Not interested or just out of your league?

leggo

Yeah, I wouldn't walk up to someone on the street and ask them to be your girlfriend. Restraining orders have been given for less.

blacklilly

I would love to be approached by a guy on the dart, in a coffee shop, book store etc. Obviously if the guy was a creep you'd sense it pretty quickly but I wouldn't automatically think someone a creep if they approached me while I was going about my business.

I remember a few years ago seeing this incredibly handsome man,now I'm pretty good looking (there's plenty better looking than me) but this guy was amazing and I thought to myself "what have I got to loose" so I started a conversation with him and gave him my number, we ended up going out on a few dates:)

A friend of mine is very very good looking
(she knows it)one night she was complaining that Irish men don't approach women, next thing this guy comes over to us (usually when a guy approaches us, he's interested in my friend) he wasn't the best looking but a really nice guy, wasn't drunk and could hold a good conversation, she totally snuffed him. Then about 20 minutes later a sleezy drunken good looking guy comes over and she's nearly licking his feet.
I pulled her up on this the next day, she is of the opinion that initial attraction is paramount and without it there's no point.

I believe the reason for this is because she puts so much emphasis on her own looks and men judge her mostly on her looks that she cannot fathom getting to know someone's personality, it is this reason that although she is very good looking she has never had a successful relationship.

leggo

blacklilly wrote: »

A friend of mine is very very good looking
(she knows it)one night she was complaining that Irish men don't approach women, next thing this guy comes over to us (usually when a guy approaches us, he's interested in my friend) he wasn't the best looking but a really nice guy, wasn't drunk and could hold a good conversation, she totally snuffed him. Then about 20 minutes later a sleezy drunken good looking guy comes over and she's nearly licking his feet.
I pulled her up on this the next day, she is of the opinion that initial attraction is paramount and without it there's no point.

I believe the reason for this is because she puts so much emphasis on her own looks and men judge her mostly on her looks that she cannot fathom getting to know someone's personality, it is this reason that although she is very good looking she has never had a successful relationship.

As a lad, I read that slightly differently. I firmly believes that she believes what she says...but I'd also put money on it that it's not 100% the case.

If a guy can't get a girl into conversation in a club, he's doing it wrong. He's either being too forthright or not forthright enough about his intentions (depending on what she's into...in which case he's reading the situation wrong). If she's very good-looking then it's likely the lads made her...decide too soon, put it that way.

Everyone is up for just having the craic or a decent, meaningful conversation. But if a lad basically lets a girl who's not yet sold on them make up their mind before they show they're interesting enough, it's not gonna happen.

I'm a big believer that lads (and women, though in different ways) should hold themselves accountable in some way for every time something goes awry; that way they can actually change and improve. If it's all someone else's fault...what can you ever do to change that? If it's your fault then at least you can do something about it.

That said, I do agree that a lot of women also look for the wrong thing when sizing up a partner. So you get situations like your mate where they make the same mistake again and again.

Scanlas The 2nd

leggo wrote: »

As a lad, I read that slightly differently. I firmly believes that she believes what she says...but I'd also put money on it that it's not 100% the case.

If a guy can't get a girl into conversation in a club, he's doing it wrong. He's either being too forthright or not forthright enough about his intentions (depending on what she's into...in which case he's reading the situation wrong). If she's very good-looking then it's likely the lads made her...decide too soon, put it that way.

Everyone is up for just having the craic or a decent, meaningful conversation. But if a lad basically lets a girl who's not yet sold on them make up their mind before they show they're interesting enough, it's not gonna happen.

I'm a big believer that lads (and women, though in different ways) should hold themselves accountable in some way for every time something goes awry; that way they can actually change and improve. If it's all someone else's fault...what can you ever do to change that? If it's your fault then at least you can do something about it.

That said, I do agree that a lot of women also look for the wrong thing when sizing up a partner. So you get situations like your mate where they make the same mistake again and again.

Brilliant post. Completely agree, especially about making a woman decide too early. Have some fun conversation and see if she has the qualities that you like first before you make the decision to move things forward with her.

cantdecide

blacklilly wrote: »

...this guy was amazing and I thought to myself "what have I got to loose" so I started a conversation with him and gave him my number, we ended up going out on a few dates:)

Go you!

blacklilly wrote: »

...she is of the opinion that initial attraction is paramount and without it there's no point. I believe the reason for this is because she puts so much emphasis on her own looks and men judge her mostly on her looks that she cannot fathom getting to know someone's personality, it is this reason that although she is very good looking she has never had a successful relationship.

I hope she learns attraction is important but initial attraction lasts about five minutes. When you're single for a long time, it's easy to develop a skewed view of the dating world. I used to think that I was shallow and only interested in girls that were out of my league but the girls that really made me come over all crushy, were often not the most instantly fancyable.

leggo wrote: »

...Everyone is up for just having the craic or a decent, meaningful conversation. But if a lad basically lets a girl who's not yet sold on them make up their mind before they show they're interesting enough, it's not gonna happen...

In the example above, the lady could dismiss you long before you had the chance to have the conversation or the craic. So...

leggo wrote: »

...If a guy can't get a girl into conversation in a club, he's doing it wrong. I'm a big believer that lads (and women, though in different ways) should hold themselves accountable in some way for every time something goes awry; that way they can actually change and improve. If it's all someone else's fault...what can you ever do to change that? If it's your fault then at least you can do something about it.

You just have to read through the Personal Issues forum to see the amount of people, whether the approacher or the approachee that some outside factor often gets in the way. Horrific relationship experiences. Or she might flirt all night long and then go home to her BF. The list goes on and on. How would you ever know if it was truly your fault or not? Of course we have to learn from our mistakes but if I blamed myself for every failed approach, I'd have joined the foreign legion by now. I have re-evaluated my approach constantly for years but still, we're not all equal and some of us just don't fit into this type of environment so I keep hearing people talk down saying what works for them will work for me. It simply never has and never will.

leggo wrote: »

...That said, I do agree that a lot of women also look for the wrong thing when sizing up a partner. So you get situations like your mate where they make the same mistake again and again.

Blokes do this too. I have a close friend who's getting over his latest relationship which was disastrous as it was brief and I want to wring his neck because I know he's going to do it all again next week. FFS, she spent half her time flirting with me to the point where I was being asked if something was going on:rolleyes:

Daveysil15

blacklilly wrote: »

A friend of mine is very very good looking
(she knows it)one night she was complaining that Irish men don't approach women, next thing this guy comes over to us (usually when a guy approaches us, he's interested in my friend) he wasn't the best looking but a really nice guy, wasn't drunk and could hold a good conversation, she totally snuffed him. Then about 20 minutes later a sleezy drunken good looking guy comes over and she's nearly licking his feet.

Sometimes the pressure put on men to be initiators, but to avoid seeming creepy or aggressive, can lead to an unpleasant double bind. I’ve often heard women complain about been approached by guys in clubs who are only after one thing, but what some of them really mean is that the guys who were approaching them just weren't attractive enough. For the unattractive guy it can often be a case of 'damned if I do and damned if I don't.'

Not all women have this attitude or course, but I'm sure there are plenty who think the same way as your friend. Some people just put more emphasis on looks.

Scanlas The 2nd

cantdecide wrote: »

In the example above, the lady could dismiss you long before you had the chance to have the conversation or the craic.

:

Approach the two girls together and spread the attention between both. She can't dismiss you when the other girl is clearly having fun and wants you to stay.

leggo

cantdecide wrote: »

In the example above, the lady could dismiss you long before you had the chance to have the conversation or the craic. So...

Of course she can, but I'd say if you were to take the amount of times they genuinely dismiss you for nothing, versus the amount of times they dismiss you for something you've done wrong, the former would occur around 2-3% of the time. Lads who feel down on themselves would probably put figure at around 60-70%.

I'll often grab lads that I know and show them other ways of doing what they do wrong, and this is a big one. You'll have lads that'll go up and almost ask for their permission to speak (too boring and passive), guys that will stand and wait for the girl to finish speaking (creepy), guys that will come in too strong and interrupt a conversation (too drunk/clumsy/obnoxious) etc. And the one thing all of them have in common is that they feel afterwards that the girl was being the bitch in the interaction, that they were only 'trying to have a laugh'.

But hovering around someone you've never met before, or interrupting their conversation passively/aggressively is hardly a good way to get talking to another human being, is it?

Lads often feel, as well, that the girl didn't give them a 'chance'. But what right does anyone have to get a 'chance' off someone? That's almost as if they're begging for someone to pity them enough to talk to them for a few minutes. Be funny, be interesting, be someone they actually might want to talk to. Then carry yourself in that manner and you'll get plenty of 'chances'.

Daveysil15

leggo wrote: »

I'd say if you were to take the amount of times they genuinely dismiss you for nothing, versus the amount of times they dismiss you for something you've done wrong, the former would occur around 2-3% of the time. Lads who feel down on themselves would probably put figure at around 60-70%.

You'll have lads that'll go up and almost ask for their permission to speak (too boring and passive), guys that will stand and wait for the girl to finish speaking (creepy), guys that will come in too strong and interrupt a conversation (too drunk/clumsy/obnoxious) etc.

Or she could already have a boyfriend, or she only wants to hang out with her mates, or she has just had a crap day... there could be any number of reasons. Some people over analyse and try to figure out who's to blame. Just move on, try again.

shrewd

LyndaMcL wrote: »

No such things as leagues, IMO. Looks and personality attraction is all subjective, so what I love, somebody else may hate.

couldn't have said it much better.

i have been surprised quite a lot in the past by women that i think are "out of my league" and those that i think are in or below my "so-called" league.

i can still remember clearly the day i scored this "out-of-my-league" woman. i remember going to the bathroom once to check if i've turned to Brad pitt overnight.

Zirconia

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Examples?

Johnny Vegas & Maia Dunphy

JimmyCrackCorn

I really hate the whole idea and sound of "not in my league", it just sounds like a cop out for not trying.

Iv talked to and dated plenty of women considered "not in my league". The phrase always seems tied to looks which in realty means little as personality is king we all get old and saggy.......

SuperInfinity

JimmyCrackCorn wrote: »

I really hate the whole idea and sound of "not in my league", it just sounds like a cop out for not trying.

Iv talked to and dated plenty of women considered "not in my league". The phrase always seems tied to looks which in realty means little as personality is king we all get old and saggy.......

By that logic people would tend to drop leagues as they get older, and would be in the same league as ugly young people. However that's not how it goes... there is also a "wealth" and "social ability/intelligence" aspect to it.

"leagues" is generally a term for kids/teenagers. However the one justification for the term might be for some girl that is obviously outrageously extremely hot and sophisticated etc., and then saying she is out of someone's league might be a useful way of putting it.

In nearly all animals there's a "pecking order" and it's often very well established in primates (such as ourselves). The idea of high-ranking and low-ranking individuals in society is a natural one, unfair as it may be in today's society. Sometimes all that's left is the ugly bitches... trying to like them may be an art and a challenge in itself.

*shrugs* A wise man once said: "Life sucks, then you die."

Cheerful Spring

In general women act odd when in niteclubs, especially when there in the company of friends and other people they know. I've approached women by myself, and have got a weird stare from them (who are you, want you doing kind of a stare) i tend to make a sharp exit when that happens!

I'm above average looking never had issues meeting women, so it must be my aftershave they don't like?

Dating sites. Well i've had a number of really stunning ladies contact me recently before Christmas ( and i mean stunning) i felt intimated if i ever met one of them i would not measure up. So i did not bother replying back.

Unorthodox

I know loads of men that are out of my league simply because they're straight and the really good looking gay men I always chanced my arm.

cantdecide

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

I've approached women by myself, and have got a weird stare from them (who are you, want you doing kind of a stare) i tend to make a sharp exit when that happens!.....I'm above average looking never had issues meeting women, so it must be my aftershave they don't like?

They smell your fear, I'd say to put it bluntly!! If you've got looks on your side, you can probably feign cockiness/ confidence well enough to make an impression.

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

...i've had a number of really stunning ladies contact me recently before Christmas ( and i mean stunning) i felt intimated if i ever met one of them i would not measure up. So i did not bother replying back.

Bloody hopeless you are! How many blokes would kill to be in this position. This is just an extension of the traditional fear of rejection which you seem to be able to deal with so get replying dude. You're one of the lucky ones!

Daveysil15

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

In general women act odd when in niteclubs, especially when there in the company of friends and other people they know. I've approached women by myself, and have got a weird stare from them (who are you, want you doing kind of a stare) i tend to make a sharp exit when that happens!

When you say by yourself, do you mean you go to clubs alone and approach women because that could seem a bit creepy? I've often got that stare myself, although I don't resort to runing out the door because of it. It's usually the women that run away. :pac:

Raekwon

Zirconia wrote: »

Johnny Vegas & Maia Dunphy

That works both ways though



Plus at least Johnny Vegas has a sense of humour to match his bank balance.

tomthetank

leggo wrote: »

Of course she can, but I'd say if you were to take the amount of times they genuinely dismiss you for nothing, versus the amount of times they dismiss you for something you've done wrong, the former would occur around 2-3% of the time. Lads who feel down on themselves would probably put figure at around 60-70%.

I'll often grab lads that I know and show them other ways of doing what they do wrong, and this is a big one. You'll have lads that'll go up and almost ask for their permission to speak (too boring and passive), guys that will stand and wait for the girl to finish speaking (creepy), guys that will come in too strong and interrupt a conversation (too drunk/clumsy/obnoxious) etc. And the one thing all of them have in common is that they feel afterwards that the girl was being the bitch in the interaction, that they were only 'trying to have a laugh'.

But hovering around someone you've never met before, or interrupting their conversation passively/aggressively is hardly a good way to get talking to another human being, is it?

Lads often feel, as well, that the girl didn't give them a 'chance'. But what right does anyone have to get a 'chance' off someone? That's almost as if they're begging for someone to pity them enough to talk to them for a few minutes. Be funny, be interesting, be someone they actually might want to talk to. Then carry yourself in that manner and you'll get plenty of 'chances'.

Oh good God this. If you're a single man and looking to meet someone on a night out, please read this. Repeatedly.

I'm a single girl (despite the username!) and long since gave up on meeting a guy on a night out in Ireland. Based mainly on personal experience - no relationship I've ever had has ever resulted from a random encounter on a night out. You'll get the guys looking for their ONS (yes it's that obvious), the guys who converse with you as though there's a gun to their head ('have to pull, have to pull, have to pull...' very attractive), the guys who think their work is done once they've approached and initiated conversation and make no further attempt to capture your imagination, so you just stand their feeling uneasy, awkward, wanting to get away as fast as possible.

Either that or it's complete rudeness - interrupting a conversation and completely excluding the person I'm talking to, absolute intoxication (you sort of should be able to walk or string a sentence together if you're going to approach someone, otherwise it's just sort of rude and completely annoying.

I'm aware I sound like a thundering b1tch. But I think I echo the experience of many females in Ireland, not least my own single friends.

I'm actually lovely (My mammy tells me so all the time!) I'm pretty good socially, friendly, talkative, get on with pretty much everyone, attractive, (and what's more, modest), love talking to strangers. I live in Canada and meet new people all the time, but any relationship I've ever had has been through friends of friends, where seemingly that same cold-approach and all its pressures, nerves, awkwardness just doesn't exist - people get to know each other a lot more organically, there's no real do-or-die! about introducing yourself to someone new.

Humour helps, a hell of a lot. Irish lads really can't be bet on that front. Don't put a woman on a pedestal or expect her to take the reins or give her all the power while you're conversing - it's an immediate turn off to feel like some guy is completely at your mercy and has no confidence in himself to be assertive and steer the conversation, pull the piss out of you a little, not be afraid to be flirty, touch on the shoulder, lots of smiling, that sort of thing.

It can be just as frustrating for girls, believe me. Especially when under different circumstances you'd probably get on with this person like a house on fire, but it's potential is just destroyed by getting off on the wrong front.

seenitall

tomthetank wrote: »

Humour helps, a hell of a lot. Irish lads really can't be bet on that front. Don't put a woman on a pedestal or expect her to take the reins or give her all the power while you're conversing - it's an immediate turn off to feel like some guy is completely at your mercy and has no confidence in himself to be assertive and steer the conversation, pull the piss out of you a little, not be afraid to be flirty, touch on the shoulder, lots of smiling, that sort of thing.

Ah I dunno tom; horses for courses and all that...

Daveysil15

tomthetank wrote: »

I'm a single girl (despite the username!) and long since gave up on meeting a guy on a night out in Ireland. Based mainly on personal experience - no relationship I've ever had has ever resulted from a random encounter on a night out. You'll get the guys looking for their ONS (yes it's that obvious), the guys who converse with you as though there's a gun to their head ('have to pull, have to pull, have to pull...' very attractive), the guys who think their work is done once they've approached and initiated conversation and make no further attempt to capture your imagination, so you just stand their feeling uneasy, awkward, wanting to get away as fast as possible.

Either that or it's complete rudeness - interrupting a conversation and completely excluding the person I'm talking to, absolute intoxication (you sort of should be able to walk or string a sentence together if you're going to approach someone, otherwise it's just sort of rude and completely annoying.

Surely not all guys fall into the categories you've described? Granted I have lived in Canada myself for a while and did find it a lot easier to meet women there compared to a night out here, but its not like Irish men have never pulled on a night out here. We're not all blundering baffoons. It can work on occasion.

But if it is as hopeless as you say it is, then that doesn't leave too many options for the fellas. Approaching random people outside of the pub/club scene wouldn't exactly be the norm here. So what does that leave you with? Meeting people through friends or work? Maybe if the women did some of the approaching it might make things a bit easier, seen as you think that all guys here who frequent clubs are either rude, desperate or unable to hold a decent conversation.

Raekwon

Daveysil15 wrote: »

Maybe if the women did some of the approaching it might make things a bit easier, seen as you think that all guys here who frequent clubs are either rude, desperate or unable to hold a decent conversation.

This +1,000,000

There is very little point in comparing Ireland to places like Canada as our dating custom's are totally different. The burden is very much on the shoulders of men to do the approaching over here while in Canada it's just as common for a female to approach a male then visa versa. Their entire dating scene is alot more relaxed as a result which makes it feel more natural and less awkward to approach somebody, especially since they aren't as clannish as us.

beks101

Raekwon wrote: »

The burden is very much on the shoulders of men to do the approaching over here while in Canada it's just as common for a female to approach a male then visa versa.

Nah, not really to be honest.

I've lived and dated in Toronto for more than 2 years now and I'd rarely see or hear of a female doing the approaching. In fairness though that's probably because they'd rarely have to, dating is a lot less of a big deal over here, more casual in nature, multi dating is a feature also and men would commonly approach you in all walks of life, subway, supermarket, public parks, malls etc

Agree with the "clannish" thing though, I think we Irish tend to 'embarrass' a lot easier than bigger countries & more culturally diverse countries because with the three degrees of separation in a way you're always looking over your shoulder to see who knows you, who's going to tell the neighbours!

That's distinctly lacking in bigger countries like Canada, where you're simply not going to bump into the same person twice unless it's planned & intentional. Which can be quite liberating dating wise and just in general.

hollypink

On Charlize Theron and Eric Stonestreet dating, didn't he debunk that last year? Can't search for it as I'm in work but I'm pretty sure he laughed at the idea. Which would sort of back up the idea that there are 'leagues' when it comes to attractiveness.

cantdecide

+1

I think it's fair to say that examples of celebrity couples are pretty redundant in the context of this thread anyway.

jaffacakesyum

cantdecide wrote: »

+1

I think it's fair to say that examples of celebrity couples are pretty redundant in the context of this thread anyway.

How? We can't exactly post up pictures of non celebrity examples I know several couples where the woman is WAY better looking than the man but you will just have to take my word for it I guess.

Some more celebrity examples:

Julia Roberts and Lyle Lovett



Salman Rushdie and Padma Lakshmi



Hell even Jay Z would be considered out of Beyonce's league if both of them weren't famous. I think she's gorgeous and he's not great looking :P



Marilyn Monroe and Arthur Miller



Kate Hudson and Chris Robinson



It doesn't matter how many examples I give though, people will always believe in leagues. It makes people feel better why they don't 'get the girl'. And I'm saying this as a bisexual female who has many times met a beautiful woman and thought to myself 'damn she's out of my league'. But I know that's nonsense. She may find me attractive, she may not. But there's no such thing as leagues. Plenty of examples to dispel that.

cantdecide

You can't put someone with massive success, fame and wealth in the same category as, say a student, or a civil servant or shop assistant. It's a massive unfair advantage. Humans are animals that rate each other on a myriad of different criteria and levels. This is undeniable. If someone has some massive advantage over their peers, of course they become hot property even if they are sub-par in other aspects.

Daveysil15

beks101 wrote: »

Agree with the "clannish" thing though, I think we Irish tend to 'embarrass' a lot easier than bigger countries & more culturally diverse countries because with the three degrees of separation in a way you're always looking over your shoulder to see who knows you, who's going to tell the neighbours!

That's distinctly lacking in bigger countries like Canada, where you're simply not going to bump into the same person twice unless it's planned & intentional. Which can be quite liberating dating wise and just in general.

I agree with this. The first girl I dated in Toronto came about kind of accidentally. I got chatting to a girl who was working in a clothes shop. She was telling me how great Toronto was. I said "maybe you could show me around sometime," kind of half joking. She said "I'd love to." We met up the following day. It took me completely by surprise. They're much more laid back when it comes to meeting new people.

jaffacakesyum

cantdecide wrote: »

You can't put someone with massive success, fame and wealth in the same category as, say a student, or a civil servant or shop assistant. It's a massive unfair advantage. Humans are animals that rate each other on a myriad of different criteria and levels. This is undeniable. If someone has some massive advantage over their peers, of course they become hot property even if they are sub-par in other aspects.

I don't agree with this. It's a different story if you have some very attractive woman who is getting with an average/below average looking male celebrtity. Then you have things like money, fame, status to consider (Not necessarily saying that is the case in all situations but the Hugh Hefner types for sure). But when the woman is very attracive and already wealthy, of high status, then surely, in the opinions of many apparantly, she can have the pick of the bunch? She can choose a highly attractive male +/- fame, money, status etc. Why go for a 'below par' partner then?

Daveysil15

jaffacakesyum wrote: »

I don't agree with this. It's a different story if you have some very attractive woman who is getting with an average/below average looking male celebrtity. Then you have things like money, fame, status to consider (Not necessarily saying that is the case in all situations but the Hugh Hefner types for sure). But when the woman is very attracive and already wealthy, of high status, then surely, in the opinions of many apparantly, she can have the pick of the bunch? She can choose a highly attractive male +/- fame, money, status etc. Why go for a 'below par' partner then?

Personality, sense of humour perhaps?

leggo

jaffacakesyum wrote: »

I don't agree with this. It's a different story if you have some very attractive woman who is getting with an average/below average looking male celebrtity. Then you have things like money, fame, status to consider (Not necessarily saying that is the case in all situations but the Hugh Hefner types for sure). But when the woman is very attracive and already wealthy, of high status, then surely, in the opinions of many apparantly, she can have the pick of the bunch? She can choose a highly attractive male +/- fame, money, status etc. Why go for a 'below par' partner then?

I think the true answer lies somewhere in the middle. Having said money, fame and success doesn't necessarily guarantee you your pick of the bunch. If that was the case then people who weren't rich but weren't conventionally attractive would NEVER get a good-looking partner. And that's simply not the case. Neither is the reverse: that all famous people have no trouble getting women. They get more opportunities than you or I, not necessarily the results though.

BUT that money and fame is more likely to give you the kind of confidence and validation that you need to become a confident, attractive person and, thus, attract the best of the best.

Also a more successful or rich partner doesn't necessarily make a 'better' partner either. We get with people, in theory, because they make us happy. I think celebrities hook up with other celebrities moreso for the sake of commonalities and convenience, i.e. it's easier to keep a relationship going with someone who's away filming, or whatever, 6 months of the year when your partner has a similar lifestyle. I don't think it's mainly because they see us 'normies' as below par.

EdenHazard

Leagues exist but I think its more of a social league thing. The more known/popular you are, the greater your appeal.

singlesnights

I never get rejected. I simply find out whether or not a girl has good taste in men.......

EdenHazard

Hahaha I like it.

Idbatterim

few things! first off the celebrity, major talent and wealth thing is a joke comparison for starters.

I believe the reason for this is because she puts so much emphasis on her own looks and men judge her mostly on her looks that she cannot fathom getting to know someone's personality, it is this reason that although she is very good looking she has never had a successful relationship.

Yeah but its bull**** to assume that you cant get personality and looks, the same way it would be BS to assume all below average people have a great personality...

I'm a single girl (despite the username!) and long since gave up on meeting a guy on a night out in Ireland. Based mainly on personal experience - no relationship I've ever had has ever resulted from a random encounter on a night out. You'll get the guys looking for their ONS (yes it's that obvious), the guys who converse with you as though there's a gun to their head ('have to pull, have to pull, have to pull...' very attractive), the guys who think their work is done once they've approached and initiated conversation and make no further attempt to capture your imagination, so you just stand their feeling uneasy, awkward, wanting to get away as fast as possible.

You do realise, that at minimum 90% of the entire male population here who are around your age, go to pubs and clubs? A substantial amount of relationships stem from these first encounters. I have had two. You will get the guys looking for their one night stands & often even when they meet high value females, they will be onto their next, but many will stop if they feel she is a "catch"...

Edenhazard, you situation sounds like few guys I know! I have been out with the conventionally better looking ones and they average guy with the charm or who would chance his arm would have a much better success rate. Mainly as Irish women wont do the approaching, so thats fairly obvious... Some have high self esteem, whether it is warranted or not. Sounds like you may need to improve your sense of self worth...

cantdecide

Idbatterim wrote: »

Edenhazard, you situation sounds like few guys I know! I have been out with the conventionally better looking ones and they average guy with the charm or who would chance his arm would have a much better success rate. Mainly as Irish women wont do the approaching, so thats fairly obvious... Some have high self esteem, whether it is warranted or not. Sounds like you may need to improve your sense of self worth...

But it always comes down to this.

The "*personality", "charm" and "*confidence" issues are the ones that stick in my craw. If these traits aren't your foremost traits but you have the wherewithal to fake them, is it not insincere to treat behaving this way as a means to an end?

Now, change is good and I've changed infinitely over my adult years. However, whether I can suddenly feign super confidence and charm is a moot point for me. I'm never going to be someone that can charm the birds out of the trees (no pun intended:o). It's just not how I roll!! It's not that I lack personality or confidence in the true sense of those words, I'm just not that mad or that sound and I'd rather have a meaningful conversation with someone interesting... that might lead somewhere, than to have a right larf and take someone home that I probably really don't have that much in common with (again, I couldn't even do this if I wanted to- there's nothing wrong with me- just telling me I should become the life and soul is like telling me I should learn to levitate).

So where do you draw the line as to simply distorting or disguising your true character in order to find the means to an end. After all, there are tons of ordinary looking guys who aren't brimming with confidence that are in relationships with very nice girls.


SIZE="2"]Just because I'm introverted doesn't mean I lack *Personality or *confidence although I have to accept that extroversion is far more conducive to success with women in pub/ club settings[/SIZE

beks101

cantdecide wrote: »

But it always comes down to this.

The "*personality", "charm" and "*confidence" issues are the ones that stick in my craw. If these traits aren't your foremost traits but you have the wherewithal to fake them, is it not insincere to treat behaving this way as a means to an end?

I think if you're actively 'changing' yourself in order to pull, you're not going to attract the right person for the ACTUAL you, so it's a bit self-defeating in the long run.

While nowhere near every woman in the bar wants Mr Popular who's beating off women with a stick with his uber confidence and witty charm, that's the guy that's most likely to stand out in that kind of a setting - just like that uber hot, uber makeuped, short-shirted blonde chick is going to stand out to many men in the same environment.

It's a pub/club, all you've got is a few hours. Meaningful conversation or investing time 'to get to know someone' isn't really that likely.

As a woman, I don't like the pressure of working off my looks alone - just like you guys don't like having to have an over-the-top, uncharacteristic of you personality in order to attract.

That's why house parties are great - my big relationships stemmed from them. A group of usually likeminded people, who bring more likeminded people, and the opportunity for great debates and deep conversations and likeminded humour is a lot greater. And you're out of the pressure cooker of feeling like you need to be some kind of performing monkey in order to meet someone.

MaroonAndGreen

SuperInfinity wrote: »

Looks are so ****ing unfair. I wish everyone was equally attractive.



You still get a shot with the FA cup every year. You perform really well, she's going through a rough patch and exercises extremely bad judgement, who knows.

haha brilliant

JimmyCrackCorn

cantdecide wrote: »

But it always comes down to this.

The "*personality", "charm" and "*confidence" issues are the ones that stick in my craw. If these traits aren't your foremost traits but you have the wherewithal to fake them, is it not insincere to treat behaving this way as a means to an end?

This may be just my outlook on life being odd.

I always wonder about faking confidence. Do you not build confidence by faking it. Now I don't mean drink a boat load of beer. I mean you fake some it goes well and you build on it. Even if it goes badly you see the world didn't end and put a positive spin on it.

Personalty and charm are something you develop as-well by simply trying and faking it. Even if you emulate someone initially and then replace it with you.

I came from a background of giant nerd with the classic stunted personal growth. I made a conscious effort to address the areas of my life that were a mess. Social skills and massive social anxious which led to panic in group conversation and inevitably saying something completely off the wall and send folk running for the hills.

I started slowly, took up new hobbies and interests I could talk about. From there I simply started to talk to people slowly pushing it a little bit more each time.

Am I self confident, who knows but I do know there is very little I cant handle if I put my mind to it.

Daveysil15

Idbatterim wrote: »

You do realise, that at minimum 90% of the entire male population here who are around your age, go to pubs and clubs? A substantial amount of relationships stem from these first encounters.

I don't know any couples that have met this way. I'm sure there are a few, but I'd imagine they're in the minority. Or to quote beks below:

beks101 wrote: »

It's a pub/club, all you've got is a few hours. Meaningful conversation or investing time 'to get to know someone' isn't really that likely.

I agree with this and what you said about people changing themselves in order to attract the opposite sex. You need to put in a bit of effort, but trying to change something as fundamental as a personal trait is just silly.

rannerap

I get told quite a bit that I'm out of my boyfriends league. I must not go for looks etc etc The main thing that attracted me to him was his confidence and personality. I find him attractive, and his personality is a big part of that. If someone is great looking but has no personality what's the point. Personality wins me over every time.

RoverZT

Sarannewrap wrote: »

I get told quite a bit that I'm out of my boyfriends league. I must not go for looks etc etc The main thing that attracted me to him was his confidence and personality. I find him attractive, and his personality is a big part of that. If someone is great looking but has no personality what's the point. Personality wins me over every time.

Pics?:p

Liam McPoyle

RoverZT wrote: »

Pics?:p

Why would you want pics of her boyfriend? He is prolly straight.

Pawwed Rig

Sarannewrap wrote: »

I get told quite a bit that I'm out of my boyfriends league.

Wow. What kind of people tell you this? It is a particularly nasty opinion they have of your boyfriend.

cantdecide

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Wow. What kind of people tell you this? It is a particularly nasty opinion they have of your boyfriend.

I disagree. It could be said in the context of light hearted observation among groups of friends, IMO. It might be a cack-handed compliment to the bf for doing well for himself. I'm sure one partner being significantly easier on the eye than the other could lead to insecurity in some cases I think if one has already chosen to be with another, the idea of leagues, as single people perceive it, goes out the window.

Pawwed Rig

cantdecide wrote: »

It might be a cack-handed compliment to the bf for doing well for himself.

By the way she has described her bf it sounds like she has done well for herself too. It is extremely disrespectful to the poster AND her bf to imply that he isn't good enough for her or that she has made a poor choice wrt her partner. The people who are saying this should mind there own business. Relationships can be difficult enough without Iago whispering in the ear.

cantdecide

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

By the way she has described her bf it sounds like she has done well for herself too.

Certainly.

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

It is extremely disrespectful to the poster AND her bf to imply that he isn't good enough for her

I don't think that's the implication, tbh.

1ZRed

Necronos wrote: »

Why would you want pics of her boyfriend? He is prolly straight.

Give me 5 minutes with him


:pac:

hatrickpatrick

There's no such thing as "out of your league", it doesn't make sense anyway. Your own level of attractiveness doesn't influence who YOU like, why would it be any different for a girl you like?

Stereomaniac

People do have standards that are influenced by social norms. We see it in television dramas, where people "settle" for people when the one they really want is unattainable. Oh well.