Do you personally know any Irish Jews?

Chuck Stone

fryup wrote: »

the jews (and the protestants for that matter) were cold-shouldered out of the republic

Hitch that Irish Protestant persecution complex to the Jewish reality of persecution why doncha.

Pathetic.

Duggys Housemate

fryup wrote: »

the jews (and the protestants for that matter) were cold-shouldered out of the republic

What with all the discrimination in law etc.

Oh wait, no. At the height of catholic Ireland we had Jewish mayors in major Irish cities. At that time Catholics in the North were discriminated against in law.

TwoBirds

Worked with a Jewish guy for a while. He was an absolute fruitcake incidentally, but I don't think that had anything to do with his religion.

Duggys Housemate

InTheTrees wrote: »

Well yes, you can make guesses. You could guess that someone from Ireland is a Catholic too.

However I meant that scientifically you cant identify a jew from DNA.

In other words judaism is not a race.

This lad disagrees:

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/dna-links-prove-jews-are-a-race-says-genetics-expert-1.428664

steddyeddy

Race isn't a biologically sound term. I wouldn't personally count jews as a race but there are definatly certain jewish populations that you could identify from DNA. Particulary those who are prone to tay sach's disease which affects certain jewish populations

Wibbs

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

This lad disagrees:

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/dna-links-prove-jews-are-a-race-says-genetics-expert-1.428664

Granted, but while I have contended you could make an educated guess about origins and group affiliations from an individuals DNA and reckon "Jewish" or "Irish" or "Papuan" there's a lot of variability involved. Humans get jiggy with each other so often throughout history the lines are very blurred(sure we even got jiggy with other non modern humans). Yes certain groups are more obviously alike and that would include (in this case) certain Jewish subgroups, but differences are tiny. Culture has far more an impact.

A while back there was talk of Irish Travellers being a "separate" ethnicity to the rest of the Irish based on their genetics. Arse IMHO. What it showed was a long enough period of inter related marriage so family lines were narrower than in the general population. I'm quite sure there are towns and areas in Ireland where you would find similar. Indeed a geneticist chap I knew years back described such an area where a large proportion of people were near cousins.

In cases like that you're naturally going to find some traits more common than background levels. Things like diseases etc. You could say that about some subcultures within the Jewish world. The intelligence aspect may be genetic, however I would contend it's far far more cultural. If group A value education in their culture, you end up with more educated members of that culture and their children grow up in such an environment and so on. After time this will make a difference. If group B value say physical strength again the same will be positively selected for over time.

For a start you can see this vary over time. Look at say Iraqis. At one point they were about the most advanced feckers on the planet and would have swepted the boards if Nobel prizes had been invented. A society of great thinkers and today? Look at the Greeks. Those buggers damn near invented "the west" and today? Or look at the Jews. While(like pretty much every culture) they had fine thinkers, 2000 years ago they were in the tuppenny ha'penny place in the sciences compared to the Italians and the Greeks and the Chinese.

While I would contend that modern humanity can be broadly delineated along population lines for all sorts of reasons, sometimes genetics gets too much credit. It's the tech de jour, so is applied to everything, but sometimes IMHO it can be a case of if all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

Madam_X

fryup wrote: »

the jews (and the protestants for that matter) were cold-shouldered out of the republic

In your Eoghan Harris-ish head.

SimonLynch

fryup wrote: »

the jews (and the protestants for that matter) were cold-shouldered out of the republic

Never came across any Jews who felt that way in Stratford. More like a lack of marriage opportunities, many move to Manchester and London for this but still consider themselves Irish and have a strong affection for Ireland.

looksee

Armelodie wrote: »

Christ on a bike.. Would someone please close this thread, it's obvious OP is making a list..

List of what? And after starting the thread the OP hasn't been back.

lapsed

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

What with all the discrimination in law etc.

Oh wait, no. At the height of catholic Ireland we had Jewish mayors in major Irish cities. At that time Catholics in the North were discriminated against

in law.

O/T I know, but what law(s) ?

fryup

fryup wrote: »

the jews (and the protestants for that matter) were cold-shouldered out of the republic

Madam_X wrote: »

In your Eoghan Harris-ish head.

is that so....well why did they leave then?? why did their numbers fall dramatically...

POGROM of Limerick

and see what siuin has to say here...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=82360631&postcount=119

Miss Lockhart

I'm surprised to see the official figures so low.

I went to college with a Jewish guy. He was the most pompous snob I've ever met. I also worked for a Jewish guy for a short summer job. He was great craic and a bit of a loon.

Carlos Orange

fryup wrote: »

is that so....well why did they leave then?? why did their numbers fall dramatically...

POGROM of Limerick

Doesn't look all that dramatic a fall to me. Certainly less than the fall for the Church of Ireland , Methodists or Presbyterians over 1891-2011. I imagine the leaving had more to do with events shortly after the population peak (1946) than events 40 years before that.

Toby Take a Bow

Wibbs wrote: »

So you can understand them feeling more "Jewish" than "Irish/British/German/etc". After all if the society sees you as "Jew" first(regardless of background or even practice of faith) it makes sense for you to do the same. Look at some of the stuff on this thread and it's very tame(noses? Seriously?), but there's an awful lot of guff about regarding them as a group.

I've met a fair amount of Jewish people during my time, from many, many different countries (Ireland, America, Israel, as well as European countries) and I've never met one that has described him or herself as Jewish above their country, so I don't really buy into 'understanding' how Jews can identify with their faith over their nationality. It was just a poster claiming Jews identified as Jewish, and is similar to the fear of 'ethnic' minorities identify with a sinister, foreign threat over the homeland.

bluecode wrote: »

Interesting that my comment that I was 'pro Semitic' should generate several adverse comments. As if admiring a people or a race is somehow the moral equivalent and justification for those who hold an opposite view.

What if I said I was pro French or pro American or pro Arab? I doubt the reaction would be similar.

Apparently it seems you can only be anti Semitic or simply hold no opinion positive or negative.

Nope, ascribing positive (or negative) characteristics to any race or group of people is what I was criticising. But the reason why you were commenting about Semitic people, and why my comment was reacting to it, was because, yep, we were discussing Jewish people.

Benny_Cake

fryup wrote: »

is that so....well why did they leave then?? why did their numbers fall dramatically...

POGROM of Limerick

and see what siuin has to say here...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=82360631&postcount=119

Better economic opportunities elsewhere and the creation of the state of Israel I'd imagine, combined with the fact that it's easier to havean active spiritual life where there is a larger community.As mentioned, the community continued to grow for many decades after the Limerick pogram, so that wasn't responsible, although it did lead to the end of the small Limerick community.

Only a fool would deny that incidences of anti-Semitism have taken place in Ireland but it is unlikely that theyhave been the decisive factor in the overall decline.I think,and hope, that the type of scumbag who thinks it's ok to dump bloody children's shoes at a synagogue is a rarity in this country.

im invisible

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

This lad disagrees:

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/dna-links-prove-jews-are-a-race-says-genetics-expert-1.428664

havnt read it all, but i dont think he mentions mitochodrial DNA, and the that it is passed down the maternal line, and the fact that the Jewish faith is passed down the maternal line, it should be fairly straightforward to find mutations that are unique to different tribes,

delthedriver

Perhaps it is time to wrap this one up. I would like to thank all the contributors , especially Siuin for her valuable contribution.

Best Wishes

Smashius_Clay

Armelodie wrote: »

Christ on a bike.. Would someone please close this thread, it's obvious OP is making a list..

I hope you are joking. If not, go fuck yourself.

Madam_X

fryup wrote: »

is that so....well why did they leave then?? why did their numbers fall dramatically...

POGROM of Limerick

and see what siuin has to say here...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=82360631&postcount=119

Yeh I read what Siuin said, and thanked it. The above still doesn't mean Jews were cold-shouldered out of the republic, much as you'd like that to be the case.

evolving_doors

Smashius_Clay wrote: »

I hope you are joking. If not, go f[SIZE="2"]u[/SIZE]ck yourself.

Relax man I'm joking...

And.... Go f[SIZE="3"]u[/SIZE]ck yourself too for not getting my Jewish humour...

SimonLynch

Armelodie wrote: »

Relax man I'm joking...

And.... Go fuck yourself too for not getting my Jewish humour...

These threads never end well in Ireland :mad: Went to Stratford in the 80s, second day, sneaked out for a coffee and a smoke in the cafe behind the 108 with three other degenerates, was asked to name the Jew out of the three of them, failed miserably. Was struck at the time how they never used their religion/ethnicity as a crutch and just mixed in. Jewish humour is top notch too

Pat Mustard

Rhys Essien wrote: »

George Hook is from Jewtown in Cork.(No 79.Albert Road)

In relation to Jewtown, I was just looking at the online census for Hibernian Buildings, Albert Road, Cork.

In the 1901 census, Hibernian Buildings has been misspelled 'Hibernica Buildings', but it's the right place. Searching against heads of households only, there were 68 Jewish families in Cork, of which 22 Jewish families lived in Hibernian Buildings.

No wonder it was called Jewtown.

In the 1911 census, the same search parameters showed 67 Jewish families in Cork, of which 6 Jewish families lived at Hibernian Buildings.

Most were from Russia, orginally. There were lots of pedlars and drapers, with a progression into other occupations by 1911.

According to the history already helpfully linked by Bluewolf, it seems that many of Cork's Jews either emigrated or integrated into the local community by marrying into Church of Ireland families. There is no mention of intermarrying with Catholics, which leads me to wonder about whether the Catholic Church forbade it at the time.

If there was a peak of 450-500 Jews in Cork in 1939, then it seems that a very small community has made an outstanding constribution to society, noticeable to this day in spheres of education, the arts, music, law and politics, amongst other things. I am blatantly stealing Rhys Essien's previous references to Lewis Glucksman, Aloys Fleischmann and Gerald Goldberg, but they say that imitation is flattery.

Only two Jewish families left in Cork now, it seems. A pity really.

fryup

fryup wrote: »

is that so....well why did they leave then?? why did their numbers fall dramatically...

POGROM of Limerick

and see what siuin has to say here...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=82360631&postcount=119

Madam_X wrote: »

Yeh I read what Siuin said, and thanked it. The above still doesn't mean Jews were cold-shouldered out of the republic, much as you'd like that to be the case.

well it certainly doesn't make them feel welcome now does it

Madam_X

fryup wrote: »

well it certainly doesn't make them feel welcome now does it

No. Didn't suggest it did. Unfortunately anti-semitism is in many societies - seemingly worse the further east one travels in Europe, and there is anti-semitism here too unfortunately. Even one instance of it is too much, but the existence of it does not mean it is endemic here and that Jews were cold-shouldered out of Ireland.

It's just said by Irish people who like to say Irish people (but not them) are really backwards etc.

Miss Lockhart

fryup wrote: »

oh ffs:rolleyes:

So, are you contending that Ireland has a particularly bad record of anti-semitism by international standards, either now or historically?

TwoBirds

TwoBirds wrote: »

Worked with a Jewish guy for a while. He was an absolute fruitcake incidentally, but I don't think that had anything to do with his religion.

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

I went to college with a Jewish guy. He was the most pompous snob I've ever met. I also worked for a Jewish guy for a short summer job. He was great craic and a bit of a loon.

Curiouser and curiouser... Not the head offices of major retailer, by any chance?!

LadyMayBelle

I work for a Jewish charity in London; one of a handful of non Jewish employees. Don't know any at all personally in Ireland..

Miss Lockhart

TwoBirds wrote: »

Curiouser and curiouser... Not the head offices of major retailer, by any chance?!

No, not connected to retail at all - an outdoor job.

steddyeddy

fryup wrote: »

is that so....well why did they leave then?? why did their numbers fall dramatically...

POGROM of Limerick

and see what siuin has to say here...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=82360631&postcount=119

Hey I think you're on to something actually.....but dont stop there either, I just noticed that I didn't see any native americans in Ireland!! We must have Ira/catholic/irished/anything else you hated them out of the republic too!

In presenting a historical argument you have to present reasoning to back up an ascertation beyond there isn't much (insert culture/religion here) in Ireland. If you dont it just comes across as the standard "we're not in charge anymore" unionist dribble.