Social Media caused the suicide of a politician?

PeadarCo

Bichon Lover wrote: »

There is not a shred of evidence that social media contributed to Shane McEntee's suicide, his brother's rant set the whole thing off: the politicians and the commentariat think that if you repeat something often enough it becomes fact.

His brother also mentioned things such as text messages etc not just social media. As far what pushed the man over the edge exactly no one unfortunately will ever know. However bullying and abuse coming from various directions was definitely a factor and those closed to him attest this. These are people who knew about many of the issues that troubled the man leading up to his death. How big a factor this was is open to debate but it can't be dismissed out of hand.

Bichon Lover wrote: »

McEntee provoked people eg telling those whose care allowances were cut to suck it up. If you do that, you must expect retribution.

As far as him provoking a response. We live in a democracy use your vote to get a politician/government out and try to persuade others if you happen to disagree. It was exactly the results which come from that attitude in the post quoted above that his brother was speaking out against.

People have to deal with the fact governments don't have magic wands and have to deal with that unpleasant fact without resorting to vile abuse which can be delivered through various means not just social media. Everyone who does there job is entitled to do it without being harassed.

tayto lover

PeadarCo wrote: »

His brother also mentioned things such as text messages etc not just social media. As far what pushed the man over the edge exactly no one unfortunately will ever know. However bullying and abuse coming from various directions was definitely a factor and those closed to him attest this. These are people who knew about many of the issues that troubled the man leading up to his death. How big a factor this was is open to debate but it can't be dismissed out of hand.



As far as him provoking a response. We live in a democracy use your vote to get a politician/government out and try to persuade others if you happen to disagree. It was exactly the results which come from that attitude in the post quoted above that his brother was speaking out against.

People have to deal with the fact governments don't have magic wands and have to deal with that unpleasant fact without resorting to vile abuse which can be delivered through various means not just social media. Everyone who does there job is entitled to do it without being harassed.

Are you sure they didn't exaggerate the whole social media/text thing just because it provided an anonymous target at which to vent their anger?
There were other rumours circulating too giving alternative reasons for why the poor man might have taken that course of action.

expectationlost

i'll just leave this here
Rise in suicides due to debt, not social media: Finance expert

PeadarCo

tayto lover wrote: »

Are you sure they didn't exaggerate the whole social media/text thing just because it provided an anonymous target at which to vent their anger?
There were other rumours circulating too giving alternative reasons for why the poor man might have taken that course of action.

I am aware of some of the other rumours that have gone around. I'd agree that there were definitely other factors involved. Again no one will ever know the exact thing that pushed him over the edge.

I'd take your point that blaming bullying gives the family an easier target but by the same token those alternative reasons could simply be a way for those people who hurled the abuse and those who would support their actions to excuse their behaviour. Behaviour which in any decent society should be unacceptable even if it doesn't cause a person to commit suicide.

Again no one will ever know and I'd agree that no reason can dismissed out of hand. But I'd place my assumptions better in those that actually know the person not those who don't and wouldn't be privy to the man's demons. I would acknowledge that the family will not allow all those demons to be made public. But in the end they are the people who will debate this question the longest and are the people most deserving of the answer.

However it can't be disputed bullying via means such as social media had an impact. How big an impact how much no one will know.

K-9

expectationlost wrote: »

i'll just leave this here
Rise in suicides due to debt, not social media: Finance expert

Odd thing is that the suicide numbers haven't risen, just the perception that they are on the rise. There are issues over how they are categorised but that issue has been there years.

expectationlost

K-9 wrote: »

Odd thing is that the suicide numbers haven't risen, just the perception that they are on the rise. There are issues over how they are categorised but that issue has been there years.

Number of suicides in Ireland rose 7% last year, CSO figures reveal

It has increased among men from a rate of 8.4 in 1980 to a peak of 23.5 in 1998 to 20.0 per 100,000 in 2009.

K-9

expectationlost wrote: »

Number of suicides in Ireland rose 7% last year, CSO figures reveal

It has increased among men from a rate of 8.4 in 1980 to a peak of 23.5 in 1998 to 20.0 per 100,000 in 2009.

That's the odd thing, they've fallen back from 1998, though showed a rise in 2011 after a sharp decrease in 2010.

expectationlost

so tom hayes is going have his committee meeting tommorrow talk about the abuse polticians get heaveliy hinting at shane mcentee yet we're all still expected to say nothing, another dogs in the street event in irish politics, people knowing but not saying, while we go on a regulatory wild goose chase.

while cowardly political correspondents chase after a story they're comfortable telling like kids chasing the ball in peewee soccer.

expectationlost

K-9 wrote: »

That's the odd thing, they've fallen back from 1998, though showed a rise in 2011 after a sharp decrease in 2010.

no "the odd thing" was you said they "hadn't risen" without backing it up, while trying to distract from the issue of debt

K-9

expectationlost wrote: »

no "the odd thing" was you said they "hadn't risen" without backing it up

Well they haven't risen to 1998 levels, even in 2011, largely stayed even considering the rise in population.

So my point that they haven't risen still stands, that the perception that they have risen still is out there, your facts confirm that. We have this idea they are rising, when 1998 was far worse with less of a population.

http://economic-incentives.blogspot.ie/2012/11/a-special-case-in-statistics.html

It's still a massive problem but there's an element of scaremongering, 2011 is on a par with 2008.

2010 showed a big drop with 2009, didn't see too many headlines about the drop in suicide deaths linked to debt why a year later are they linked to debt?

Correlation does not equal causation with these stats.

seamus

tayto lover wrote: »

"Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me"

This is half of the problem with dealing with mental illness in Ireland. "Harden up and stop whinging" is basically what this old rhyme tells people. "Names can't hurt you, so just ignore them".

Not great advice, as we now know. In fact, it's the exact opposite of what you should do. Personally I would rather be beaten black and blue and have multiple broken bones than be subjected to a campaign of bullying and harrassment. Broken bones heal faster and hurt less.

Bichon Lover

PeadarCo wrote: »

His brother also mentioned things such as text messages etc not just social media. As far what pushed the man over the edge exactly no one unfortunately will ever know. However bullying and abuse coming from various directions was definitely a factor and those closed to him attest this. These are people who knew about many of the issues that troubled the man leading up to his death. How big a factor this was is open to debate but it can't be dismissed out of hand.



As far as him provoking a response. We live in a democracy use your vote to get a politician/government out and try to persuade others if you happen to disagree. It was exactly the results which come from that attitude in the post quoted above that his brother was speaking out against.

People have to deal with the fact governments don't have magic wands and have to deal with that unpleasant fact without resorting to vile abuse which can be delivered through various means not just social media. Everyone who does there job is entitled to do it without being harassed.

Don't you regard McEntee's remarks about cuts to carers' allowances as "vile abuse"? I do. My cousin, the most peaceful man I know, was so angry he travelled to Dublin to protest outside Leinster House.
I repeat there is no evidence of the alleged abuse. If it is there, produce it so we can judge for ourselves.

expectationlost

K-9 wrote: »

Well they haven't risen to 1998 levels, even in 2011, largely stayed even considering the rise in population.

So my point that they haven't risen still stands, that the perception that they have risen still is out there, your facts confirm that. We have this idea they are rising, when 1998 was far worse with less of a population.

http://economic-incentives.blogspot.ie/2012/11/a-special-case-in-statistics.html

It's still a massive problem but there's an element of scaremongering, 2011 is on a par with 2008.

2010 showed a big drop with 2009, didn't see too many headlines about the drop in suicide deaths linked to debt why a year later are they linked to debt?

Correlation does not equal causation with these stats.

so he'd sold his bar http://www.meathchronicle.ie/news/meathnorth/articles/2011/08/24/4006287-over-the-bar-farrell-swaps-points-for-pints-in-nobber-

the business having a deficit of 120k http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/ireland/article1182302.ece


bought two houses mid boom, mortgage while their value has since halved

MCENTEE, Shane
Occupational Income …….. (1) Landlord: 4 Priory Park, Navan, Co. Meath;
(2) Landlord: 7 Foster Close, Ardee, Co. Louth;
(3) Publican: Dee Local, Nobber, Co. Meath.
http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/tdssenators/registerofmembersinterests/

but you don't think debt was weighing on him

PeadarCo

Bichon Lover wrote: »

Don't you regard McEntee's remarks about cuts to carers' allowances as "vile abuse"? I do. My cousin, the most peaceful man I know, was so angry he travelled to Dublin to protest outside Leinster House.
I repeat there is no evidence of the alleged abuse. If it is there, produce it so we can judge for ourselves.

I consider his statement merely to be a hard fact that many people can't accept. It is unfortunate that carers suffered the cuts and the government has decided to stick with it. However even if it wasn't carers someone else would have suffered. The country is broke. We are spending more money on day to day items than we are taking in in tax's. Its inevitable people will suffer what ever decision is made. Its amazing after 4/5 years some people still don't realise/want to accept this.

If people believe they have a magic wand please by all means use it already.

There is evidence. Here's the link from the first podt of this thread.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fallout-from-budget-and-cyber-abuse-troubled-late-minister-3334469.html

I assume if you search around I assume you'll find plenty if they haven't been deleted. The family also I assume would have access to phone and texts etc. Whether they chose to release them is their business.

If people choose not to believe the family and instead others who don't know the person then there's nothing anyone can do about. As I said earlier 4/5 years into a recession some people can't accept the very simple fact the country is broke. Suicide is obviously not as clear cut and as I said in previous posts there were other reasons but bullying was definitely one. How big a factor you believe it to be is you to decide but like the family a person will take their make their own prejudices when making that decision.

K-9

expectationlost wrote: »

but you don't think debt was weighing on him

Really puzzled how you derived that from my posts, I was talking generally on statistics.

As others have said repeatedly it usually is several things, money could well have been an issue, standing behind tough, unpopular, stressful decisions the Government was making, online abuse over the same decisions, other stuff we don't have a clue about because we couldn't possibly know.

Just as blaming social media is too easy an answer so is excusing online abuse and pointing at money problems. Some people do take abuse online seriously, just because it is water of a ducks back to others doesn't mean we should ignore or excuse it.

Scofflaw

Interesting article in the IT, with some rather less hysterical comments on social media: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2013/0112/1224328727249.html

John Lyons refers to the “horrendous things” people say on Facebook, which have so consumed discourse about politics since the tragic death of the junior minister Shane McEntee before Christmas.

“A common thread would have been, ‘Yiz are a pack of liars’. . . ‘You have no shame.’ It mightn’t sound that bad, but when they’re coming at you from all directions there’s no escape.

“I don’t carry Facebook or Twitter on my phone, because I don’t need to be looking at that when I’m trying to do things. And the temptation would always be there to click on the app for Facebook before bed, and you’d see so many things that would turn your stomach from a lot of people who’ve never met me.”

Lyons describes this as adult cyberbullying. “You can get into an engagement with someone who has a predisposed opinion and who doesn’t even want to talk. "

I don't think any of that is reasonably deniable, and I do think that the "suck it up, gut it out" brigade have either never been on the receiving end of such stuff, or have forgotten that politicians are human.

cordially,
Scofflaw

VinLieger

TBH i dont think print journalists actually have too much of a problem with the "cyber bullying" they are just pissed that their medium hasnt adapted in time and their jobs are seriously under threat by people who dont have the same qualifications and therefore in their eyes dont have a right to be competing with them, they are simply using this cyber bullying angle to attack their own biggest threat, again id ask how many of them would be for making writing under an unknown pseudonym illegal?

Scofflaw

VinLieger wrote: »

TBH i dont think print journalists actually have too much of a problem with the "cyber bullying" they are just pissed that their medium hasnt adapted in time and their jobs are seriously under threat by people who dont have the same qualifications and therefore in their eyes dont have a right to be competing with them, they are simply using this cyber bullying angle to attack their own biggest threat, again id ask how many of them would be for making writing under an unknown pseudonym illegal?

It's certainly the case that people usually find an unpleasant article/column about them upsetting, but - social creatures that we are - widespread public vilification is usually more upsetting. So, while I'd agree that journalists are glossing over their own use of anonymity or pseudonomity, there's a difference in scale. And, it has to be said, often in tone - papers in general wouldn't publish the kind of raw outpourings of hatred, ill-wishing, and insult that online sources can provide.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Chips Lovell

Their comments sections sometimes do.

tayto lover

seamus wrote: »

This is half of the problem with dealing with mental illness in Ireland. "Harden up and stop whinging" is basically what this old rhyme tells people. "Names can't hurt you, so just ignore them".

Not great advice, as we now know. In fact, it's the exact opposite of what you should do. Personally I would rather be beaten black and blue and have multiple broken bones than be subjected to a campaign of bullying and harrassment. Broken bones heal faster and hurt less.

It's amazing then that there aren't far more gardai committing suicide with the amount of abuse they take o our streets at night. I was on the town of Dundalk on a Saturday night a few weeks ago and the amount of snorts, pig chants and other abuse aimed at them as they controlled a serious row amazed me.

However i'd much prefer that if I was a garda than having them showering me with rocks and bottles.

oscarBravo

tayto lover wrote: »

However i'd much prefer that if I was a garda than having them showering me with rocks and bottles.

...and if I was a Garda, I'd rather be showered with rocks and bottles than be shot at with heavy artillery, but that doesn't make it OK to throw rocks and bottles - or verbal abuse - at them.

The whole "not everyone who's bullied commits suicide, therefore bullying doesn't cause suicide, therefore we don't need to do anything about bullying" line of argument is some pretty weak sauce.

tayto lover

oscarBravo wrote: »

...and if I was a Garda, I'd rather be showered with rocks and bottles than be shot at with heavy artillery, but that doesn't make it OK to throw rocks and bottles - or verbal abuse - at them.

The whole "not everyone who's bullied commits suicide, therefore bullying doesn't cause suicide, therefore we don't need to do anything about bullying" line of argument is some pretty weak sauce.

Yes it's a bit like saying that social media abuse is a real killer and than not tell us what the abuse consisted of. Weak sauce.

oscarBravo

tayto lover wrote: »

Yes it's a bit like saying that social media abuse is a real killer and than not tell us what the abuse consisted of.

You don't believe there's abuse on social media?

tayto lover

oscarBravo wrote: »

You don't believe there's abuse on social media?

Of course there is but is it causing suicide on it's own? No I don't believe that at all.

K-9

tayto lover wrote: »

Of course there is but is it causing suicide on it's own? No I don't believe that at all.

Not on its own. So you think it could be a contributory factor?

tayto lover

K-9 wrote: »

Not on its own. So you think it could be a contributory factor?

I don't believe it is the sole cause of this poor man's death.
Nor do I believe that his comments regarding people spending their grants on hotels caused any suicides.
Both could be annoying but that is about it.

K-9

tayto lover wrote: »

I don't believe it is the sole cause of this poor man's death.

So it could be a contributing factor then, I have to presume that as you didn't directly answer the question and went on a tangent.

tayto lover

K-9 wrote: »

So it could be a contributing factor then, I have to presume that as you didn't directly answer the question and went on a tangent.

Like the other poster I would have to know what was said.
If it was just general abuse regularly aimed at politicians then I doubt it would cause any ill effects.
No tangent at all. I think people are using this sad episode for their own purposes.

K-9

tayto lover wrote: »

Like the other poster I would have to know what was said.
If it was just general abuse regularly aimed at politicians then I doubt it would cause any ill effects.
No tangent at all. I think people are using this sad episode for their own purposes.

Why do you have to know what was said though?

Are the comments from his brother and office staff not enough to go on?

oscarBravo

tayto lover wrote: »

If it was just general abuse regularly aimed at politicians then I doubt it would cause any ill effects.

You don't think that any of the abuse regularly aimed at politicians is beyond the pale? No matter how abusive, how personal, how offensive - the right of an anonymous randomer to be abusive on the Internet trumps the target's right not to be abused?

tayto lover

K-9 wrote: »

Why do you have to know what was said though?

Are the comments from his brother and office staff not enough to go on?

As I said earlier it is maybe easier for the family to believe this was the cause instead of having to face other reasons.
There is always more than one reason for suicide.

tayto lover

oscarBravo wrote: »

You don't think that any of the abuse regularly aimed at politicians is beyond the pale? No matter how abusive, how personal, how offensive - the right of an anonymous randomer to be abusive on the Internet trumps the target's right not to be abused?

Beyond the Pale maybe.
Suicide causing - hardly. I am sure many other politicians have received worse abuse and it had little effect on them.
If similar abuse was shouted at him on the street would it have the same effect in your belief or is it just the fact that it was written?

Chips Lovell

If people had been shouting abuse on the street at him rather than through social media, I'm sure his family would have complained about that instead.

Again, the issue here isn't the medium, it's what people are saying through the medium.

Given what I've seen some people subjected to, I've no problem believing that these kind of hate campaigns can be a contributing factor to suicide. In some instances, I could even see it being the sole cause.

As oscarBravo said, just because everyone who endures it doesn't commit suicide doesn't mean that it can't drive some to it.

For example, lots of people suffer from depression. Only a few commit suicide because of it, but that doesn't mean their depression was a contributing cause.

Scofflaw

tayto lover wrote: »

Beyond the Pale maybe.
Suicide causing - hardly. I am sure many other politicians have received worse abuse and it had little effect on them.
If similar abuse was shouted at him on the street would it have the same effect in your belief or is it just the fact that it was written?

If it was shouted at them with the animosity and persistence of the abuse on social media, sure. Suicide after repeated harassment is common, so common in fact that it seems bizarre people are trying to make out that just because the harassment takes place through social media it suddenly doesn't have the same effect.

cordially,
Scofflaw

tayto lover

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

If people had been shouting abuse on the street at him rather than through social media, I'm sure his family would have complained about that instead.

Again, the issue here isn't the medium, it's what people are saying through the medium.

Given what I've seen some people subjected to, I've no problem believing that these kind of hate campaigns can be a contributing factor to suicide. In some instances, I could even see it being the sole cause.

As oscarBravo said, just because everyone who endures it doesn't commit suicide doesn't mean that it can't drive some to it.

For example, lots of people suffer from depression. Only a few commit suicide because of it, but that doesn't mean their depression was a contributing cause.

In what circumstances could you believe it may have been the sole reason for suicide?

oscarBravo

tayto lover wrote: »

In what circumstances could you believe it may have been the sole reason for suicide?

Why are you hung up on it being the sole reason?

It's almost as if online bullying that was the sole factor leading to suicide would be an urgent problem that required a prompt remedy, but online bullying that was just one of a number of factors leading to suicide must be protected at all costs.

I'm not understanding that line of argument at all.

tayto lover

oscarBravo wrote: »

Why are you hung up on it being the sole reason?

It's almost as if online bullying that was the sole factor leading to suicide would be an urgent problem that required a prompt remedy, but online bullying that was just one of a number of factors leading to suicide must be protected at all costs.

I'm not understanding that line of argument at all.

Did you read his post?

I am saying its NOT the sole reason for suicide.
If someone thinks it is then I want to know in what circumstances they believe it is.
I am interested.

Chips Lovell

When you see someone endure a particular vicious campaign of abuse and bullying. The Phoebe Prince case is one example.

oscarBravo

tayto lover wrote: »

I am saying its NOT the sole reason for suicide.

And I'm saying I don't care whether it is or not, and I don't understand why you've been banging the "sole reason" drum for so long.

If something is, or might be, a factor in causing a suicide, then we need to have a rational conversation about what can be done about that. So far, the bulk of the conversation has been about the fact that there were other contributory factors, as if that somehow makes this one factor irrelevant.

tayto lover

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

When you see someone endure a particular vicious campaign of abuse and bullying. The Phoebe Prince case is one example.

We have examples of suicide everyday in Ireland.
I have been quite close to people who have taken that course of action and I have never seen one or heard of one where there were not several reasons, depression, drugs, debt, fear, death, illness, alcoholism, love, marriage break-down, separation, revenge etc. You name it.
You can bet your life Phoebe Prince had more than one reason.
I am unconvinced of the Social Media thing on it's own.

oscarBravo

tayto lover wrote: »

You can bet your life Phoebe Prince had more than one reason.

And, because none of those reasons were the sole reason for her tragic death, we can safely ignore all of them? I mean, it's only sole reasons we need to worry about, right?

tayto lover

oscarBravo wrote: »

And, because none of those reasons were the sole reason for her tragic death, we can safely ignore all of them? I mean, it's only sole reasons we need to worry about, right?

We can ignore nothing except the title of this thread.

oscarBravo

tayto lover wrote: »

We can ignore nothing except the title of this thread.

...and my point, apparently.

tayto lover

oscarBravo wrote: »

...and my point, apparently.

I don't get your point so maybe you'd care to make it more clearly.

Going Forward

Have the claims made been substantiated?
Was there "vicious" or "personal" abuse published online?

Was it more vociferous than any posted about other TD's?

Has anyone here come across it it? (I'm not looking for any excerpts.)

expectationlost

looking for the other reasons will put this one in context, the reasons they not being looked at is because of cowardly reporters and editors, there a misplace martyrdom of the dead, we should have healthy disrespect for our dead.

separetly but connected the death of Aaron Swartz, lots of people saying how he's "been killed by the DOJ" but he had a history of medical problems, depression that he wrote about himself.

seems people prefer matyrdom

KyussBishop

Aaron Swartz was looking at 30 years in prison, and even if he won, he would have lost every bit of money he had just defending himself; there's no question that the DOJ was persecuting him, because it was MIT and JSTOR who were the people whose license agreement he breached, and they didn't want him to be prosecuted, but the DOJ went after him anyway, to make an example out of him.

There's a significant recent history of the US government throwing the book at anyone who opposes them politically, and spinning the most minor of offences into threats of multiple-decades-long imprisonment, many times as long as what many rapists/murderers get.

A bunch of lawyers and litigious government can destroy your life and drive you to suicide, far more successfully than ire from social media.

G Power

KyussBishop wrote: »

Aaron Swartz was looking at 30 years in prison, and even if he won, he would have lost every bit of money he had just defending himself; there's no question that the DOJ was persecuting him, because it was MIT and JSTOR who were the people whose license agreement he breached, and they didn't want him to be prosecuted, but the DOJ went after him anyway, to make an example out of him.

There's a significant recent history of the US government throwing the book at anyone who opposes them politically, and spinning the most minor of offences into threats of multiple-decades-long imprisonment, many times as long as what many rapists/murderers get.

A bunch of lawyers and litigious government can destroy your life and drive you to suicide, far more successfully than ire from social media.

i really cannot believe that after all the info that's come out about america and it's antics these last few years, people still deny it to the hilt that they are anything other than bullies :eek:

tayto lover

oscarBravo wrote: »

And I'm saying I don't care whether it is or not, and I don't understand why you've been banging the "sole reason" drum for so long.

If something is, or might be, a factor in causing a suicide, then we need to have a rational conversation about what can be done about that. So far, the bulk of the conversation has been about the fact that there were other contributory factors, as if that somehow makes this one factor irrelevant.

But the family of the deceased didn't say there were other factors did they?
They said Social Media abuse caused it.

oscarBravo

tayto lover wrote: »

But the family of the deceased didn't say there were other factors did they?
They said Social Media abuse caused it.

All of which, apparently, means that we don't need to worry about whether or not abuse on social media is a contributory factor to suicide.