Criminalise Bullying

mirekb

hyperborean wrote: »

Look man, that's **** and there were scores of guys like you in every school in every year but what do you want to happen?

Do you want everyone in that year to be brought before a judge for not wanting to be your friend? For being 13 year old (eejits for the most part)

Do you want their parents/teachers to be brought before a judge as they are their guardians and responsibility lies with them to educate?

Or should your parents/teachers be brought before a judge for not giving you the tools?

Think about this, this pandora's box is not for opening by the legislator...

Not at all, if you read my other posts I have said that I believe in societal responsibility for the question of bullying - not legislation, necessarily. So, if I see someone being bullied at work I will stand up for them and, more importantly, stand beside them. That is often enough to stop a bully, and far easier to go out to bat for someone else than for yourself as your own emotions are not engaged or open to manipulation.

Although, I'm not so clear on what should happen to teachers who allow bullying in the classroom. They have chosen a position of responsibility.. and the fact that we have children in our schools killing themselves says that something should be done

hyperborean

goose_gladwell wrote: »

lack of education has nothing to do with it , its lack of decency

How do we instill decency in children for one?

Does this mean that the bully is not the fault and the parent/teacher/society is to blame?

Who judges these groups and how will we legislate for judgement?

catallus

mirekb wrote: »

Not at all, if you read my other posts I have said that I believe in societal responsibility for the question of bullying - not legislation, necessarily. So, if I see someone being bullied at work I will stand up for them and, more importantly, stand beside them. That is often enough to stop a bully, and far easier to go out to bat for someone else than for yourself as your own emotions are not engaged or open to manipulation.

Although, I'm not so clear on what should happen to teachers who allow bullying in the classroom. They have chosen a position of responsibility.. and the fact that we have children in our schools killing themselves says that something should be done

This is how i feel too. And it is part of what a community should be.

gozunda

hyperborean wrote: »

How do you legislate psychological assault when you cant even categorize it?
How far do we go?

Who says it cant be categorised?

hyperborean wrote: »

One thing may be psychological damaging to me but banal to another,

Same difficulities are faced in properly defining all offences tbh - it does not mean it cannot be done

hyperborean wrote: »

Do we provide everyone with a tolerance level for this law?Maybe a stamp or something to distinguish the poor sod who was battered by his father and has no defense mechanism to deal with normal stressful situations and therefore everyone has to thread carefully when interacting with them?
And another level for the self contained dude who has a limitless tolerance to bull (the water of a ducks back chap),

Do we decide that the person who is knifed must be judged on their upbrining to decide if a offence has been commited - of course not

I believe you are making the basic mistake of assigning the victim as the causer of their assault - this is not a valid reference point

If an individual suffers actual harm caused by bullying / pyschological assault- attested by medical or other means then there is an obvious case to answer

"Threading carefully" does not even exist in the same reality as the persistant behaviour of a bully

I dont get it why physical assault is rightfully outlawed but bullying / psycholoical assault is not

mirekb

catallus wrote: »

This is how i feel too. And it is part of what a community should be.

And is what should be fostered in the school environment from a very early age. Make them feel important by encouraging them to take responsibility for the good things that can happen, rather than giving them no responsibility and so they search for their own (which, as kids are savages, doesn't end well!)

hyperborean

mirekb wrote: »

Not at all, if you read my other posts I have said that I believe in societal responsibility for the question of bullying - not legislation, necessarily. So, if I see someone being bullied at work I will stand up for them and, more importantly, stand beside them. That is often enough to stop a bully, and far easier to go out to bat for someone else than for yourself as your own emotions are not engaged or open to manipulation.

Although, I'm not so clear on what should happen to teachers who allow bullying in the classroom. They have chosen a position of responsibility.. and the fact that we have children in our schools killing themselves says that something should be done

Thats normal enough, almost everyone I know would do the same?

The OP stated

I believe it is time that bullying as an assault against the person is criminalised to enable those that are bullied to stop such behaviour but also that by making such activities illegal it will act as a deterent to others who would bully others

My points and replies are based solely on my opinion that this is dangerous and unworkable, I used your post to make this point?

DramaQuee

In a girls' school there can be vindictive, evil bullying. A child can be isolated, with disdainful looks, 'boxing out' with body language, gaslighting, words said under their breath. It is very difficult to actually describe, but any adult with half a brain and DESIRE TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT will spot it. It is much worse than the type of bullying which boys do which you can point to bruises etc. If you are large, you can punch back if you're a boy and prove it when you've been hit, a girl's situation can be so frightening and invisible.

My daughter was bullied mercilessly in a convent, all girls school at age 7, 5 years ago. When I said what was happening, the teachers merely described the bullies as 'more mature, assertive girls'. They denied everything my daughter said. I was not allowed to watch during play time with the Head Teacher, when they downfaced my daughter saying she was NOT alone all break-times - which to this day, 5 years later she still says they lied about. It was a nightmare, they said it was not happening while my child wouldn't eat or sleep, and cried about things which happened and really nasty things that were done to her, her things being taken from her etc. I went in one week 3 times. The teacher in charge of bullying issues, the head mistress and the child's teacher would come into the room and try intimidate me. Luckily for me they were all about 5ft and I am 5'11, but I wore high heels too. They tried tactics like offering me a tiny child's seat to sit on while they had the big foam covered chairs. Naturally I refused and leaned against a filing cabinet, as I went through my diary of what was happening. Mind games all the way. As I am a divorced parent, they knew I had to do it all alone, and missing work would be difficult, they then called me in for 'meetings' a few times a week, where nothing at all was being done, but they were showing how uncomfortable they could make life for me if I kept asking them to meet me over particular incidents. They also said it probably something at home which was upsetting the child, not school at all!!! I had the quietest home imaginable.

After 3 months I had enough and moved my child to another school recommended by 2 good friends. One which was co-ed and a Gaelscoil this time. WHAT a difference, there was zero tolerance of bullying and my child has thrived from the first day - despite having to become fluent in Irish very quickly. The adults in the school can make a huge difference, they can condone bullying, turn a blind eye. It's easy to say a child is making a mountain out of a molehill, especially when the parents of the bully are on the Board of Management or Very Respectable etc. When this happens those responsible in loco parentis are responsible for the suffering of a lot of children, they are neglecting and harming the victim just as much as the bullies are. They are not doing what they are paid to do.

When I see the contrast now the management of any unfairness in this Gaelcolaiste (daughter is in second level now) compared to the convent, I cannot believe it. Here, the upset child is put first, nurtured and listened to. The bullies are firmly dealt with, so much so, they behave. A teacher said to me girls can be the worst and she knows to keep her foot on the pedal, if she didn't some children could easily lose the run of themselves. There has been one week of talks anti-bullying already, since September. Kids in this school are kind to each other, the 6 years are like older brothers and sisters to the 1st years, it is an excellent system and a small school.

If your child is being bullied, you might try teach them tools to deal with the situation, you may be afraid you're teaching your child to run away if you move them. But I would advise any parent to move their bullied child out of the environment IMMEDIATELY, sometimes it IS the best thing. Some people need a different group, better way of thinking to thrive. Listen to your child, listen to your gut, it is essential for your child to have correct emotional, social and mental development. It is the worst thing to feel stuck and there is no way out, and the child learns to be the one who isn't included, they feel there is 'something wrong' with them. You have to react quickly and get them out of that fast.

My daughter is so happy now, doing so well academically, socially far superior to the bitchy girls who were in the old school, who incidentally are hanging around town now at 13 years old in tarty clothes and heavy makeup. I'm so glad she didn't 'fit in' with these nasty pieces of work.

Pottler

mirekb wrote: »

Not at all, if you read my other posts I have said that I believe in societal responsibility for the question of bullying - not legislation, necessarily. So, if I see someone being bullied at work I will stand up for them and, more importantly, stand beside them. That is often enough to stop a bully, and far easier to go out to bat for someone else than for yourself as your own emotions are not engaged or open to manipulation.

Although, I'm not so clear on what should happen to teachers who allow bullying in the classroom. They have chosen a position of responsibility.. and the fact that we have children in our schools killing themselves says that something should be done

As a daily reality, I have a few employees, varies from time to time, usually somwhere around a dozen to about 20 depending. Within that fairly small group, bullying does emerge, it just does. But, It's an open door to come to me and state what is happening, and by god it stops there and then, immediatly.

It is, to me, totally unnacceptable, full stop and if there was a glimmer of a repeat, I'd fire the perpetrator and everyone knows that's my policy. It has seldom if ever needed more than a very firm, unambiguous laying down of the ground rules to nip it in the bud. So, I'm not unrealistic, I know some people need support and back-up, but I do not think it is somthing you can legislate for.

goose_gladwell

hyperborean wrote: »

How do we instill decency in children for one?

Does this mean that the bully is not the fault and the parent/teacher/society is to blame?

Who judges these groups and how will we legislate for judgement?

why are you asking about the bully

my only concern is the victim , i dont care what the bullys reasons are or motives , i can sympathise with someone stealing because they are poor but not antagonising others

hyperborean

gozunda wrote: »

Who says it cant be categorised?



Same difficulities are faced in properly defining all offences tbh - it does not mean it cannot be done



Do we decide that the person who is knifed must be judged on their upbrining to decide if a offence has been commited - of course not

I believe you are making the basic mistake of assigning the victim as the causer of their assault - this is not a valid reference point

If an individual suffers actual harm caused by bullying / pyschological assault- attested by medical or other means then there is an obvious case to answer

"Threading carefully" does not even exist in the same reality as the persistant behaviour of a bully

I dont get it why physical assault is rightfully outlawed but bullying / psycholoical assault is not

Sorry but I don't see your point in relation to my concerns?

How will bullying be legislated for?

mirekb

mirekb wrote: »

At the age of 13 someone in my school decided to call me a name. It was very funny to call me that. Even more funny when their friends called me it too. Then even more funny when the kids in the older classes started too. Sounds like nothing right? But noone ever talked to me, they just hissed that name at me. Or sometimes shouted it. And pointed. And laughed. And kicked my chair, and took my lunch. The boys would touch my bum and chest, and hold me down and laugh. The girls would egg them on. I was in boarding school so it was day and night.

Now, I don't care anymore, I'm a grown up, there's no self pity here. BUT to tell my thirteen year old self to stand up for myself is laughable - and to tell my thirteen myself to stop crying and cop-on it's just 'someone calling me a name' is insulting.

What happened to you was utterly disgusting tbh and my heart goes out to you. The two sides of bullying need to be more educated in my opinion. The victims need to be taught how to deal with it be it physical or mental and the perpetrators need to be made aware that their behaviour is one of a sociopath and given a medium to air their problems and insecurities.

I have learned from experience that having an emphasis on attacking someone either physically or mentally is not the best form of defence. At best the bully will still remain a bully moving on to the next victim even more embittered from the experience of being stood up to while at worst the victims anger will overwhelm them making the situation even worse and empowering the bully more, perhaps you could also create a situation where the victim is seen as the perpetrator.

The recommended course of action is to tell but the entrusted people use the 'crack a nut with a sledgehammer' approach and that's where the real problem lies. Your covering an open wound with a band aid at that stage. Rather than shout and roar and punish they should try separating both the victims and perpetrators and perhaps give all parties involved the opportunity to get their problems off their chest with a professional.

Thats an ideal world of course but we must strive for perfection

goose_gladwell

Pottler wrote: »

As a daily reality, I have a few employees, varies from time to time, usually somwhere around a dozen to about 20 depending. Within that fairly small group, bullying does emerge, it just does. But, It's an open door to come to me and state what is happening, and by god it stops there and then, immediatly.

It is, to me, totally unnacceptable, full stop and if there was a glimmer of a repeat, I'd fire the perpetrator and everyone knows that's my policy. It has seldom if ever needed more than a very firm, unambiguous laying down of the ground rules to nip it in the bud. So, I'm not unrealistic, I know some people need support and back-up, but I do not think it is somthing you can legislate for.

i was savagely bullied while working in new zealand over a decade ago , the boss saw my accusations as an affront to the company and him , now new zealand has a well deserved reputation for terrible employers ( kiwis cannot bare anyone complaning about anything anyway ) but i know that many irish bosses here take the same attitude towards complaints, they view the one complaining as the problem , the one who needs to be marginalised and rooted out

hyperborean

goose_gladwell wrote: »

why are you asking about the bully

my only concern is the victim , i dont care what the bullys reasons are or motives , i can sympathise with someone stealing because they are poor but not antagonising others

Thats a very myopic point of view and it would certainly yield very few solutions when dealing with bullying!

You have to understand the why the antagonist is doing what he is doing before you put in place processes to stop it happening in future,

catallus

goose_gladwell wrote: »

why are you asking about the bully

my only concern is the victim , i dont care what the bullys reasons are or motives , i can sympathise with someone stealing because they are poor but not antagonising others

How is theft not antagonising others?

hyperborean wrote: »

Thats a very myopic point of view and it would certainly yield very few solutions when dealing with bullying!

You have to understand the why the antagonist is doing what he is doing before you put in place processes to stop it happening in future,

The "why" is usually because the antagonist is an arsehole.

goose_gladwell

goose_gladwell wrote: »

many people bully because they like it , they get off on the power of dominating others

lack of education has nothing to do with it , its lack of decency

But dominating others is to satisfy their own insecurities. I don't believe any one human being is born with the intention of harming another. Life experience be it bad parenting, being a victim of bullying themselves, perhaps being abused could be the cause.

GRMA

http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/25249

mirekb

Deleted User wrote: »

The recommended course of action is to tell but the entrusted people use the 'crack a nut with a sledgehammer' approach and that's where the real problem lies. Your covering an open wound with a band aid at that stage. Rather than shout and roar and punish they should try separating both the victims and perpetrators and perhaps give all parties involved the opportunity to get their problems off their chest with a professional.

Thats an ideal world of course but we must strive for protection

I don't know, though, is giving a bully a platform/more attention the way to go? I always think of it in terms of a child wanting attention. If a child's behaviour is unacceptable the best thing to do is tell them so calmly and then just walk off and completely ignore them. People hate being irrelevant, so if the only way to be relevant is to behave well they will.

I tell my son, if they bully you laugh at them and walk off. Never let them see they've hurt you and they'll get bored. It may not address the problem of the bully going off and bullying someone else, but it addresses the problem for my son. The larger problem of the bully is a harder one.

Pottler

goose_gladwell wrote: »

i was savagely bullied while working in new zealand over a decade ago , the boss saw my accusations as an affront to the company and him , now new zealand has a well deserved reputation for terrible employers ( kiwis cannot bare anyone complaning about anything anyway ) but i know that many irish bosses here take the same attitude towards complaints, they view the one complaining as the problem , the one who needs to be marginalised and rooted out

This issue only ever usually arises with new hires, they come from companies that seemed to accept "robust banter"(feck off) and "a bit of horseplay"(also, feck off). Once they get my version, ie, here we're a team, we play nice, we treat each other with respect, or we go off and find somwhere else to go to from 8-4, they get the message. Sometimes it is bloody hard to deal with though, because then it goes all subtle, so if someone seems not to get the message, i let them go. I've had bullying as a kid, i know how much fun it is. Now I'm a big, hairy full grown man, so, no, don't give me your guff, be nice, thanks.

Lone Stone

syklops wrote: »

One of the messages the late TD got on his facebook went along the lines of "I'll murder you. You deserve to be murdered for your comments". Thats a death threat. Even on boards I cant call call someone an idiot, so I don't understand why those kind of comments are ok'ed on public fora.


You can disagree with the government. There is nothing wrong with that, but comments like the above, which Shane McEntee was subjected to hundreds of, have no place in debate.

Look i dont agree with people making threats to a person's life, but these were also on facebook and not behind any form anonymity assuming those comments were made by real accounts that is, if those threats were taking seriously the persons name is right there and the gardi could be contacted. Censorship is already possibly the comments could have removed the people blocked atc.

But i find it hard to swallow this argument as none of those comments would have been made towards the man had he not made his own stupid comments, stupid comments of late which seem to be pouring out of our government a women murder being used a retort in the dail by enda kenny etc, these people dont seem to understand that the way they are behaving affect how people will react to them. So before a big censorship of social media outcry comes out because of this TD they need to seriously wake up to their own behavior and attitude towards the public.

But if the politicians are finding it hard to cope with the public's opinion online perhaps they just need to "get on with it".

goose_gladwell

catallus wrote: »

How is theft not antagonising others?



The "why" is usually because the antagonist is an arsehole.

id rather have someone rob me than mercilessly bully me , robbing is not personal , ive been robbed , i was annoyed but got over it

a person who is hungary needs to steal a loaf of bread , they do not need to emotionally destroy someone , its not a practical nesscessity , people who do that enjoy being cruel and are nasty

gozunda

hyperborean wrote: »

Sorry but I don't see your point in relation to my concerns?

How will bullying be legislated for?

In a nutshell...
As an assault against the person where actual harm has occurred due to the persistent and deliberate behavior of another

I would not be in any way be qualified to write the draft of any such legislation - however that does not mean there could / should not be prosecutions where a person has suffered actual harm

Tbh - I see such assault in the same light as actual physical assault

hyperborean

catallus wrote: »

The "why" is usually because the antagonist is an arsehole.

That type of emotive attitude is typical of a dead end street, nothing learned or to be gained from it.

The thread is about legislating for bullying not venting,

On that note I will leave you lot at it for tonight, I wish you all well and hope you can lay your demons to rest. bullying is deplorable and has no place in modern society but we are a flawed animal and changes are slow. . be cool

catallus

hyperborean wrote: »

That type of emotive attitude is typical of a dead end street, nothing learned or to be gained from it.

The thread is about legislating for bullying not venting,

On that note I will leave you lot at it for tonight, I wish you all well and hope you can lay your demons to rest. bullying is deplorable and has no place in modern society but we are a flawed animal and changes are slow. . be cool

I'm not being emotive or emotional; the fact is that bullies are usually like that.

goose_gladwell

hyperborean wrote: »

Thats a very myopic point of view and it would certainly yield very few solutions when dealing with bullying!

You have to understand the why the antagonist is doing what he is doing before you put in place processes to stop it happening in future,

why ?

my concern is for the person who is on the recieving end of abuse , not the one dishing it out , they choose to abuse , their reasons are of no interest to me

if i employed someone in the morning and made their life hell , that i was myself visciously bullied in work overseas would be no defense whatsoever

goose_gladwell

Pottler wrote: »

This issue only ever usually arises with new hires, they come from companies that seemed to accept "robust banter"(feck off) and "a bit of horseplay"(also, feck off). Once they get my version, ie, here we're a team, we play nice, we treat each other with respect, or we go off and find somwhere else to go to from 8-4, they get the message. Sometimes it is bloody hard to deal with though, because then it goes all subtle, so if someone seems not to get the message, i let them go. I've had bullying as a kid, i know how much fun it is. Now I'm a big, hairy full grown man, so, no, don't give me your guff, be nice, thanks.

was nothing like that

this charming lady was a sectarian bigot who,s hatred and contempt was absolute and unconditional , then their was the slander and lies - charechter assasination

good humoured hazing is one thing , visceral contempt is another

have you ever had somone say the following to you

" give me one reason why i shouldnt treat you like sh1t "

" id piss myself laughing if you got your head kicked in "

the boss told me to get over it

syklops

But i find it hard to swallow this argument as none of those comments would have been made towards the man had he not made his own stupid comments

Well there you go, thats the issue. If you want to engage in debate, thats fine, but it is possible to get your point across with out resorting to that kind of vitriol. If I called you stupid I would get an infraction, but because he is a public figure its ok to launch any kind of attack on him and there are no consequences. Thats the problem.

Aside from that, the last politician we had who told everyone what they wanted to hear was Bertie and look how that ended. A politician who said it like it was was just what we needed. Its such a terrible shame it ended the way it did for him.

leggo

I was a bully in school. I'm doing a lot of work in helping with anti-bullying research these days, and spreading awareness in what actually helps the bullying stop (which is all we want, ultimately). What I'm finding is that people react with their emotions in coming up with their opinions and suggestions which, while understandable, isn't necessarily helpful or constructive.

During the week, TheJournal.ie were kind enough to publish a column that I wrote on the subject. Have a read if you like, I think some might find the results of what stopped the bullying interesting.

Most recently, I have been working with anti-bullying workshops in secondary schools. There I have found that the kids actually seem to respond to what we're suggesting. Whether it pays off in the long-term or not is yet to be seen, but we'll see. It's certainly a new approach. And everything that has been tried in the past certainly hasn't worked; if anything, things have gotten worse.

What will help this problem go away is to understand why it happens to begin with. I also feel that educating people while young will change their behaviour growing older. I don't think legislation will work. Schools and workplaces implementing effective policies that consider the nature of bullying, then enacting them, will.

goose_gladwell

hyperborean wrote: »

That type of emotive attitude is typical of a dead end street, nothing learned or to be gained from it.

The thread is about legislating for bullying not venting,

On that note I will leave you lot at it for tonight, I wish you all well and hope you can lay your demons to rest. bullying is deplorable and has no place in modern society but we are a flawed animal and changes are slow. . be cool

high minded pious crap which sociology and philosophy majors specialise in

has no value in the real world

mirekb

mirekb wrote: »

I don't know, though, is giving a bully a platform/more attention the way to go? I always think of it in terms of a child wanting attention. If a child's behaviour is unacceptable the best thing to do is tell them so calmly and then just walk off and completely ignore them. People hate being irrelevant, so if the only way to be relevant is to behave well they will.

I tell my son, if they bully you laugh at them and walk off. Never let them see they've hurt you and they'll get bored. It may not address the problem of the bully going off and bullying someone else, but it addresses the problem for my son. The larger problem of the bully is a harder one.

I think your taking too much a simplistic view about a bully's motives. In order to behave like this it is a little more than attention seeking that is wrong. These people are damaged.

Also the biggest fuel for Bullies is strength in numbers so to counteract this the victim needs enough people to disapprove of this in their favour.

My 8 year old niece was being excluded in school recently and she was very off with us at home. It got so bad my sister sent her to a therapist. She was being excluded by one of the girls who we thought she was friends with and was told by the therapist that in order to deal with it she needed to let the bully know that she was aware of the bullies behaviour toward her. The bully ran off crying and since then the whole dynamic has changed for the better. They are now great friends. Also the therapist told my niece that the reason the bully is the way she is is down to a certain great insecurity in her home and there could be alot of truth in that as her mother suffers bouts of depression

DramaQuee

I'm fed up with this 'children don't mean to do it' attitude, or 'it's a cry for help'. These kids know what they're doing. The rotten kids in my own class, still have pretty much the same personalities. Ever go to a school re-union? Within half an hour, the same people are in their clicks, and everyone reacts like they last did when in that grouping.

Some people are rough a**holes. There always have been rough, hard hearted people. Generations of ruthless people, bred families of inconsiderate a**holes, occasionally there will be exceptions in these families, but they are tougher, less refined- with or without money.

You can see it in conflict, some people would like to find out the problem, analyse it, others want to end it immediately - they have no ability to cope with the stress, but SOME people thrive on contention, getting the upper hand and being bullies. They want the other to kowtow to them, they don't care about wrong or right, just the fact that they call the shots. Peace in the home? irrelevant, honesty - disposable, any type of learning from the whole situation - forget it, this is crude survival and domination.

In the animal kingdom you see it, and here it is called survival of the toughest. So those with strong base desires and undeveloped brains are more likely to react in this crude grab all, push others down, me first attitude. You even see it in the duck pond, some ducks bite and push the others away so they get the bread, boy do I enjoy making sure these pushy gets don't get any of my bread

goose_gladwell

DramaQuee wrote: »

I'm fed up with this 'children don't mean to do it' attitude, or 'it's a cry for help'. These kids know what they're doing. The rotten kids in my own class, still have pretty much the same personalities. Ever go to a school re-union? Within half an hour, the same people are in their clicks, and everyone reacts like they last did when in that grouping.

Some people are rough a**holes. There always have been rough, hard hearted people. Generations of ruthless people, bred families of inconsiderate a**holes, occasionally there will be exceptions in these families, but they are tougher, less refined- with or without money.

You can see it in conflict, some people would like to find out the problem, analyse it, others want to end it immediately - they have no ability to cope with the stress, but SOME people thrive on contention, getting the upper hand and being bullies. They want the other to kowtow to them, they don't care about wrong or right, just the fact that they call the shots. Peace in the home? irrelevant, honesty - disposable, any type of learning from the whole situation - forget it, this is crude survival and domination.

In the animal kingdom you see it, and here it is called survival of the toughest. So those with strong base desires and undeveloped brains are more likely to react in this crude grab all, push others down, me first attitude. You even see it in the duck pond, some ducks bite and push the others away so they get the bread, boy do I enjoy making sure these pushy gets don't get any of my bread

spot on , good old fashioned common sense there

no great mystery to why some people bully , they do it cause they like it , this modern pc liberal narrative does more harm than good and actually lets the bullys of the hook completley , the attitude is amoral

difference between bullying btw and being tough , toughest guy i went to school with and still know wasnt a bully yet he could beat anyone in a fight , strong as three men yet wouldnt verbally hurt anyone

mirekb

Deleted User wrote: »

I think your taking too much a simplistic view about a bully's motives. In order to behave like this it is a little more than attention seeking that is wrong. These people are damaged.

Also the biggest fuel for Bullies is strength in numbers so to counteract this the victim needs enough people to disapprove of this in their favour.

My 8 year old niece was being excluded in school recently and she was very off with us at home. It got so bad my sister sent her to a therapist. She was being excluded by one of the girls who we thought she was friends with and was told by the therapist that in order to deal with it she needed to let the bully know that she was aware of the bullies behaviour toward her. The bully ran off crying and since then the whole dynamic has changed for the better. They are now great friends. Also the therapist told my niece that the reason the bully is the way she is is down to a certain great insecurity in her home and there could be alot of truth in that as her mother suffers bouts of depression

But that's it exactly - your (very brave) niece took control of the situation and the bully had to decide whether to become irrelevant (continue the bullying behaviour) or relevant (change the behaviour). THe bonus was the bully was a good kid and actually felt guilt!

mirekb

leggo wrote: »

I was a bully in school. I'm doing a lot of work in helping with anti-bullying research these days, and spreading awareness in what actually helps the bullying stop (which is all we want, ultimately). What I'm finding is that people react with their emotions in coming up with their opinions and suggestions which, while understandable, isn't necessarily helpful or constructive.

During the week, TheJournal.ie were kind enough to publish a column that I wrote on the subject. Have a read if you like, I think some might find the results of what stopped the bullying interesting.

Most recently, I have been working with anti-bullying workshops in secondary schools. There I have found that the kids actually seem to respond to what we're suggesting. Whether it pays off in the long-term or not is yet to be seen, but we'll see. It's certainly a new approach. And everything that has been tried in the past certainly hasn't worked; if anything, things have gotten worse.

What will help this problem go away is to understand why it happens to begin with. I also feel that educating people while young will change their behaviour growing older. I don't think legislation will work. Schools and workplaces implementing effective policies that consider the nature of bullying, then enacting them, will.

This is exactly what we need, people who understand it from all sides. Well done, and the guilt you feel is because you are a decent person.

gozunda

leggo wrote: »

...
Most recently, I have been working with anti-bullying workshops in secondary schools. There I have found that the kids actually seem to respond to what we're suggesting. Whether it pays off in the long-term or not is yet to be seen, but we'll see. It's certainly a new approach. And everything that has been tried in the past certainly hasn't worked; if anything, things have gotten worse.

What will help this problem go away is to understand why it happens to begin with. I also feel that educating people while young will change their behaviour growing older. I don't think legislation will work. Schools and workplaces implementing effective policies that consider the nature of bullying, then enacting them, will.

Well done on bringing Bullying behavior out in the open however
like physical assault - bullying / physiological assault is always going to be with us

We can of course use education to help educate the young that bullying is not acceptable behavior but that alone will not stop it happening and it does not provide for a deterrent against those who choose to bully irrespective of what they have been taught

Adults, chuldren and teenagers all engage in bullying behaviour and harm others doing so.

Its this that requires legislation so that the victims of such behavior have some form of redress where they have been bullied and protection against the continuation of such bullying

Many employers especially are the least likely to deal with bullying as it is of en easier for them to pretend that it does not happen. Current employment legislation does not allow the actual perpetrator to be reprimanded or prosecuted and instead places a near impossible onus on the victim to fight for their rights through a legal minefield

I believe in the role of education but I also believe that bullying must be assigned as an offense against the person where such behavior has caused actual harm

leggo

leggo wrote: »

I was a bully in school. I'm doing a lot of work in helping with anti-bullying research these days, and spreading awareness in what actually helps the bullying stop (which is all we want, ultimately). What I'm finding is that people react with their emotions in coming up with their opinions and suggestions which, while understandable, isn't necessarily helpful or constructive.

During the week, TheJournal.ie were kind enough to publish a column that I wrote on the subject. Have a read if you like, I think some might find the results of what stopped the bullying interesting.

Most recently, I have been working with anti-bullying workshops in secondary schools. There I have found that the kids actually seem to respond to what we're suggesting. Whether it pays off in the long-term or not is yet to be seen, but we'll see. It's certainly a new approach. And everything that has been tried in the past certainly hasn't worked; if anything, things have gotten worse.

What will help this problem go away is to understand why it happens to begin with. I also feel that educating people while young will change their behaviour growing older. I don't think legislation will work. Schools and workplaces implementing effective policies that consider the nature of bullying, then enacting them, will.

Fair play. It proves that attitudes can change with the right education on the matter. I think the perpetrators, the victims and the supervisors all need to be continuously trained and it is especially important that we have the right people in the middle on this one. My belief is that bullies in most cases ARE NOT AWARE of the level of bullying they are inflicting on others and if anything they wouldnt even classify their behaviour as bullying if they gave a wholehearted honest opinion on the matter. They are in denial

Of course its an ongoing battle as youngsters or even adults will bring home problems into school/work and no one quite knows what goes on inside four walls so it has to be dealt with in the aftermath as opposed to prevention being better than cure.

mirekb

Deleted User wrote: »

Fair play. It proves that attitudes can change with the right education on the matter. I think the perpetrators, the victims and the supervisors all need to be continuously trained and it is especially important that we have the right people in the middle on this one. My belief is that bullies in most cases ARE NOT AWARE of the level of bullying they are inflicting on others and if anything they wouldnt even classify their behaviour as bullying if they gave a wholehearted honest opinion on the matter. They are in denial

Of course its an ongoing battle as youngsters or even adults will bring home problems into school/work and no one quite knows what goes on inside four walls so it has to be dealt with in the aftermath as opposed to prevention being better than cure.

And that the stigma of victimhood is removed.

mirekb

mirekb wrote: »

But that's it exactly - your (very brave) niece took control of the situation and the bully had to decide whether to become irrelevant (continue the bullying behaviour) or relevant (change the behaviour). THe bonus was the bully was a good kid and actually felt guilt!

Everyone has a good side and a bad side. She just realised it her behaviour where perhaps many others wouldn't have done so as quick.

mirekb

Deleted User wrote: »

Everyone has a good side and a bad side. She just realised it her behaviour where perhaps many others wouldn't have done so as quick.

I'm not a believer in 'good' and 'bad' as such - just in all the variants of nature. I believe some people are born with no empathy, and some people are born with loads and that most of us are in the middle somewhere.

So, the bully who bullies because of as outside factor like being bullied themself, insecurity, whatever is one thing but some just plain enjoy it and they're the ones to keep the fcuk away from!

Pottler

goose_gladwell wrote: »

was nothing like that

this charming lady was a sectarian bigot who,s hatred and contempt was absolute and unconditional , then their was the slander and lies - charechter assasination

good humoured hazing is one thing , visceral contempt is another

have you ever had somone say the following to you

" give me one reason why i shouldnt treat you like sh1t "

" id piss myself laughing if you got your head kicked in "

the boss told me to get over it

I'm really good at meaning one thing and managing to convey the opposite when I post. When I said "a bit of banter"(feck off) and "horseplay"(feck off), I meant they could feck off if they thought that was what they were at and that I would tolerate it.

DramaQuee

Regarding bullies, I remember the words of Al Capone:
You get more with a kind word and a gun than a kind word alone.

The real bullies use their 'guns', their lilly livered henchmen, sometimes their duplicitous charm in front of adults. End of the day they are 'getting something' and they are ruthless getting it, without conscience for those they crush and abuse.

Sure some bullies may change, or run off crying if they realise they hurt someone, you can be sure they were not as vicious as real die-hard rotten bullies. There is such a thing as a bad inclined person, who can do things the rest of us would never do, no matter what we endure. It simply is not in our nature.

We can all be good and bad, but I believe we all do not have the same capacity for badness. For example, I may have say, a capacity for 5 litres of badness, with vindictiveness thrown in. Another could have Lough Dan of evilness within with viciousness - completely different. It's the same with love, some people can humble you with their tenacity and capacity to continue a tough road and express love no matter what harshness they have traveled through.

mirekb

mirekb wrote: »

I'm not a believer in 'good' and 'bad' as such - just in all the variants of nature. I believe some people are born with no empathy, and some people are born with loads and that most of us are in the middle somewhere.

So, the bully who bullies because of as outside factor like being bullied themself, insecurity, whatever is one thing but some just plain enjoy it and they're the ones to keep the fcuk away from!

I think they enjoy it because in a fúcked up way it humanises them. Fills that void which the vulnerability and insecurity has left in their lives .

kerry4sam

DramaQuee wrote: »

Regarding bullies, I remember the words of Al Capone:
You get more with a kind word and a gun than a kind word alone.

The real bullies use their 'guns', their lilly livered henchmen, sometimes their duplicitous charm in front of adults. End of the day they are 'getting something' and they are ruthless getting it, without conscience for those they crush and abuse.

Sure some bullies may change, or run off crying if they realise they hurt someone, you can be sure they were not as vicious as real die-hard rotten bullies. There is such a thing as a bad inclined person, who can do things the rest of us would never do, no matter what we endure. It simply is not in our nature.

We can all be good and bad, but I believe we all do not have the same capacity for badness. For example, I may have say, a capacity for 5 litres of badness, with vindictiveness thrown in. Another could have Lough Dan of evilness within with viciousness - completely different. It's the same with love, some people can humble you with their tenacity and capacity to continue a tough road and express love no matter what harshness they have traveled through.

It is this type of person I encountered. I know they have very high contacts and the one who initiated the bullying has a very close relationship with a senior member with the contacts. I am currently following protocols but not expecting anything considering the people involved and their contacts, but will be taking this to every door possible in the New Year to highlight this and bring to an end once and for all once I find out just how serious they take their protocols.

Bullying as per guidelines is not tolerated, so I am going to see just how useful their contacts are to them when I start banging on some doors if / when they use their contacts to wash over the fact I was bullied, abused and discriminated against in the workplace. It will be interesting to see just how serious employers take this behaviour in the workplace, if they take it serious at all. As I said though, the person who initiated the bullying has a very close relationship with a senior member who is covering her back and abused his own position in the process by tolerating this behaviour toward me to maintain their very close relationship. Devious and dishonest to say the very least!

Would legislation to criminalise bullying assist in this situation? Doubtful when people are willing and able to use their contacts to cover their asses.

DramaQuee

DramaQuee wrote: »

Regarding bullies, I remember the words of Al Capone:
You get more with a kind word and a gun than a kind word alone.

The real bullies use their 'guns', their lilly livered henchmen, sometimes their duplicitous charm in front of adults. End of the day they are 'getting something' and they are ruthless getting it, without conscience for those they crush and abuse.

.

So just because your a victim, do you think it gives you a right to use fear and intimidation? Does two wrongs make a right? Do you think you could handle the sudden power you would get from threatening someone and yet you are suddenly vindicated to take this course of action by virtue of having being bullied?

mirekb

Deleted User wrote: »

I think they enjoy it because in a fúcked up way it humanises them. Fills that void which the vulnerability and insecurity has left in their lives .

I think so too. for some of them.

But I do think that some are just born like that. There's a kid up the road whose mum is a good friend of mine. Since he was tiny he was the type to pinch others when noone was looking and last year he was caught hitting a cat with a shovel. The scary part is there's no anger, or expression on his face most of the time. Totally flat eyes. But when he's hurting something he's smiling. I wouldn't let my son be alone with him and his mother is so worried she has had him in therapy since he was three. The therapist says he demonstrates no remorse at all. Just looks at her blankly and ignores her. He's only 7 and I'm sure there's a label for him but the label is just a fancy name for psychopath

leggo

gozunda wrote: »

Well done on bringing Bullying behavior out in the open however
like physical assault - bullying / physiological assault is always going to be with us

I wholeheartedly agree. While people believe that it may be an organised campaign perpetrated by an all-powerful bully, in truth I have found it to be more of a reaction; a reflex. Where others may choose to react to difficult circumstances by self-harming or worse, something within a bully's character causes them to lash out in this way.

What can change is that we learn how to identify when someone is doing it and how we handle it: not just the relevant authorities, but what you or I can do if we witness it in action. People will still try it, but if we have the right level of understanding and knowledge to react quickly, then it can also be stamped out quicker.

Many employers especially are the least likely to deal with bullying as it is of en easier for them to pretend that it does not happen. Current employment legislation does not allow the actual perpetrator to be reprimanded or prosecuted and instead places a near impossible onus on the victim to fight for their rights through a legal minefield

Agreed, and I think the key here is to remove the stigma of bullying. We need to look at it like racism or sexism is these days, i.e. when someone reports being bullied to an authority, it immediately gets taken seriously and is investigated. They aren't seen as weak, aren't told they should "suck it up", and definitely aren't shrugged off. Authorities also need to know what they can do about it and have very clear guidelines for how to act in such circumstances. Your boss in work should have done courses on bullying, they should have a handbook that tells them how to act effectively, and if they don't follow said guidelines, they should be considered in breach of employment law and the company punished appropriately.

Deleted User wrote: »

My belief is that bullies in most cases ARE NOT AWARE of the level of bullying they are inflicting on others and if anything they wouldnt even classify their behaviour as bullying if they gave a wholehearted honest opinion on the matter. They are in denial

This. You've hit the nail on the head, sir.

This is why the idea of severely punishing the bully doesn't sit well with me: the bully will see themselves as a victim, somehow, either directly (in my case it was a reaction to being bullied myself) or even in complex ways, like they will feel wronged by society (in cases of depression etc).

So to come down hard on them will only have the effect of compounding that misery, as I'll explain in a second. I understand why people, especially those who have been bullied, want justice and to see bullies punished...but if it doesn't work, then what purpose does it serve other than to satisfy people's vengeful thoughts?

Of course its an ongoing battle as youngsters or even adults will bring home problems into school/work and no one quite knows what goes on inside four walls so it has to be dealt with in the aftermath as opposed to prevention being better than cure.

This is another major point that a lot disregard. I have yet to encounter one person who admits to bullying that didn't suffer from some kind of unfortunate circumstances, be it they were picked on like me, problems at home etc. Their victims obviously see them in a different light: surely a person capable of making another this miserable couldn't suffer themselves? They are seen as all-powerful. This doesn't make that so.

So to treat these people as psychopaths who just 'enjoy' bullying people will only compound their feelings. Tell someone they're a psycho enough times and, eventually, they'll start to believe it and act accordingly. It's a vicious cycle.

Obviously, the bullying victims can't be expected to empathise with the bully (though this also works when possible; I've witnessed first-hand that being able to see their tormentor in a sympathetic light can empower them to a degree), so the responsibility rests with the rest of us in the middle and how we react: in supporting the victim, making those who need to know about the situation aware of it, and helping ensure the bully gets dealt with appropriately.

DramaQuee

Deleted User wrote: »

So just because your a victim, do you think it gives you a right to use fear and intimidation? Does two wrongs make a right? Do you think you could handle the sudden power you would get from threatening someone and yet you are suddenly vindicated to take this course of action by virtue of having being bullied?

Perhaps you misunderstood.

I will explain exactly what I meant.

Bullies think like Al Capone etc.

I think bullies need to be clamped down on. Perhaps due to the tardiness of the night and the fact English is not my first language, I mis-spell and use unusual juxtaposing of words? But you have totally misinterpreted the essence I wished to express.

mirekb

mirekb wrote: »

I think so too. for some of them.

But I do think that some are just born like that. There's a kid up the road whose mum is a good friend of mine. Since he was tiny he was the type to pinch others when noone was looking and last year he was caught hitting a cat with a shovel. The scary part is there's no anger, or expression on his face most of the time. Totally flat eyes. But when he's hurting something he's smiling. I wouldn't let my son be alone with him and his mother is so worried she has had him in therapy since he was three. The therapist says he demonstrates no remorse at all. Just looks at her blankly and ignores her. He's only 7 and I'm sure there's a label for him but the label is just a fancy name for psychopath

Even from a young age we can experience things that make us act in inhuman ways. Im an idealist but i honestly believe your friend could get to the bottom of his behaviour eventually. If she just gives up and believes he will grow up to be a dangerous person then he will be but she has to stay strong and get to the bottom of it.

DramaQuee

DramaQuee wrote: »

Perhaps you misunderstood.

I will explain exactly what I meant.

Bullies think like Al Capone etc.

I think bullies need to be clamped down on. Perhaps due to the tardiness of the night and the fact English is not my first language, I mis-spell and use unusual juxtaposing of words? But you have totally misinterpreted the essence I wished to express.

Fair enough its just the way you stated it and opened the post i get what you mean now apologies

DramaQuee

I hasten to add, tipp_Gunner I am not a victim, indeed I am extremely assertive. However I have seen bullying in a school in this country with an innocent child which would not be tolerated in any civilised country and I have met it head on.

Thankfully the Gaelscoil is able to deal effectively with bullying.

mirekb

Deleted User wrote: »

Even from a young age we can experience things that make us act in inhuman ways. Im an idealist but i honestly believe your friend could get to the bottom of his behaviour eventually. If she just gives up and believes he will grow up to be a dangerous person then he will be but she has to stay strong and get to the bottom of it.

We can agree to disagree

DramaQuee wrote: »

I hasten to add, tipp_Gunner I am not a victim, indeed I am extremely assertive. However I have seen bullying in a school in this country with an innocent child which would not be tolerated in any civilised country and I have met it head on.

Thankfully the Gaelscoil is able to deal effectively with bullying.

That was amazing the way you supported your child, and will be a great help for her getting over the long term effects of the bullying.