and it's not for kids to piss about in college for an extra year. It's because those areas are vast. Three years is not enough time to learn everything. In fact, four years is too short to learn everything that you should know, understand properly and be able to use without a reference.

Yeah. I can't imagine doing my B.Eng in 3 years.

Gi joe!

entropi wrote: »

Sure the more you have going on, the more experience you're getting!

We have mandatory work experience for half of 4th year, it goes without saying that it will be an immense help in learning stuff outside of the course and furthering ourselves (coursemates + I) to getting employment afterwards.

I really wish my course had offered work placements, was only 3 years and supposedly one of the 'best' of its kind in the country, when it doesn't even offer any form of work experience!

Which I'm praying to god doesn't leave me in a vicious cycle of 'cant get a job because of lack of experience, need experience to get job.'

--LOS--

My degree was 4 years, pretty intense course, long hours, couldn't imagine doing it in 3 years tbh. When I look in detail at masters courses though I find that the overlap is huge, which makes little sense, so it's kinda annoying that english students can get a masters in 4 years doing the same subjects I did to just get a B Sc. Granted they also do a masters thesis.


Also just want to say that I don't think degrees are more expensive in the uk to weed out the wasters! That's a bit ridiculous.

batistuta9

It's like afaik:

UK degree (3y) & Irish Honours degree (4y) are the same level

an Irish Honours degree(4y) is not the same level as a UK masters, even though they take same amount of time to complete

an Irish masters degree = UK masters on the level scale.
so a UK degree (3y) would be seen as better than an Irish Ordinary degree (3y) on the level scale

Duggys Housemate

batistuta9 wrote: »

It's like afaik:

UK degree (3y) & Irish Honours degree (4y) are the same level

an Irish Honours degree(4y) is not the same level as a UK masters, even though they take same amount of time to complete

an Irish masters degree = UK masters on the level scale.
so a UK degree (3y) would be seen as better than an Irish Ordinary degree (3y) on the level scale

That's not what is internationally accepted.

I don't agree that A levels are all that, either.

batistuta9

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

That's not what is internationally accepted.

I don't agree that A levels are all that, either.

what are you using for internationally accepted?

this is from the bologna process

1st cycle: typically 180–240 ECTS credits, usually awarding a bachelor's degree. The European Higher Education Area did not introduce the Bachelor with Honours programme, which allows graduates with a "BA hons." degree (e.g. in UK, Australia, Canada) to undertake doctoral studies without first having to obtain a master's degree.
2nd cycle: typically 90–120 ECTS credits (a minimum of 60 on 2nd-cycle level). Usually awarding a master's degree.
3rd cycle: doctoral degree. No ECTS range given.

cycle 1: would include Irish ordinary & honours degrees, it would also be UK degrees (3y) so they're the same level

cycle 2: would have an Irish masters & UK masters at the same level

I still think an Irish Ordinary degree would be seen as lower than a UK degree, but the Irish honours degree would be viewed the same
and no way can a Irish honours degree be viewed at the same level as a UK masters

Duggys Housemate

batistuta9 wrote: »

what are you using for internationally accepted?

this is from the bologna process



cycle 1: would include Irish ordinary & honours degrees, it would also be UK degrees (3y) so they're the same level

cycle 2: would have an Irish masters & UK masters at the same level

I still think an Irish Ordinary degree would be seen as lower than a UK degree, but the Irish honours degree would be viewed the same
and no way can a Irish honours degree be viewed at the same level as a UK masters

OK - from that: How does a 4 year degree end up with the same credits as a 3 year degree?

batistuta9

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

OK - from thst: How does a 4 year degree end up with the same credits as a 3 year degree?

I don't think the number of credits or the length of the degrees aren't the important thing there, it's the level the degree is at, if you know what i mean

I know the Irish levels are like this:
Doctorate - level 10
Masters - level 9
Bachelor's (Hons) - level 8
Bachelor's (Ordinary) - level 7

EDIT: meant to say aren't the important thing there, not are

hobochris

batistuta9 wrote: »

what are you using for internationally accepted?

this is from the bologna process



cycle 1: would include Irish ordinary & honours degrees, it would also be UK degrees (3y) so they're the same level

cycle 2: would have an Irish masters & UK masters at the same level

I still think an Irish Ordinary degree would be seen as lower than a UK degree, but the Irish honours degree would be viewed the same
and no way can a Irish honours degree be viewed at the same level as a UK masters

The reason a 4 year Irish honors degree is considered the same as a masters degree in the UK is because of amount of credits earned for each are equal(240 a piece ):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Credit_Transfer_and_Accumulation_System

batistuta9

hobochris wrote: »

The reason a 4 year Irish honors degree is considered the same as a masters degree in the UK is because of amount of credits earned for each:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Credit_Transfer_and_Accumulation_System

So what is an Irish masters considers as in the UK?

hobochris

batistuta9 wrote: »

So what is an Irish masters considers as in the UK?

Haven't a clue, just going off whats in the wiki. post-grad of some kind maybe?

batistuta9

hobochris wrote: »

Haven't a clue, just going off whats in the wiki. post-grad of some kind maybe?

I still think that an Irish honours degree isn't the same as a UK masters

scroll down to Ireland on this http://www.education.gov.uk/ta-assets/~/media/get_into_teaching/resources/subjects_age_groups/overseas_grade_comparison.pdf
no mention of it being equivalent to a masters

sock puppet

Gi joe! wrote: »

I really wish my course had offered work placements, was only 3 years and supposedly one of the 'best' of its kind in the country, when it doesn't even offer any form of work experience!

Which I'm praying to god doesn't leave me in a vicious cycle of 'cant get a job because of lack of experience, need experience to get job.'

I don't think placements are hugely important. Barely any Trinity courses have placements for instance. Lots of companies offer internships anyway.

edit: well it probably depends on the industry.

April O Neill

ScienceNerd wrote: »

I think a lot of 4 year courses include time for work experience, while a lot of the 3 year ones don't, could be wrong though.

No, in Trinity there's no work experience and it's four years to get your Honours degree.

Lou.m

steddyeddy wrote: »

That's it in a nutshell! The A-level subjects explain some aspects of biology really well. Only when we get rid of our system can we get rid of our first "general" year.

That's rubbish. I have a friend who left her first year in Uni studying exactly that subject in the UK because it was what she had studied in the leaving cert.

A Levels in my opinion are at most equal to leaving cert subjects (at most) and leaving cert students do more subjects.

In general the UK has a much poorer education system. It is better than the U.S but it is worse than here. And generally the rest of Europe is better than all of us.:)

Tar.Aldarion

sock puppet wrote: »

I don't think placements are hugely important. Barely any Trinity courses have placements for instance. Lots of companies offer internships anyway.

edit: well it probably depends on the industry.

Well you need experience in IT so it was great for me, also getting paid for 6 months before final year is kinda handy...

batistuta9

batistuta9 wrote: »

I still think that an Irish honours degree isn't the same as a UK masters

scroll down to Ireland on this http://www.education.gov.uk/ta-assets/~/media/get_into_teaching/resources/subjects_age_groups/overseas_grade_comparison.pdf
no mention of it being equivalent to a masters

It isn't. I don't know why people think it is. I did a 4-year BA at Trinity and then a Master's in the UK. My BA was considered a regular undergraduate degree, same as everyone else's.

AFAIK, some UK universities offer 4-year degrees and call them MA degrees, but I don't know how well respected they are.

Lou.m

Lou.m wrote: »

That's rubbish. I have a friend who left her first year in Uni studying exactly that subject in the UK because it was what she had studied in the leaving cert.

A Levels in my opinion are at most equal to leaving cert subjects (at most) and leaving cert students do more subjects.

In general the UK has a much poorer education system. It is better than the U.S but it is worse than here. And generally the rest of Europe is better than all of us.:)

That's hilarious. A-levels are most definitely not equal to LC subjects. They are much, much more difficult and require a much higher level of study and analysis. I went through the UK system in Northern Ireland and then tutored JC and LC subjects in the Republic and believe me, Leaving Cert French, for example, is just above GCSE level. Nowhere near A-level standard. I spent the first 1-2 years at Trinity going over stuff I'd already studied at school.

I don't see how the UK has a poorer education system. Most people do 9+ GCSEs, with all the core subjects and some electives, then at least 3/4 A-levels in subjects they want to study in greater depth.

somefeen

Ameer Attractive Ledge wrote: »

Well, my parents worked really hard for years to get to a comfortable (far from rich) level, making all kinds of sacrifices. Then when we got to university (my siblings and I are around the same age), we didn't qualify for any grants or reductions through the UK system and had to pay full whack for everything. My parents couldn't afford to pay all that (they paid as much as they could, which pretty much crippled them financially), so we had to work our way through college and take out student loans. Meanwhile, other students with parents on the dole got grants and reduced tuition, didn't have to work and a lot of the time didn't even bother showing up to classes. How is that fair? I think if it's free for some, it should be free for everyone. Those students who got grants have already cleared their debts, while I'll be paying mine off for the next 20+ years. A lot of others are in the same boat.

This 'you earn more, so you pay more attitude' doesn't sit well with me at all. Why bother busting your balls for years just to subsidise other people's kids while your own are drowning in debt?

Life's not fair. Get on with it.

Ameer Attractive Ledge

Ameer Attractive Ledge wrote: »

I spent the first 1-2 years at Trinity going over stuff I'd already studied at school. .

I did the same for science subjects. I suspect it's for people who hadn't taken it to that level yet before.

steddyeddy

somefeen wrote: »

Life's not fair. Get on with it.

She does have a point though.

somefeen

steddyeddy wrote: »

She does have a point though.

She does.

Sergeant

A 3rd level degree is a basic human right.

Muir

3 year degrees tend to be less specialised - you can do 3 year Science and Engineering degrees here but you would only have a general degree. The extra year gives you a specialisation like Mechanical Engineering for example.
The 3 years are still a level 8 degree, but you wouldn't be as likely to get employment in a specific sector. You would usually need a Masters with the 3 year (in Engineering the courses are moving towards a 3 year degree + 2 year Masters over here, and I think UK & other places have had this system in place for longer).

somefeen

somefeen wrote: »

Life's not fair. Get on with it.

I am getting on with it. That's why I did my two degrees and am now working. It doesn't mean I don't get to oppose that system.

Noodleworm

My course was a B.Sc. It used to be 4 years but they vut it down before I started. Got rid of some of the waffle and compulsory work experience.

Kinski

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

OK - from that: How does a 4 year degree end up with the same credits as a 3 year degree?

Overall grade is determined from the results in a single, final year. Hence, 4 year and 3 year degrees are equivalent: students take the same number of credits regardless of whether they have two or three previous years' study under their belts.

steddyeddy

Kinski wrote: »

Overall grade is determined from the results in a single, final year. Hence, 4 year and 3 year degrees are equivalent: students take the same number of credits regardless of whether they have two or three previous years' study under their belts.

Well in science the overall grade is determined from 70% of 4th year and 30% of third year.

Kinski

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well in science the overall grade is determined from 70% of 4th year and 30% of third year.

Yeah, there can be variations depending on the course and the college, but they don't tot up every grade over three or four years.

steddyeddy

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well in science the overall grade is determined from 70% of 4th year and 30% of third year.

Not always, can be just 4th

steddyeddy

bluewolf wrote: »

Not always, can be just 4th

That's true, UCD have adopted the 3rd and 4th year grading system though.

sock puppet

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Well you need experience in IT so it was great for me, also getting paid for 6 months before final year is kinda handy...

But there are also a ton of companies that offer summer internships.

Tar.Aldarion

sock puppet wrote: »

But there are also a ton of companies that offer summer internships.

Loads of people are looking for them, and not getting them. It was guaranteed in the course with their contacts. Also those wouldn't be paid?