Criminalise Bullying

gozunda

Under Irish Law bullying as a form of assault remains largely outside prosecution.

Those that are bullied and suffer harm from the activities of bullies - online or actual remain powerless to stop or initiate legal action against the perpetrator(s) for the harm that has been inflicted upon them.

The end result is that many who are bullied feel they have no recourse to reporting and stopping such bullying and a proportion of these sadly go on to take their own lives.

The one law that is the exception deals with persistent victimisation by electronic means, stalking etc is only relevant where it can be proved the victimisation was persistent and where the perpetrator was not normally in regular contact with the victim.

As a result employees in work, students in education etc have no proper legal recourse and are unable to stop or prevent the continuation of such behaviour by perpetrators unless actual physical assault takes place

In the wake of a number of recent high-profile teen suicides linked to online abuse, the Minister for Justice Alan Shatter said laws existed to punish those behind such harassment.
Mr Shatter has admitted that there were some problems in bringing successful prosecutions against bullies under present legislation, the Non-fatal Offences against the Person Act.
The difficulties involved proving that the harassment was persistent. Mr Shatter has asked the Law Reform Commission to look at the difficulties and make suggestions for improving the use of the current laws.

Source:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fallout-from-budget-and-cyber-abuse-troubled-late-minister-3334469.html

I believe it is time that bullying as an assault against the person is criminalised to enable those that are bullied to stop such behaviour but also that by making such activities illegal it will act as a deterent to others who would bully others

This has already been done in other countries. It's about time something is done in this country.

Fr_Dougal

Or, we could just like, educate people?

goose_gladwell

was hounded out of a job while overseas as a twenty year old , employer was pathetic in his inability or refusal to deal with the problem head on , most employers pay lip service to the idea of opposing bully , they need to be made aware that their willfull impotence will have consequences

mirekb

goose_gladwell wrote: »

was hounded out of a job while overseas as a twenty year old , employer was pathetic in his inability or refusal to deal with the problem head on , most employers pay lip service to the idea of opposing bully , they need to be made aware that their willfull impotence will have consequences

Unfortunately this can be true in some schools too.

goose_gladwell

mirekb wrote: »

Unfortunately this can be true in some schools too.

absolutely

mikom

*awaits introduction of bullying levy*

MistyCheese

Our path is clear...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7q1zidnAP60

Lone Stone

so basically what this wold be used for is arresting people for posting their opinions on a politicians facebook page.

gozunda

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Or, we could just like, educate people?

Yes education has its role to play and I get what you are saying but I do not believe that as a solution, education would be suggested as as the sole means of protecting individuals from physical assault for example

Bullying is a direct attack against an individual and is often persistand and insidous and often results in the victim suffering severe harm over an extended period

Bullying is a form of assault - it is an actual psychological assault and just as as physical assault is a criminal act by the same process persistant psychological assault should be also criminalised

where there are those that commit such assault on a person - then we need to have sanctions at least similar in nature to that of other forms of assault

catallus

Lone Stone wrote: »

so basically what this wold be used for is arresting people for posting their opinions on a politicians facebook page.

This is a good point, how would any such law not be abused by absurd allegations.... at the end of the day we're talking about hurting peoples feelings, which is hard to quantify or properly contextualise in any given instance....

Duiske

Lone Stone wrote: »

so basically what this wold be used for is arresting people for posting their opinions on a politicians facebook page.

If you can manage to give your opinion in a non-bullying/non-abusive way then you should be fine.

kirving

"Bullying" is very difficult to define, and also to prove. Ignoring someone can be taken as bullying. If I persistently ignore someone, can I be charged with assault? That's where nanny state laws get ridiculous.

blacklilly

Lone Stone wrote: »

so basically what this wold be used for is arresting people for posting their opinions on a politicians facebook page.

No everyone is entitled to an opinion, if someone however starts to direct their opinions in a threatening, vulgar, harassing,intimidating manner then they should be brought to account for their actions.
I have very strong personal beliefs on a number of current issues, I do not harass anyone with opposing beliefs/opinions. adults should be able to conduct themselves in a adult manner.
Bullying in schools is more difficult to manage as you are dealing with juveniles but the current system is not protecting the victim and this needs to be addressed.

mirekb

catallus wrote: »

This is a good point, how would any such law not be abused by absurd allegations.... at the end of the day we're talking about hurting peoples feelings, which is hard to quantify or properly contextualise in any given instance....

I think it is quite rare for NOONE to be aware of bullying that is going on (be it a co-worker, a fellow student, a family member, etc..). These people need to feel able to speak out against anyone they feel is behaving unfairly to another.

The best cure for bullying is exposure of the behaviour.

gozunda

Lone Stone wrote: »

so basically what this wold be used for is arresting people for posting their opinions on a politicians facebook page.

BTW I am not just talking any one incident here

Bullying is all to prevalent and is well defined

This is the HSA's definition in relation to places of work
What is Bullying

repeated inappropriate behavior, direct or indirect, whether verbal, physical or otherwise, conducted by one or more persons against another or others, at the place of work and/or in the course of employment, which could reasonably be regarded as undermining the individual‘s right to dignity at work."

But yes just as an individual right to swing a fist ends where another's nose begins so persistent verbal taunting or goading can be considered bullying

An once off response in a given situation would not normally constitute bullying

gozunda

Kevin Irving wrote: »

"Bullying" is very difficult to define, and also to prove. Ignoring someone can be taken as bullying. If I persistently ignore someone, can I be charged with assault? That's where nanny state laws get ridiculous.

KI Bullying has already been defined both in Ireland and internationally
Some countries have already made the move to criminalise such behaviour

It is bullying as a form of assault. Assault that causes actual harm and as such an offence against the person.

MyBrokenKnees

Will the Government be more inclined to do something about this because of the tragic death's of to young sisters or because of the tragic death of a colleague now brings it right to their door step?

catallus

repeated inappropriate behavior, direct or indirect, whether verbal, physical or otherwise, conducted by one or more persons against another or others, at the place of work and/or in the course of employment, which could reasonably be regarded as undermining the individual‘s right to dignity at work.

I'm not condoning bullying in any shape or form but this could be interpreted in any way a person could choose

blacklilly

MyBrokenKnees wrote: »

Will the Government be more inclined to do something about this because of the tragic death's of to young sisters or because of the tragic death of a colleague now brings it right to their door step?

Regardless of the reasons its a move in the right direction.
Nearly everyone if not everyone has been effected by suicide.

squod

catallus wrote: »

repeated inappropriate behavior, direct or indirect, whether verbal, physical or otherwise, conducted by one or more persons against another or others, at the place of work and/or in the course of employment, which could reasonably be regarded as undermining the individual‘s right to dignity at work.

I'm not condoning bullying in any shape or form but this could be interpreted in any way a person could choose

This definitely fits policy decisions directed against vulnerable groups or individuals. Bullying. There, I said it.

kirving

If a TD was ignored in the Dail on a daily basis, that could be regarded as bullying, and rightly so. If I walk past the same charity guy on the street every day and ignore him, does that make me a bully?

Lone Stone

Im all for stopping bullying i was bullied myself when i was a kid in school, but i think criminalizing bullying through social media has more ramifications than stopping bullies it could be easily abused especially in todays climate where their seems to be an increasing attack on social media and how people use it to express themselves rightly or wrongly.

Educating people on how to treat one and other and a more pro active approach from teachers in stopping it in the class room before it gets out of control would go a long way.

shedweller

If one of us plebs went and "bullied" a non-pleb we would see swift action against bullying. Whats a non-pleb? Well, if i have to explain that then there's no hope for us!

Pottler

Ok, so now we can't hit each other anymore, soon we won't be able to be impolite to each other. I just hope our brethren overseas are keeping up with us in the "being really civilised" stakes, otherwise we're fecked if they choose to pop over for a spot of invading.

Our only defence will be an online petition because we will have become such a bunch of woosies. The Chinese must bust their holes laughing at the stuff we worry about.

How about we just educate our kids that the world is quite tough, people can be nasty and it is a good thing to be able to stand up to bullies ourselves rather than rely on others to do so for us through legislation?

blacklilly

catallus wrote: »

repeated inappropriate behavior, direct or indirect, whether verbal, physical or otherwise, conducted by one or more persons against another or others, at the place of work and/or in the course of employment, which could reasonably be regarded as undermining the individual‘s right to dignity at work.

I'm not condoning bullying in any shape or form but this could be interpreted in any way a person could choose

It would have to be proven that the victim was indeed victimised, that they suffered mentally, physically by the actions of another person(s).
I know you're not condoning bullying and I can see where you're coming from but something needs to be done.
I was very nearly another suicide victim at the age of 12, if it wasn't for my families intervention I would be dead and not every child has a supportive, capable family unit. Some of these children come from vert vulnerable backgrounds where there could already be mental or physical abuse at home.

MyBrokenKnees

A few weeks ago Ming was laughed at and jeered in Dáil Éireann when He wanted to make a point about his children been bullied. Will those TD's now publicly apologize for their behavior to him. That behavior could be seen as bullying.

mirekb

Pottler wrote: »

How about we just educate our kids that the world is quite tough, people can be nasty and it is a good thing to be able to stand up to bullies ourselves rather than rely on others to do so for us through legislation?

There's a lot to be said for this approach! Although, I was brought up to be out spoken and to stand up for myself and was still so badly bullied from the ages of 13-15 that I lost all confidence in myself for years.

BidillyBo

Would that mean all them slagging Ming Flanagans clothes and shouting over him when hes trying to speak, could have them up in court for bullying??

gozunda

catallus wrote: »

repeated inappropriate behavior, direct or indirect, whether verbal, physical or otherwise, conducted by one or more persons against another or others, at the place of work and/or in the course of employment, which could reasonably be regarded as undermining the individual‘s right to dignity at work.

I'm not condoning bullying in any shape or form but this could be interpreted in any way a person could choose

Obviously It would be up to the courts to decide not the individual

That is the HSA's definition of Bullying - they also state that
"An isolated incident of the behavior described in this definition may be an affront to dignity at work but as a once off incident is not considered to be bullying."

Obviously the criminalising of such behavior would involve defining this in detail

This has been done elsewhere

Pottler

mirekb wrote: »

There's a lot to be said for this approach! Although, I was brought up to be out spoken and to stand up for myself and was still so badly bullied from the ages of 13-15 that I lost all confidence in myself for years.

Much the same here, try being a half german half Irish lad in London with a dublin accent. I got awful grief and even the teachers had a good old go. Long term, it made me waay stronger and resilient, though it was tough at the time. If we wrap everyone up in cotton wool, we get a lot of people who can just not fend for themselves at all. The world is rough and tumble and it is better to face that and adapt rather than to try and change the whole world, somthing that no law will ever achieve.

Stinicker

As a Child I was severely bullied and it was reported by my parents to teachers and yet it still continued. One day I went into school and at lunch time the name calling started again and I just saw red and proceeded to hammer the daylights out of the bullies who were bullying me there, I knocked one of them out cold, chipped another lads tooth. I was not one bit sorry and when nothing was ever being done about it I just flipped out and my father had told me to always stand up for myself and defend myself and deal with them. Looking back I feel it was the exact right way to handle the situation. I was 13 and when the headmaster went in to save one of them, I turned on him too and was not one bit sorry for it. I was fairly strong and managed to hit him too :eek:

Bullys are scum and if they are getting away with it in School as was happening to me then dealing with it old-skool style as I did is the exact right thing to do. I would do the exact same thing today as an adult as I know how to defend myself. I am not the sort to run and I'd stand my ground and fight.

This was me around 15 years ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isfn4OxCPQs

catallus

Years ago I remember that bullies were treated with the "kid gloves approach" because it was presumed that they were the ones who had "esteem issues". This attitude has been discarded, the reason being that it was nonsense, and in hindsight it was idiotic nonsense.

Now the idea being pushed is that the people who are being bullied are so delicate that they need the power of the state to protect them. It's a knee-jerk reaction to a cluster of very tragic episodes.

We need to educate people, especially the young that they shouldn't allow themselves to be victimised. I know it's harder than it sounds, but to say that they need the government to step in and fight their battles for them is nanny-statish.

catallus

gozunda wrote: »

Obviously It would be up to the courts to decide not the individual

That is the HSA's definition of Bullying - they also state that
"An isolated incident of the behavior described in this definition may be an affront to dignity at work but as a once off incident is not considered to be bullying."

Obviously the criminalising of such behavior would involve defining this in detail

This has been done elsewhere

We should really take care what we permit the courts to decide.

gozunda

Kevin Irving wrote: »

If a TD was ignored in the Dail on a daily basis, that could be regarded as bullying, and rightly so. If I walk past the same charity guy on the street every day and ignore him, does that make me a bully?

Well if you dont know the guy - then obviously no

Just as there is an obvious difference in touching someone on the arm with no other detrimental behavior and walloping a person with a baseball bat

Persistent behavior that actually causes harm is a very different scenario to not talking to someone you dont know

mirekb

Pottler wrote: »

Much the same here, try being a half german half Irish lad in London with a dublin accent. I got awful grief and even the teachers had a good old go. Long term, it made me waay stronger and resilient, though it was tough at the time. If we wrap everyone up in cotton wool, we get a lot of people who can just not fend for themselves at all. The world is rough and tumble and it is better to face that and adapt rather than to try and change the whole world, somthing that no law will ever achieve.

I agree that we need to empower people to stand up for themselves - but people can literally be broken and at that point there needs to be some support for them. I am in favour of taking responsibility as a society and standing up for people we see being bullied - and laughing at the bullies.

Oh, and legislation/law of any kind is open to misinterpretation and abuse

gozunda

catallus wrote: »

We should really take care what we permit the courts to decide.

If a family member was physically assaulted for example they were attacked and harmed by a person wielding a knife - then we would utilise the courts to decide if and how a person was assaulted

Legislators legislate - The court can only utilise the law to decide when a law has or has not be broken....

hyperborean

Laws wont change human nature, even education. Bullying especially in children will always be there, the best thing people can do is help themselves and show their own how to deal with situations they are not comfortable with. . .

The government is not a big brother to go crying to every time someone calls you a name!

mirekb

hyperborean wrote: »

The government is not a big brother to go crying to every time someone calls you a name!

This is not reflective of what bullying is

hyperborean

mirekb wrote: »

This is not reflective of what bullying is

Go ahead?

gozunda

Pottler wrote: »

Ok, so now we can't hit each other anymore, soon we won't be able to be impolite to each other. I just hope our brethren overseas are keeping up with us in the "being really civilised" stakes, otherwise we're fecked if they choose to pop over for a spot of invading.

Our only defence will be an online petition because we will have become such a bunch of woosies. The Chinese must bust their holes laughing at the stuff we worry about.

How about we just educate our kids that the world is quite tough, people can be nasty and it is a good thing to be able to stand up to bullies ourselves rather than rely on others to do so for us through legislation?

So if you were attacked with a knife and suffered harm and attempted to seek redress - would that be defined as being a woosie?

Physical assault is defined as an offense against the person
Similarly psychological assault that causes harm also needs to be properly legislated for

Education can only go so far and bullying is far from being confined to the behavior of children. There are many adult bullies who use psychological assault to destroy others lives

Pottler

gozunda wrote: »

So if you were attacked with a knife and suffered harm and attempted to seek redress - would that be defined as being a woosie?

Physical assault is defined as an offense against the person
Similarly psychological assault that causes harm also needs to be properly legislated for

Education can only go so far and bullying is far from being confined to the behavior of children. There are many adult bullies who use psychological assault to destroy others lives

I am really not being smart now, but I've never met one, Twice. I learned the hard way how to stand up for myself and now I don't tolerate any abuse in any way shape or form. Literally. I demand politeness from everyone I deal with and give the same in return. That is the best lesson to teach our kids -don't accept bullying or abuse. Simply refuse to. Call them out on it immediatly and demand a respectful interaction.

Teaching this is far more realistic than drafting some batty legislation. We have laws about not stabbing each other, but people still get stabbed.

mirekb

hyperborean wrote: »

Go ahead?

At the age of 13 someone in my school decided to call me a name. It was very funny to call me that. Even more funny when their friends called me it too. Then even more funny when the kids in the older classes started too. Sounds like nothing right? But noone ever talked to me, they just hissed that name at me. Or sometimes shouted it. And pointed. And laughed. And kicked my chair, and took my lunch. The boys would touch my bum and chest, and hold me down and laugh. The girls would egg them on. I was in boarding school so it was day and night.

Now, I don't care anymore, I'm a grown up, there's no self pity here. BUT to tell my thirteen year old self to stand up for myself is laughable - and to tell my thirteen myself to stop crying and cop-on it's just 'someone calling me a name' is insulting.

Smidge

catallus wrote: »

Years ago I remember that bullies were treated with the "kid gloves approach" because it was presumed that they were the ones who had "esteem issues". This attitude has been discarded, the reason being that it was nonsense, and in hindsight it was idiotic nonsense.

Now the idea being pushed is that the people who are being bullied are so delicate that they need the power of the state to protect them. It's a knee-jerk reaction to a cluster of very tragic episodes.

We need to educate people, especially the young that they shouldn't allow themselves to be victimised. I know it's harder than it sounds, but to say that they need the government to step in and fight their battles for them is nanny-statish.

This unfortunately has not been my experience.
It is still the bullies who are treated with kid gloves, in primary anyway

hyperborean

gozunda wrote: »

Similarly psychological assault that causes harm also needs to be properly legislated for

How do you legislate psychological assault when you cant even categorize it?
How far do we go?

One thing may be psychological damaging to me but banal to another,

Do we provide everyone with a tolerance level for this law?Maybe a stamp or something to distinguish the poor sod who was battered by his father and has no defense mechanism to deal with normal stressful situations and therefore everyone has to thread carefully when interacting with them?
And another level for the self contained dude who has a limitless tolerance to bull (the water of a ducks back chap),

maybe we can use the new 2d barcodes and our phones can tell us who is in a bad place.

This^ is not as crazy as trying to legislate bullying,

gozunda

Pottler wrote: »

I am really not being smart now, but I've never met one, Twice. I learned the hard way how to stand up for myself and now I don't tolerate any abuse in any way shape or form. Literally. I demand politeness from everyone I deal with and give the same in return. That is the best lesson to teach our kids -don't accept bullying or abuse. Simply refuse to. Call them out on it immediatly and demand a respectful interaction.

Teaching this is far more realistic than drafting some batty legislation. We have laws about not stabbing each other, but people still get stabbed.

Pottler - I admire your personal stance - you are quite obviously a very strong willed person but bullying behavior can often be an extreme form of violence. The issue of bullying as a form of assault is not only confined to children but to adults as well. It is not always possible to deflect or get rid of a bully. There are time when there needs to a proactive approach towards those that persistently bully others - as much as to protect those who are bullied but also to punish those that are the perpetrators

syklops

so basically what this wold be used for is arresting people for posting their opinions on a politicians facebook page.

One of the messages the late TD got on his facebook went along the lines of "I'll murder you. You deserve to be murdered for your comments". Thats a death threat. Even on boards I cant call call someone an idiot, so I don't understand why those kind of comments are ok'ed on public fora.


You can disagree with the government. There is nothing wrong with that, but comments like the above, which Shane McEntee was subjected to hundreds of, have no place in debate.

I received a good deal of bullying myself when i was a kid and what i learned over the years is that bullying comes down to 2 main factors - insecurity and ignorance. I used to think physical retribution was the answer but it is far from it. Fact is kids resort to this because of an insecurity they have and while i dont condone it i think money would be better served educating people before its too late rather then making criminals out of them. A bit like Racism or homophobia people need to be educated on the subject and made aware that what they are doing is not how a human being should treat another

hyperborean

mirekb wrote: »

At the age of 13 someone in my school decided to call me a name. It was very funny to call me that. Even more funny when their friends called me it too. Then even more funny when the kids in the older classes started too. Sounds like nothing right? But noone ever talked to me, they just hissed that name at me. Or sometimes shouted it. And pointed. And laughed. And kicked my chair, and took my lunch. The boys would touch my bum and chest, and hold me down and laugh. The girls would egg them on. I was in boarding school so it was day and night.

Now, I don't care anymore, I'm a grown up, there's no self pity here. BUT to tell my thirteen year old self to stand up for myself is laughable - and to tell my thirteen myself to stop crying and cop-on it's just 'someone calling me a name' is insulting.

Look man, that's **** and there were scores of guys like you in every school in every year but what do you want to happen?

Do you want everyone in that year to be brought before a judge for not wanting to be your friend? For being 13 year old (eejits for the most part)

Do you want their parents/teachers to be brought before a judge as they are their guardians and responsibility lies with them to educate?

Or should your parents/teachers be brought before a judge for not giving you the tools?

Think about this, this pandora's box is not for opening by the legislator...

hyperborean

hyperborean wrote: »

Laws wont change human nature, even education. Bullying especially in children will always be there, the best thing people can do is help themselves and show their own how to deal with situations they are not comfortable with. . .

The government is not a big brother to go crying to every time someone calls you a name!

They are a bully if anything

Dravokivich

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Or, we could just like, educate people?

Jaysus Dougal, where's your oversensationalisationsing?

goose_gladwell

Deleted User wrote: »

I received a good deal of bullying myself when i was a kid and what i learned over the years is that bullying comes down to 2 main factors - insecurity and ignorance. I used to think physical retribution was the answer but it is far from it. Fact is kids resort to this because of an insecurity they have and while i dont condone it i think money would be better served educating people before its too late rather then making criminals out of them. A bit like Racism or homophobia people need to be educated on the subject and made aware that what they are doing is not how a human being should treat another

many people bully because they like it , they get off on the power of dominating others

lack of education has nothing to do with it , its lack of decency