Pro12: MUNSTER V USLTER - XMAS CRACKER - 29TH DECEMBER - K.O 5.30PM - RTE/BBCNI

Fishooks13

liammur wrote: »

Calm down.

Wait until the business end of the season and we'll see exactly where they are. That'll tell you knows their rugby.

They've played half the season with only one loss and you're trying to say that Ulster are still the same team that lost the HC final to Leinster. Baffling really :rolleyes:

liammur

Fishooks13 wrote: »

They've played half the season with only one loss and you're trying to say that Ulster are still the same team that lost the HC final to Leinster. Baffling really :rolleyes:

You were the one who started mentioning last season when they beat Clermont. No mean feat imo. You can't have it both ways.

Fishooks13

liammur wrote: »

You were the one who started mentioning last season when they beat Clermont. No mean feat imo. You can't have it both ways.

Yes, and the fact that they beat Clermont last season when they were clearly not as good as they are now indicates that they are as good as their results this season suggest. Both in the HC and the rabo.

They might not win either competition but they're outright favorites for the rabo with good reason and strong contenders for the HC too

GerM

Fishooks13 wrote: »

They've played half the season with only one loss and you're trying to say that Ulster are still the same team that lost the HC final to Leinster. Baffling really :rolleyes:

They've improved but people are getting well ahead of themselves in terms of their quality; they're a good side that haven't been tested at the very top yet.

Fishooks13

GerM wrote: »

They've improved but people are getting well ahead of themselves in terms of their quality; they're a good side that haven't been tested at the very top yet.

I don't think most people are. They've earned the right to be considered strong favorites for the league and contenders for the HC with their form to date. Not claiming any more

liammur

GerM wrote: »

They've improved but people are getting well ahead of themselves in terms of their quality; they're a good side that haven't been tested at the very top yet.

Some reason at last.

1 key game for me this season was N Saints. They needed the win, and were able to get it in Ravenhill. That was very telling imo. And N Saints are no world beaters.

Fishooks13

liammur wrote: »

Some reason at last.

1 key game for me this season was N Saints. They needed the win, and were able to get it in Ravenhill. That was very telling imo. And N Saints are no world beaters.

How is it telling. Please expand on this.

liammur

Fishooks13 wrote: »

Yes, and the fact that they beat Clermont last season when they were clearly not as good as they are now indicates that they are as good as their results this season suggest. Both in the HC and the rabo.

They might not win either competition but they're outright favorites for the rabo with good reason and strong contenders for the HC too

This remains to be seen. I don't think we'll be seeing Ulster in a H Cup final this year.

Fishooks13

liammur wrote: »

This remains to be seen. I don't think we'll be seeing Ulster in a H Cup final this year.

It doesn't remain to be seen. They have clearly improved under Anscombe. They've only lost one game in 4 months. I genuinely fail to see how you can argue that they haven't improved when their results are far better and more consistent

liammur

Fishooks13 wrote: »

How is it telling. Please expand on this.

An average English PL team badly needed a win, and were able to go Ulster and beat them. If a Toulon/Quins/Clermont/Saracens etc badly need a win in Ulster, they have every chance of getting it.

So I think Paddy Power are being very mean offering them at 7/1 to win the H Cup. I'd need at least 15/1.

Fishooks13

liammur wrote: »

An average English PL team badly needed a win, and were able to go Ulster and beat them. If a Toulon/Quins/Clermont/Saracens etc badly need a win in Ulster, they have every chance of getting it.

So I think Paddy Power are being very mean offering them at 7/1 to win the H Cup. I'd need at least 15/1.

I'd love to know what your definition of average is considering Northampton have been one of the top clubs in England along with Leicester and Quins for the last few years. They were HC finalists 2 years ago and have been in the semi finals of the premiership for the last 3 seasons AFAIK.

Also by your own logic is it not telling at Clermont needed at win going to Ulster last season and failed to get it. And using Quins as an example of a team that would topple Ulster at home is pretty odd considering they couldn't beat Connacht away in the most important HC game of last year.

Not to mention that Northampton were destroyed by Ulster the weak before their shock win in Ravenhill

liammur

Fishooks13 wrote: »

It doesn't remain to be seen. They have clearly improved under Anscombe. They've only lost one game in 4 months. I genuinely fail to see how you can argue that they haven't improved when their results are far better and more consistent

We've already explained it to you several times. The league isn't great this season. Ulster have done as much as they can do, but most teams in the league are in transition. Look at Scarlets, they are in 2nd place. I'm not so sure scarlets have improved hugely and warrant that position.

CatFromHue

liammur wrote: »

An average English PL team badly needed a win, and were able to go Ulster and beat them. If a Toulon/Quins/Clermont/Saracens etc badly need a win in Ulster, they have every chance of getting it.

After how Ulster beat Northampton the week before you could argue that they took their eye off the ball. I'd look at the two games together where Ulster won 34 -16 on aggregate which is impressive I think.

They're in with a great chance of getting a home QF and after that anything can happen.

Fishooks13

liammur wrote: »

We've already explained it to you several times. The league isn't great this season. Ulster have done as much as they can do, but most teams in the league are in transition. Look at Scarlets, they are in 2nd place. I'm not so sure scarlets have improved hugely and warrant that position.

Ulster themselves are in transition. But you're basically saying Ulster are not improved, which is fundamentally wrong.

awec

Saturday would have been a good barometer for where we are, but as it looks like we'll be sending a weakened team I'm not sure we'll be able to draw much from the result other than Munster's first choice selection is better than our second choice.

liammur

Fishooks13 wrote: »

I'd love to know what your definition of average is considering Northampton have been one of the top clubs in England along with Leicester and Quins for the last few years

Also by your own logic is it not telling at Clermont needed at win going to Ulster last season and failed to get it. And using Quins as an example of a team that would topple Ulster at home is pretty odd considering they couldn't beat Connacht away in the most important HC game of last year.

You see Clermont didn't need the win last season, they got out of the group regardless. Saints did need the win, or they were out. Mathematically out. That's the key difference.
Now, let's not block up the thread with this, as others will want to discuss the upcoming match.

And I'm going for a Munster win.

Digifriendly

PhatPiggins wrote: »

They played Clermont last season. I think his point is valid. They've beaten the top three Pro12 teams all of whom are in transition and are 1 from 2 against the fourth/fifth best team in the AP.

Ulster are good and improving but their achievements need to be kept in perspective with the quality of the opposition.

Ulster are 9 points clear at the top of the league and top of their HC pool with just one defeat to date. Record speaks for itself whatever the quality of the opposition.

Fishooks13

liammur wrote: »

You see Clermont didn't need the win last season, they got out of the group regardless. Saints did need the win, or they were out. Mathematically out. That's the key difference.
Now, let's block up the thread with this, as others will want to discuss the upcoming match.

.

So Northampton didn't need to win at home to Ulster too? :rolleyes:

Yes Clermont did need the win. They didn't know they were going to get out of the group and if they had won at Ulster they would likely avoided Leinster in the semi and got to the final on the easier side of the draw

CatFromHue

awec wrote: »

Saturday would have been a good barometer for where we are, but as it looks like we'll be sending a weakened team I'm not sure we'll be able to draw much from the result other than Munster's first choice selection is better than our second choice.

The teams that played already this season were:

Ulster
(15 - 9) J Payne; A Trimble, D Cave, L Marshall, M Allen; P Jackson, P Marshall
(1 - 8) T Court, N Brady, J Afoa, J Muller (c), L Stevenson, S Ferris, S Doyle, N Williams


Munster
(15 - 9) D Hurley; D Howlett (c), C Laulala, J Downey, L O'Dea; I Keatley, D Williams
(1 - 8) D Kilcoyne, D Varley, BJ Botha, D O'Callaghan, B Holland, D O'Callaghan, S Dougall, J Coughlan

Alot of these guys will be playing again if the Irish Internationals are pulled.

awec

Also, I think Munster will really be looking to beat us on Saturday. The quarter final last year and the game at Ravenhill this year, there is a score to settle. Yes, you beat us at thomond last year after the quarter final game, but that was a nothing game really.

If you beat us on Saturday it'll break our league win streak and upset the apple cart and I think that'll be all the motivation Munster need.

liammur

Fishooks13 wrote: »

So Northampton didn't need to win at home to Ulster too? :rolleyes:

Yes they did need the win. They didn't know they were going to get out of the group and if they had won at Ulster they would likely avoided Leinster in the semi and got to the final on the easier side of the draw

Again incorrect.

For the semi-finals, the teams are just randomly drawn out of the hat. 1st team out gets home advantage. Unfair imo, but that's the way it is.

liammur

awec wrote: »

Also, I think Munster will really be looking to beat us on Saturday. The quarter final last year and the game at Ravenhill this year, there is a score to settle. Yes, you beat us at thomond last year after the quarter final game, but that was a nothing game really.

If you beat us on Saturday it'll break our league win streak and upset the apple cart and I think that'll be all the motivation Munster need.

I agree, but being honest that wouldn't settle the score. Maybe this year, Ulster v Munster in the H Cup quarters, now that would be a match.

CatFromHue

I think Munster need to win too, for play off ambition reasons though not because it's personal (which it is too).

Glasgow play Edinburgh and Leinster play Connacht which will more than likely be wins for Glasgow and Leinster so a Munster loss and their back out of the play off spots.

Fishooks13

liammur wrote: »

For the semi-finals, the teams are just randomly drawn out of the hat. 1st team out gets home advantage. Unfair imo, but that's the way it is.

Winning every game in the pool stages would have given Clermont an easier game in the quarters and would have all but garunteed them getting out of the pool. You're implying that Clermont didn't need to win it because they ended up getting out of the group, which is rubbish because they had no way of knowing if they were going to get out of the group. And beating Ulster home and away would have all but made sure of that, and given them a better seeding for the the quarters.

Anyway you've given no real evidence that Ulster are not a better team this season so may as well leave it there.

It's just a bit mad suggesting Ulster are at the same level as they were last season when all evidence and results points to a distinct improvement

liammur

Fishooks13 wrote: »

So Northampton didn't need to win at home to Ulster too? :rolleyes:

Yes Clermont did need the win. They didn't know they were going to get out of the group and if they had won at Ulster they would likely avoided Leinster in the semi and got to the final on the easier side of the draw

Again, this is factually wrong. You seem to post things and believe them. Make- believe sort of posts. I've explained to you how it works. Now discuss the match, Munster v Ulster.

Fishooks13

liammur wrote: »

Again, this is factually wrong. You seem to post things and believe them. Make- believe sort of posts. I've explained to you how it works. Now discuss the match, Munster v Ulster.

Funny that you ignore my last post and quote that again, because it's basically the only leg you have to stand on . While Clermont may have not avoided Leinster they still would have seen the Ulster game as one they needed to win to cement their place at the top of the groups and to get a better quarter seeding. The did not know they would get out of the group, the could not see into the future

Lelantos

Well the Christmas cheer didn't last very long did it! Roll on the weekend

Fishooks13

liammur wrote: »

. I've explained to you how it works. Now discuss the match, Munster v Ulster.

You're not a mod. And discussing the claim you made about Ulster not being a better team this season is relevant to the game

liammur

Fishooks13 wrote: »

Funny that you ignore my last post and quote that again, because it's basically the only leg you have to stand on . While Clermont may have not avoided Leinster they still would have seen the Ulster game as one they needed to win to cement their place at the top of the groups and to get a better quarter seeding. The did not know they would get out of the group, the could not see into the future

Look, other readers must be having a right laugh. Munster DID NOT need to beat Racing Metro this year. Ideally we should have, and we could have. But we didn't need to. The same with Clermont last season, they DID NOT need to win that game. History has proven that. Their destiny was still in their own hands and they got out of their group. I've seen them over the years at munster/ospreys/leicester losing away from home, often content with a losing bonus point.
Munster now need to win our next 2 games, possibly bonus point wins. If you fail to grasp that, I'm not replying to your posts again.

Fishooks13

liammur wrote: »

Look, other readers must be having a right laugh. Munster DID NOT need to beat Racing Metro this year. Ideally we should have, and we could have. But we didn't need to. The same with Clermont last season, they DID NOT need to win that game. History has proven that. Their destiny was still in their own hands and they got out of their group. I've seen them over the years at munster/ospreys/leicester losing away from home, often content with a losing bonus point.
Munster now need to win our next 2 games, possibly bonus point wins. If you fail to grasp that, I'm not replying to your posts again.

Very weird post

I don't think we're going to get into the quarters. And if we don't the racing game will be the reason we didn't. Will you still be saying we didn't "need" to win it then?

btw, you don't need to highlight and underline random words in your posts. I'm capable of reading.

liammur

Fishooks13 wrote: »

Very weird post

I don't think we're going to get into the quarters. And if we don't the racing game will be the reason we didn't. We you still be saying we didn't "need" to win it then?

Yes, I will still say we didn't need to win it, but it was a most costly loss. A game I believe we threw away. However, were we good enough, we could still have topped the group and gone through. Destiny of the group was still in our hands.

As for Ulster, it's just my opinion, I like Ulster and if Munster don't win the H cup, I would like to see them win. I'm just not convinced they are top dogs yet. If I'm wrong, I'll take my hat off to them and be more than happy to congratulate them.

Fishooks13

liammur wrote: »

Yes, I will still say we didn't need to win it, but it was a most costly loss. A game I believe we threw away. However, were we good enough, we could still have topped the group and gone through. Destiny of the group was still in our hands.

As for Ulster, it's just my opinion, I like Ulster and if Munster don't win the H cup, I would like to see them win. I'm just not convinced they are top dogs yet. If I'm wrong, I'll take my hat off to them and be more than happy to congratulate them.

No one said they're top dogs. But saying they're not a better team this season than they were last season is very odd.

liammur

Fishooks13 wrote: »

No one said they're top dogs. But saying they're not a better team this season than they were last season is very odd.

Give it a break, it's only my opinion. Not fact.

They got to the H Cup final last season, beating good teams on the way, so they were a damn good team last seaon. Nothing odd about it whatsoever.

Clareman

Liammur banned until after the game for backseat modding.

Fishooks13

liammur wrote: »

Give it a break, it's only my opinion. Not fact.

They got to the H Cup final last season, beating good teams on the way, so they were a damn good team last seaon. Nothing odd about it whatsoever.

This is a discussion forum. It would be a fairly boring place if you couldn't discuss other peoples opinions.

Ulster beat a poor Munster and Edinburgh side en route to a final they were soundly beaten in.

This season they look a different beast. Anscombe has brought them to the next level. Their league forum this season is starkly better than last season and they're pretty much the form side in the British Isles.

Not saying they'll win the HC this year. But if they don't get to the final it doesn't for a second mean they're a worse team than last year

mfceiling

liammur wrote: »

Some reason at last.

1 key game for me this season was N Saints. They needed the win, and were able to get it in Ravenhill. That was very telling imo. And N Saints are no world beaters.

They also needed a win in england and guess what happened.......

mfceiling

liammur wrote: »

Look, other readers must be having a right laugh. Munster DID NOT need to beat Racing Metro this year. Ideally we should have, and we could have. But we didn't need to. The same with Clermont last season, they DID NOT need to win that game. History has proven that. Their destiny was still in their own hands and they got out of their group. I've seen them over the years at munster/ospreys/leicester losing away from home, often content with a losing bonus point.
Munster now need to win our next 2 games, possibly bonus point wins. If you fail to grasp that, I'm not replying to your posts again.

I don't believe this to be true.

If you ask any coach is he sending his strongest team out for a win in every pool game i would bet he says he is.

The pools are mostly competitive and all teams are aware that they need as many points as possible.

I couldn't see Schmidt or Anscombe saying "ah sure we've a home match next week lads so we don't need to win this game - anything we get is a bonus - sure give it a lash and see how you get on".

thomond2006

The league is pretty close at the moment, Ospreys winning tonight has put the pressure on Munster here.

the_doctor199

thomond2006 wrote: »

The league is pretty close at the moment, Ospreys winning tonight has put the pressure on Munster here.

Really helps Ulster out, even if they lose in Limerick, they'll have a 9 point lead at the halfway mark of the season.

awec

Whereas if we win in limerick...

Keep the faith! :P

phog

It's mad trying to predict the outcome without knowing the actual lineups but one thing you can be sure of is that Ulster won't be saying this is a game we can afford to lose. They may send down a weakened squad but they'll still feel thy can get the win. That's the beauty of rugby, the best team on paper doesn't always win.

As an aside the MRSC have announced that Rob Penney will be doing a preview to the game for the members in the MRSC bar on Saturday. Nice touch.

phog

Saw this being tweeted by @eamorugby

Can Munster force an Ulster breakdown?

Having squeezed out a tight win in Galway (12-16) Munster can feel they are jumping out of a frying pan into the fire with Ulster rolling into Limerick this Saturday evening. Are there enough superlatives for the RaboDirect PRO 12 runaway leaders at the midpoint of the season? Probably not. Unbeaten in the league this season with away wins in Swansea and Llanelli and of particular note away to Zebre and Treviso with under-strength sides, Ulster come to Thomond as very happy travellers. Furthermore their win against Leinster last weekend was only their second in nineteen attempts against Leinster, yes, that’s right, nineteen attempts. This Ulster side appears unburdened by history and undaunted by their opponents.


Since pipping Munster by a point (20-19) in Ravenhill in the dappled evening sunshine of September, Ulster’s stride has only been broken by Northampton Saints in the Heineken Cup this season and if Munster are going to beat Ulster, the lessons of the Saints' win and Munster’s own narrow loss need to be heeded.


It won’t come as a revelation to learn the sides that come closest to Ulster this year have battered the Northmen in the forwards. For Munster to win on Saturday they will need at least parity at the scrummage and line-out. Botha, Varley and Kilcoyne managed equality against Afoa, Brady and Court earlier this season and whoever trots out in the Red this weekend must as a bare minimum achieve the same result. Ulster quite rightly uses the scrum as a weapon and it has earned them four penalty tries in the league already this season (against Connacht, Edinburgh, Zebre and the full international front row of Leinster last weekend).


A quick glance across Ulster’s team-sheets and you can quickly grasp why defending a lineout against them is so hard. Without the injured Muller and Ferris Ulster’s back five in the scrum might contain four players happy at either lock or on the flank; with No. 8 Nick Williams being the exception. The range of targets off the touchline is key to Ulster’s success, with so many capable lineout operators they are a nightmare to play against. Couple this with a possible lock pairing of Iain Henderson and Robbie Diack, both extremely comfortable on the flanks and you have a pack bristling with pace and appetite for battle at the breakdown.


Earlier in the season Sean Dougall went toe-to-toe with Australian Sean Doyle (Irish qualified through a Clare Grandfather) but the Aussie hasn’t featured for Ulster since the Munster match so national squad rest days permitting, Chris Henry seems the likely fetcher for Ulster. Considering the master-class Henry gave in the HCup quarter final last April, this is not good news. However, since that defeat Munster’s own backrow options have improved significantly and whilst CJ Stander mends his hand, O’Donnell, Dougall, Butler, Ronan, Coughal and Dave O’Callaghan have all demonstrated enough to suggest that Munster might be able to crack Ulster at the breakdown.


A combative performance from Munster’s pack is a must, but it must be disciplined. Pienaar, Jackson, Payne and O’Connor are all capable of hammering Munster off the tee and this is probably the most important area for Munster at the weekend. If the home side can stay on the right side of Alain Rolland and still disrupt Ulster’s ball, our chances of getting a win will improve significantly. Given Rolland’s ubiquity as one of the World’s leading Referees currently, it should not be beyond the wit of our Video Analysts George Murray and Elliot Corcoran to have prepared a full dossier on the “do’s and don’ts” when Rolland is in the middle.


Behind the forwards Ulster bring one of the form players of the Northern Hemisphere Jared Payne to Limerick. He looks to be the complete player, great under the high ball, a solid tackler, howitzer sized boot on him, equally comfortable taking a “hit-up” as they say in League or looking to free up those around him with a beautifully deft passing game. With Trimble, Cave and Luke Marshall all on form too, Jackson and Pienaar’s only headache is who to release when they get the service. If the ball is slow, which it rarely has been so far this season, expect Nick Williams at first receiver to try and inject some pace into Ulster’s play.


Eleven games into the league, fifteen games into the season, is it wrong to be getting impatient with Munster’s own back line? For sure conditions have not favoured handling over the last month, but we are still yet to see the best out of our backs offensively. It may be that as the days get longer and drier and the footing firms up their full potency will be expressed on the paddock but currently Munster still seem one pass away from really cutting loose. If Downey starts at twelve again you would hope that his delightful hands will again have channels crackling around him as O’Dea, Howlett, Laulala, Hurley and Murphy all look for the space the totemic inside centre creates.


I don’t think Stringer did anything wrong against Connacht and so might merit starting again on Saturday and should he get the chance whatever ball Ulster give up will be spirited away from the breakdown at great pace. His speed of pass might be just enough for Keatley or O’Gara to launch our runners.


Saturday night the forecast looks set to be dry and chilly, ideal for rugby and a great chance for Munster to send out the old year with a win.


Finally if you are an MRSC member and going to the game, don't forget your membership card and get to the Supporter's Club Bar about an hour before kick-off where our Head Coach Rob Penney will be previewing the match and will field a few questions. Such an opportunity is not to be missed.


Munster: TBC
Ulster: TBC

At Thomond Park, 5.30pm.
Referee: Alain Rolland (IRFU, 53rd competition game)
Assistant Referees: Dudley Phillips, Sean Gallagher (both IRFU)
Citing Commissioner: Tom McCormack (IRFU)
TMO: Kevin Beggs (IRFU)

Live on RTE Sport and BBC NI


For rugby related tweets and other nonsense follow @eamorugby
eamonn keane at 09:17

awec

That's quite the tweet... :P

Digifriendly

the_doctor199 wrote: »

Really helps Ulster out, even if they lose in Limerick, they'll have a 9 point lead at the halfway mark of the season.

Scarlets looked poor from what I saw and far from title contenders.

phog

Digifriendly wrote: »

Scarlets looked poor from what I saw and far from title contenders.

That's what made our defeat to them in MP all the more difficult to accept, it's costing us now too.

leonard7

Ulster XV & replacements to face Munster, RaboDirect PRO12, Thomond Park, Sat 29th December, 5.30pm:
(15-9): A D'Arcy, C Cochrane, M Allen, L Marshall, C Gilroy; N O'Connor, P Marshall;
(1-8): C Black, R Herring, A Macklin, L Stevenson, N McComb, R Diack, M McComish, R Wilson;
Replacements (16-23): N Annett, R Lutton, T Court, A O'Connor, A Birch, M Heaney, S Olding, R Andrew.

the_doctor199

Munster team..

D Hurley; D Howlett capt, C Laulala, J Downey, S Zebo; I Keatley, C Murray; W du Preez, D Varley, BJ Botha; D O'Callaghan, B Holland; P O'Mahony, T O'Donnell, P Butler.
Replacements: M Sherry, M Horan, S Archer, Dave O'Callaghan, J Coughlan, P Stringer, R O'Gara, F Jones.

phog

leonard7 wrote: »

Ulster XV & replacements to face Munster, RaboDirect PRO12, Thomond Park, Sat 29th December, 5.30pm:
(15-9): A D'Arcy, C Cochrane, M Allen, L Marshall, C Gilroy; N O'Connor, P Marshall;
(1-8): C Black, R Herring, A Macklin, L Stevenson, N McComb, R Diack, M McComish, R Wilson;
Replacements (16-23): N Annett, R Lutton, T Court, A O'Connor, A Birch, M Heaney, S Olding, R Andrew.

Massive changes from last week, depending on the Munster team that's named I'd be hoping for a bp win for us. Who's captain?

Edit. Just seen the Munster team, strong team, looking a bp win. Would love to have seen Dineen or Barnes used and think Botha should have been rested.

thomond2006

(15-9): A D'Arcy, C Cochrane, M Allen, L Marshall, C Gilroy; N O'Connor, P Marshall;
(1-8): C Black, R Herring, A Macklin, L Stevenson, N McComb, R Diack, M McComish, R Wilson;
Replacements (16-23): N Annett, R Lutton, T Court, A O'Connor, A Birch, M Heaney, S Olding, R Andrew.

sixy

Well we have thrown that game which is disappointing but I suppose a few boys need a rest before a big January. Having said that, not a bad second team, hopefully they make some sort of game of it.